Posted: Wed 14 Dec 2005 17:04 Post subject: Maria (Sonia Manzano) from Sesame Street
Frank,
I have a question regarding gene flow/heredity in the Puerto Rican Community.
Being a stay at home mom with a toddler, Sesame Street is often on in the background. There's a charecter on the show named Maria who's been on for at least 20 years.
Quote:
“I am proud to be a Latina because it means being part of a huge, diverse family that consists of, to name a few, fifth generation Mexicans, first generation Dominicans, third generation Cubans, in addition to second generation Puerto Ricans, because that is what I am. I love being bilingual because speaking two languages makes speaking twice as nice.”
Sonia Manzano
She has always been one of my favorites and I remember her from when I was a little girl. She always reminded me of my mom, and still does.
They could be twins. Same beautiful smile... The only difference is Maria's hair is straight, while my mom presses hers with a hot comb for easier manageability.(She has thick, frizzy/wavy hair like a Samoan)
Well, I remember an episode where Sonia Manzano was with her actual family. Her parents, siblings, cousins, etc... Everyone looked Spaniard to my surprise. I just knew someone somewhere was going to look black (or at least biracial) but it wasn't the case. No one even looked like they had any Taino Indian ancestry. They were all keen featured and light skinned whereas Ms. Manzano is clearly brown with soft/rounded features.
Which, made me think of the whole so called "throwback child" theory. Could it be that Ms. Manzano's parents both have very very distant African ancestry (unknown even?) that showed up generations later in Sonia?
If so, is this common?
I remember a South African case like this. A white couple (both of unknown mixed ancestry) having a physically noticble mixed ("colored") looking child. This daughter grew up and gave birth to extremely dark African looking babies.
The case was quite remarkable...
Last edited by zsana on Fri 16 Dec 2005 20:52; edited 1 time in total
Which, made me think of the whole so called "throwback child" theory. Could it be that Ms. Manzano's parents both have very very distant African ancestry (unknown even?) that showed up generations later in Sonia? If so, is this common? I remember a South African case like this. A white couple (both of unknown mixed ancestry) having a physically noticeable mixed ("colored") looking child. This daughter grew up and gave birth to an extremely dark African looking baby.
Four thoughts come to mind.
First, it is virtually certain that her parents had African ancestry if their forbears came from Spain. The Almoravid Empire stretched from Dakar to Barcelona and its successors ruled Spain for many centuries. In addition, Spain and Portugal assimilated about 100,000 African slaves who were imported in the 1500s. As William and I have discussed at length, today's Spaniards have about 5 percent sub-Saharan DNA. Since this DNA is dispersed throughout the population, the share that any individual gets is too small to affect the few traits that are considered "racially" significant, and so everyone"looks White." But it can happen by sheer chance that the invisible genes for racialized traits double-up in a child, putting the baby just over the edge of racialized perception. The topic "How Many Black Children are Born into White Families?" in my essay The Heredity of “Racial” Traits shows how to compute this probability and, in fact, uses Spain as an example to show that it happens in Iberia in roughly one child out of every 200.
Second, knowing Puerto Rico, I would imagine that her parents have parents or grandparents who also have discernably African traits. But they might not be alive or were absent during the photo. My own sister is about my complexion (perhaps a bit darker), and her husband looks typically Spanish. Yet their son (who teaches at the UPR, like his parents and grandparents) is quite dark. We in the family are used to this sort of thing and don't even notice it, but I recall when my son took his bride-to-be to PR to meet the folks, Melanie was startled that her future aunt-in-law's family looked as White as can be, except for that college-professor son.
I would like to know more about the South Africa case. There was a famous case of Nelson's syndrome in South Africa that ruined a woman's life. Perhaps this is what you heard about. Nelson's syndrome, caused by a pituitary tumor, makes your melanocytes max out to the human limit of skin-tone darkness, no matter what your genes say.
Finally, not to put too fine a point on it, for thousands of years women have explained to their husbands that the baby looks just like the gardner because the mother was startled by the gardner while she was pregnant. <grin>
Last edited by fwsweet on Wed 14 Dec 2005 22:53; edited 1 time in total
SKIN
This is a profoundly moving family drama. It is also one of the most bizarre and fascinating true stories ever to emerge from South Africa: the story of Sandra Laing, a ‘white’ girl from a white society, who becomes a ‘black’ woman in a black society — and triumphs against all odds.
http://www.elysianfilms.com/skin.htm
Quote:
'Who brought my daughter to me? Tell them thank you'
Thirty years after being rejected by her family, Sandra Laing finds her mother again
BORN to white parents, Sandra Laing was 10 in 1966 when she was expelled from school and reclassified coloured for having dark skin and curly hair. Ten years later her family turned their backs on her when she married a black man. Her father died without speaking to her again and her two brothers still shun her, but this week Sandra met her mother after nearly 30 years. KAREN LE ROUX, the journalist who traced her mother, witnessed their reunion
IT IS a scorching afternoon in suburban Amandashof, Pretoria. Sandra Laing cuts a lonely figure in the doorway of unit 89 of the Amandashof Retirement Village.
The moment she has been aching for for nearly 30 years has arrived: she is about to meet her mother. Her hands tightly clenched, she watches intently as Sister Ines Schonken pushes the wheelchair towards her. The chair stops.
The bright eyes of its small, grey-haired occupant look up to meet her daughter's. For a couple of breathless seconds their eyes lock, then Sannie Laing opens her arms and Sandra bursts into tears, even before she stoops down to accept her mother's embrace.
"At last. My daughter, Sandra." The soft words of Sannie Laing. A mother who did not know whether her only daughter was dead or alive.
Sandra holds on tightly to her mother's shoulders . It takes a few minutes before she is able to utter her first words. "Mammie, Mammie."
We are all - myself, photographer Elizabeth Sejake and Schonken - overwhelmed as Sannie Laing is wheeled through to the lounge.
With the aid of a walking stick, the 80-year-old Sannie makes herself comfortable in an armchair. Sandra settles close to her mother.
Now Sannie really looks at her daughter, disbelief mingling with unutterable joy on her face. "Can it be true. Is it really my daughter?"
Sannie looks for Schonken: "Who brought my daughter to me? Tell them thank you. Thank you very, very much."
We leave Sannie and Sandra alone.
The last time Sandra saw her mother she was a thin, longlegged 18-year-old and already the mother of two children from her first husband, Petrus Zwane. One day when she went to visit her parents to show off her newborn second son, Sannie gave her a box of baby clothes and asked her not to come back.
Sandra explains: "My father was furious because I married a black man. He threatened to first shoot me and then himself if I ever put my foot over his threshold again."
Sandra's world crumbled. In the years that followed, Sandra turned that last scene over and over in her mind, and tried to make it more bearable by opting to believe that her final rejection was her father's decision, forced on her mother.
In 1989 hope shone briefly for a reunion. Sandra tracked down a cousin in Amsterdam who told her that her father, Abraham, had died the previous year. She also gave Sandra her mother's address.
Sandra immediately wrote, and received a single letter back. Though in it Sannie expressed her love and enclosed some money, the letter began: "Ek skryf sonder adres ." (I write without address.) Sannie was moving - to Cape Town she said - and she wanted no further contact.
In December last year Sandra visited her father's grave for the first time. There she made a decision: to trace her mother, instead of tormenting herself with dreams that one day she would simply appear. The search proved an uphill struggle.
Sandra lives in a small house in Tsakane, on the East Rand, with no telephone. Although her husband has a job in Springs and Sandra runs a creche from home, there is little enough money to spare for public telephone calls, let alone travel.
One of the biggest obstacles to Sandra's quest was, tragically, her brothers. Though Sandra had already traced Leon and Adriaan Laing, they had both, on several occasions, refused to see or even speak to her - let alone pass on the details of their mother's whereabouts.
In desperation, Sandra turned to her acquaintances in the media. I met Sandra shortly before Christmas at the SABC where she was being interviewed for a Special Assignment documentary about her life.
I discussed Sandra's dilemma with my own mother, Nancy, over Christmas lunch. Her words persuaded me to act: "I do not think there is a mother who would not love to make peace with her child - regardless of the circumstances."
At first my inquiries seemed fruitless. Misleading information led Sandra and me to Klerksdorp, then to the Northern and the Western Cape - to no avail.
After each failed trip, I would drop off an increasingly sad and frustrated Sandra at her home.
Then, last Monday, after another round of telephone calls, I received fresh information that had a positive ring.
By Wednesday, with the help of a friend who is an ex-police officer, we had confirmed that Sannie Laing was living at the Amandashof Retirement Village near Pretoria.
On Thursday morning I called Sandra and said: "Get ready. I'm fetching you at 11.30. Your mother is well and living in Pretoria."
Sandra was - typically - very quiet when I arrived to fetch her. I think she was trying to prepare herself for yet another dead end. We drove to Pretoria in almost total silence. It was only when we arrived and the nurses told us that Sannie was indeed there and ready to meet Sandra, that I saw the relief in her eyes.
By the time we rejoined mother and daughter after their first meeting, the atmosphere in the room was a lot more relaxed. Sannie, though frail from a recent stroke, is full of spunk and was telling Sandra about life in the retirement village, and how much it cost her to get her hair permed. "And here I am," she said with a laugh, "in one of my oldest dresses at this happy occasion."
Before anyone could respond, Sannie had turned her attention so completely back to Sandra, it was as if there was no one else in the room. Looking into her daughter's face she said: "Now tell me again. About the children."
Yes, that was the case that I was thinking of. She was written up by P. Schumaker, as "The Girl Who Turned Brown" in the Johannesburg Sunday Times Colour Magazine, (February 25, 1973), p. 6-10. She was born with a completely European phenotype, like her parents. But at age ten she developed Nelson's syndrome. According to the newspaper article, her parents and extended family initially supported her against the apartheid system then in place. But she was expelled from the White school, forbidden to ride in White buses, sit in the White sections of theaters, and so forth. Her doctors explained that she was genetically European but the government considered this irrelevant. Forced involuntarily into the Coloured community as a youngster, she socialized in that community and eventually fell in love with a Coloured young man, whom she married. It was then that her family rejected her.
As I mentioned earlier, Nelson's syndrome is the result of a pituitary tumor. Excessive amounts of pituitary hormones (ACTH, beta-LPH, and possibly alpha-MSH) override the European genetic paleness adaptation and max out melanization of skin, eyes, and hair. Although not common, the disease is not extremely rare either. It appears now and then in different countries. There is no specific cause of the tumor, although it can be triggered by the surgical removal of the adrenal glands (if they are cancerous, for example). The disease is not known to have any other effects (other than melanization). A good summary of Nelson's syndrome can be found in Ashley H. Robins, Biological Perspectives on Human Pigmentation (Cambridge UK: Cambridge University, 1991), 125, 126, 183.
Because Nelson’s syndrome produces a dark brown complexion, its appearance in racialist societies almost inevitably spawns a rash of press and TV stories about "throwbacks." There was another case in South Africa reported by R. Joseph and P. Godson, "Peace at Last for Tragic Rita: The White Outcast Trapped in a Black Skin" in the Johannesburg Sunday Times August 28, 1988, p. 12. Apartheid South Africa was fascinated by such events, as is the U.S., but similar stories can also be found in British literature. See H.M. Buckler, et. al. “Nelson’s Syndrome and Behavioural Changes Reversed by Selective Adenomectomy” in the British Journal of Psychiatry, 152 (1988), p. 412-14 for examples in England.
Like Sandra Laing, victims of this disease often suffer social ostracism. In fact, Sandra was forcibly excluded from her own father’s funeral. So, to end on a light note, let me mention the case of a twenty-three-year-old Brazilian woman of European descent who considered the disease a blessing. It resulted in her being stopped in the street by young men to admire her new color, particularly in combination with her long silky hair, and her female friends wanting to know how she got the wonderful tan.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Thu 15 Dec 2005 15:50 Post subject: Afrocentrism?
fwsweet wrote:
First, it is virtually certain that her parents had African ancestry if their forbears came from Spain. The Almoravid Empire stretched from Dakar to Barcelona and its successors ruled Spain for many centuries. In addition, Spain and Portugal assimilated about 100,000 African slaves who were imported in the 1500s. As William and I have discussed at length, today's Spaniards have about 5 percent sub-Saharan DNA.
Hi,
I pretty much disagree with these claims. Where are the sources?
As much as I know, the history says Moors were on Spain. Moors from Morocco and Algier where the ones that invaded Spain, but most of the Moors where just common Mediterranean people. The idea they were Black Africans is pretty much a modern Afrocentric idea, inspired by the racism of the British, that always claimed Spain was not European enough because it was "mongelized" with Africans.
The truth is, as far as I know, that the flux of genes always existed between North Africa, South Saharian Africa and between Northa Africa and Iberia. So certain degree of admixture it is obvious it must exist. Curly hair and certain tanned people exist.
The very idea that Spain was ruled by an Sub-Saharian African tribal chief is very ridiculous, to say the least. Although many people in the U.S. believe that.
Now, there are many individuals in Spain that look like Moroccians and many in Morocco that look like pale Spaniards. But it is virtually impossible to find in Spain a person that look like a South Saharian African, who is really native Iberian (not a tourist or an illegal).
So, what does it means to have "African genes" in this historical context?
I am pretty certain, for example, that Rita Moreno is not pure Spaniard. I have never seen a Spaniard that look like her.
That the Almoravid Empire stretched from Dakar to Barcelona and its successors ruled Spain for many centuries is available in any source on the subject. I suggest that you start with any encyclopedia. The Britannica, for example, has an excellent account at I:267 and a map at 12:144. For an online source, I suggest http://www.mauritania-today.com/anglais/history/almoravid.htm.
That Spain and Portugal assimilated about 100,000 African slaves who were imported in the 1500s is available in: Hugh Thomas, The Slave Trade: The Story of the Atlantic Slave Trade: 1440-1870 (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1997), 22-24, 48-86, 804; Lerone Bennett Jr., Before the Mayflower: A History of Black America, 6th rev. ed. (New York: Penguin, 1993), 32; David Brion Davis, The Problem of Slavery in Western Culture (Ithaca: Cornell University, 1966), 53; Frank Tannenbaum, Slave and Citizen, the Negro in the Americas (Boston: Beacon Press, 1946), 14-15, 44; and Leslie B. Rout, The African Experience in Spanish America, 1502 to the Present Day (Cambridge UK: Cambridge University, 1976), 9, 18-20.
That today's Spaniards have about 5 percent sub-Saharan DNA is available in: Martin Richards and others, “Extensive Female-Mediated Gene Flow from Sub-Saharan Africa into Near Eastern Arab Populations,” American Journal of Human Genetics 72 (2003): 1058-64; H.B. Corte-Real and others, “Genetic Diversity in the Iberian Peninsula Determined from Mitochondrial Sequence Analysis,” Annals of Human Genetics 60, no. 4 (1996): 331-50; L. Pereira, M.J. Prata, and A. Amorim, “Diversity of mtDNA Lineages in Portugal: Not a Genetic Edge of European Variation,” Annals of Human Genetics 64 (2000), 501. Also, you will find some very, very lengthy discussions on this topic in the "America's Admixed Population" forum, and many more recent studies at "Iberia (including Balearics, Canaries, Madeira, Azores, etc.)" in Various admixture studies.
oevega wrote:
The idea [that the "Moors"] were Black Africans is pretty much a modern Afrocentric idea, inspired by the racism of the British, that always claimed Spain was not European enough because it was "mongelized" with Africans.
I did not suggest that Berbers (there is no such population as "Moors") were or are "Black Africans." I wrote nothing about British "racism." Please read again what I wrote:
(1) The Almoravid Empire stretched from Dakar to Barcelona and its successors ruled Spain for many centuries.
(2) Spain and Portugal assimilated about 100,000 African slaves who were imported in the 1500s.
(3) Today's Spaniards have about 5 percent sub-Saharan DNA.
oevega wrote:
The very idea that Spain was ruled by an Sub-Saharan African tribal chief is very ridiculous, to say the least.
I agree. According the ambassadors of some of the African coastal kingdoms stationed in Madrid in the 1500s, the Spanish were a backward and ignorant people compared, say, to Benin or Kongo. Was there a point to this?
oevega wrote:
It is virtually impossible to find in Spain a person that look like a South Saharian African, who is really native Iberian (not a tourist or an illegal).
May I ask when was the last time that you visited the villages scattered between Sevilla and the Portuguese border? As I explained above, genes for a Bantu-like phenotype are too dispersed to be visible. Nevertheless, you do see a few people in that region who would have had to sit in the back of the bus in 1954 Alabama. Mary Lee and I spent quite a bit of time there in 1969. Others who saw the same thing are Frank Tannenbaum, Slave and Citizen, the Negro in the Americas (Boston: Beacon Press, 1946), 14-15, 44; and Leslie B. Rout, The African Experience in Spanish America, 1502 to the Present Day (Cambridge UK: Cambridge University, 1976), 9, 18-20.
oevega wrote:
So, what does it means to have "African genes" in this historical context?
I do not understand the question. To have "African genes" is to have sub-Saharan DNA. It shows the extent of past interbreeding. Spaniards, Melungeons, Argentineans, and White Louisianans have about 5 percent sub-Saharan admixture on average. Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, Cubans, and Brazilians have about 50 percent on average. What was your point?
oevega wrote:
I am pretty certain, for example, that Rita Moreno is not pure Spaniard. I have never seen a Spaniard that look like her.
Nobody suggested that she was. She is a famous Puerto Rican. I have never seen anyone who looks like her. She is beautiful. Again, was there a point here?
Posted: Thu 15 Dec 2005 18:06 Post subject: Re: Britannica
oevega wrote:
"Britannica". I see.
No problem. If you do not trust the Britannica on the Almoravids then just go to the Mauritanian history web site that I recommended http://www.mauritania-today.com/anglais/history/almoravid.htm. If you do not trust the Mauritanian web site on their own history, then suggest to me a peer-reviewed scholarly source on the Almoravids that you would trust and I shall be happy to take a look at it.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Thu 15 Dec 2005 22:49 Post subject: Re: Britannica
fwsweet wrote:
oevega wrote:
"Britannica". I see.
No problem. If you do not trust the Britannica on the Almoravids then just go to the Mauritanian history web site that I recommended http://www.mauritania-today.com/anglais/history/almoravid.htm. If you do not trust the Mauritanian web site on their own history, then suggest to me a peer-reviewed scholarly source on the Almoravids that you would trust and I shall be happy to take a look at it.
Hi Frank,
Yes, I visited them but I will simply recall Wikipedia.
First, Almoravids where BERBERS. These are pictures of Berbers and people of Gahna. The BERBERS are called Moors in Spain. Gahanan are called Blacks. As far as I see they don't look exactly the same.
Now, that invasion is precesely the point where Spaniards started the Reconquist. It is curious but that invasion made both Muslim and Christians to form aliances against the invaders. All that appear in the Poem of Mio Cid.
Moors are not Gahnians but Northern Africans. They look, to us, quite different indeed.
And please, you can't compare the glory of Middle Ages Spain, both Muslim and Christian with the Ghana of that time.
Regards,
Omar Vega
Quote:
Almoravides (In Arabic المرابطون al-Murabitun, sing. مرابط Murabit),
is a Berber dynasty from the Sahara which, in the 11th century, founded the fourth dynasty in Morocco.
By this dynasty the Moorish empire was extended over Tlemcen (in modern Algeria) and
a great part of Spain and Portugal. The name is derived from the Arabic Murabit,
variously translated as religious ascetic or warrior monk.
Beginnings
The most powerful of the invading tribes was the Lamtuna ("veiled men") from the upper Niger River, whose best-known representatives now are the Tuareg. They had been converted to Islam in the early times of the Arab conquest, but their knowledge of Islam did not go much beyond the formula of the shahada creed---"there is no god but God, and Muhammad is the apostle of God,"--and they were ignorant of the traditions of Shariah, or Islamic law.
Influence of orthodox Islam
About the year 1040 (or a little earlier) one of their chiefs, Yahya ibn Ibrahim, made
the pilgrimage to Mecca. On his way home, he attended the teachers of the mosque at Kairouan,
in Tunisia, who soon learnt from him that his people knew little of the religion they were supposed to profess,
and that though his will was good, his own ignorance was great. By the good offices of the theologians of
Kairawan, one of whom was from Fez, Yahya was provided with a missionary, Abd Allah ibn Yasin, a zealous
partisan of the Malikis, one of the four Madhhab; orthodox legal schools of Islam.
His preaching was before-long rejected by the Lamtunas; so on the advice of Yahya,
who accompanied him, he retired to an island in the Niger River, where he founded a ribat, or
Islamic monastery, from which as a centre his influence spread. There was no element of heresy in his creed,
which was mainly distinguished by a rigid formalism, and strict obedience to the letter of the Qur'an, and the
orthodox tradition or Sunna.
Ghana
In 1075, the Almoravides declared "jihad" ("holy struggle") on the Kingdom of Ghana.
The ensuing war pushed Ghana over the edge: ceasing the kingdom's position as a commercial
and military power by 1100, as it collapsed into tribal groups and chieftaincies, some of which
later assimilated into the Almoravides.
Spain
In 1086 Yusuf ibn Tashfin was invited by the Muslim princes in Spain to defend them against
Alfonso VI, King of Castile and León. In that year, Yusuf ibn Tashfin passed the straits to
Algeciras, inflicted a severe defeat on the Christians at the az-Zallaqah. He was de-barred
from following up his victory by trouble in Africa, which he had to settle in person.
When he returned to Spain in 1090, it was avowedly for the purpose of deposing the Muslim princes,
and annexing their states. He had in his favour the mass of the inhabitants, whom had been
worn out by the oppressive taxation imposed by their spend-thrift rulers. Their religious teachers,
as well as others in the east, (most notably, al-Ghazali in Persia and al-Tartushi in Egypt,
who was himself a Spaniard by birth, from Tortosa), detested the native Muslim princes for their
religious indifference, and gave Yusuf a fatwa -- or legal opinion -- to the effect that he had good moral
and religious right, to dethrone the heterodox rulers, who did not scruple to seek help from the
Christians, whose habits they had adopted. By 1094, he had removed them all; and though he regained
little from the Christians except Valencia, he re-united the Muslim power, and gave a check to the
reconquest of the country by the Christians.
I've never read that Sandra Laing had nelson's Syndrome. That is news to me. Do you have pictures of diagnosed nelson Syndrome people? The only one i found was nothing like Sandra.
I've never read that Sandra Laing had nelson's Syndrome. That is news to me. Do you have pictures of diagnosed nelson Syndrome people? The only one i found was nothing like Sandra.
That you are unfamiliar with the case is not surprising. The case is the most famous case of Nelson's in the medical literature, but most people do not read medical literature.
Here is a scan from Robins, page 183, that describes her case.
The only picture I have of a Nelson's patient is from the same medical text, page 125:
The details of these scans may be fuzzy, and hard to read on this forum. So I have made available hi-res (300dpi) versions of both scans. They are much to big to display on screen here, but you can download them to your own computer and examine them there. They are, respectively:
Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1082 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Fri 16 Dec 2005 18:12 Post subject: Not Sandra Laing...
Hi, Frank:
The girl with Nelson's Syndrome was not Sandra Laing. Sandra Laing is a separate case, and I've read quite a lot about her, and have never read anything other than the "throwback" explanation. In other words, I've never read that she developed Nelson's Syndrome at age 10. In fact, when she was very young, only the servants' children would play with her. She appears to be a true "throwback." Here are links...
In 1955, an Afrikaner couple gave birth to dark-skinned child with frizzly hair. The parents at first were unnerved by this, but they thought the child would get lighter as it grew up. No such luck. The child was told by her mother to stay out of the sun, less she would get blacker! She grew up being ridiculed and called "Kaffir" because of her dark skin. Finally, the authorities were called when she reached 6 years of age, and she was faced with being removed from her parents´ home and sent to live in a Coloured area.
Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1082 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Fri 16 Dec 2005 18:21 Post subject: Sub-Saharan genes in Europeans...
I'm just posting this in case anyone should think sub-Saharan genes in Europeans are restricted to Iberians only. They are not. Italy, especially some areas of southern Italy, have L sequences at a rate of 8%. Sicily has them at a rate of at least 4.4%. Sardinia has L sequences, HG8, and E(xE3b). One HLA study on Greeks has found sequences that originated in Ethiopia. Britain, Holland, France, Germany, and even Scandinavia, Austria, and Albania all have been shown to contain individuals with sub-Saharan maternal and/or paternal DNA. France has L sequences and HG8.
The important thing to remember, as Frank said, is that the alleles are too dispersed in Europe to create a truly "Negroid-looking" individual, even in Iberia and Italy.
Posted: Sat 17 Dec 2005 15:38 Post subject: Re: Not Sandra Laing...
William wrote:
Hi, Frank:
The girl with Nelson's Syndrome was not Sandra Laing. Sandra Laing is a separate case, and I've read quite a lot about her, and have never read anything other than the "throwback" explanation. In other words, I've never read that she developed Nelson's Syndrome at age 10. In fact, when she was very young, only the servants' children would play with her. She appears to be a true "throwback." Here are links...
In 1955, an Afrikaner couple gave birth to dark-skinned child with frizzly hair. The parents at first were unnerved by this, but they thought the child would get lighter as it grew up. No such luck. The child was told by her mother to stay out of the sun, less she would get blacker! She grew up being ridiculed and called "Kaffir" because of her dark skin. Finally, the authorities were called when she reached 6 years of age, and she was faced with being removed from her parents´ home and sent to live in a Coloured area.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Mon 19 Dec 2005 19:14 Post subject: Re: Sub-Saharan genes in Europeans...
William wrote:
I'm just posting this in case anyone should think sub-Saharan genes in Europeans are restricted to Iberians only. They are not. Italy, especially some areas of southern Italy, have L sequences at a rate of 8%. Sicily has them at a rate of at least 4.4%. Sardinia has L sequences, HG8, and E(xE3b). One HLA study on Greeks has found sequences that originated in Ethiopia. Britain, Holland, France, Germany, and even Scandinavia, Austria, and Albania all have been shown to contain individuals with sub-Saharan maternal and/or paternal DNA. France has L sequences and HG8.
The important thing to remember, as Frank said, is that the alleles are too dispersed in Europe to create a truly "Negroid-looking" individual, even in Iberia and Italy.
Hi,
The question is: Are those so called "Sub-Saharian" genes from Ghana or Nigeria, or are, as history say, part of the Genetic pool of the Moors: who are the people from Morocco and Algers?
Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1082 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Mon 19 Dec 2005 21:41 Post subject:
Omar wrote:
The question is: Are those so called "Sub-Saharian" genes from Ghana or Nigeria, or are, as history say, part of the Genetic pool of the Moors: who are the people from Morocco and Algers?
The sequences I was referring to [mtDNA haplogroups L1, L2, L3 and Y haplogroups HG8 & E(xE3b)] are definitely sub-Saharan in origin. If they existed in the Moors, which they probably did to some degree, then it was due to admixture / gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa.
However, in all of Europe, these sub-Saharan sequences and alleles are minimal and thinly spread, and of no real consequence in "racial" terms. You won't find a Negroid-type native (non-immigrant or descendant of immigrants) in Portugal or Italy or Britain. These genes are of interest only to molecular anthropologists to measure gene flow.
Posted: Wed 18 Jan 2006 14:54 Post subject: Re: Afrocentrism?
oevega wrote:
The very idea that Spain was ruled by an Sub-Saharian African tribal chief is very ridiculous, to say the least. Although many people in the U.S. believe that.
There were certainly members of Iberian and Latin nobility and royalty that had sub-saharan African heritage. Were they "African tribal chiefs"? No, but they were certainly mulatto.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Thu 19 Jan 2006 20:58 Post subject: Re: Afrocentrism?
Hanzou wrote:
oevega wrote:
The very idea that Spain was ruled by an Sub-Saharian African tribal chief is very ridiculous, to say the least. Although many people in the U.S. believe that.
There were certainly members of Iberian and Latin nobility and royalty that had sub-saharan African heritage. Were they "African tribal chiefs"? No, but they were certainly mulatto.
Hi,
Mulattoes? Do you mean Moors? Yes, there were Moor lord in Spain but I would not say they are Mulattoes. Rather, Moors are an intermediate population between Black and European since prehistoric times. And most lords in Spain were Arabs. After all Morish Spain was an Arabic civilization, as any one knows.
Joined: 02 May 2006 {Posts: 442 } Location: Île-de-France
Posted: Fri 19 May 2006 15:38 Post subject:
I realize this is an old thread, but I read it and felt I had to add my two cents.
With respect to these "throwbacks," and even with respect to Ms. Manzano, unless genetic evidence is present, I think the more likely explanation is that perhaps father's day cards are being sent to the wrong guy (at least geneticly speaking). I have no studies or statistics to back this up, but I think that confusion as to one's genetic father is more common than most people assume.
I realize this is an old thread, but I read it and felt I had to add my two cents.
With respect to these "throwbacks," and even with respect to Ms. Manzano, unless genetic evidence is present, I think the more likely explanation is that perhaps father's day cards are being sent to the wrong guy (at least geneticly speaking). I have no studies or statistics to back this up, but I think that confusion as to one's genetic father is more common than most people assume.
Not really. While not as accurate as a genetic test, the Sandra Laing case, for example, did have a blood paternity test done.
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