I feel that sometimes when bi/multiracial (direct and generational) people - ESPECIALLY women - are brought up to believe that they must only identify as purely black, they may feel obligated somehow (out of guilt) to overcompensate for their lack of blackness gene wise by being "ultra blacks".
They may, depends on the environment.
They may find themselves spouting Afrocentric beliefs they may truly not even believe in, and limiting their dating/marriage options to only blacks (when they may deep down feel more kinship with/attraction to whites, hispanics, etc...) to avoid being labled "sellout", "passer", "white wannabe", and other such nonsense.
They may, but so will 'full Blacks' depending on where your at, whites will too, hispanics will, Italians will... definately not something limited to people of Black ancestry
But the thing is, if one considers themself to be bi/multiracial (instead of black), the guilt feelings are greatly reduced (if not eliminated) I can imagine.
I would say it depends on what context someone identifies as Black. I never had any guilt complex about it, and now I don't have any guilt complex about identifying as mixed race. Now we all know that people are people and being multiracial does not put you beyond being racist or having prejudices. We shouldn't be suprised if we find paper bags tests and blue vein tests among mixed race people.
If one is not "black" to begin with (but instead bi/multiracial), why should one care about what the "black community" thinks about the color of ones partner/spouse?
True. Societal thinking? Among the Multiracial communities including Latino americans, I don't doubt that they care what other multiraicials, Creoles, Latinos think.
If one is not "black" to begin with, why should one feel guilty/angry about some white folks feeling "more comfortable" around you than your "average black"?(I find it only natural since most people regardless of "race" feel more at ease with those they find some similarities with)
I have a problem with this, because that person is making me a part of their prejudices, that is all it is plain n simple. Nice prejudice. If an 100% Black person and a 100% White person can get together, fall in love, make love/sex. Then a person saying I'm not comfortable with a full Black, put someone partially Black or someone who doesn't look all that Black, I can feel at ease with, is a prejudice person. I personnally and so should that other mixed/multiracial person be angry with it. There are other white people and other peoples who appreciate or who will appreciate all of you including your blackness, and well as someone who is/looks 100% Black. I mean, if we tolerate those kinds os thinking from anyside, then 50 years from now we will still be dealing with this stuff. Somebody has to begin to check others on their tainted viewpoints.
Also, when the idea of similarities comes up, what does that mean? Physical similarites? many biracial(part black) don't have more similarities with whites over blacks in that area. cultural? relgious? National? Thats a problem of judging a book by it's cover. I don't think that a white person from the trailer parks would really have any similarities to a mulatto from Brooklyn, the mulatto from Brooklyn might have more similarities with a black person from the Village(NYC). Where I work, the Italians and Black hang out and look out for each other, the Italians don't have have much to do with the whites(w.a.s.p.). Remember, all that stuff is based on background(I know the news only portrays middle class well to do whites) but there are more poor, dirt poor, trailer park, 'white trash) around than the other. All whites don't have similarities beyond similar ancestral backgrounds. I mean today, black & white kids have much more similariteis and common interests than previous generations.
This is no different than a man who will disrespect a woman who may be in a higher position than he is because, he feels more at ease answering to a man. In the last few months I have come across blatant examples of this. My brother who is a supervisor of a dept had a meeting with one of their branches in Syracuse, the female supervisor under my brother in Syracuse, would ask questions to the team and there was one guy who would not answer her directly but would turn to my brother and answer him. (this is no different than that idea about being 'at ease' with someone they find similarities with). And my brother did check that guy right in front of everyone on his sexism. Also my brother(black/mixed) the guy(white) the woman(white). I guess he had more in common with my brother than the woman?
And lastly, if one is not "black" to begin with, why view your very possibly lighter skin tone, straighter hair, and ambiguous (or white) facial features, as a genetic mistake/quirk/anomaly/mask?
That's only for a minority of people. I understand what your saying though, Being lighter (even if is Brown over dark Brown) smaller lips(possibly) better hair has always been seen as a plus (for the most part) among African decendant peoples of America as well as Latin America.
I believe some undeniably black supporters of the ODR deep down may be afraid of bi/multiracial people (and "light-skinned" blacks) asking themselves these questions.
But maybe bi/multiracial people should be the ones having a diologue or even heated debate with those undeniablly black supporters of the ODR.
Then again, maybe I'm completely off. And off my rocker!lol
If [O'Brien's mother] grew up in New York City, Miami (?), Philadelphia, or any of the other metropolitan areas that have large numbers of Caribbean Hispanics, they probably would not see themselves as just black.
Yes, that would explain it, allright. For some reason, I thought that they lived in Cuba when Soledad was a kid.
I had a weird experience along those lines about 20 years ago. My client was paying me to interview job applicants for a computer-programming position. In the waiting room, whence the applicants were called for their interviews, I noticed a Nordic-looking (blonde, fair-skinned, blue-eyed) young woman who was reading copy of Ebony while she waited.
When it came her turn and she entered my office for her interview, I asked if she had an interest in Black issues. With a distinct Spanish accent, she said that she was Black. Because of her accent, I asked if she was Cuban (we were near Miami) and she said she was from Villalba (a village just a stone's throw from my own home town of Juana Diaz)! It just blew me away. I dropped the subject and proceeded to interview her. To this day, I have not gotten over my shock.
I was all ready to specificially respond to each one of the comments ya'll made regarding my last post. But I've decided not to. Instead I will explain what brought me to the feeling that there needs to be a separate identification that seperates some bi/multiracial and "light-skinned black" folks and undeniable (i.e. blacks who look like our unmixed enslaved African ancestors) blacks who have not had the very different experiences that one can have when one is of recognizable mixed race.
Growing up in the Bay Area, I was led to believe by my family - who do come in a rainbow of different colors, features, hair-textures, & body types - and close family friends, along with church elders, and other important people I grew up with, that the black community generally speaking, was a welcoming, understanding, accepting, and safe place. Because of my sheltered upper middle class upbringing, and the fact that all of my friends came from similar backgrounds, and my non exposure to blacks coming from urban ghetto environments, I thought this was mostly true.
I was taught at University that the black community, because of centuries of first hand experience, was most accepting of mixed children.
I now live in Cincinnati and it's as if my world view has been turned upside down. Sometimes, I feel like I've been sold a bill of goods.
I've lived here with my husband going on four years now and we have a toddler son together.
People talk about how serious the racial tension is in this area, and it is true to a certain extent. But the full story hasn't been told. Not only is there resentment and tension amongst the black underclass against whites (and vice versa), there is ALSO an open hatred by certain segments of the black underclass of middle class black/biracial people who are thought of as "selling out" or being "white washed".
If you are a black/biracial woman dating or married to a white man (if he's a "wigger" type you may get a "pass") and especially if you have a biracial child (most especially if your child looks white, latin, or otherwise non black) you run the risk of being verbally accosted and even harmed in some areas. Usually downtown.
I have feared for my well being, and the safety of my son (with good reason) on more than one occasion in this city when I've been without my husband. It's been directly related to the fact that it's obvious I'm not from the hood and my son is clearly half (or more) white. These incidents have happend in predominantly black areas by blacks. I do believe in God and I believe I have a Guardian Angle because we were not physically harmed when we easily could have been.
Our safety has never been threatned in the white areas (or my predominantly white neighborhood) of this city or surrounding areas. It's funny, but the genuine kindness and sense of community that I experienced growing up as a child surrounded by people of color, has been recreated here in this supposedly horribly racist city, only in white.
It truly surprises me...
And I'm not saying that there isn't a thriving black middle class here, and black folks who don't trip about "interracial relationships" and feel threatend and/or jealouse by biracial children. They DO exist. There is some real love out there that has reminded me of home, and I've felt that too.
It's just that bad experiences - especially racially related bad experiences - tend to stand out in your mind and color your opinions.
Make you think what's the use pretending that the black community as a whole is an all accepting "rainbow race" of people. Like it's purported to be by some.
Once you've seen the other side, the uglier side, the desire to separate grows.
Because the tension - and sometimes outright hatred - that can exist between "light-skinned" blacks (and first generation bi/multiracials) and dark-skinned undeniable blacks, is as great or greater than the tension between the "white race" and "black race" for sure.
I'm not naive, I know darn well that a legally and socially acceptedl bi/multiracial label will not change the world. It will not cure racism. There will still be tensions in this country amongst people and groups because of differences in appearance. And the fact that certain looks (usually more eurocentric) are more valued over others.
But, it will bring a sense of wholeness to a growing poplulation. There is a deep (and valid) need I think for groups to feel recognized and valued.
My issue with most of these articles regarding colorism in the black community, is the fact that people of mixed genetic origins (black self-identified or not) who complain of being made to feel different and not "really black" by blacks, and who consistently have white people questioning them about their ancestry or assuming their white, are always regarded as "light-skinned" blacks. Often without mentioning why (white ancestry and sometimes a lot of it) they look the way they do, and why (possibly the lingereing affects of the now defunct ODR) they consider themselves black, and ONLY black to begin with.
I feel that the constant use of the term light-skinned black, automatically assumes a cultural kinship and psychological connection between physically observable mixed heritage people and blacks that may not always exist.
Labels - self imposed or not - don't always change ones experience. The way one is viewed and treated in society. If one looks distinctly non black, yet considers themself black non the less, that is their God given right to view themselves that way. But, they will never be able to successfully convince the majority of people to see something that is not physically apparent.
Therefore, this "proving" never ends. The mistaken identification - and stress/anger/guilt that this creates - can't help but to continue.
I know I've rambled on far too long so I'll stop.
I just wanted to express that there are sometimes personal reasons why people feel the way they do concerning this black vs. biracial identity issue. I don't think anyone here is honestly trying to step on anyone else's (or groups) toes or offend. It's just that our different personal histories and experiences with "race" have shaped us and our outlook.
P.S. Jaime that is a wonderful and thoughtful letter. If you get a response, please share it with us here.
Last edited by zsana on Thu 08 Dec 2005 15:15; edited 6 times in total
If [O'Brien's mother] grew up in New York City, Miami (?), Philadelphia, or any of the other metropolitan areas that have large numbers of Caribbean Hispanics, they probably would not see themselves as just black.
Yes, that would explain it, allright. For some reason, I thought that they lived in Cuba when Soledad was a kid.
I had a weird experience along those lines about 20 years ago. My client was paying me to interview job applicants for a computer-programming position. In the waiting room, whence the applicants were called for their interviews, I noticed a Nordic-looking (blonde, fair-skinned, blue-eyed) young woman who was reading copy of Ebony while she waited.
When it came her turn and she entered my office for her interview, I asked if she had an interest in Black issues. With a distinct Spanish accent, she said that she was Black. Because of her accent, I asked if she was Cuban (we were near Miami) and she said she was from Villalba (a village just a stone's throw from my own home town of Juana Diaz)! It just blew me away. I dropped the subject and proceeded to interview her. To this day, I have not gotten over my shock.
So what made her grow up with a black identity in Cuba?
So what made her grow up with a black identity in Cuba?
Puerto Rico, not Cuba. I never found out. I was embarrased to ask. It just creeped me out. They hired her, by the way, and I moved on to another project. Never saw her again. It was just so strange. A white-looking, black-identified Puerto Rican.
I was all ready to specificially respond to each one of the comments ya'll made regarding my last post. But I've decided not to. Instead I will explain what brought me to the feeling that there needs to be a separate identification that seperates some bi/multiracial and "light-skinned black" folks and undeniable (i.e. blacks who look like our unmixed enslaved African ancestors)
Zsana, I support you fully, thanks for expaining your life. But my responses weren't really against what you were saying. I do believe there should be a seperate identification in 2005 for bi/multiracial & generationally mixed folks of black lineage.
blacks who have not had the very different experiences that one can have when one is of recognizable mixed race.
But this identity should not be fostered out of pain nor hateful experiences etc etc because everyone didn't go thru those things. Also there are people who are not so obviously mixed race that celebrate and may identify as mixed, or have explored that idea. Many of us (even mixed people) still have and idea of what a mixed/multiracial person is supposed to look like. And the biggest thing is skin color, if a person is dark skinned that seems to lessen their mixedness the whiter they are the more mixed we perceived them to be. Is darker brown biracial actress Rachel True less mixed than whiter skinned Jennifer Beals... Is Denzel Washington racially or ethnically the same as Wesley Snipes...
Growing up in the Bay Area, I was led to believe by my family - who do come in a rainbow of different colors, features, hair-textures, & body types - and close family friends, along with church elders, and other important people I grew up with, that the black community generally speaking, was a welcoming, understanding, accepting, and safe place.
Never throw away your upbring, what your community taught you was just as or more real than they place you are now. Unless it's negative. You should be solidified in it, because you can affect someone positively who may not have come up that way... You can change someone who may be a possible threat. I really do believe that Zsana.
Because of my sheltered upper middle class upbringing, and the fact that all of my friends came from similar backgrounds, and my non exposure to blacks coming from urban ghetto environments, I thought this was mostly true.
That doesn't sound too sheltered to me, that was normal everyday life. Remember the noise that arose during the Cosby Show era, from those who said that wasn't real 'black' life? Then there were even more who ran home every Thursday to make sure they caught the Cosby Show and A Different World, because they said this reflects their life? Who was right? The latter was right, the former was partially right, but ultimately wrong is saying that wasn't real at all.
I was taught at University that the black community, because of centuries of first hand experience, was most accepting of mixed children.
In many places it is, in a lot of those place its to the point where they may be treated better than non mixed black folks
I now live in Cincinnati and it's as if my world view has been turned upside down. Sometimes, I feel like I've been sold a bill of goods.
Again, America (the world) is too diverse. Zsana a friend of mine successful female generationally mixed bought a house in a predominate white suburb in Pennsylvania, she came home that first week of living there to find a burning cross on her porch. That never happened where she came from. That didn't make her throw away her previous experiences with whites. Even though it shook her up as your experience did for you. And it normal. She left that place. I surrounded myself with multiethnic group of friends: Italian Puerto Rican Black Biracial Mixed Native American White for various reasons along with just pure friendship. But one beautiful summer day walk home from work a car full of white dudes drives by and calls me a nigger. It shook me up, that word being connected with violence. But my upbringing and my circle of friends eventually settled me again. My upbring is more real that the negative things that have happened to me.
I've lived here with my husband going on four years now and we have a toddler son together.
People talk about how serious the racial tension is in this area, and it is true to a certain extent. But the full story hasn't been told. Not only is there resentment and tension amongst the black underclass against whites (and vice versa), there is ALSO an open hatred by certain segments of the black underclass of middle class black/biracial people who are thought of as "selling out" or being "white washed".
If you are a black/biracial woman dating or married to a white man (if he's a "wigger" type you may get a "pass") and especially if you have a biracial child (most especially if your child looks white, latin, or otherwise non black) you run the risk of being verbally accosted and even harmed in some areas. Usually downtown.
I have feared for my well being, and the safety of my son (with good reason) on more than one occasion in this city when I've been without my husband. It's been directly related to the fact that it's obvious I'm not from the hood and my son is clearly half (or more) white. These incidents have happend in predominantly black areas by blacks. I do believe in God and I believe I have a Guardian Angle because we were not physically harmed when we easily could have been.
Our safety has never been threatned in the white areas (or my predominantly white neighborhood) of this city or surrounding areas. It's funny, but the genuine kindness and sense of community that I experienced growing up as a child surrounded by people of color, has been recreated here in this supposedly horribly racist city, only in white.
It truly surprises me...
And I'm not saying that there isn't a thriving black middle class here, and black folks who don't trip about "interracial relationships" and feel threatend and/or jealouse by biracial children. They DO exist. There is some real love out there that has reminded me of home, and I've felt that too.
It's just that bad experiences - especially racially related bad experiences - tend to stand out in your mind and color your opinions.
Ok, now as people who are breaking out of the box or racial identity as we know it in America. How do we create a new identity without it being tainted with prejudice of our own. Because if we get an auditorium of black & other biracials multiracials mixed people, some will have experienced different levels of prejudice from black, some from whites and possibly other ethnic groups. Some will have some hurtful things experienced from whites, some from blacks, some from other mixed people. How do we not allow another 'generation' of mixed people not pass on prejudices and tragic views of themselves in light of parts of their racial heritages?
Make you think what's the use pretending that the black community as a whole is an all accepting "rainbow race" of people. Like it's purported to be by some.
I really do judge racial situations by the individual and take into account the area. And as a safe guard I always exalt good experiences and people over the bad even if it is 3 to 1
Once you've seen the other side, the uglier side, the desire to separate grows.
Because the tension - and sometimes outright hatred - that can exist between "light-skinned" blacks (and first generation bi/multiracials) and dark-skinned undeniable blacks, is as great or greater than the tension between the "white race" and "black race" for sure.
In Cincinnati most likely, but that can't be applied to everywhere.
I'm not naive, I know darn well that a legally and socially acceptedl bi/multiracial label will not change the world. It will not cure racism. There will still be tensions in this country amongst people and groups because of differences in appearance. And the fact that certain looks (usually more eurocentric) are more valued over others.
But, it will bring a sense of wholeness to a growing poplulation. There is a deep (and valid) need I think for groups to feel recognized and valued.
There is no arguement there. But if another identity is created out of bad experiences that how soon does a multiracial NOI or KKK evolve
My issue with most of these articles regarding colorism in the black community, is the fact that people of mixed genetic origins (black self-identified or not) who complain of being made to feel different and not "really black" by blacks, and who consistently have white people questioning them about their ancestry or assuming their white, are always regarded as "light-skinned" blacks. Often without mentioning why (white ancestry and sometimes a lot of it) they look the way they do, and why (possibly the lingereing affects of the now defunct ODR) they consider themselves black, and ONLY black to begin with.
I feel that the constant use of the term light-skinned black, automatically assumes a cultural kinship and psychological connection between physically observable mixed heritage people and blacks that may not always exist.
I agree, and will add that there is no 1 'black' identity or cultural kinship.
Labels - self imposed or not - don't always change ones experience. The way one is viewed and treated in society. If one looks distinctly non black, yet considers themself black non the less, that is their God given right to view themselves that way. But, they will never be able to successfully convince the majority of people to see something that is not physically apparent.
True, but also many people see that Black identity as non-physical but social or political or cultural.
Therefore, this "proving" never ends. The mistaken identification - and stress/anger/guilt that this creates - can't help but to continue.
I know I've rambled on far too long so I'll stop.
I just wanted to express that there are sometimes personal reasons why people feel the way they do concerning this black vs. biracial identity issue. I don't think anyone here is honestly trying to step on anyone else's (or groups) toes or offend. It's just that our different personal histories and experiences with "race" have shaped us and our outlook.
P.S. Jaime that is a wonderful and thoughtful letter. If you get a response, please share it with us here.
Last edited by gemini072 on Thu 08 Dec 2005 17:46; edited 1 time in total
Thank you for your deep and understanding response to my last message.
You realize there was no malice meant in my words.
What I read from you, made me think and seriously reflect. And I can only agree with the points you made.
Deep down I know what you're saying is true. It's just that sometimes it's hard to remember these things while in the heat of the moment, or a particularly painful memory.
Quote:
I really do judge racial situations by the individual and take into account the area. And as a safe guard I always exalt good experiences and people over the bad even if it is 3 to 1
As hard as it is to do, we must always strive to do just this.
So what made her grow up with a black identity in Cuba?
Puerto Rico, not Cuba. I never found out. I was embarrased to ask. It just creeped me out. They hired her, by the way, and I moved on to another project. Never saw her again. It was just so strange. A white-looking, black-identified Puerto Rican.
She must have moved to the US early. Puerto Ricans in NY especially are fed the one drop rule a lot.
Quote:
Who is Black?
By Rosa Clemente
-Guest Columnist-
Updated Jul 10, 2001, 11:21 am Refer this article
Print page
Yesterday, an interesting thing happened to me. I was told I am not Black.
The kicker for me was when my friend stated that the island of Puerto Rico was not a part of the African Diaspora. I wanted to go back to the old skool playground days and yell: “You said what about my momma?!” But after speaking to several friends, I found out that many Black Americans and Latinos agree with him. The miseducation of the Negro is still in effect!
I am so tired of having to prove to others that I am Black, that my peoples are from the Motherland, that Puerto Rico, along with Cuba, Panama and the Dominican Republic, are part of the African Diaspora. Do we forget that the slave ships dropped off our people all over the world, hence the word Diaspora?
The Atlantic slave trade brought Africans to Puerto Rico in the early 1500s. Some of the first slave rebellions took place on the island of Puerto Rico. Until 1846, Africanos on the island had to carry a libreta to move around the island, like the passbook system in apartheid South Africa. In Puerto Rico, you will find large communities of descendants of the Yoruba, Bambara, Wolof and Mandingo people. Puerto Rican culture is inherently African culture.
There are hundreds of books that will inform you, but I do not need to read book after book to legitimize this thesis. All I need to do is go to Puerto Rico and look all around me. Damn, all I really have to do is look in the mirror every day.
I am often asked what I am—usually by Blacks who are lighter than me and by Latinos/as who are darker than me. To answer the $64,000 question, I am a Black Boricua, Black Rican, Puertorique'a! Almost always I am questioned about why I choose to call myself Black over Latina, Spanish, Hispanic. Let me break it down.
I am not Spanish. Spanish is just another language I speak. I am not a Hispanic. My ancestors are not descendants of Spain, but descendants of Africa. I define my existence by race and land. (Borinken is the indigenous name of the island of Puerto Rico.)
Being Latino is not a cultural identity but rather a political one. Being Puerto Rican is not a racial identity, but rather a cultural and national one. Being Black is my racial identity. Why do I have to consistently explain this to those who are so-called conscious? Is it because they have a problem with their identity? Why is it so bad to assert who I am, for me to big-up my Africanness?
My Blackness is one of the greatest powers I have. We live in a society that devalues Blackness all the time. I will not be devalued as a human being, as a child of the Supreme Creator.
Although many of us in activist circles are enlightened, many of us have baggage that we must deal with. So many times I am asked why many Boricuas refuse to affirm their Blackness. I attribute this denial to the ever-rampant anti-Black sentiment in America and throughout the world, but I will not use this as an excuse. Often Puerto Ricans who assert our Blackness are not only outcast by Latinos who identify more with their Spanish Conqueror than their African ancestors, but we are also shunned by Black Americans who do not see us as Black.
Nelly Fuller, a great Black sociologist, stated: “Until one understands the system of White supremacy, anything and everything else will confuse you.” Divide and conquer still applies.
Listen people: Being Black is not just skin color, nor is it synonymous with Black Americans. To assert who I am is the most liberating and revolutionary thing I can ever do. Being a Black Puerto Rican encompasses me racially, ethically and most importantly, gives me a homeland to refer to.
So I have come to this conclusion: I am whatever I say I am! (Thank you, Rakim.)
(Rosa Clemente is the youth organizer for the F.R.E.E. Youth Empowerment Program of Central Brooklyn Partnership. She is also an organizer with Malcolm X Grassroots Movement and the co-host of WBAI’s “Where We Live” public affairs program.)
Joined: 03 Jun 2005 {Posts: 270 } Location: California
Posted: Thu 08 Dec 2005 21:54 Post subject:
Interesting.
I tend to think that my new comfortableness with a separate category for the formerly 'light-skinned black' also has to do with experiences. I was also raised in Ca, but in Southern Ca, where I was constantly assailed for not being 'black enough' or called 'white nigger' by whites, blacks, and mexicans (when they realized I was not 'spanish').
But although we may share some history with Blacks in America, some of us also had free colored relatives, too! On my mother's side, they were free for many generations!
Unfortunately, we were raised as 'light-skinned blacks' (although my Aryan-looking grandmother despided the term 'black'...her generation (b. 1899) used 'colored' (us) or 'negro' because, she told me, 'black' was insulting.
I'm now in 'liberal' Northern California, but the attitudes of race and ethnicity have not really changed. I have been called 'nigger'/ 'white nigger' many more times here in CA than I *ever* was during those many summers I spent in the deep South with my grandparents!
I was always most comfortable with other multi-gens, as we shared the same experiences, but they were few and far between in my home town.
I don't dislike blacks, but I have found to be most uncomfortable with them due to color issues. Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of empathy for black people, I am a person of African descent, too. Unless they are of a certain class of people, I avoid them like the plague. And unless I am with my fiance (Euro-multi gen), I am actively accosted & harassed by black men who are nowhere near gentlemen.
My last BF was caucasian, and when I was with him, wore my hair straight (instead of curly) and found that I was 'passing'. I had become invisible, even to blacks. But when that drop of black blood became known, it was obvious that I was looked at differently, especially by white women. Like I had a bit of inferiority.
In my small corner of the world, I've found that it was more acceptable for dark black women to be with white men than bi-racial/ multi-gens. I can not count how many times people (of all ethnic groups) comment on it.
I think each one of my siblings would have a different view, too. And I think it is often harder on women because of dating/ marriage competition issues.
I've gone on too long. Race/ ethnicity is a really difficult topic for me. But I am now pro-separation. I've come a long way. And I'm glad I found this site.
And unless I am with my fiance (Euro-multi gen), I am actively accosted & harassed by black men who are nowhere near gentlemen.
Been there... Happend a lot (and scared the hell out of me) before we moved to our new neighborhood.
Quote:
In my small corner of the world, I've found that it was more acceptable for dark black women to be with white men than bi-racial/ multi-gens. I can not count how many times people (of all ethnic groups) comment on it.
This is true especially in the black community I believe. And, I'll tell you why I think this is the case. As crude and ugly as it may sound, dark-skinned stereotypically West African featured women are often times less valued than biracial/light-skinned (and this term covers a wide range depending on who is doing the perceiving) black women. Therefore, it is not considered as much of a loss (unless the dark-skinned woman is considered to be extremely attractive) when an indisputable black woman dates/marries out. But, it most certainly is considered a threat/problem by some when we do. Then, it's thought of by the haters out there to be a loss.
You know what I also think may be behind this feeling? The fact that when biracial/light-skinned black (multigenerationaly mixed) women have biracial children by white men, they tend to be more whiter/lighter/stereotypically mixed looking (of course there are rare exceptions and I've seen them) than those who's mothers are dark-skinned or "pure" black.
I think the feeling may be, "well at least the dark womans future child will still be considered one of us". But, the lighter skinned womans child may be able to "pass". Therefore, lessening the black (or at least black identified) population.
When it comes to other non black communities feeling this way, I think another emotion may be at work.
The black and white media consistently shows (with few exceptions) the pairings of brown/light-skinned women with undeniably black men. As if no other combinations exists. Hell, you hardly ever see a biracial/light-skinned black couple together for that matter.
Thus, people (especially heavy television viewers) get used to thinking this is "normal" and the preferred choice for all light-skinned black/biracial women. Not realizing that people are individuals with different taste and preferences.
Plus, when you actually DO see "interracial" relationships between light-skinned black/biracial women and white men in the media, like in Soap Operas or the movie "Feast of All Saints" - and a child is produced from this union - it's almost always a black looking biracial child.
Sometimes, the child doesn't even look biracial at all. (I think Frank mentioned a "Law & Order" episode once when a white woman had a biracial mans child and it came out pitch black.)
But in real life, the children are almost never black appearanced. Quite the opposite. And this real life situation - especially when it is personally encountered - scares/upsets those white racist (and I'm including white racist women) out there who believe the one unique and cherishable thing they've got going, is the ability to produce a white skinned, straight haired, blonde and/or blue eyed child. If light-skinned black/biracial women are ALSO able to produce this look in their offspring (and it most certainly can and does happen) it hypothetically and psychologically creates an equality between light-skinned black/biracial women and "pure" white women.
It's 2005 and things have certainly changed in this country. However, there are still some old-school thinking people out there, who don't want this level of (perceived or actual) equality.
Therefore, when you really look at, light-skinned black/biracial women with black men as opposed to white men (and the heavy promotion of this in all popular media outlets) "keeps the peace" for both the black and white community.
Quote:
I'm now in 'liberal' Northern California, but the attitudes of race and ethnicity have not really changed. I have been called 'nigger'/ 'white nigger' many more times here in CA than I *ever* was during those many summers I spent in the deep South with my grandparents!
This is a damn shame. There is truly no Shrangala out there. That's for sure. I have some crazy Bay Area stories too...
And unless I am with my fiance (Euro-multi gen), I am actively accosted & harassed by black men who are nowhere near gentlemen.
Been there... Happend a lot (and scared the hell out of me) before we moved to our new neighborhood.
Quote:
In my small corner of the world, I've found that it was more acceptable for dark black women to be with white men than bi-racial/ multi-gens. I can not count how many times people (of all ethnic groups) comment on it.
This is true especially in the black community I believe. And, I'll tell you why I think this is the case. As crude and ugly as it may sound, dark-skinned stereotypically West African featured women are often times less valued than biracial/light-skinned (and this term covers a wide range depending on who is doing the perceiving) black women. Therefore, it is not considered as much of a loss (unless the dark-skinned woman is considered to be extremely attractive) when an indisputable black woman dates/marries out. But, it most certainly is considered a threat/problem by some when we do. Then, it's thought of by the haters out there to be a loss.
lol true
You know what I also think may be behind this feeling? The fact that when biracial/light-skinned black (multigenerationaly mixed) women have biracial children by white men, they tend to be more whiter/lighter/stereotypically mixed looking (of course there are rare exceptions and I've seen them) than those who's mothers are dark-skinned or "pure" black.
I think the feeling may be, "well at least the dark womans future child will still be considered one of us". But, the lighter skinned womans child may be able to "pass". Therefore, lessening the black (or at least black identified) population.
When it comes to other non black communities feeling this way, I think another emotion may be at work.
The black and white media consistently shows (with few exceptions) the pairings of brown/light-skinned women with undeniably black men. As if no other combinations exists. Hell, you hardly ever see a biracial/light-skinned black couple together for that matter.
True, again, I think this is more so a recent media constant image. Meaning, in the 80's mixed, light, tan, very fair, biracial men were more visible. Something about the 80's was the Mixed era coming out of the 70's. Somewear in the 90's darker skinned men were represented more. I think a lot of this is white based ideas of attraction. Darker skinned men have always been more 'tabooishly appealing' and so have lighterbrown, mixed, very fair women.
Thus, people (especially heavy television viewers) get used to thinking this is "normal" and the preferred choice for all light-skinned black/biracial women. Not realizing that people are individuals with different taste and preferences.
Plus, when you actually DO see "interracial" relationships between light-skinned black/biracial women and white men in the media, like in Soap Operas or the movie "Feast of All Saints" - and a child is produced from this union - it's almost always a black looking biracial child.
Right, and they still play on the forbidden aspect of it, the tragic part. I remember getting into the Young and the Restless some years ago with my mother. An obviously very fair skinned biracial woman became involved with another mixed married man. She ended up being put aside and ended up dating another biracial actor(Shemar Moore) brother in law to Victoria Rowells character Drucilla. then got a call from a white lover from her past to be told he had Aids, she ended up with it, and passed it to the married man. So the small colored community on the show still couldn't escape the Aids epidemic...
Sometimes, the child doesn't even look biracial at all. (I think Frank mentioned a "Law & Order" episode once when a white woman had a biracial mans child and it came out pitch black.)
Another white originated taboo. The backlash of a child coming out blacker or more visibly blacker than the mixed parent. Another trend I see in media images is dark haired parents with white blond/blond blue eyed children. The more cherished look. One blatantly commercial I remember was 2 very 'swarthy' Mediterranean looking, black haired, dark eyed parents driving a mini van with 2 children-girl and boy who look like the just came from the highest regions of Norway. The kids were very pale in color, blue eyes and white blond hair
But in real life, the children are almost never black appearanced. Quite the opposite. And this real life situation - especially when it is personally encountered - scares/upsets those white racist (and I'm including white racist women) out there who believe the one unique and cherishable thing they've got going, is the ability to produce a white skinned, straight haired, blonde and/or blue eyed child. If light-skinned black/biracial women are ALSO able to produce this look in their offspring (and it most certainly can and does happen) it hypothetically and psychologically creates an equality between light-skinned black/biracial women and "pure" white women.
It's 2005 and things have certainly changed in this country. However, there are still some old-school thinking people out there, who don't want this level of (perceived or actual) equality.
It's probably not as much threat to equality as it's a threat to their 'white class, their assumed white priviledge and more than anything their white purity'
Therefore, when you really look at, light-skinned black/biracial women with black men as opposed to white men (and the heavy promotion of this in all popular media outlets) "keeps the peace" for both the black and white community.
Quote:
I'm now in 'liberal' Northern California, but the attitudes of race and ethnicity have not really changed. I have been called 'nigger'/ 'white nigger' many more times here in CA than I *ever* was during those many summers I spent in the deep South with my grandparents!
This is a damn shame. There is truly no Shrangala out there. That's for sure. I have some crazy Bay Area stories too...
Does anyone remember when the movie "Corrina Corrina" came out?
Editorial Reviews
Amazon.com essential video
Ray Liotta plays a 1950s jingle composer whose wife dies, leaving him to raise their grieving young daughter (Tina Majorino) alone. Dad hires an African-American housekeeper (Whoopi Goldberg), who helps fill the gap in the child's life--and then Dad's life--and soon an interracial relationship crossing the social mores of the era is underway. Written and directed by Jessie Nelson, the film is a spot-on recreation of '50s suburbia without gratuitous kitsch. Liotta is perfect as a working man of the day, given to white shirts and narrow ties; Goldberg gives one of her finest performances as the levelheaded Corrina; and little Majorino is heartbreakingly effective. But the film entirely bears the stamp of one person, and that's Nelson, who has a wonderfully witty eye and a sophisticated but sensitive approach to the crosscurrents of emotion at play in this story. --Tom Keogh
No one to my knowledge raised a stink about it. Not one peep. Frankly, no one gave a damn...
Now compare this to the reaction to Halle Berry's performance in "Monster's Ball".
Tagline: A lifetime of change can happen in a single moment.
Plot Outline: After a family tragedy, a racist prison guard reexamines his attitudes while falling in love with the African American wife of the last prisoner he executed.
Plot Synopsis: Set in the Southern United States, 'Monster's Ball' is a tale of a racist white man, Hank (played by Billy Bob Thornton), who falls in love with a black woman named Leticia (Halle Berry). Ironically Hank is a prison guard working on Death Row who executed Leticia's husband (Sean Combs). Hank and Leticia's interracial affair leads to confusion and new ideas for the two unlikely lovers.
There was a HELL of a lot of controversy associated with it. Why? Well, I think part of it was because it was Halle Berry (valued) and Billy Bob Thornton.
Personally, I thought it was a good film. And, I didn't find anything debasing about it. It was just an interesting story to me. No money was exchanged between Halle Berry and Billy Bob, so how in the hell could their relationship be viewed as an act of prostitution? What utter B.S.
Check out these articles related to the film...
Quote:
"I simply find the premise of 'Monster's Ball,' in which a character played by one of our most prized beauties, falls in love with a racist white prison guard who led her husband to his execution, deliberately insulting," said Miles Willis of Houston. "With its profanely incongruous and utterly implausible scenario, the plot of this film is a sneering, in-your-face taunt to all black men. Imagine the seething indignation that a Jewish man might feel while watching a story in which the widow of a Nazi concentration camp victim has an intimate relationship with the SS officer that shoved her husband into one of those ovens at Auschwitz!"
"I wasn't going to be a prostitute on film," Bassett said when asked by Newsweek why she had turned down the role. "I couldn't do that because it's such a stereotype about black women and sexuality.
I must say, I'm very curious to see the reaction "Something New" generates.
A romantic comedy about finding love when and where it's least expected. Kenya (Sanaa Lathan) is a beautiful career woman who has achieved great professional success but still yearns for a fulfilling personal life. Looking for that "perfect man," she even has a checklist at the ready. When she's set up on a blind date with Brian (Simon Baker), a sexy and free-spirited landscaper who's not exactly what she'd pictured for herself, Kenya is not amuzed... but she does need help fixing up the yard of her new house. An emotional and often hilarious movie about following your heart – no matter where it takes you.
http://www.focusfeatures.com/viewer.php?f=something_new&c=trailer&ext=mov&w=480&h=270
Does anyone remember when the movie "Corrina Corrina" came out?
Editorial Reviews
Amazon.com essential video
Ray Liotta plays a 1950s jingle composer whose wife dies, leaving him to raise their grieving young daughter (Tina Majorino) alone. Dad hires an African-American housekeeper (Whoopi Goldberg), who helps fill the gap in the child's life--and then Dad's life--and soon an interracial relationship crossing the social mores of the era is underway. Written and directed by Jessie Nelson, the film is a spot-on recreation of '50s suburbia without gratuitous kitsch. Liotta is perfect as a working man of the day, given to white shirts and narrow ties; Goldberg gives one of her finest performances as the levelheaded Corrina; and little Majorino is heartbreakingly effective. But the film entirely bears the stamp of one person, and that's Nelson, who has a wonderfully witty eye and a sophisticated but sensitive approach to the crosscurrents of emotion at play in this story. --Tom Keogh
No one to my knowledge raised a stink about it. Not one peep. Frankly, no one gave a damn...
Zsana, I actually don't even remember this movie at all. I wonder if that is the reason? Or maybe they are so familiar with Woopie dating Jewish men that for her to play an onscreen 'comedic' romance with an Italian man doesn't bother them much? If it was a serious romance then maybe there would be a different reaction? I also find that in more Independant films coming out that all kinds of cross ethnic romances are created. Mixed as well as...
Now, have you noticed how asexual leading man Denzel Washington is in his movies? In the movie Fallen I expected him to have some kind of intimate moment with the Italian lady he was helping...
Now compare this to the reaction to Halle Berry's performance in "Monster's Ball".
I think with this movie there is also the element of the guy being a racist, as well as the graphic sexual content. To be honest, when I saw it, it was hard to watch, partially because of that, as well as the extent of sex/nudity. I think her character in Losing Isaah, was a better one for winning the award.
Tagline: A lifetime of change can happen in a single moment.
Plot Outline: After a family tragedy, a racist prison guard reexamines his attitudes while falling in love with the African American wife of the last prisoner he executed.
Plot Synopsis: Set in the Southern United States, 'Monster's Ball' is a tale of a racist white man, Hank (played by Billy Bob Thornton), who falls in love with a black woman named Leticia (Halle Berry). Ironically Hank is a prison guard working on Death Row who executed Leticia's husband (Sean Combs). Hank and Leticia's interracial affair leads to confusion and new ideas for the two unlikely lovers.
There was a HELL of a lot of controversy associated with it. Why? Well, I think part of it was because it was Halle Berry (valued) and Billy Bob Thornton.
Personally, I thought it was a good film. And, I didn't find anything debasing about it. It was just an interesting story to me. No money was exchanged between Halle Berry and Billy Bob, so how in the hell could their relationship be viewed as an act of prostitution? What utter B.S.
Check out these articles related to the film...
Quote:
"I simply find the premise of 'Monster's Ball,' in which a character played by one of our most prized beauties, falls in love with a racist white prison guard who led her husband to his execution, deliberately insulting," said Miles Willis of Houston. "With its profanely incongruous and utterly implausible scenario, the plot of this film is a sneering, in-your-face taunt to all black men. Imagine the seething indignation that a Jewish man might feel while watching a story in which the widow of a Nazi concentration camp victim has an intimate relationship with the SS officer that shoved her husband into one of those ovens at Auschwitz!"
"I wasn't going to be a prostitute on film," Bassett said when asked by Newsweek why she had turned down the role. "I couldn't do that because it's such a stereotype about black women and sexuality.
I must say, I'm very curious to see the reaction "Something New" generates.
A romantic comedy about finding love when and where it's least expected. Kenya (Sanaa Lathan) is a beautiful career woman who has achieved great professional success but still yearns for a fulfilling personal life. Looking for that "perfect man," she even has a checklist at the ready. When she's set up on a blind date with Brian (Simon Baker), a sexy and free-spirited landscaper who's not exactly what she'd pictured for herself, Kenya is not amuzed... but she does need help fixing up the yard of her new house. An emotional and often hilarious movie about following your heart – no matter where it takes you.
http://www.focusfeatures.com/viewer.php?f=something_new&c=trailer&ext=mov&w=480&h=270
I tend to think that my new comfortableness with a separate category for the formerly 'light-skinned black' also has to do with experiences. I was also raised in Ca, but in Southern Ca, where I was constantly assailed for not being 'black enough' or called 'white nigger' by whites, blacks, and mexicans (when they realized I was not 'spanish').
Isn't it interesting how people have images and ideas of how you should sound and live, before knowing anything about you?
I know a girl who, by the books would not be considered mixed. Dark skinned smoothed skin petite and her who mannerisms speach bodylanguage is like a blond white girl from the valley.
But although we may share some history with Blacks in America, some of us also had free colored relatives, too! On my mother's side, they were free for many generations!
On my fathers side there were free blacks who came by the way of France to America.
It's true that there were freed slaves or free born of Negre' as well as Mulatto origins
Unfortunately, we were raised as 'light-skinned blacks' (although my Aryan-looking grandmother despided the term 'black'...her generation (b. 1899) used 'colored' (us) or 'negro' because, she told me, 'black' was insulting.
I'm now in 'liberal' Northern California, but the attitudes of race and ethnicity have not really changed. I have been called 'nigger'/ 'white nigger' many more times here in CA than I *ever* was during those many summers I spent in the deep South with my grandparents!
I was always most comfortable with other multi-gens, as we shared the same experiences, but they were few and far between in my home town.
I don't dislike blacks, but I have found to be most uncomfortable with them due to color issues. Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of empathy for black people, I am a person of African descent, too. Unless they are of a certain class of people, I avoid them like the plague.
I understand what your saying. I find that nice space among African descendant people who are, shall I say hip/urban/boho/hippie/artist combination. I know a lot of them mixed as well as non-mixed.
And unless I am with my fiance (Euro-multi gen), I am actively accosted & harassed by black men who are nowhere near gentlemen.
My last BF was caucasian, and when I was with him, wore my hair straight (instead of curly) and found that I was 'passing'. I had become invisible, even to blacks. But when that drop of black blood became known, it was obvious that I was looked at differently, especially by white women. Like I had a bit of inferiority.
In my small corner of the world, I've found that it was more acceptable for dark black women to be with white men than bi-racial/ multi-gens. I can not count how many times people (of all ethnic groups) comment on it.
I think each one of my siblings would have a different view, too. And I think it is often harder on women because of dating/ marriage competition issues.
I agree
I've gone on too long. Race/ ethnicity is a really difficult topic for me. But I am now pro-separation. I've come a long way. And I'm glad I found this site.
I actually don't even remember ["Corrina Corrina"] at all.
That is a shame. It was a cute little romantic comedy, which Mary Lee and I enjoyed very much. To be honest, I do not recall that their ethnic differences were even explicitly part of the plot. (Any more than, say, Diesel's ethnicity was important in "Riddick".)
gemini072 wrote:
I think with this [Monster's Ball]movie there is also the element of the guy being a racist, as well as the graphic sexual content. To be honest, when I saw it, it was hard to watch, partially because of that, as well as the extent of sex/nudity.
I agree, although I think that it was Peter Boyle's character who was the racist, not his son, Billy Bob Thornton's character. But the sex was much too graphic for us to watch comfortably. It was terribly distracting from the basically straightforward and nice plot.
I actually don't even remember ["Corrina Corrina"] at all.
That is a shame. It was a cute little romantic comedy, which Mary Lee and I enjoyed very much. To be honest, I do not recall that their ethnic differences were even explicitly part of the plot. (Any more than, say, Diesel's ethnicity was important in "Riddick".)
No their ethnic differences probably weren't. I mean that people were so familiar with Whoopi dating Jewish men that, plus her comedic career would make it not so significant. Plus that fact that it probably wasn't a big film to begin with. So was there romantic 'tensions' between them or a full romance with kissing and hugging?
gemini072 wrote:
I think with this [Monster's Ball]movie there is also the element of the guy being a racist, as well as the graphic sexual content. To be honest, when I saw it, it was hard to watch, partially because of that, as well as the extent of sex/nudity.
I agree, although I think that it was Peter Boyle's character who was the racist, not his son, Billy Bob Thornton's character. But the sex was much too graphic for us to watch comfortably. It was terribly distracting from the basically straightforward and nice plot.
Oh right. Yes, it would have been really hard for me to watch anyone especially an actress I like playing a role like that. It was almost pornographic to me.
Another possibility....She has spent a considerable time in the U.S., outside of an area with a substantial Caribbean Latino population-college in Baltimore, etc., and as a person who has a phenotype that falls within the range of what we in the U.S. see as black-looking, over time, she simply considered herself black (and was possibly considered black by others) and eventually embraced American conceptions of race. Many immigrants do. Many people in my family have done the same thing.
All True.
This is a small pic but I personally own this issue.
Estella O'brien would most likely be considered black in Cuba as well I believe. She is a dark medium brown skinned woman with identifiable black features and most importantly she has afro-textured hair that she wears in a short (and very becoming) Afro.
It's been my experience (at least with women) that people of color - of African & partial African descent - from Latin American cultures, that claim an ethnic identity over a racial one, tend to have stereotypically "mixed hair" i.e. coarse yet not nappy, very curly, or frizzy/wavy looking hair. OR, they just have their kinky hair fully relaxed and/or wear weaves/wigs.
Estella does not relax her natural hair which gives her an even more black social (and probably personal) identity.
Quote:
it isn't possible, she contended, "to over-dramatize" what they went through. Her parents met as students at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore. At the time, racism was so rabid that interracial marriage was banned outright in the city. When O'Brien's parents were dating, restaurants would not serve them together.
"They were doing stuff that for the time was very risky - socially risky and risky to their own physical safety. And they decided they were going to go ahead and get married and have six kids," their daughter recalled.
Experiencing ugly and open racial discrimination so early in ones life can't help but to solidify (for many) ones identity. In this case racial. Estella's treatment was no different than any other identifiably black Americans treatment in Balitmore at that time. She could not escape Americas conception of race.
This is a small pic but I personally own this issue.
That is a great picture! It is comparable to that grainy Black-and-White photo of the three generations of Khoisan/European intermarriage that we posted in the admixture forum. Better yet, since it has already been published, it will not violate anyone's privacy to post it again (with attribution, of course). Do you have, or is there any way that you could get, a larger picture of the magazine cover?
I think it's a great photo as well. I've searched the net and haven't been able to find a larger image. However, since I do own this issue, I can scan it and create a larger JPEG. Then, I'll email it to you.
I can do this when I return from vacation, as I'm supposed to be ironing and getting clothes organized right this very minute! Have to make the most of my time when the babies asleep...
I agree, it is indeed comparable to that three generations of Khoisan/European intermarriage photo you posted a while back.
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So was there romantic 'tensions' between them or a full romance with kissing and hugging?