Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1082 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Wed 15 Mar 2006 15:43 Post subject: A few questions on "Blacks" with no "Black" DNA
While reading Frank's essays, I came across a mentioning of the existence of Black-identified White-looking folks who do not have detectable sub-Saharan DNA. Elsewhere in the essays, I read about White folks who may or may not have had a distant Black ancestor, but who were forced to the Black side of the line through court cases, usually because of defending or associating with Blacks. Since the law decreed that one must prove that one doesn't have any Black ancestors to be declared White by the court, and since this is impossible, most were reclassified as Black. Society still ruled, for if it chose to change its mind and still see the newly classified "Blacks" as White, they would, for all intent and purpose, be considered White on censuses and the like, despite the ruling.
My questions are:
1) Is there any way of knowing if those Whites who were reclassified as Black are one and the same as those "Blacks" who have no detectable sub-Saharan DNA? Or are the latter simply those who really had an African ancestor, but it was too far back to show up? Or both?
2) Do we know if any of these newly classified "Blacks" who weren't still considered White by the community despite the ruling eventually "passed" back into White society years later, perhaps through a maroon community?
3) Do we know if some of the socially and physically White politicians who were known to have had Black ancestry during the time when it was considered a "plus" for Whites to have a touch of Black ancestry eventually got reclassified as Black in the early 1900's?
Joined: 16 Mar 2006 {Posts: 1 } Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posted: Fri 17 Mar 2006 16:17 Post subject:
Hi, Bill. I can't answer a single one of your questions, but thought I'd drop by and say hello. I once had a hammer myself and hammered my index finger till it was black identified.
Posted: Sat 18 Mar 2006 19:48 Post subject: Re: A few questions on "Blacks" with no "Black" DNA
William wrote:
1) Is there any way of knowing if those Whites who were reclassified as Black are one and the same as those "Blacks" who have no detectable sub-Saharan DNA? Or are the latter simply those who really had an African ancestor, but it was too far back to show up? Or both?
I had always thought the second. (Valid family oral history but meiosis gradually lost the African markers.) The ones who lacked admixture came from a study by Esteban Parra in SC (as I recall, the study was of a group of middle-aged African-American males in Columbia SC who were undergoing prostate treatment). I think that it is one of the "parra" studies in our admixture folder.
William wrote:
2) Do we know if any of these newly classified "Blacks" who weren't still considered White by the community despite the ruling eventually "passed" back into White society years later, perhaps through a maroon community?
A.D. asked me a similar question a couple of years ago. The only way to find out would be to trace the family's civil records (census, taxes, school, marriage, death) for the decades after the event. I have done this for only a few (notably the Spencers of Rock Lick VA) because it is so time-consuming. It would be a neat project, however, and I would love to know the answer.
William wrote:
3) Do we know if some of the socially and physically White politicians who were known to have had Black ancestry during the time when it was considered a "plus" for Whites to have a touch of Black ancestry eventually got reclassified as Black in the early 1900's?
Interesting question. I wish I knew. You hear a lot of family oral history stories of this. I recall a letter (it may have been to Interracial Voice, or perhaps the II--interracial individuals--listserv) from a South Carolina African-American who still had his G-G-grandfather's Confederate officer's sword hanging over the fireplace of his family's old plantation house.
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 168 } Location: Mid-Atlantic States; USA
Posted: Mon 02 Oct 2006 03:57 Post subject: Re: A few questions on "Blacks" with no "Black" DNA
I have a White Great-Grandfather (may he dance in peace), who
told the law he was Mulatto so that he could live and travel with his
Mulatto wife in peace.
After she died (may she also dance in peace), he married a White
wife; but now since he was recorded as and legally labeled as Mulatto,
he had his new White wife also tell the law she was Mulatto, so that
they could now live and travel in peace. And also so they could remain
in the South near his children by my Great-Grandmother, his first wife;
children whom my Great-Grandmother had requested be taken to her
parent's home, in the event of her death.
He was a member of the IRB (Irish Republican Brotherhood), and was
on the run from the British. He was Irish Catholic from Ulster (Northern
Ireland), and his life was devoted to the struggle for Irish freedom and
dignity. He only left after being placed on the British hit list, otherwise
he'd have never left, no matter how hard the struggle.
Marrying a fairly prosperous lady of African descent was ideal for him
and he repaid her and their offspring with love and loyalty; even after
her death and his remarriage. He took their four children to her parents
home in the South, and then moved to a nearby large city so he could
earn money and look out for them. May they all dance in peace. I am
grateful for their memory.
I've been told that Saint Patty won't let him in because the family forgot
to put some Guiness Stout in his coffin, for him to give to Saint Patty
when he gets to the Pearly Gates; and that the Devil won't take him
either, because the Devil doesn't feel like having to spend the rest of
eternity putting up with my Great-Grandfather's practical jokes. So I
don't know where he'll be spending eternity.
I don't know whether to look up or down, but wherever he and the rest
of my Honorable (at least to me) Ancestors are going, they're probably
there by now. May Creator have mercy on their souls and their memory.
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 168 } Location: Mid-Atlantic States; USA
Posted: Mon 02 Oct 2006 06:23 Post subject:
Salsassin wrote:
So where the descendants who were from the second wife classified as Black later in the ODR era?
Oh, yes Sir (smile), absolutely.
It must be said, though, that our USA is still only a young country.
So Salsassin, how in the world can I not be pleased with all the
progress I see being made all around me (hahaha)? We're even
beginning to do a little bit better at honoring our treaty obligations
to the original inhabitants of this great nation (big smile). Thankfully,
we've come a long way, even in my own lifetime. And Mr. Salsassin,
watching you young folks, especially fills my heart with hope.
Oh, by the way you know my Great-Grandparents lived in Boston
before my Great-Grandmother died. Yes, Boston was the place to
be. But, yes, they had to travel South to visit her parents, etc., and
it was just a whole lot easier to say he was "Mulatto" and be done
with it. Of course, later, when he had to take the kids South, after
her death; he had to keep things the way they were, for the kid's
sake and his. He was a Captain in the IRB (Irish Republican
Brotherhood), so I'm told it was a matter of honor with him.
'
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