Posted: Sun 30 Apr 2006 15:20 Post subject: Black parents with White kids
Discussions on the heredity of phenotype often focus upon whether Black parents can have a White child. More precisely, whether a parent who self-identifies as a member of the U.S. Black endogamous group can have a child who looks so White (has such a European phenotype) that he or she has little choice in adulthood but to either self-identify as White (like Carol Channing) or to evade the question altogether (like Vin Diesel). The following collection of photos may make this clearer.:
Charles and mother
Victoria Rowell and daughter
The Hogdson twins
Donna Summers grandkids
Eartha Kitt and daughter
Soledad O'Brien and mother and daughter
In addition, there are many photos available of White celebrities with sub-Saharan African ancestry.
Last edited by fwsweet on Wed 27 May 2009 10:26; edited 8 times in total
Joined: 28 Apr 2006 {Posts: 282 } Location: 51st State
Posted: Sun 30 Apr 2006 16:27 Post subject: Re: Black parents with White kids
fwsweet wrote:
Discussions on the heredity of phenotype often focus upon whether Black parents can have a White child. More precisely, whether a parent who self-identifies as a member of the U.S. Black endogamous group can have a child who looks so White (has such a European phenotype) that he or she has little choice in adulthood but to either self-identify as White (like Carol Channing) or to evade the question altogether (like Vin Diesel). The following collection of photos may make this clearer.:
The Hogdson twins
Eartha Kitt and daughter
In addition, there are many photos available of White celebrities with sub-Saharan African ancestry.
The case which interests me here is The Hogdson twins. In this picture we have BOTH parents so we can note the "base" and resulting phenotypes. I find that useful information.
Are these Hogdson twins before the era of IVF because some of these one white one black twins have come about through clinic error? I still see gradation mostly. Could the "white" twin here perhaps result from the random combining of only certain of the parents underlying genotype?
These are fraternal twins in any case.
Eartha Kitt and daughter draw my attention too. As I just caught a part of a 1973 talk show appearance where Eartha Kitt justifies going to South Africa. She went there because she felt this was the best way to understanding the racist system of Apartheid; through first hand experience. I was always struck by the powerful and dramatic way in which she spoke. She always had what seemed to me a upper class European accent.
I read about Merle Oberon and her possible East European heritage on IV.
Posted: Sun 30 Apr 2006 17:39 Post subject: Re: Black parents with White kids
Altertude wrote:
Could the "white" twin here perhaps result from the random combining of only certain of the parents underlying genotype?
Of course. All organisms "result from the random combining of only certain of the parents underlying genotype." That is how meiosis works. Half of your father's genome and half of your mother's genome are randomly chosen to go into each gamete (sperm or ovum) that you produce.
In the above case, each parent has genes for fair complexion and also has genes for dark complexion. And so the father produces some sperms at random with light genes and some sperms with dark genes. And the mother has some ova with light genes and some with dark. If a dark-gene sperm happens to fertilize a dark-gene egg, the kid comes out darker than both parents. If a light-gene sperm happens to fertilize a light-gene egg, the kid comes out lighter than both parents. If a dark-gene sperm happens to fertilize a light-gene egg, or vice-versa, the kid comes out about the same as both parents.
And so, the probability of a child coming out lighter than both parents (like the lighter twin above) is 1/4. The probability of a child coming out darker than both parents (like the darker twin) is also 1/4. The chance of having two full siblings, one of whom is darker and the other lighter than both parents are 1/4 x 1/4 = 1/16.
It happens all the time, and I doubt that there exists a Puerto Rican extended family that does not have cousins with a similar situation somewhere. The only time that it catches the Anglo-American eye (White or Black) is when both parents are on the fuzzy borderline of social perception, when both parents appear what Anglo-Americans (White and Black) call "Hispanic-looking." Then it can happen (as above) that one child or the other comes out on the other side of the border of Anglo-American (Black and White) social perception.
Last edited by fwsweet on Sun 30 Apr 2006 18:14; edited 4 times in total
Joined: 28 Apr 2006 {Posts: 282 } Location: 51st State
Posted: Sun 30 Apr 2006 18:09 Post subject: Re: Black parents with White kids
fwsweet wrote:
Altertude wrote:
Could the "white" twin here perhaps result from the random combining of only certain of the parents underlying genotype?
Of course. All organisms "result from the random combining of only certain of the parents underlying genotype." That is how meiosis works. Half of your father's genome and half of your mother's genome are randomly chosen to go into each gamete (sperm or ovum) that you produce.
In the above case, each parent has genes for fair complexion and also has genes for dark complexion. And so the father produces some sperms at random with light genes and some sperms with dark genes. And the mother has some ova with light genes and some with dark. If a dark-gene sperm happens to fertilize a dark-gene egg, the kid comes out darker than both parents. If a light-gene sperm happens to fertilize a light-gene egg, the kid comes out lighter than both parents. If a dark-gene sperm happens to fertilize a light-gene egg, or vice-versa, the kid comes out about the same as both parents.
And so, the probability of a child coming out lighter than both parents (like the lighter twin above) is 1/4. The probability of a child coming out darker than both parents (like the darker twin) is also 1/4. The chance of having two full siblings, one of whom is darker and the other lighter than both parents are 1/4 x 1/4 = 1/16.
Posted: Sun 30 Apr 2006 18:37 Post subject: White chiildren of "black" parents
I think we should say that we are talking about the offspring or descendants of people who were (at least at one time) forced to publicly identify with the "black" endogamous group. Charles M. Byrd was brought up to do so, but has rejected it. Ward Connerly has partially rejected it. The parents of the "white and black twins" are British and living in the UK, so they were never part of the American caste.
We should also distinguish between children and grandchildren.
Of course, we are really dealing with the myth that "dark" or "nonwhite" genes always overwhelm "white" ones. Too many Americans (white, black and otherwise) are startled that "light" can come out of "dark." They've been led to believe that this is impossible except n freakish cases. You'll notice that in the anti-passing films, "Imitation of Life" and "Pinky," the "passing" figure is presented as a genetic freak born to Negroes and not as a descendant of whites.
Roberto Cavalli and Met Party
Stephen Burrows, center, with Pat Cleveland and daughter Anna van Ravenstein, in his designs.
Photo: Sherly Rabbani and Josephine Solimene
Joined: 28 Apr 2006 {Posts: 282 } Location: 51st State
Posted: Mon 01 May 2006 08:17 Post subject: Re: White chiildren of "black" parents
Powell wrote:
I think we should say that we are talking about the offspring or descendants of people who were (at least at one time) forced to publicly identify with the "black" endogamous group. Charles M. Byrd was brought up to do so, but has rejected it. Ward Connerly has partially rejected it.
If a cab will pull over for them, and ladies won't don't hold on extra tight to their handbags when their pass - more power to them.
Quote:
The parents of the "white and black twins" are British and living in the UK, so they were never part of the American caste.
Right! They are living in the global caste system.
Quote:
Of course, we are really dealing with the myth that "dark" or "nonwhite" genes always overwhelm "white" ones.
So where is that being dealt with then. Either its a dominant trait or its not - but obviously if someone is very light mulatto, the child of that person and a brownish "black" indentified person is probably not going to be dark skinned and Negroid featured.
Quote:
Too many Americans (white, black and otherwise) are startled that "light" can come out of "dark." They've been led to believe that this is impossible except n freakish cases. You'll notice that in the anti-passing films, "Imitation of Life" and "Pinky," the "passing" figure is presented as a genetic freak born to Negroes and not as a descendant of whites.
Who made these anti-passing films? This just reinforces the point I made in the Babe Ruth thread...what is the message in these films:- "you look after him, he ain't one of us". In "Imitation of Life" which I still haven't seen, the response from the one-droppers is, "she looks good on the surface n' all, but now I've seen her mother I can't risk produce a "Queen Charlotte" or some such if have children." Same in the film Q&A.
From what I've seen of the world, including the pictures in this thread (contrary to what others say about people are not "cans of paint"), "dark" plus "dark" usually produces another light person, similarly "light" plus "light" usually produces another light person. All I see is here is gradual color lightening or darkening, the direction of which can usually be predicted from the parents and grandparents.
Zsana and mixedmom, what are the pretty pictures you posted supposed to show?
Posted: Mon 01 May 2006 11:23 Post subject: Re: White chiildren of "black" parents
Altertude wrote:
If a cab will pull over for them, and ladies won't don't hold on extra tight to their handbags when their pass - more power to them.
I strongly doubt that cab drivers pull over and women don't hold onto handbags based upon someone's group affiliation. Such colorism is driven by the target's looks, not by the target's group affiliation. Please cite evidence.
Altertude wrote:
Right! [Brits] are living in the global caste system.
I strongly doubt that. "Caste" means endogamous group. Afro-European endogamy exists only in the United States. Please cite evidence.
Altertude wrote:
Either [skin tone is] a dominant trait or its not.
It is not. I already explained how skin tone works.
Altertude wrote:
From what I've seen of the world, including the pictures in this thread (contrary to what others say about people are not "cans of paint"), "dark" plus "dark" usually produces another light person, similarly "light" plus "light" usually produces another light person. All I see is here is gradual color lightening or darkening, the direction of which can usually be predicted from the parents and grandparents.
Altertude is apparently immune to the evidence of Altertude's own eyes. One of the pictures shows twins, one of whom is lighter and the other darker than both parents. If you mix two cans of medium paint, you do not get a mix that is darker (or lighter) than both original cans, one time in four.
The genetics of skin tone is not a topic open to unsubstantiated opinion that flies in the face of overwhelming evidence. The two best elementary explanations are Curt Stern, Principles of Human Genetics, 3d ed. (San Francisco: W. H. Freeman, 1973), 443-65 and L. L. Cavalli-Sforza and W. F. Bodmer, The Genetics of Human Populations (Mineola NY: Dover, 1999), 527-31. For deeper explanations, see Richard A. Sturm, Neil F. Box, and Michele Ramsay, “Human Pigmentation Genetics: The Difference is Only Skin Deep,” BioEssays 20 (1998): 712-21; B.K. Rana and others, “High Polymorphism at the Human Melanocortin 1 Receptor Locus,” Genetics 151, no. 4 (1999): 1547-48; R.M. Harding and others, “Evidence for Variable Selective Pressures at MC1R,” Journal of Human Genetics 66, no. 4 (2000): 1351; and P.A. Kanetsky and others, “A Polymorphism in the Agouti Signaling Protein Gene is Associated with Human Pigmentation,” American Journal of Human Genetics 70 (2002): 770-775. If Altertude (or anyone else) wants to explain how skin tone works, either stick to what is known or present newly discovered evidence.
Altertude wrote:
Zsana and mixedmom, what are the pretty pictures you posted supposed to show?
The title of this thread is "Black parents with White kids." The photos in question show Black parents with White kids.
I urge Altertude to read the The Rules. In contrast to some other sites, this site (OneDropRule) tolerates a mild level of hostility if claims are backed up by evidence. But, in contrast to most other sites, this site does not tolerate factual assertions that are not backed up by evidence. If Altertude has uncovered new evidence on cab driver behavior, on Euro-African endogamy outside the United States, or on the genetics of skin tone, then Altertude should cite this evidence. Otherwise, Altertude should stick to expressing advocacy, not claiming facts.
Last edited by fwsweet on Thu 19 Oct 2006 23:45; edited 1 time in total
Altertude responded to the above with a series of questions about site policy. To avoid cluttering up this thread ("Black parents with White kids") with an unrelated discussion of site policy, I have moved Altertude's last post in its entirety to the thread "Altertude's questions about site policy" in the section titled "Forum Management." Those who wish to participate in that tangent are invited there. This present thread will continue with the original topic (Black parents with White kids).
Last edited by fwsweet on Tue 02 May 2006 01:27; edited 2 times in total
Who is the father of Rae Dawn Chong's daughter, anyone?
I don't know if this man is the father of Rae Dawn Chong's daughter or not but it's a possibility. Click here.
I do know however that this is Rae's biological daughter. If you scroll to the bottom of the screen you'll find the photo was taken at the 7th Annual Environmental Media Awards. Click here.
Altertude wrote:
Quote:
Really Boris Becker, black; David Bowie, black?
About Boris Beckers eldest son (his youngest son and daughter are quite Nordic appearanced) and David's daughter Alexandria. Now I admit they probablly do look stereotypically biracial/"Latin" to American eyes. But they also certainly look as white as many Arabs, Southern Italians, Greeks, and Hispanics I've seen who are legally categorized as white. I'm assuming your statement was in regards to the children and not the mixed couples themselves? The topic at hand is Black parents with White kids. Children of mixed background with phenotypes so white some later self-identify as white or evade the "race" question all together.
Some want to pretend that to be considered white one has to look like the Elves from Lord of the Rings.
And when biracials do fit the Aryan physical requirement, some claim "they're still really black". They just "look" white.
Pat Cleveland, the youngest ever to tour with Ebony Fashion Fair at age 15, used her experience with the show as a springboard for what would become a successful modeling career. Cleveland, during the '70s, became one of fashion's biggest Black runway models. Before the term supermodel was formally coined, the pioneering beauty was considered among one of fashion's first Black "supermodels."
IMO, If she does identify as white, European-American, or biracial that should be respected and not reduced to "she could pass".
Posted: Tue 02 May 2006 13:01 Post subject: Rae Dawn Chong's children
I knew that Rae Dawn Chong had a white son, Morgan Baylis (by her first husband). He would be college-age now. When did she have a daughter and who is the father?
I don't believe C. Thomas Howell is the father because he and Rae divorced in either 1989 or 1990. The girl would at least be a teenager by now if she were his. Plus, C. Thomas Howell is rather "dark" (olive-complected with dark hair and eyes) to produce such a Nordic looking daughter with Rae IMO. I know it can and does happen sometimes but I think it's rare.
I've noticed that often when mixed heritage children turn out really white, like Eartha Kitt's, Angela Ermakova's, and Victoria Rowell's daughter - and Tai Babilonia's son - the fathers (or in cases where the mother is white) are often blonde and blue eyed.
Rae's son is from her first marriage to Owen Baylis. Her marriage to C. Thomas Howell was short-lived and didn't produce any children.
I haven't been able to find out any information on the net regarding who the father of Rae's daughter is. Or, when she was born.
If the father is not this mystery man, I bet my bottom dollar he's the same type.
Three years ago on MTV Cribs, Downtown Julie Brown (80's VJ) was featured and they showed her German husband Martin Schuemann and daughter. Again, the daughter was white skinned, Caucasian featured, with straight blonde hair and blue eyes just like her dad.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Tue 02 May 2006 21:36 Post subject: Genetics
zsana wrote:
I've noticed that often when mixed heritage children turn out really white, ...- the fathers (or in cases where the mother is white) are often blonde and blue eyed.
Hi,
That's just a matter of probabilities. To have a child blond and blue eyed both parents have to carry the genes to code blond hair and blue eyes. That's has nothing to do with race. If both parents are dark eyes and have recesive genes for colored eyes, they have 1/4 of probabilities of having child that are blue eyed. Now, if both parents have recesive blond hair they have 1/4 of probabilities they kids are blond. So if they have 1/4*1/4 =1/16 of probabilities they have kids that are both blond and blue eyes. And those parents could be Blacks with some blond ancestors.
In the case one parent is blond, the other also have to carry recesive blond hair and blue eyes. There the chances are 1/2*1/2=1/4 of having a kid which is both blond and blue eyed. So the is for times more probable a pure with mixed Black couple to have blond blue eyed kids that for a couple of mixed black people.
On the other side, people that don't have blond blue eyes ancestor have not chance to have blond blue eyes kids. That happens with East Asians and "pure" Africans, but many Arabs, Latinos and even East Indians have some blond in the family tree, so there is a change in there as well. And those events happens relatively often.
Skin color is more complicated, I believe, because there are more that just a couple of genes that code that. That's why skin collors seem to add.
Joined: 02 May 2006 {Posts: 444 } Location: Île-de-France
Posted: Wed 03 May 2006 13:54 Post subject:
First, hello to all, I've been lurking reading your thoughts for several months now, and finally feel the need to contribute/question this thread. The thread is called black parents with white kids. Looks to me that what we are really talking about is mixed, maybe "black identified" women who have kids with unmixed european descended men. Alot of the time these kids look "racially" like their dads, because by the luck of the draw, they get mostly european genes from their moms, and all european genes from their dads. Neat pictures to look at, but my point is we should be very clear what we are talking about.
First, hello to all, I've been lurking reading your thoughts for several months now, and finally feel the need to contribute/question this thread. The thread is called black parents with white kids. Looks to me that what we are really talking about is mixed, maybe "black identified" women who have kids with unmixed european descended men. Alot of the time these kids look "racially" like their dads, because by the luck of the draw, they get mostly european genes from their moms, and all european genes from their dads. Neat pictures to look at, but my point is we should be very clear what we are talking about.
In some cases the "black" parent is actually mulatto or a whiter mix but that doesn't appear to be the case here:
In some cases the "black" parent is actually mulatto or a whiter mix but that doesn't appear to be the case here:
Actually, my maternal grandmother -- God rest her soul -- was more my color, and she had more of the high cheekbones associated with American Indians. My mother's father was a very dark man.
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