Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Mon 08 May 2006 14:12 Post subject: Re: To Salsassin and African Prince
African_Prince wrote:
My loyalty lies to indiginous sub-saharan African people. I am a Black African. Even having a White ancestor feels abstract to me, I never knew him.
Hi,
That's fine. Loyalty should start with the group one belongs. It is just important to notice that genetics don't make identity but the culture of the people we consider ours.
It could even better to consider all mankind our people, that is more difficult to do. I'll take take for people to accept it.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Mon 08 May 2006 14:36 Post subject: African heritage
Salsassin wrote:
Omar, it is not my ancestry that makes me close to the AfroPeruvian culture, it is being raised around it. I have Romani and Sephardi ancestry as well and i don't go identifying as Gitano or Jewish. I am criollo. And a part of it is Afro-Peruvian culture.
Yes Salssasin:
I sort of understand it. I know that several countries of Latin America keep an African heritage with passion. It is just part of the national cultural treasures that are shared by all the population.
In some sense, when you defend the African heritage of Peru, you are applying a sort of nationalistic view of Peru's multicultural melting pot. The same happens in Cuba, Brazil and other countries. For example, in the song "mi tierra" (My land) of Gloria Estefan who is a "white" woman, when she sings about the "drums" of her land.
The Inter-ethnic identity is something we know very well in Latin America.
Could you explain me more about that, from your point of view, it is something that is very interesting to me.
Posted: Mon 08 May 2006 17:45 Post subject: Re: African heritage
oevega wrote:
Yes Salssasin:
I sort of understand it. I know that several countries of Latin America keep an African heritage with passion. It is just part of the national cultural treasures that are shared by all the population.
In some sense, when you defend the African heritage of Peru, you are applying a sort of nationalistic view of Peru's multicultural melting pot. The same happens in Cuba, Brazil and other countries. For example, in the song "mi tierra" (My land) of Gloria Estefan who is a "white" woman, when she sings about the "drums" of her land.
The Inter-ethnic identity is something we know very well in Latin America.
Could you explain me more about that, from your point of view, it is something that is very interesting to me.
Regards,
Omar Vega
Yeah, I would say more a regional ethnic culture. The Serrano and Amazonian cultures, as well as that of some regions of the coast will be less Afro-influenced. And Gitano influenced for that matter.
And then you have certain Serrano cultures that have had the native cultures mixed in with the African ones, Haven't heard of any Afro-Amazonian traditions, but I could be wrong.
The Criollo culture of the coast has a strong Spanish and African influence mixed in with the Native. My father was born serrano but with creole family from the coast. I was raised in the coast but was also exposed to my father's serrano family. So I am mostly creole with some serrano culture thrown in. Then I lived in the Shipibos in the Amazon and picked some traditions from them as an adopted culture (One of my best friends was part Shipibo).
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Tue 09 May 2006 14:20 Post subject: Serrano
Salsassin wrote:
..Haven't heard of any Afro-Amazonian traditions, but I could be wrong.
Hi,
Hardly. The Amazon was the last frontier. Actually, the Amazonian natives look closer to the original native americans that any other folks. Even in my country, for example, most of Natives are already mixed. And I bet natives of the Andes have some degree of admixture as well.
Quote:
The Criollo culture of the coast has a strong Spanish and African influence mixed in with the Native. My father was born serrano but with creole family from the coast. I was raised in the coast but was also exposed to my father's serrano family. So I am mostly creole with some serrano culture thrown in. Then I lived in the Shipibos in the Amazon and picked some traditions from them as an adopted culture (One of my best friends was part Shipibo).
When you say Serrano do you mean the cultures of the intermediate valleys only? Are the people of the upper Andes considered in a distinct subculture? Very interesting topic, at least for me.
For our friends, it is a curious fact to be known that most Black communities of Northern South America are located at the coastal regions, like happens in Peru, Colombia and Venezuela for instance. The interior of South America is populated by colones and Natives.
Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1082 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Tue 09 May 2006 16:24 Post subject:
My good friend Rosa is Peruvian. She comes from Caraveli, Arequipa (please forgive my poor Spanish spelling) in the southern interior. She mentioned that there are towns nearby that are all "black." She sometimes would come across as a bit prejudiced, until I discovered she and her family operate with the idea that there is a caste system in place, with whites and mesitzos equal at the top, blacks and mulattoes next, and pure Indians at the bottom. This is how she put it to me. I wonder if this is just her family's or region's way of looking at things, or if this is a Peruvian belief.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Tue 09 May 2006 16:58 Post subject: castes
William wrote:
My good friend Rosa is Peruvian. She comes from Caraveli, Arequipa (please forgive my poor Spanish spelling) in the southern interior. She mentioned that there are towns nearby that are all "black." She sometimes would come across as a bit prejudiced, until I discovered she and her family operate with the idea that there is a caste system in place, with whites and mesitzos equal at the top, blacks and mulattoes next, and pure Indians at the bottom. This is how she put it to me. I wonder if this is just her family's or region's way of looking at things, or if this is a Peruvian belief.
Hi,
Salssasin can correct what I am going to say. He has the right to do it.
However, as I see it, the situation in Peru is the following.
More than castes, there is a system of classes in place. Try to enter to the british royalty and you'll get what I mean.
In Peru there is in place a class system. Most of the upper and middle classes are whites, mestizos and some europeized indians. the lower class is more diverse. However in there you got several groups like: the natives of the Andes, the Natives of the Amazon, the blacks, and the "common peruvian". Now, blacks and the "common" poors are INSIDE the society. Andean natives, because they speak Quechua or Aymara, are with one foot inside and the other outside the mainstream society. Now, Amazon Indians are just in the process to become assimilated, so they are the more discriminated of all people.
More or less that's the situation in most Latin America.
Most of what Omar said, is true.. But there is also racialism mixed in. But interwined with classism. As class mobilitiy is low, when you look a certain way, chances are you are going to be lower class and are percieved that way, but if you have a lower class phenotype and belong to a family that has had welath for generations, you are still considered upper class.
'Bill, I would never try to ca$h in on what African Americans Are due!'
Exactly! As far as I am concerned Black PR can not get reperations from the US as the US wasnt the country owning slaves in PR. WE would have to take that up with the govt of spain. Spain will never give us reparations let alone even apologize for AFrican slavery in South America/Caribbean.
The reason why black american perspective is always brought up on here is cuz Black America are decades ahead of Black Latinos and other than other afro latinos the only BLACK people we know!
Alicea Keyes, Sean Paul, Mia, Persia White are all Black but to me look like 'typical' PR. They seem to get more rep in the media than dark skin blacks but the above mentioned people from what I can tell are a small % of the AFrican American community whereas peoples that look like the above mentioned peoples are the NORM for AFroLatinos. That is what I meant by Black Latinos that look like me.
I got more to say but I am at work right now. peace
Not because she identifies as Black, but she expects all PR's of that phenotype to do so.
... Spain will never give us reparations let alone even apologize for AFrican slavery in South America/Caribbean.
...
Hi,
Just a comment.
Reparations from Spain are really ridiculous. Yes, as you know, Salsassin, the case for taking back the hundred of billions in gold and silver that Spain robb from the Americas, particularly in Peru and Mexico, have not have any success. Spain has not paid the compensation for the millions of Native that died during the conquest, either.
So, if anyone has another complain against Spain please take a ticket and wait in line
Yes, if we follow this path I wonder when someone will demand the Mongols for the crimes of Gengis Khan, or the Greeks for the invasions of Alexander. Perhaps the Brits should demand Denmark for the Norman invasions as well.
To be fair, people should not forget to demand Ghana, Nigeria and other countries of Africa, for the profit they obtained in the slave trade. (Yes, they are very silent about that scary issue)
Joined: 02 May 2006 {Posts: 443 } Location: Īle-de-France
Posted: Thu 18 May 2006 21:17 Post subject:
Quote:
AfroBoricua wrote:
'Bill, I would never try to ca$h in on what African Americans Are due!'
Exactly! As far as I am concerned Black PR can not get reperations from the US as the US wasnt the country owning slaves in PR. WE would have to take that up with the govt of spain. Spain will never give us reparations let alone even apologize for AFrican slavery in South America/Caribbean.
The reason why black american perspective is always brought up on here is cuz Black America are decades ahead of Black Latinos and other than other afro latinos the only BLACK people we know!
Alicea Keyes, Sean Paul, Mia, Persia White are all Black but to me look like 'typical' PR. They seem to get more rep in the media than dark skin blacks but the above mentioned people from what I can tell are a small % of the AFrican American community whereas peoples that look like the above mentioned peoples are the NORM for AFroLatinos. That is what I meant by Black Latinos that look like me.
I got more to say but I am at work right now. peace
.
So the 'typical' Puerto Rican would be a Black Latino. Good luck convincing the majority of Puerto Ricans who look like that and marked white on the census.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Thu 18 May 2006 21:46 Post subject: Passing
MisterLawyer wrote:
...
So the 'typical' Puerto Rican would be a Black Latino. Good luck convincing the majority of Puerto Ricans who look like that and marked white on the census.
Hi,
People don't realize that saying PR are Blacks is just as absurd than saying that Americans are Blacks, that Dominicans are Blacks, or even that South Africans, Egyptians or Morrocians are Blacks !
(Not even all "Blacks Americans" are Blacks at all ! Some look quite White by any standard. Not to mention the group called "White Indians".)
There are always "others" in most of the countries above mentioned. And some of the "others" can be "pure" of "other" races as well.
For instance, in Chile, Argentina and Brazil you can find people that is pure German. And are they less "South Americans" because of that?
Omar, you miss the point. You assume there are no Black dominicans? Or Black identified Dominicans? So long as it is self identity, I fully will defend their right to it. AfroBoriqua has every right to identify as Black even if she looks like Jennifer Biels, or Alicia Keys. But so do many Puerto Ricans with that same phenotype have the right to identify as White if they have been raised as such.
That is where i disagree with them. Of course they would not allow for choice.
I kind of feel bad for the poor blokes who got deleted by crazy leslie the new mod, because she assumed they were me. I just got bored of posting. I read what is good and ignore what is not.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Mon 22 May 2006 11:14 Post subject: skins
Salsassin wrote:
Omar, you miss the point. You assume there are no Black dominicans? Or Black identified Dominicans? So long as it is self identity, I fully will defend their right to it. AfroBoriqua has every right to identify as Black even if she looks like Jennifer Biels, or Alicia Keys. But so do many Puerto Ricans with that same phenotype have the right to identify as White if they have been raised as such...
Hi,
I agree. Anyone can identify with whatever it likes. Yes, a person can be Argentinean and Jewish at the same time, or Gypsy and Spaniard. Or Native and Mexican. No problem with that. But in those cases we are talking about different cultures.
I wonder what people would say if someone start to group all the green eyed people of the America like if they were an identity. The Green-Argentineans, the Green-Boriquas, the Green-Haitians. Well, if you don't like the example of the greens, what about a global society of curlies, joining together all the curlies of the world from New Guinea to Israel.
Why I say that? Because the only thing Black Latinos have in common is a color of skin. You know very well, Salssasin, that the "African" culture was wipe out of Latin America by the very efficient assimilation machine of their colonial masters and the catholic church. And you know that what remains is patrimony of countries rather than group.
To say that Salsa or Cumbia are "Afro" is not telling the truth. Those rythms are from Puerto Rico and Colombia as a whole.
There is still an interconnectivity between them and they do have cultural aspects in common. If you think there is no unique elements in AfroLatino communities that are not a part of the mainstream, you are truly blind.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Mon 22 May 2006 15:34 Post subject: Afrolatinos
Salsassin wrote:
There is still an interconnectivity between them and they do have cultural aspects in common. If you think there is no unique elements in AfroLatino communities that are not a part of the mainstream, you are truly blind.
Hi,
The colonial experience of Natives and Blacks was different, Jaime.
In the issue of cultural preservation, The experience of Blacks is a lot more similar to one of the Europeans rather than to Natives. Let me explain.
Natives that preserved they cultures lived outside the influences of Europeans. People don't usually know than more than half the territories of Latin America were never colonized by the Iberians. Most of what is preserved was in the outside. The rest of Natives migrated to a syncretic culture which is only partially Native.
In the case of both Europeans and Blacks they really lost their mother cultures. Let's start from the Europeans: what "culture" has in common people of Spain, France, Italy, Greece, Russia and even the Middle East?
The fact is the colones and immigrants were treated like "row matterials" and they have to assimilate to the local cultures.
In the case of the Africans is the same. In the New World they not only have to suffer the domination of a European culture, but also have to change theirs because they came from different places in Africa. Bantues, Mandigas, and lots of other peoples have cultures from hundreds of different tribes, and even spoke dozens of different languages. So, in the Americas they lost their mother culture, for sure. What remained were just the cultural patterns they have in common.
So, talking about an African culture for modern Black of Latin America is like talking about the French culture of the immigrants of French that arrived here as well. In the last case, no much is left. Yes, there are certain "evidences" of course, but not much more.
There is always exceptions, and in Brazil and Cuba, because of the large number of slaves with relation to the population, some customs remain. But the big picture is quite different and the African culture was almost totally lost, as you well know.
The Experience of Europeans and Africans was hardly the same. Europeans weren't prohibited from practicing their traditions. They weren't brought over as slaves to Latin America with their families broken up.
I am fully aware of a different distinct group of Afro-Latino cultures. (Not all Afrodescent people belong to them, nor do all non Afro descent people not belong to them.)
I am more amused with the foolishness of some of the people there.
paisana wrote:
Back to Afrocentrism, the topic that got me invited here. As I stated in another post, the former member that invited me here expected that I get involved in his personal delehma. I wanted to contributed and make my opposing arguments, but I didn't know that his whole angle 'was like that'.
This girl is delusional. I invited anyone and everyone that has an interest in Afrolatino culture. Including Afrocentric AfroLatinos.
Quote:
As I said in that post, while there are some aspects of Afrocentrism that I don't agree with, I will not be part of some conspiracy by some aesthetic white person claiming African ethnic heritage, who does not remotely know what it is like to walk in the shoes of a phenotypically black person.
Again this person is clueless. A conspiracy is a meeting of the minds, a plan, among more than one. People expressing their opinions is not a conspiracy. And people stating facts, is not related to having a phenotypically black experience.
Quote:
I can't tell you how shocked I am that a person who has studied law and is a member of the highest level of US Armed forces would resort to such tactics. I'm like, how do they have that much time? And if they are really awaiting to be deported to Iraq, are they suffering a mental breakdown? Are they bitter about something? Are they that far up in rank? Do they know that much about ISP's? Should the people over them know? Are they being paid to do so, cause you know the gob'ment sometimes...
Why do some people always fall into paranoia? Am I working at a law firm right now? No. I am in the Reserves. If i get deployed, not deported, I do. Luckily I missed the bullet this last time. Oh yeah, it is a government conspiracy. This girl who i thought i knew a little really showed she had a screw loose.
Quote:
That's the part I don't undertand and find so dangerous. I've deleted this person from any lists I had them on and blocked them from my email, of which they last sent me an invite to join some contact list service.
LOL. It's called bulk mail. She must still be in my contact list.
Quote:
Someone like them, you don't know what/who they know and what they are capable of/their alibi, given their actions which is the scary part for me. Most of all, WHY do they even bother? They invited me here, and as soon as I respectfully disagreed with them they refered to me as an idiot. I don't get that.
Oh please. I had no clue who she was as people have tons of screennames. It took me a while to figure it out. And her beleif in negritic races is idiotic. point blank.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Tue 23 May 2006 14:22 Post subject: mixtures
mixedmom wrote:
This looked interesting. Are they attempting to bring the various admixture labels under the "Negra" label here?
Yes, they are making a census of the different mixtures of Colombia related with Africans. Negro (Black), Mulatto (Black+European), Zambo (Black+Indian).
'
FAQ
Search
Register
Log in
)
