Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Sat 27 May 2006 13:09 Post subject: SKIN COLOR
HI,
In the study shows:
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The Puerto Rico individuals were of primarily European ancestry (53.3 2.8%) but also had relatively large proportions of West African (29.1 2.3%) and Indigenous American (17.6 2.4%) ancestry.
That makes sense for Puerto Ricans. Almost 18% of Native ancenstry and 30% African is what one expect just by looking their phenotypes in pictures. Now, Latin Americans in general are lot more European and Indian than Black.
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The Hispanic individuals had both European (62.7 2.1%) and Indigenous American ancestry (34.1 1.5%), with a relatively small proportion of West African ancestry (3.21.5%).
In the global picture, Native American ancestry reach easily 34% (1/3 of the genetic pool). Those proportions changes quite a lot from country to country and between regions, but the order is about the following: European, Native and African in descendent proportions. That's the reality of Latin America.
Now, the studies of skin color does not make much sense in Latin America because of the following:
(1) It is well known there are pure natives that are very dark skinned and also many that are light skinned. Dark skinned natives usually live in regions close to the equator. Besides, some Europeans are darker than the average, too.
(2) Color of skin changes with exposure to sun light. In regions where sun light is constant farmers are usually darker that office employees, without need to exist racial differences. And while nordics get red with the sun, Mediterraneans and Indians get dark brown.
If foreigners go to the beaches in any country of South America will see those coal colored kinds swimming all day long. Well, many of those kids are black just during summer time (there are African descendents as well, of course). Natives and Southern Europeans tan very dark when expossed continuosly to summer sunlight. They could easily "pass" as Africans to the casual viewer.
That's an adaptation to tropical weather, I guess.
At the end, skin collor is one of the least estable things to measure. People get tanned. Color could even be changed because of an illness, or by the use of drugs (remember Michael Jackson).
Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1082 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Tue 30 May 2006 16:49 Post subject:
MisterLawyer wrote:
The point is historical realites explain the appearant disparity between the mtDNA/Y dna percentages and the autosomal estimates. In many countries the native population was decimated, but at the same time, those who suvived reproduced very successfully with the invaders.
mtDNA / Y-chromosome studies do differ from autosomal studies sometimes in terms of percentages of admixture. But every mtDNA study differs from other mtDNA studies, and every Y study differs from other Y studies. I have been studying Sicily lately and have found that one mtDNA study found no sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroups, one found sub-Saharan L markers at rates (depending on region) ranging from 0% to 2%, and found sub-Saharan M1's at rates ranging from 0% to 8%; another found 4 L1/L2's out of 90 (4.4%); another found one L2a out of 106 (0.9%); another found one L2a out of 165 (0.6%); another found 6 L's (including L3's, which weren't tested for in the above samples) and 5 M1's out of 80 Sicilians from Sciacca (13.8%). See what I mean? It depends on the sample population (location, size, and simply the fact that different individuals comprise different samples) and the markers tested for. As for Y, most studies found no recent sub-Saharan markers in Sicilians (not all markers were tested for), but one found 3 E-M35* markers out of 55 (5.5%). In southern Italy, a few mtDNA studies found no sub-Saharan markers, but one found one L1 in 26 Puglians (3.85%), one found 3 L1/L2's in 87 Apulians (3.4%), and another found 3 L's out of 37 individuals from a sample labeled "South Italy" (8.1%). Some Y studies found sub-Saharan material there, others did not. The same can be said for Portugal, Spain, Greece, France, Holland, Britain, etc.
In conclusion, all of this should be taken with a grain of salt. The admixture rates for each sample are valid in terms of that sample alone and the markers that were tested for. Results will always differ from study to study. The point is that sub-Saharan admixture occurred, and that much can't be argued.
With Puerto Ricans, it is safe to say that the European, African, and indigenous contributions were all considerable.
Posted: Thu 01 Jun 2006 13:49 Post subject: Re: JODIE Versus Oevega and Salassin
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Hi Jodie:
Howdy
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You are right that many people in Brazil is multiracial. I was just arguing that the weight of Native Ancestry of Brazilian is not minor at all.
I never said it was minor just that it was definitely nothing compared to the African amount.
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Now, the idea of using initial populations as a clue to estimate current populations has a problem. Not only mortality is important but the birth rate as well, and also immigration and migration rates. The case of Brazil can serve as an example as well.
In Brazil about 50% is of European ancestry, and many are of Portuguese ancestry. That represent more that 90 million people. Now do you know that Portugal at the times of the discovery only has 1 Million people? That's a lot less that the supossed number of Natives in Brazil and Blacks as well.
What what? Type this again please. I read English not Spanglish. I'll still attempt. If your referring to native birth rate's they still don't compare to the many mulatto and quadroon birthrate's which still are either higher or definitely equal. If they are equal, either way the multiracial mulatto, and quadroon types still represent a majority in Brazil.
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How can you explain that now? We are talking about a population growing 100 times!!
Again if your referring to your above quote you'll have to do better than that darling.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Thu 01 Jun 2006 14:14 Post subject: Re: JODIE Versus Oevega and Salassin
jodie wrote:
..
What what? Type this again please. I read English not Spanglish.
Sorry. My mother language is from Spain, not from the lands of the germanic tribes of northen Europe.
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I'll still attempt. If your referring to native birth rate's they still don't compare to the many mulatto and quadroon birthrate's which still are either higher or definitely equal.
Not so. Native birth rate was low. Meti (Mestizo in Hispanic America and cabloco in Brazil) birth rate was the highest of all. You forget a simple fact: Mestizos were treated like whites in most colonies south of the border, and they did have lots of kids. I can tell you.
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If they are equal, either way the multiracial mulatto, and quadroon types still represent a majority in Brazil.
False. The majority in Brazil IS European descendent with some Native ancestry (55%). And about HALF of those brown people that people usually count as Black are Indians. Count straigh hair people in Brazil. Indians are dark in Brazil and when they migrate to cities are almost impossible to distinguish from the average Brazilian!
Moreover, I have seen pure Blacks comming here from the U.S., Cuba or even Colombia. Never from Brasil. Most Brazilians Blacks look less Black than you think. Do you know Brazil? Have you visited the north, the south, the west, or just have seen pictures from Bahia.
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Again if your referring to your above quote you'll have to do better than that darling.
You don't see it?. The population growth of the descendents of Spanish and Portugueses has NO PARALLEL in recent history. From a population of about 6 millions they have today around 600 millions of descendents. Not all of them are "pure" but they are descendents anyways. Indians also survived in their mixed descency. 1/4 of the genetic make up of Latin America is still Indian. No kidding.
Take a look at history and to genetics. They tell a lot more about the REAL world that you think.
Please see the pictures of Salssasin, and they let's talk again.
Posted: Thu 01 Jun 2006 14:26 Post subject: Re: JODIE Versus Oevega and Salassin
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Hi Jodie,
Hi again
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You are the one that don't have the full picture. Sorry to say it but is true.
Chile grows faster than Brazil, for example. The scale of poverty of Brazil does not exist in their neighbours down south.
Again your living in denial..just like George Bush when he said the war in Iraq was "mission accomplished". Sure there is poverty now, but 15 - 30 years from now when Brazil has long lived off it's own fuel and overcome many of it's economic hardships due to it's sheer size and expanding influence. Like I said..next China..get read to be their tail mister Chile ..kinda like how Britain is for us in America...ya our TAIL. hehe
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Well, Argentina has a bigger per capita product that Chile and what? You were comparing Brazil and Chile, don't you?
No I was just getting your fact's straight that's all. You said the best economy was Chile, I was just correcting that. If you want to compare Chile to Argentina be my guest "amigo."
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No doubt Brazilians women are pretty.
Everyone say's the best.
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Yes, they are. But if you ask me, I preffer Brazilian blond girls of the south.
Why got o Brazil for a blonde girl? Why not Germany. Brazil is unique because of it's multiracial people and culture. As much as that probably angers all the monoracial's on here it's just a fact. Just look at it. It's place of great diversity. Either way most people go down there for the Tri-racial's, mulatta's, or brunette (with small mixture) Portugues descent types..if their seeking to court a Brasiliera.
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Native culture did not survive in those regions, except in some very interesting cases. Native genetics is alive and well.
I agree, alive in well but in amount's less than that of the African one.
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Do you speak Spanish or Portuguese?
Espanol...never really interested me..no offense...but I get some of it..
Portugues - Falo
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Ask any people of the Hispanic Caribbeans about their Taino roots. Please ask them before you insist so much in that point. Taino cultural influences are very important in those regions. Not only that, genetics has show important percentage of Native ancestry in all those populations. Natives mixed, cultures dissapeared, but their descendents are still alive and well, and are quite numerous.
They may admit to it but one thing for sure is that most of them no darn well it pales in comparisson to their African and European root's. Hence most of hispanic carribean is still and will likely remain mulatto like for a long time. As I said the biggest native mixture in the Carribean is PR. Native land (big native amount's)..Central America (yes including Mexico if you want)..and down to western (up to Argentina, but some here) and centralwestern South America. The rest..mainly mulatto
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It looks like you just don't WANT to believe in something is already known.
No that's you darling..not me. I am educating you and Sally
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That's not what EDUCATED Cubans say.
Educated? Lol...regardless if they are Cuba has small native ancestry. It may be in everyone's blood but the proportion at which it is is very negligible. NOW THE EDUCATED CUBA'S I KNOW...would say they have NONE..and yes we are talking about doctorate's, professors, etc. Besides I wouldn't trust your "educated cuban." You biased old man you
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Well, then get informed. Never is too late to learn something.
Never had to, it simply doesn't exist. Your word over the many Brasiliero's I know? LOL..ya right. YOU GET INFORMED "Mr. Chile"
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Well, you got the right to have an opinion.
As do you.
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Do you know how fast Chile grows?
Something like 5% a year. Brazil on the other hand is around 2.75%. Now check this sweetie. 20 years ago Brazil was not even growing as a matter of fact it was negative like - 12% a year (during the time they had a military dicatorship). Chile..has been at 5% for the past 20 year's, Brazil's growth factor (according to a professor I know) is something like 1% each year. Yes 3-5 years they'll grow as fast as you. But then again remember Brazil dwarf's Chile.
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Not in your wildest dream. Brazil has an important industrial base, but does not mean will become the dominant power. The rest is not sleeping.
That's why Brazil want to work will all the rest of the countries of the region, together.
Yes now, but not when it become's the next USA of South America lol. Funny how the greatest power in South America will actually be a minority (speaking Portugues). Can't wait for the next 15 years to see it shine. I love Brazilian people ..they deserve it and they worked hard for it. There are many problem's there sure, like still racism and still a vast gap between the rich and poor but a nation with basically 200 million people which covers half of South America and on the verge of being fuel independent with a vast poor into education spending and professors, educators, technology, is definitely unique.
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Look. Brazil is a nice neighbour. We all feel like brothers down south. So why do we need nuclear weapons for?
To protect yourself from the big boys..aka USA, Britain, China.. Nuclear weapon's are more of a deterrent then of an act of agression. Then again I'm not surprised you new that..an un-educated Chilean...lovely..
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China is our best ally. If you does not know that already. China is working with us in developing already.
LOL, they work with everybody, don't feel special there. Really, you shouldn't.
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You are the one BIASED. Yes, you believe that Canada is not part of Latin America. Lol. What a biased idea.Canadians are blonds so they can't be Latin Americans. Ha Ha
Canadian's are Latin American's now? Woah...
Silly old man
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Brazilians learn Spanish at school, and people cross the frontiers without problems. No dear. You are the one that does not know the region.
And Cubans? Well, they even dance FLAMENCO if you don't know it. Ask Dominicans about the COLUMBUS monument as well.
Yes, you need to study the region more.
Some Brazilian's learn spanish in school. Most (99%) don't. Lol my girlfriend Paula from SP never said they learned Spanish in school and she is one of the quadroon brunettee Portugues well educated types. White white, indeed lol. Equally so Even the one's mulatto or tri-racial never said that in any of our conversatino's. Oh about the Flamenco..you mean those pretty Mulatta's in DR and Cuba dance to it and Salsa? Yes I know..just as those pretty Mulatta's in Brazil dance to Samba (a lot of the small mixed with white/Black brazilian's dance to it too)
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Suriname is a country of the region. No doubt about it. Have you ever heared the expression "Latin America and the Caribbean"? That's said so they include all the countries south of the border.
Your a hypocrit. You want Canada to be part of Latin America but not Suriname. Hmmm I wonder why? Not enough blonde's there? LOL actually there is a good number of them maybe 5%? A Hyporcirt and a liar. I hope most Chilean's aren't like you. No wonder no one know's or hears abotu your country. By the way your country has one of the weirdest configuration's in the world..a long strip? LOL..I always feel like I have to tip to across your country when I look at it on the map because it looks so damn thin and worthless. LOL
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However, the definition of Latin America only includes those countries were the OFFICIAL languages are Spanish, Portuguese and French. Countries like Suriname, Belize, Jamaica, Bermudas and Trinidad Tobago are not considered in Latin America. They are good fellows, but they have a different culture and history.
Says who? You are also a Latin American' one dropist? That stupid anyways because why can't people who speak English be latin american? I guess it all depends on perspective. Idiot's. Besides no Brazilian I know would ever want anything to do with your "Latin America" or Hispanic america. The only people that know those words are people from North America and a few from South America actually like you. I don't know of Colombian's saying I am LATIN AMERICAN. Those words are a north american thing mainly so I don't know why you are appealed to it. In South america the people are one, one culture, it's so comfortable there, I wouldn't be surprised of most of Spanish South America laugh at the word too. I definitely know the Brazilian's either laugh or give me a facial reaction of this when I mentino it ->
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Well, then we will have to say them to stop to assist to the thousands of Latino conventions they always go. Brazilians have never been considered outsiders. Have not you hear about Mercosur? The interchange between Brazil and Latin America is massive and real, of goods and people.
I'm not saying there is no contact or decent interchange..w/e. But Brazilian's are definitely a people I know that never talk about your area. They seem so pre-occupied with their beautiful country that they seemt o never care about the "Spaniard's"
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Suriname has a Dutch and Brit culture. By culture they are a lot closer to the U.S. and Canada than to Latin America. That's the difference.
Ya but you still want to include Canada? Again besides what I said your still a hypocrit.
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No. I did not say so. In Cuba and Dominican Republic the Black genetics and heritage is VERY important. However, like Juan Luis Guerra say in one of his songs: they are a mixed race that is Black, White and Taino. Not birracial but tri-racial.
Ya I agree but the native as I always say is very negligible that it's not even worth pointing out sometimes. If you want to get specific then sure mention it all you want.
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And they don't forget they are ALSO Taino.
Most, some were of different Native's such as the Arawak.
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Not so much so. What happens is that you could not distinguish a Chinese from an Australian Aborigin.
No I could, you clearly have a mestizo one dropist attitude on everything. I suppose Polynesian's are mestizo to right? Silly.
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There, Natives are the main or the second minority. In the Caribbean they are third. That's your difference.
Third but negligble again like in Brazil.
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In that you are wrong. By the way, why do you want to kill the Indians once again? Why do you get upset because in Latin America we know Indians exist?
Wrong in your opinion. Besides sweetie you never told me how you old tard. About the Indian's I never wanted to kill them nor did I state that. Your just making ignorant assumption's and biased one's to suite your pathetic mestizo one dropist agenda imo. I am also not upset that Indian's still exist in Latin America though pure blooded one's are a very small minority..except in places like Uruguay and stuff. But for me you seem to be upset that places like Brazil, Cuba, DR, Belize, etc are the far majority Mulatto like or Tri-racial with a more distinct side toward's the Mulatto like..like the soccer player Ronaldo or Ronaldinho or Guzo, etc. Mestizo's are numerous sure..but in the places you mentioned. Now go play with Sally, I'm sure you two buddies are more than just the "average friend's." If you get my drift..lol.
Posted: Thu 01 Jun 2006 14:51 Post subject: Re: JODIE Versus Oevega and Salassin
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Obviously you do not know how to read.
No obviously you don't because I have to keep educating you on this issue Sally.
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One, I said ABOUT equally divided.
Yes with European and African but Native no.
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And your stats are pretty incorrect.
No not really, I think yours are incorrect because I actually do have links you just copy and paste what could be random crap.
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The problem is most Native Ancestry just blended in with that of the major populations, either dominant or enslaved. I actually have all three ancestries and more.
In Brazil I agree but again remember it's negligible.
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If you look at many Native Amazonians (and some other Native populations as well), their features lend themselves to be interpreted as mulato when mixed in the population.
Not really, maybe for you. I could tell a difference.
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There is a reason the Olmecs constantly are claimed by Afrocentrics. Because people ignore the fact that broad faces also exist in the Native populations.
But remember those aren't mulatto type's speaking those are idiot one dropist blacks pushing their bs again. So caught your tongue there again.
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Again, I gave the stats from GENETIC tests. Not biased occular assumptions based on culturasl experiences.
Any statistic you provide could be biased. The National Geographic is equally credible in my opinion.
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Again you show your ignorance. Brazil may have raw resources, but it also has a much higher level of corruption. Go look up the "Marajas." Chile is more like Switzerland and other countries with lesser resources and population but who have become centric in their technology and services providers. Per capita is the true indicator of wealth in a country.
Yes but small countries will never grow to be super power's and that is what you and your bum buddy Oevega seem to deny constnatly. Brazil unlike Chile will surpass it. Think of it like this so you guys get it through your thick head's..
1) Brazil and Chile are in a race
2) This is a long distance race (life, society, going on)
3) Chile sprint's first but only covers 1/100th of the distance
4) Brazil is behind at first
5) When 1/99th of the distance is covered Brazil speeds up
6) Chile remain's it's pace but can't keep up with the Brazilian runner's speed that keeps accelerating
7) When 1/50th of the distance is covered Brazil is LONG GONE, and Chile is no where to be seen
Ya that easy. Need I compare the USA and Britian. Damn..go back to school Sally.
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LMAO. Onme, I have actually been to Brazil, so you are preaching to the crowd as to its accomplishments. Argentina is another Giant, but corruption and debt is exorbitant as well. Until they fix that, they will not have the same economic status as Chile. Level of education per capita is another indicator.
Yes we all know the basic's. But as soon as you understand reality and future you will stop your "Hispanic pride" against the Brasiliero's. They beat you in everything, you just fear the worst, them beating you economically and they already have with most of your countrie's. Just a matter of time until ALL..
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Biased crap? LMAO. SOunds like a sad attempt at writing off evidence you can't rebutt. I gave the link. You were just too dumb to notice.
I did rebutt it, claiming that even if it wasn't biased remember the admixture of native blood is negligible. Now that you remember LMAO, is that a biased excuse to write off my position that destroy's your own. Seems so newbie boy
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You have failed to address this claim from the study.
Give me a link please because I remember reading that same statistic and found that the number's were actually different. Editing them won't get you anywhere Sally. Sad you'd go through that just fit your biased mestizo agenda.
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Now in Y-Chromosome contributions, native is much less, but the fact remains the contribution was significant. And considering this debate started from you trying to write off the significant population of Indigenous mixies, you still are sounding like an ass.
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Again, ignorance. 'triracial' is also considered mestizo. AfroIndigenous. AfroMestizo or Mestizo. Depends on the region.
Again this part is what kills all your point's (assuming you didn't edit thing's). Even if it is there, it is so negligible. Again there is no area in Brazil for mestizo's like there are for the mulatto/quad-roon/tri-racial types like in Carioca land, SP, Belo Horizonte, Fortaleza, Bahia, etc..
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LMAO like wikipedia supersedes the definition of the Royal Academy of Spain.
Royal Academy of Spain? LOL, screw that Spanish biasm. You went to the heart of Spanish people for that. Dang, desperation to cope up with someone superior in these BASIC studies.
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While indigenous mixes with Europeans are focused on more. All mixes are mestizos. And if you knew anything, in many countries with high Afrodecent populations, mestizo has also been used to describe triancestral and Afr-indigenous people whop did not have as marked an African ancestry.
Well then we go back to perspective and personal opinion. If you want to take it that way then you'll never get anywhere with any of your position's.
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Wrong as usual. I can back up all my claims.
No your wrong as usual but statistics are fine here (though you didn't provide a link). Your main problem is that you just didn't interpret what was right in front of your face properly. I'll provide a link unlike yourself. Your just bring forth so much biasm it's sad Sally. Here take a look
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/rq.html#People
As I've always said most of Puerto Rico's population of multiracial's are mixed with black and whtie with some tint of native. Look at the native population lol only...0.4% compared to 8% black..no what are the chances native ancestry will be more than that of black. Again proved wrong Sally..nothing special there.
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I see you did not address the article.
and I see you didn't address my own statistics.
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And obviously admixture that went into the main population just became "Spanish".
Again the Spanish in PR would be considred by many American's as not white. Just ask some American's and let them take a look at some of them.
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Nice try, your immature antics make you treat you like a child. As you don't know how to post as an adult. Want a lollypop?
You treat you like a child? WTF..was that a joke? Hope so, because your grammar was lacking there darling. Take the lolly pop darling and serve it to yourself. I'm thinking your a teenager considering I have to keep educating about all this.
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Wishful thinking is always entertaining.
Yes lol, it is Sally. Glad you pointed a weakness about yourself.
Posted: Thu 01 Jun 2006 15:00 Post subject: Re: JODIE Versus Oevega and Salassin
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Sorry. My mother language is from Spain, not from the lands of the germanic tribes of northen Europe.
Oh, then um, learn English. Your on a predominantly English forum ok? Good to know next time sweetie Set an example for all the other mestizo's that come in here illegally and refuse to learn our language. That'd be nice
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Mestizos were treated like whites in most colonies south of the border, and they did have lots of kids. I can tell you.
Even if that was true, they aren't treated like that here with a lot of people. Because they pick so many of our crops they are looked down upon. Even more so then blacks. Yikes..
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False. The majority in Brazil IS European descendent with some Native ancestry (55%). And about HALF of those brown people that people usually count as Black are Indians. Count straigh hair people in Brazil. Indians are dark in Brazil and when they migrate to cities are almost impossible to distinguish from the average Brazilian!
Again mestizo one dropism living itself up again. Your so lame with that. Try something new for once. Everyone know's that the majority of Brazil is black mixed or quad-roon. About 65% of the population is mulatto/quad-roon/tri-racial together. The rest white or octo-roon black. Mestizo's very small not even worth mentioning. The native only come's out in the tri-racial's which are very numerous.
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Moreover, I have seen pure Blacks comming here from the U.S., Cuba or even Colombia. Never from Brasil. Most Brazilians Blacks look less Black than you think. Do you know Brazil? Have you visited the north, the south, the west, or just have seen pictures from Bahia.
Of course. Don't know what your lame point is here. Sally touch a "weak" spot there, confuse you?
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You don't see it?. The population growth of the descendents of Spanish and Portugueses has NO PARALLEL in recent history. From a population of about 6 millions they have today around 600 millions of descendents. Not all of them are "pure" but they are descendents anyways. Indians also survived in their mixed descency. 1/4 of the genetic make up of Latin America is still Indian. No kidding.
Ok...that's just misc, has nothing to do with our discussion. I agree..
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Take a look at history and to genetics. They tell a lot more about the REAL world that you think.
If you believe what you believe then please re-look at your own genetics again. Neither you nor your bum buddy Sally could provide credible links. Copy and paste is all you do. I have to keep posting links. The most you can do is scrounge of a picture of a native or mestizo. You'll have to do better amateurs.
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Please see the pictures of Salssasin, and they let's talk again.
Show.
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In English, unfortunatelly.
English? Is there a problem with English? Just so you know it's regarded as the language of the international world.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Thu 01 Jun 2006 15:22 Post subject: Re: JODIE Versus Oevega and Salassin
jodie wrote:
...
Again your living in denial..
Attacking what you think is denial. Pretty funny. Ha Ha
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but 15 - 30 years from now when Brazil has long lived off it's own fuel and overcome many of it's economic hardships due to it's sheer size and expanding influence. Like I said..next China..get read to be their tail mister Chile
Well, I have a Brazilian fellow that always say "Brazil is the land of the future and it will always be".
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No I was just getting your fact's straight that's all. You said the best economy was Chile, I was just correcting that. If you want to compare Chile to Argentina be my guest "amigo."
No trates de hablar castellano si no lo conoces. A ti no te he visto ni en pintura, por lo cual es dificil que seas un amigo ¿De acuerdo?
Anyways, you'll be surprise how many Argentineans come to Chile to work. Do you guess why?
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Everyone say's the best.
Pretty women are everywhere. It everyone choice what women founds pretty.
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Why got o Brazil for a blonde girl? Why not Germany.
Because Brazilian and Latin blond are prettier than Germans. Don't ask me why. And Brazilian blonds are the prettiest of all Brazilian women. At least in my oppinion.
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Brazil is unique because of it's multiracial people and culture. As much as that probably angers all the monoracial's on here it's just a fact. Just look at it. It's place of great diversity. Either way most people go down there for the Tri-racial's, mulatta's, or brunette (with small mixture) Portugues descent types..if their seeking to court a Brasiliera.
All Latin America is multi-racial. So what.
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Native culture did not survive in those regions, except in some very interesting cases. Native genetics is alive and well.
I agree, alive in well but in amount's less than that of the African one.
It varies from region to region.
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Espanol...never really interested me..no offense...but I get some of it..
Portugues - Falo
That's fine
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They may admit to it but one thing for sure is that most of them no darn well it pales in comparisson to their African and European root's.
That's your mistake. You believe in the "Black legend". Nothing to do with Africans. The Black legend is the idea of the genocide of Natives in the Americas by the Spaniards.
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Hence most of hispanic carribean is still and will likely remain mulatto like for a long time.
Tainos' descendents are alive and well in the Hispanic Caribbean. They is a growing concience they really exist. Is not a myth.
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As I said the biggest native mixture in the Carribean is PR. Native land (big native amount's)..Central America (yes including Mexico if you want)..and down to western (up to Argentina, but some here) and centralwestern South America.
Yes. That region has lot of more people that the Caribbean.
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The rest..mainly mulatto
There is nothing left.
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No that's you darling..not me. I am educating you and Sally
On what? Fantasies?
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Educated? Lol...regardless if they are Cuba has small native ancestry. It may be in everyone's blood but the proportion at which it is is very negligible.
Ask the experts then.
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NOW THE EDUCATED CUBA'S I KNOW...would say they have NONE..and yes we are talking about doctorate's, professors, etc. Besides I wouldn't trust your "educated cuban." You biased old man you
There are many doctors that speak just crap. For instance, the doctors that created Afrocentrism.
Biassed on what? I have always biassed for facts! Young fellow.
What do you want to show? That Latin America is Africa? That Brazil is Africa? No. It they aren't.
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Do you know how fast Chile grows?
Something like 5% a year. Brazil on the other hand is around 2.75%. Now check this sweetie. 20 years ago Brazil was not even growing as a matter of fact it was negative like - 12% a year (during the time they had a military dicatorship). Chile..has been at 5% for the past 20 year's, Brazil's growth factor (according to a professor I know) is something like 1% each year. Yes 3-5 years they'll grow as fast as you. But then again remember Brazil dwarf's Chile.
Remember what I said. Brazil is the land of the future...
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Yes now, but not when it become's the next USA of South America lol. Funny how the greatest power in South America will actually be a minority (speaking Portugues). Can't wait for the next 15 years to see it shine. I love Brazilian people ..they deserve it and they worked hard for it. There are many problem's there sure, like still racism and still a vast gap between the rich and poor but a nation with basically 200 million people which covers half of South America and on the verge of being fuel independent with a vast poor into education spending and professors, educators, technology, is definitely unique.
Let's pray for it.
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To protect yourself from the big boys..aka USA, Britain, China.. Nuclear weapon's are more of a deterrent then of an act of agression. Then again I'm not surprised you new that..an un-educated Chilean...lovely..
The U.S., China and Israel are the best allies of Chile. What do we need Brazil for?
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LOL, they work with everybody, don't feel special there. Really, you shouldn't.
Chinese are a nice people. It they want to come to my country they are very welcomed.
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You are the one BIASED. Yes, you believe that Canada is not part of Latin America. Lol. What a biased idea.Canadians are blonds so they can't be Latin Americans. Ha Ha
Canadian's are Latin American's now? Woah...
Silly old man
No Young fellow. What I mean is that Canada IS NOT part of Latin America (even with Quebec on it) and Suriname IS NOT EITHER.
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Some Brazilian's learn spanish in school. Most (99%) don't. Lol my girlfriend Paula from SP never said they learned Spanish in school and she is one of the quadroon brunettee Portugues well educated types. White white, indeed lol. Equally so Even the one's mulatto or tri-racial never said that in any of our conversatino's. Oh about the Flamenco..you mean those pretty Mulatta's in DR and Cuba dance to it and Salsa? Yes I know..just as those pretty Mulatta's in Brazil dance to Samba (a lot of the small mixed with white/Black brazilian's dance to it too)
Brazil has Fado not Flamenco. Brazil european branch is Portuguese not Hispanic.
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Your a hypocrit. You want Canada to be part of Latin America but not Suriname.
You layer!
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Hmmm I wonder why? Not enough blonde's there?
Canada is full of chineses. Don't you know.
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LOL actually there is a good number of them maybe 5%? A Hyporcirt and a liar. I hope most Chilean's aren't like you. No wonder no one know's or hears abotu your country. By the way your country has one of the weirdest configuration's in the world..a long strip? LOL..I always feel like I have to tip to across your country when I look at it on the map because it looks so damn thin and worthless. LOL
You are wrong. My country is one of the prettiest in the world. Just because of the variety of climates and landscapes. You don't need to visit it though.
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Says who? You are also a Latin American' one dropist?
Don't be silly. If you don't know what the terms Hispanic America, Iberian America, Caribbean and Latin America means IS NOT MY FAULT.
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That stupid anyways because why can't people who speak English be latin american?
How ignorant are you. Sorry but I can't help on that.
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I guess it all depends on perspective. Idiot's. Besides no Brazilian I know would ever want anything to do with your "Latin America" or Hispanic america.
Yes. Most Brazilians travel very little.
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I'm not saying there is no contact or decent interchange..w/e. But Brazilian's are definitely a people I know that never talk about your area. They seem so pre-occupied with their beautiful country that they seemt o never care about the "Spaniard's"
Good for Brazilians. In fact, the ones that I know have lots in common with us.
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Ya but you still want to include Canada? Again besides what I said your still a hypocrit.
And you still don't go back to your books. Bad
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Ya I agree but the native as I always say is very negligible that it's not even worth pointing out sometimes. If you want to get specific then sure mention it all you want.
50% mtDNA negligible? Ha!, once again.
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Most, some were of different Native's such as the Arawak.
Yes. Good point.
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No I could, you clearly have a mestizo one dropist attitude on everything. I suppose Polynesian's are mestizo to right? Silly.
And you have an Afrocentric attitude. Every thing you see is Black, don't you? Even Beethoven?
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Third but negligble again like in Brazil.
Again with the say myth. Lay and Lay like Goebbels.
You are an Afrocentric totalitarian, young fellow. Wake up!
Nope wrong again. They speak many languages there though English and Dutch is their main. Suriname is part of Latin America. They have many Iberian's (mainly from descendents of portugueese blood Northern Brazil)
Actually, Suriname, like many other places in the Caribbean, has a Portuguese population that descended primarily from indentured servants. Simply having many Iberian descendants doesn't make your society Latin American. Though Spanish is spoken by some there,culturally, Suriname is part of the Caribbean (non Spanish speaking) or the West Indies.
If the existence of Iberian people or Iberian minority language outposts makes a whole country Latin American, Aruba, Bonaire, Curacao, Trinidad and Tobago would also be a part of Latin Amerca. Spanish is spoken by a sizable percentage of the population of the Netherland Antillies, perhaps the majority. Their native creole language, Papiamento, is a Portuguese/African creole language, but we do not see these people as Latin American.
Spanish was the colonial language of Trinidad until the early 19th Century. There are populations of "Caribs" -people who are descended from the Carib Indians and Venezuelan migrant workers on the island. Many of them maintain traditions in music that harken back to Venezuela, and there are a scant few who still speak Spanish. Neither they nor the Island as whole are considered Latin American, though some of these people are seen as "Spanish" by others on the island.
Posted: Thu 01 Jun 2006 16:11 Post subject: Re: JODIE Versus Oevega and Salassin
jodida wrote:
No obviously you don't because I have to keep educating you on this issue Sally.
This girl seriously does not have a clue. She can respond all she wants, but she CAN'T PRESENT ANY EVIDENCE for her claims
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No not really, I think yours are incorrect because I actually do have links you just copy and paste what could be random crap.
Yeah, a scientific website is random crap.
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In Brazil I agree but again remember it's negligible.
Again, evidence. Look at rules of forum.
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Not really, maybe for you. I could tell a difference.
Just like you know how to look at evidence. My point is that once the mixture has occured, many Indigenous ancestries are confused as African.
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But remember those aren't mulatto type's speaking those are idiot one dropist blacks pushing their bs again. So caught your tongue there again.
Yeah, that is why so many Afrodescent people on mixed forums also make the claim.
Afrocentrism is not exclusive to One droppists.
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Any statistic you provide could be biased. The National Geographic is equally credible in my opinion.
If you are making a claim of a source, then provide the National Geographic article.
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Yes but small countries will never grow to be super power's and that is what you and your bum buddy Oevega seem to deny constnatly. Brazil unlike Chile will surpass it. Think of it like this so you guys get it through your thick head's..
LMAO. SOrry to tell you this, but size is no gouarantee of Superpowerdom
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1) Brazil and Chile are in a race
2) This is a long distance race (life, society, going on)
3) Chile sprint's first but only covers 1/100th of the distance
4) Brazil is behind at first
5) When 1/99th of the distance is covered Brazil speeds up
6) Chile remain's it's pace but can't keep up with the Brazilian runner's speed that keeps accelerating
7) When 1/50th of the distance is covered Brazil is LONG GONE, and Chile is no where to be seen
Your delusion is highly entertaining. ALL countries compete in economics.
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Ya that easy. Need I compare the USA and Britian. Damn..go back to school Sally.
Mexico is bigger than Spain. Did you have a point?
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Yes we all know the basic's. But as soon as you understand reality and future you will stop your "Hispanic pride" against the Brasiliero's. They beat you in everything, you just fear the worst, them beating you economically and they already have with most of your countrie's. Just a matter of time until ALL..
Again, where is your evidence?
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I did rebutt it, claiming that even if it wasn't biased remember the admixture of native blood is negligible. Now that you remember LMAO, is that a biased excuse to write off my position that destroy's your own. Seems so newbie boy
Again. Evidence please.
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Give me a link please because I remember reading that same statistic and found that the number's were actually different. Editing them won't get you anywhere Sally. Sad you'd go through that just fit your biased mestizo agenda.
Now you make fraudulent claims as I have given the link and directly pasted from there.
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Again this part is what kills all your point's (assuming you didn't edit thing's). Even if it is there, it is so negligible. Again there is no area in Brazil for mestizo's like there are for the mulatto/quad-roon/tri-racial types like in Carioca land, SP, Belo Horizonte, Fortaleza, Bahia, etc..
As you throw in tri-racial (which is one definition of Mestizo)
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Royal Academy of Spain? LOL, screw that Spanish biasm. You went to the heart of Spanish people for that. Dang, desperation to cope up with someone superior in these BASIC studies.
You use a spanish word and you have a problem with a Spanish definition. You are truly sad.
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Well then we go back to perspective and personal opinion. If you want to take it that way then you'll never get anywhere with any of your position's.
Nice try, I have given support for all my claims, thus they are more than just opinion. The same can not be said of your claims.
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No your wrong as usual but statistics are fine here (though you didn't provide a link). Your main problem is that you just didn't interpret what was right in front of your face properly. I'll provide a link unlike yourself. Your just bring forth so much biasm it's sad Sally.
Again you make a fraudulent claim as the link was provided multiple times.
The CIA fact book is just a reporting of a census, not a genetic study. Sorry.
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As I've always said most of Puerto Rico's population of multiracial's are mixed with black and whtie with some tint of native. Look at the native population lol only...0.4% compared to 8% black..no what are the chances native ancestry will be more than that of black. Again proved wrong Sally..nothing special there.
All your sad adhominems aside, again you have failed to provide evidence, like others on this board other than census that determine ethnic perception, not actual ancestry.
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and I see you didn't address my own statistics.
Again a fraudulent claim. Seems to be your modus operandi.
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Again the Spanish in PR would be considred by many American's as not white. Just ask some American's and let them take a look at some of them.
But Americans don't do the Census over there, do they.
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You treat you like a child? WTF..was that a joke? Hope so, because your grammar was lacking there darling. Take the lolly pop darling and serve it to yourself. I'm thinking your a teenager considering I have to keep educating about all this.
Cute antics from a child but you still can't back up your claims.
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Yes lol, it is Sally. Glad you pointed a weakness about yourself.
This debate has been wandering all over the map and stepping over the ad hominem line for some time now. I request that Salsassin succinctly state the three most egregious factual claims (as opposed to opinions) that Jodie has made. Once this is done, I ask Jodie to provide peer-reviewed sources for those three claims. Failing this, I shall close the topic because it is adding nothing to the body of knowledge.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Thu 01 Jun 2006 16:46 Post subject: Re: JODIE Versus Oevega and Salassin
jodie wrote:
..Oh, then um, learn English. Your on a predominantly English forum ok? Good to know next time sweetie Set an example for all the other mestizo's that come in here illegally and refuse to learn our language. That'd be nice
You make me laugh. You are unbelievable.
I don't speak English in an English country since 1991!!!!
Why do I need to improve my English for?
I am in Chile
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Even if that was true, they aren't treated like that here with a lot of people. Because they pick so many of our crops they are looked down upon. Even more so then blacks. Yikes..
Wrong again. Don't you know many whites in the U.S. are also Meti?
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Again mestizo one dropism living itself up again. Your so lame with that. Try something new for once. Everyone know's that the majority of Brazil is black mixed or quad-roon.
What? Where do you get that?
What happens is that you use the one-drop rule to count Blacks.
Ha! and you acusse me of applying the one drop rule
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About 65% of the population is mulatto/quad-roon/tri-racial together.The rest white or octo-roon black. Mestizo's very small not even worth mentioning. The native only come's out in the tri-racial's which are very numerous.
Where do you got those statistics? From Diop?
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Of course. Don't know what your lame point is here. Sally touch a "weak" spot there, confuse you?
No. You are the one confussed. I was talking about the BLACK MINORITY of Brazil.
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You don't see it?. The population growth of the descendents of Spanish and Portugueses has NO PARALLEL in recent history. From a population of about 6 millions they have today around 600 millions of descendents. Not all of them are "pure" but they are descendents anyways. Indians also survived in their mixed descency. 1/4 of the genetic make up of Latin America is still Indian. No kidding.
Ok...that's just misc, has nothing to do with our discussion. I agree..
OK.
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If you believe what you believe then please re-look at your own genetics again. Neither you nor your bum buddy Sally could provide credible links. Copy and paste is all you do. I have to keep posting links. The most you can do is scrounge of a picture of a native or mestizo. You'll have to do better amateurs.
Amateurs yes. However, as I told you, you would not recognize a Mestizo if you got it on front of you. Most of people you BELIEVE are mestizo are pure Indians. Like most Mexicans are.
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Please see the pictures of Salssasin, and they let's talk again.
Show.
Just rewind. They ARE ABOVE.
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English? Is there a problem with English? Just so you know it's regarded as the language of the international world.
Yes. But how come you force me to write proper English if you know I don't live in an English speaking country. Is not that another form of discrimination? Think about it
This debate has been wandering all over the map and stepping over the ad hominem line for some time now. I request that Salsassin succinctly state the three most egregious factual claims (as opposed to opinions) that Jodie has made. Once this is done, I ask Jodie to provide peer-reviewed sources for those three claims. Failing this, I shall close the topic because it is adding nothing to the body of knowledge.
Here is the gist of her claims of negligible admixture:
jodie wrote:
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The problem is most Native Ancestry just blended in with that of the major populations, either dominant or enslaved. I actually have all three ancestries and more.
In Brazil I agree but again remember it's negligible.
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Again, I gave the stats from GENETIC tests. Not biased occular assumptions based on culturasl experiences.
Any statistic you provide could be biased. The National Geographic is equally credible in my opinion.
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Give me a link please because I remember reading that same statistic and found that the number's were actually different. Editing them won't get you anywhere Sally. Sad you'd go through that just fit your biased mestizo agenda.
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Again this part is what kills all your point's (assuming you didn't edit thing's). Even if it is there, it is so negligible. Again there is no area in Brazil for mestizo's like there are for the mulatto/quad-roon/tri-racial types like in Carioca land, SP, Belo Horizonte, Fortaleza, Bahia, etc..
She keeps on claiming I did not provide a link and or that I altered the facts mentioned in the article.
Juliana Alves-Silva,1 Magda da Silva Santos,1 Pedro E. M. Guimarães,1 Alessandro C. S. Ferreira,1 Hans-Jürgen Bandelt,2 Sérgio D. J. Pena,1 and Vania Ferreira Prado1
1Departamento de Bioquímica e Imunologia, Universidade Federal de Minas Gerais, Belo Horizonte-MG, Brazil; and 2 Fachbereich Mathematik, Universität Hamburg, Hamburg
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Thu 01 Jun 2006 18:47 Post subject: conclusion
Hi,
Perhaps Jodie just needs to see the conclusion. I marked the one important in relation with Amerindians.
Omar
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In conclusion, our mtDNA study of a random sample of white Brazilians has revealed an astonishingly high matrilineal contribution of Amerindians and Africans. Present-day Brazilians thus still carry the genetic imprint of the early-colonization phase: the pioneer-colonial population typically had Amerindian ancestry—and, after few generations, increasingly African ancestry—in the maternal line but Portuguese ancestry in the paternal line (as is reflected by Y-chromosome markers [D. R. Carvalho-Silva, F. R. Santos, and S. D. J. Pena, unpublished results]).
I request that Salsassin succinctly state the three most egregious factual claims (as opposed to opinions) that Jodie has made.
Salsassin wrote:
That Brazilians have negligible Amerind genetic admixture, that any source might be biased, and that Salsassin failed to cite a source for Brazilian admixture.
Okay. Now it is up to Jodie. Regarding the first point, please provide a peer-reviewed genetic source suggesting that Brazilians have negligible Amerind admixture.
Regarding the second point, if Jodie is suggesting that peer-reviewed genetic studies are biased, I suggest that Jodie has wandered into the wrong website. Please read the site rules. Peer-reviewed publications may be in error or biased, but they are what we study in this site.
Regarding the third point, clearly Salsassin has cited his source. Was Jodie's claim an error or prevarication? If the former, I expect a retraction. If the latter, I suggest that Jodie consider going to a different website, one less strict.
Joined: 10 Mar 2006 {Posts: 235 } Location: Atlanta
Posted: Tue 06 Jun 2006 21:01 Post subject:
G-Man wrote:
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Nope wrong again. They speak many languages there though English and Dutch is their main. Suriname is part of Latin America. They have many Iberian's (mainly from descendents of portugueese blood Northern Brazil)
Actually, Suriname, like many other places in the Caribbean, has a Portuguese population that descended primarily from indentured servants. Simply having many Iberian descendants doesn't make your society Latin American. Though Spanish is spoken by some there,culturally, Suriname is part of the Caribbean (non Spanish speaking) or the West Indies.
If the existence of Iberian people or Iberian minority language outposts makes a whole country Latin American, Aruba, Bonaire, Curacao, Trinidad and Tobago would also be a part of Latin Amerca. Spanish is spoken by a sizable percentage of the population of the Netherland Antillies, perhaps the majority. Their native creole language, Papiamento, is a Portuguese/African creole language, but we do not see these people as Latin American.
Spanish was the colonial language of Trinidad until the early 19th Century. There are populations of "Caribs" -people who are descended from the Carib Indians and Venezuelan migrant workers on the island. Many of them maintain traditions in music that harken back to Venezuela, and there are a scant few who still speak Spanish. Neither they nor the Island as whole are considered Latin American, though some of these people are seen as "Spanish" by others on the island.
I was under the impression that the people in Surinam with Portuguese surnames (such as Fernandes) were either Jewish or mulattoes of partially Jewish descent.
While Trinidad was a Spanish colony until 1797, because of a large immigration of planters and slaves from Martinique in 1783 the vernacular spoken in Trinidad was for a long time a French-based Creole.
Persons of Amerindian descent in Trinidad are generally called 'Spanish'.
Joined: 10 Mar 2006 {Posts: 235 } Location: Atlanta
Posted: Wed 07 Jun 2006 15:37 Post subject:
Salsassin wrote:
A lot of Sephardic Jews.
Well, yes. The 18th century Sephardic community in Surinam lived in the town of Joden Savanne (Jews' Savannah), now an archaelogical site. To this day, Paramaribo supports two synagogues (one of which is located next door to the largest mosque in South America).
I was under the impression that the people in Surinam with Portuguese surnames (such as Fernandes) were either Jewish or mulattoes of partially Jewish descent.
Oops...I was thinking of Trinidad. Thanks for the correction.
Well, yes. The 18th century Sephardic community in Surinam lived in the town of Joden Savanne (Jews' Savannah), now an archaelogical site. To this day, Paramaribo supports two synagogues (one of which is located next door to the largest mosque in South America).
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..they deserve it and they worked hard for it. There are many problem's there sure, like still racism and still a vast gap between the rich and poor but a nation with basically 200 million people which covers half of South America and on the verge of being fuel independent with a vast poor into education spending and professors, educators, technology, is definitely unique.
