By Jennifer Carlile
Reporter
MSNBC
Updated: 1 hour, 21 minutes ago
COLLE DI VAL D'ELSA, Italy — For hundreds of years, Colle di Val d’Elsa has been renowned for its crystal and as the birthplace of medieval sculptor and architect Arnolfo di Cambio. But, the picturesque Tuscan town, situated on the road between Florence and Siena, may soon be better known as home to one of Italy’s largest mosques. That is, if it’s ever built.
The controversy over the planned construction has been brewing for seven years and has split the local community. The outcome here could set the tone for Muslim endeavors and integration across Italy.
“Those of us who live here are really afraid,” said Lucia Prizzi, who lives in an apartment beside the field and vineyards where the mosque will be built.
“It’s not right that the local government gave them this land without consulting us first,” she said.
Her sentiments are echoed on graffiti along a nearby wall: “No Mosque,” “Christian Hill,” and “Thanks to the communists the Arabs are in our house!!!” Another calls on the mayor, who supports the mosque’s construction, to build it at his house.
From emigrant to immigrant nation
Once a nation of emigrants, Italy has only had a sizeable immigrant population for around 15 years, and is still adjusting to the changing circumstances. Yet, in many areas someone from an adjacent town can still be seen as a “foreigner” — as they have a different dialect, cuisine, and patron saint — let alone someone from across the Mediterranean Sea who practices a different religion.
With one of the European Union’s highest unemployment rates, wages at a near standstill and prices shooting higher along with the euro currency, many Italians see little room for immigrant labor. And since the rise of international terrorism, the growing Muslim community — now at around 1 million, or 2 percent of the population — is being eyed with even greater scrutiny than other immigrant groups.
After the July 2005 London transport bombings, dozens of suspected Islamic extremists were deported from the country. And in April, former Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi’s government said it thwarted planned attacks by such extremists on Milan’s subway system and on Bologna’s cathedral, which houses a painting that depicts the Muslim prophet Mohammed in a Dantesque hell.
Feeding on the country’s fears, the political party La Lega Nord — or the Northern League — switched its platform of separation from southern Italy to kicking out all foreigners, but most notably Muslims.
Meantime, although there are more than 500 Islamic centers of varying sizes across the country, Italy does not recognize Islam as an official religion.
This charged atmosphere has affected life in Colle di Val d’Elsa, where the Muslim community and the mayor have been working to build a new, larger, Islamic center to accommodate the town’s growing number of Muslims and to promote cultural exchange.
‘A place to exchange cultural knowledge’
The historic center of Colle di Val d’Elsa — which means “hills of the valley of the river Elsa” — rests on a verdant hill, looking over the businesses hub where medieval facades stand alongside modern buildings.
On a recent Friday, the fruit and vegetable market was winding down in Piazza Scala, in the center of the lower town, as the muezzin’s call to prayer rang out from the current Islamic center, a former bakery with an entrance along the piazza.
As the imam lead the prayer, the small room filled with up to a hundred people. Men stood hip-to-hip, wall-to-wall, bumping each other as they bent over in prayer. On the other side of a cloth partition, women sat cross-legged, knee-to-knee, with children clambering on top of them and vying for room.
“As you can see, we need a bigger space,” said Imam Feras Jebareen, adding that “on religious holidays we are forced to rent another hall that can hold more people.”
“The idea came about to create a center that would not only be an area to pray but a place to exchange cultural knowledge and assist integration,” he said.
Plans were put forth, and in 1999 the town’s previous mayor, Marco Spinelli, approved construction of an Islamic cultural center in the Badia quarter’s San Lazzaro park on the edge of town.
The center would comprise a mosque with a dome and minaret, made from local crystal and covering 600 square yards, as well as a library, open air-courtyard, playground with basketball hoops, and parking lot. Pedestrian and cycling paths would link the center with the town’s sporting grounds.
“It’s not really a mosque, but an open structure for cultural activities as well as Islamic prayer,” said the current mayor, Paolo Brogioni.
Construction costs would be paid for by a donation from Monte dei Paschi bank’s cultural fund and the Muslim community, with the local council paying a small fee to the architect who drew up the plans.
Jebareen, the imam, said each working Muslim in Colle di Val d’Elsa was asked to give 500 euros, and that no outside country had sponsored it.
“We want it to be an Italian mosque, for Italian Muslims, that represents an Italian Islam,” he said.
Both mayor and imam said that the Muslim community was integrating well and that there had never been problems with the current Islamic center.
Opposition to the new construction therefore took both parties by surprise.
‘Anti-democratic’
“Clown!” and “Shame on you!” the people shouted as the mayor left the legislative palace on a recent evening. The town council had just voted down the Badia residents’ petition to hold a referendum on the mosque’s construction and a few dozen protesters waited around with an “anti-democratic” banner and rice to pelt at the mayor.
Several groups have popped up in opposition to the mosque, including “Insieme per Colle” – or “Together for the town of Colle” – which promoted the referendum, and the Civic List political party.
While the Northern League opposes all mosques, saying they are political institutions where “terrorists work to create a state within the state,” these groups say they only oppose construction on the specified plot of land in the Badia quarter.
“We are not against integration or the Islamic community,” said Letizia Franceschetti, president of the committee that proposed the referendum on the center’s construction, stating that Badia residents don’t want to lose the grassy parkland, vineyards, and views of Chianti’s hills in the distance.
However, Brogioni, the mayor, accused the group of “hiding behind the arguments of the park and environment.”
“What I don’t understand,” said Brogioni, “is that I would like to discuss the activity of the center, not the place where it will be constructed, because if the people of that area don’t like the activities of the center, then it won’t go over well in any other part of town.”
The mayor said that although the community was informed of the construction in 1999, there was no opposition to the plan until after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks in the United States. But, the protesters outside the legislative palace were quick to tell reporters that the “mosque bomb” was not dropped until a later date, and that their opposition was not related to a fear of Islam.
‘Really afraid’
Amidst the bitter counterclaims, anxiety over the unknown is apparent.
One woman spoke of seeing Muslim youths train for jihad on television, and a man said that the only reason a park was being built alongside the mosque was to accommodate all the Muslim children.
“Well, when you have multiple wives, what do you expect,” he said, asking that his name not be used with that comment.
Many feared that due to the size of the mosque, Muslims from across Tuscany would flock to Colle di Val d’Elsa for Friday services and camp out during Muslim holidays, making the area a no-go zone for them.
“Why put an Islamic Vatican here on our terrace?” asked Viviana Mastacchi. “Imagine how it’ll be during Ramadan, imagine all the confusion,” the 39-year-old waitress said.
Meantime, others feared that their apartments would depreciate in value, and there was confusion over who was funding the construction costs.
"Our houses won't be worth anything," said Mastacchi.
"There's an Italian saying," said Gabrielle Antonio, "If I don't have shoes for myself, how can I give you a pair?"
"If they ask the council for money and I don't even have a house, how can we give them money for a mosque?" the 60-year-old asked.
“I think that the people here are really afraid, whether their fears are right or wrong, either way it’s only human to be afraid if you’re on a bus or on a subway you’ll look around to see if there are any Muslims around you,” Franceschetti, the lawyer, said.
To combat such fears, imam Jebareen, a Palestinian physiotherapist who has lived in Italy for more than 10 years, has promoted a pact against terrorism as well as an annual interfaith forum, and has signed a contract with the local government, stating that the new Islamic center’s existence is contingent on the Muslim community not taking part directly, or indirectly in illegal activities involving the center.
Speaking of the contract, Franceshetti said: “The Muslim community is going to have to guarantee and verify that those who enter the Islamic center are good people, which is absurd because no city, not even New York or London could confront this problem. Even they found themselves helpless in the face of grave attacks.”
‘A big moment’
The mayor remained confident that non-Muslims would frequent the center and that both groups would benefit from learning about each other, but many were skeptical.
“I’m a Catholic, why would I go there?’ asked retiree Folto Massaini.
Muslim Sinam Sharki, 19, also questioned why non-Muslims would frequent the center when “it’s really a place for prayer.”
Sharki, a Moroccan who came to Italy when she was 13, said she had non-Muslim Italian friends at school but did not see them outside of class.
“It’s not that I don’t like them; they are just very different from us; they go to discos, they eat out at restaurants, and we don’t,” she said.
Brogioni insisted that it was this divide that made the center, and it’s location within the town, essential to integration.
“The error often made in cases like this is to isolate them, to have them not be seen and not want to be seen,” he said.
“In reality, to be seen, and to want to be seen, is a big moment.”
The Muslim community has won full permission to begin construction of the Islamic Cultural Center, but the opposition has also vowed to continue its legal battle against it.
As growing Muslims communities across Italy plan to construct larger and more elaborate Islamic centers, Colle di Val d’Elsa’s experiences may foreshadow the ups and downs of integration and religious conflict to come.
Joined: 03 Jun 2005 {Posts: 270 } Location: California
Posted: Fri 26 May 2006 05:27 Post subject:
When I read articles like this, I always ask myself how easy it would be (or would it even be possible) to build a synogogue or church in any muslim city that does not currently already have one.
Yeah, the Muslms demand "equal rights", but it is illegal to build churches, synagoues, temples, etc in most, if not all, of their countries. Christians and Jews cannot leaglly enter Mecca and Medina. Europe needs to wake up and start demanding equal rights for all, especially the Muslim women.
No, it is not their culture/religion to allow abuse to women and children - Google Hirsi Ali and Denmark.
So, they use our "freedoms" while denying other groups the same. You can thank the Communist and left wing Liberals for this. They are suppose to stand for the downtrodden but the Liberals are curiously silent on gay rights and female rights among Muslims...... Is PETA going to promote animal rights for halal (ritualistic animal slaughter?) What about abortion and controceptive choice for Muslim women????
And if the immmigration bill passess, it will not only allow more Mexicans but Muslims free entry into the US in record numbers. The powers that be seem to want to bring confusion in otherwise safe and peaceful Western societies.......think about it.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Fri 26 May 2006 15:08 Post subject: Muslims
Hi,
Reading the reaction about the Muslim immigration to Europe I wonder why people still consider the Reconquist of Spain and the Inquisition were such a bad thing
Yes, the European solution for the first Muslim invasion of Europe was fighting against them, expeling them and, for those who remained, controlling they did not go back to Islam. That was called Inquisition.
Europe suffered a lot in those times, but it seems it never learn the lesson.
The bombings of the Madrid trains is just an example of a conflict that is starting to take momentum.
Yeah, the Muslms demand "equal rights", but it is illegal to build churches, synagoues, temples, etc in most, if not all, of their countries. Christians and Jews cannot leaglly enter Mecca and Medina. Europe needs to wake up and start demanding equal rights for all, especially the Muslim women.
No, it is not their culture/religion to allow abuse to women and children - Google Hirsi Ali and Denmark.
The prohibition against the construction of other houses of worhip isn't explicitly condoned in Islam. According to their religious traditions, Muslims can only "tolerate" "people of the book-Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians. Hence, these people can build houses of worship, but they cannot be larger than mosques. Further, Islamic law lists all sorts of restrictions against people of the book: they have to wear certain kinds of clothes distinguishing them from Muslims, in some instances they were made to ride donkeys instead of horses, they had to get out of the path of a Muslim if the two were crossing paths on the street, etc. Non people of the book, like myself, have no rights, not even limited ones granted people of the book.
In Eqypt, Coptic Christians are legally forbidden to build churches taller or the same height as mosques. Also, the Copts must get government approval to make any repairs to churches. Sharia is the inspiration for all of these rules.
In saner Muslim countries like Senegal, where people are more likely to see their religion as a private thing, this isn't the case as far as I know.
Melani23 wrote:
So, they use our "freedoms" while denying other groups the same. You can thank the Communist and left wing Liberals for this. They are suppose to stand for the downtrodden but the Liberals are curiously silent on gay rights and female rights among Muslims...... Is PETA going to promote animal rights for halal (ritualistic animal slaughter?) What about abortion and controceptive choice for Muslim women????
Western Europe is guilt-ridden and post-Christian. Islam is slowly filling the void left by Christianity because the mostly leftish in power enable it to do so (becuase of guilt IMO) and because Western Europe is spiritually empty. Prepare for more indigenous Europeans converting to Islam in the future and not just the European woman who marry Muslim men.
For an interesting take on these changes, read Bruce Bawer's While Europe Slept
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1466 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Tue 30 May 2006 22:03 Post subject:
G-Man wrote:
Western Europe is guilt-ridden and post-Christian. Islam is slowly filling the void left by Christianity because the mostly leftish in power enable it to do so (becuase of guilt IMO) and because Western Europe is spiritually empty. Prepare for more indigenous Europeans converting to Islam in the future and not just the European woman who marry Muslim men.
I agree completely with the first part. But I do not agree that indigenous Europeans will convert to Islam. By converting to Islam they will lose their freedoms. Europeans want to have fun and party. Most look at the Muslim community with askew. Perhaps if somethinf catostrophic happens, but I do not see it happening just over time.
Western Europe is guilt-ridden and post-Christian. Islam is slowly filling the void left by Christianity because the mostly leftish in power enable it to do so (becuase of guilt IMO) and because Western Europe is spiritually empty. Prepare for more indigenous Europeans converting to Islam in the future and not just the European woman who marry Muslim men.
I agree completely with the first part. But I do not agree that indigenous Europeans will convert to Islam. By converting to Islam they will lose their freedoms. Europeans want to have fun and party. Most look at the Muslim community with askew. Perhaps if somethinf catostrophic happens, but I do not see it happening just over time.
Some people prefer slavery to freedom.....And how satisfying can a life revolved around partying and having fun actually be in the long run?
Though I am non religious in the extreme, I believe the loss of religion in Western Europe (in this case Christianity) will be filled by something else. For some a kind of emotional leftism, grounded in anti-Americanism will fill that void; this is a kind of secular religion of sorts. This seems to be the case with many of Europe's intellectuals.
For some others who feel the need to believe in a higher power, Islam will be the thing for them. I don't think that the majority of Europeans will embrace that religion, but a sizeable portion will. Where Christianity is soft and where some Christian clergy have embraced moral and cultural relativism combined with a thinly veiled agnosticism, Muslims are self-assured in the truthfulness and the universal nature of their religious beliefs. Where mainstream Christianity today holds non judgementalism as an ideal, Islam is very judgemental.
A world where there are no universal truths isn’t all that attractive to many people. Hence, some people will flock to religion like Islam that offers the adherent a true, universal, and holistic belief system and a set of divinely-inspired rules by which to live one’s life righteously. Some of these people may from the left and see their conversion as an extension of progressive politics. Others may be from the right and may find the belief in god, the preservation of age old religious tradition, and the imposition of religious law on society much to their liking. I would argue that the last thing would be pleasing to many on the left as well.
Yeah, the Muslms demand "equal rights", but it is illegal to build churches, synagoues, temples, etc in most, if not all, of their countries. Christians and Jews cannot leaglly enter Mecca and Medina. Europe needs to wake up and start demanding equal rights for all, especially the Muslim women.
No, it is not their culture/religion to allow abuse to women and children - Google Hirsi Ali and Denmark.
The prohibition against the construction of other houses of worhip isn't explicitly condoned in Islam. According to their religious traditions, Muslims can only "tolerate" "people of the book-Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians. Hence, these people can build houses of worship, but they cannot be larger than mosques. Further, Islamic law lists all sorts of restrictions against people of the book: they have to wear certain kinds of clothes distinguishing them from Muslims, in some instances they were made to ride donkeys instead of horses, they had to get out of the path of a Muslim if the two were crossing paths on the street, etc. Non people of the book, like myself, have no rights, not even limited ones granted people of the book.
In Eqypt, Coptic Christians are legally forbidden to build churches taller or the same height as mosques. Also, the Copts must get government approval to make any repairs to churches. Sharia is the inspiration for all of these rules.
In saner Muslim countries like Senegal, where people are more likely to see their religion as a private thing, this isn't the case as far as I know.
Melani23 wrote:
So, they use our "freedoms" while denying other groups the same. You can thank the Communist and left wing Liberals for this. They are suppose to stand for the downtrodden but the Liberals are curiously silent on gay rights and female rights among Muslims...... Is PETA going to promote animal rights for halal (ritualistic animal slaughter?) What about abortion and controceptive choice for Muslim women????
Western Europe is guilt-ridden and post-Christian. Islam is slowly filling the void left by Christianity because the mostly leftish in power enable it to do so (becuase of guilt IMO) and because Western Europe is spiritually empty. Prepare for more indigenous Europeans converting to Islam in the future and not just the European woman who marry Muslim men.
For an interesting take on these changes, read Bruce Bawer's While Europe Slept
Yes, I bought that book writed by the American expat gay liberal journalist living in Europe. He condems Europe's appeasement to these extremists.
America will be harder to conquer since we are more of a religious post-Christian society than Europe. Plus Mexicans are good Catholics, LOL!
There is a spiritual vacuum in Europe that will either be filled by drugs, sex, and liesure (currently) or by religion. They will have to choose.
It just goes to show you how morality is a slippery slope. There is such a thing as absolute truth and right and wrong. Refusal of the truth of the eternal God Jesus Christ will lead you to believe a lie. It's sad that the West has turned its back on God and must reap the consequences.
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1466 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Fri 02 Jun 2006 17:34 Post subject:
G-Man wrote:
Some people prefer slavery to freedom.....And how satisfying can a life revolved around partying and having fun actually be in the long run?
Yes I agree. Such a life is very empty. This is probably the reason why so many in Hollywood are unhappy really.
G-Man wrote:
For some others who feel the need to believe in a higher power, Islam will be the thing for them. I don't think that the majority of Europeans will embrace that religion, but a sizeable portion will. Where Christianity is soft and where some Christian clergy have embraced moral and cultural relativism combined with a thinly veiled agnosticism, Muslims are self-assured in the truthfulness and the universal nature of their religious beliefs. Where mainstream Christianity today holds non judgementalism as an ideal, Islam is very judgemental.
A world where there are no universal truths isn’t all that attractive to many people. Hence, some people will flock to religion like Islam that offers the adherent a true, universal, and holistic belief system and a set of divinely-inspired rules by which to live one’s life righteously. Some of these people may from the left and see their conversion as an extension of progressive politics. Others may be from the right and may find the belief in god, the preservation of age old religious tradition, and the imposition of religious law on society much to their liking. I would argue that the last thing would be pleasing to many on the left as well.
I see your point and I agree with you. Those seeking fullfillment will likely go into Islam since European Christianity is so weak. But I think the majority of Europe will be secular-humanist which is based on moral relativism and no universal truths. In any event there is likely to be a culture war between the two opposite poles. And I mean violent. The secular-humanist movement will lead Europe into a despotic tyrrany as will the Islamist movement. Is there any forces left in Europe that will be able to save it?? At least we have a little hope here in the US.
Melanie23 wrote:
America will be harder to conquer since we are more of a religious post-Christian society than Europe. Plus Mexicans are good Catholics, LOL!
There is a spiritual vacuum in Europe that will either be filled by drugs, sex, and liesure (currently) or by religion. They will have to choose.
At least the poor Mexicans who are coming to the US have family values for the most part. Who knows, they might be our saving grace from the destructive forces of leftism.
One scary thing about Europe is that history is about to repeat itself there, IMO. One of the lessons they learned from WWII was to avoid war at all costs. I can't say I blame them since much of Europe was destroyed during the War. There are still many people left who can remember the ruins. But when there is a spiritual vacuum, evil can and will be appeased. Evil will be appeased to avoid war, like Neville Chamberlain did with Hitler in 1939. This will be the road to hell. It's happening here in the States, but a little slower.
Melanie23 wrote:
It just goes to show you how morality is a slippery slope. There is such a thing as absolute truth and right and wrong. Refusal of the truth of the eternal God Jesus Christ will lead you to believe a lie. It's sad that the West has turned its back on God and must reap the consequences.
I fully agree. Just look at the advances of the homosexual movement in the West. Now the pedophile movement is trying to see what it can get in the Netherlands. This is what happens when the line between right and wrong is not drawn. Particularly when it's done so as to not offend a group.
Europe is powder keg ready to explode: on one side you have extreme "tolerance", and on the other extreme "un-tolerance". The thing is, the "un-tolerant" side is willing to fight a war for their beliefs at the sametime the "tolerant" side is appeasing them. It should be interesting, but it will have dire consequences for the entire planet.
I read an interview on Bruce Bawer in FrontPageMag, I'd post it, put it is very lengthy.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Fri 02 Jun 2006 18:23 Post subject: Agree!!
DChapman wrote:
...
Melanie23 wrote:
It just goes to show you how morality is a slippery slope. There is such a thing as absolute truth and right and wrong. Refusal of the truth of the eternal God Jesus Christ will lead you to believe a lie. It's sad that the West has turned its back on God and must reap the consequences.
I fully agree. Just look at the advances of the homosexual movement in the West. Now the pedophile movement is trying to see what it can get in the Netherlands. This is what happens when the line between right and wrong is not drawn. Particularly when it's done so as to not offend a group.
...
ABSOLUTELY!!!
Too much freedom can be as bad as too little. And if people does not know what is right and what is wrong, how come they will do good?
By the way, the West does not only lost God. It lost the ethic at the same time. That's the problem.
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1466 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Fri 02 Jun 2006 20:11 Post subject:
Salsassin wrote:
A the Bible/Koran thumping crowd.
Europe has gone awry in some parts, but I will take them over a theocracy any time.
I understand what you mean. A theocracy is not a good thing either. But I think the secularism and the absense of spirtuality of Europe will lead to far dangerous consequences than a theocracy would. JMO.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Fri 02 Jun 2006 23:04 Post subject: Saint James
DChapman wrote:
Salsassin wrote:
A the Bible/Koran thumping crowd.
Europe has gone awry in some parts, but I will take them over a theocracy any time.
I understand what you mean. A theocracy is not a good thing either. But I think the secularism and the absense of spirtuality of Europe will lead to far dangerous consequences than a theocracy would. JMO.
Hi,
Saint James (Santiago) will come back on his white horse to rescue Europe from the Moors .I tell you.
Well, Torquemada could help as well.
Pray God for it.
Amen, (just kidding. Don't be so serious with me on this point, please)
Europe has gone awry in some parts, but I will take them over a theocracy any time.
I understand what you mean. A theocracy is not a good thing either. But I think the secularism and the absense of spirtuality of Europe will lead to far dangerous consequences than a theocracy would. JMO.
Quote:
Europe already had theocracies and they led to the dark ages.
Joined: 28 Apr 2006 {Posts: 282 } Location: 51st State
Posted: Sat 03 Jun 2006 15:01 Post subject:
DChapman wrote:
G-Man wrote:
Some people prefer slavery to freedom.....And how satisfying can a life revolved around partying and having fun actually be in the long run?
Yes I agree. Such a life is very empty. This is probably the reason why so many in Hollywood are unhappy really.
I know what you mean, but not even the Oscars is about 'partying and having fun'. And across the world the film output of Hollywood 'fills people' with something they enjoy.
Melanie23 wrote:
It just goes to show you how morality is a slippery slope. There is such a thing as absolute truth and right and wrong. Refusal of the truth of the eternal God Jesus Christ will lead you to believe a lie. It's sad that the West has turned its back on God and must reap the consequences.
Some people reap consequences even if they turn to God. Europeans went to Africa with the Bible, and soon when the Africans turned around, Africans had the Bible and Europeans had the land.
oevega wrote:
Too much freedom can be as bad as too little. And if people does not know what is right and what is wrong, how come they will do good?
By the way, the West does not only lost God. It lost the ethic at the same time. That's the problem.
I can't wait to hear the absolute truth of right and wrong, because that will make my life so much easier. All I'd have to do is follow that and I won't come to any harm.
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1466 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Sat 03 Jun 2006 22:25 Post subject:
Salsassin wrote:
DChapman wrote:
Salsassin wrote:
A the Bible/Koran thumping crowd.
Europe has gone awry in some parts, but I will take them over a theocracy any time.
I understand what you mean. A theocracy is not a good thing either. But I think the secularism and the absense of spirtuality of Europe will lead to far dangerous consequences than a theocracy would. JMO.
Quote:
Europe already had theocracies and they led to the dark ages.
Yes, and Europe already went secular with a lack of spiritual connection and it led to WWII and the Holocaust. The secularist communists have killed over 50 million people collectively in the 20th Century.
But I agree with you about theocracies, the Islamic theocracies have produced virtually nothing in the last several hundred years or so.
Yes, and Europe already went secular with a lack of spiritual connection and it led to WWII and the Holocaust. The secularist communists have killed over 50 million people collectively in the 20th Century.
I disagree. Much of the Third Reich's attitudes came from religous indocrination. Communism was a religious dogma cloaked in anti religion.
Quote:
But I agree with you about theocracies, the Islamic theocracies have produced virtually nothing in the last several hundred years or so.
Yeah, Islamic nations were much better off when they were more secular.
Last edited by Salsassin on Sun 04 Jun 2006 02:43; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 19 Jan 2006 {Posts: 185 } Location: Southern California
Posted: Sun 04 Jun 2006 01:42 Post subject:
I'm with Salssasin on this topic. This has been an interesting thread and I've been lurking frequently; but now I just couldn't resist and was compelled to jump in on this one. My husband comes from Iraq, he's all too familiar with the theocracies within that region. Saudia Arabia, for example is not only a monarchy, but a theocracy as well and has among the worst human rights abuses abound...especially for women. My husband, being a Shiite, tells of how they are persecuted within Saudi Arabia. He was telling me that the Shia can have their mosques in some of the eastern portions of that country; however in major cities such as Jiddah, Riyadh or Mecca they're not allowed. Let's also not forget the mutawa or the " morals police" which are abound like kangaroos in that country.
If memory serves me correctly, I remember the whole world going into an uproar when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan. So other western countries proceeded to finance the mujahadeen (freedom fighters) in their efforts to oust the Soviets. When the Soviets finally left, Afghanistan fared absolutely no better as some of these mujahadeen became...you guessed it... the Taliban. And again, women got the short end of the stick (not allowed to go to school...etc)
If I'm not mistaken, it was true that many of the intellectuals during the Pol Pot regime (communist) in Cambodia were executed. In the same vein, indivduals within some of theocracies of today who question the very tenets of Islam or are perceived as doing so, fear for their lives as they can have fatwas issued upon them. My husband had corresponded via e-mail with a husband/wife team in Egypt who had been given death threats due to a book that the wife had written.
I find that the communists(e.g. former Soviet Union) and the theocracy of the Saudis are two different sides of the same d@mn coin...only the dogma is different.
Absolute truth?...I really don't know. Is it the "Golden Rule" ?Variants of this sage advice have been said around the globe by the religious and non-religious. We also hear people say that some societys need to "turn to God". But the question is...whose god?. Is it the any of the gods as described by the Abrahamic religions (e.g. bible-god, koran-god) and all of said god's attributes as stated in their respective books? (The information and tenets within these books again being highly questionable and debatable). Can you be a compassionate human being as well a form a humane society without necessarily having to resort to either of these proselytizing religions? (Christianity/Islam). Personally, I think "yes". However I'm quite agnostic..and I'm going to stop right now . This thread is so interesting, that I can easily see it branching off into a deep philosophical dicussion and heated debate which would be more appropriate for a totally different message board
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1466 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Mon 05 Jun 2006 12:59 Post subject:
Salsassin wrote:
I disagree. Much of the Third Reich's attitudes came from religous indocrination.
But the Nazis still had to disconnect from official "religious" doctrine in order to get the general populace to follow them as oppossed to the Catholic or Lutheren Churches. The Nazis discourged church attendence. Nazism was not a derivative of any Catholic or Christian religious doctrine.
Salsassin wrote:
Communism was a religious dogma cloaked in anti religion.
That's precisely what secular humanism and todays leftism is.
DucorpsToo wrote:
I find that the communists(e.g. former Soviet Union) and the theocracy of the Saudis are two different sides of the same d@mn coin...only the dogma is different.
That's exactly my point. But not necessarily the Soviets. Today's far left would lead us into a despotic tyrrany, that's the only way you could get the majority of the people to adhere to it. Just like an Islamic tyrrany. One of the things the far left is going after is the Christian religion. They need to disconnect the people who follow Christianity. Marx said himself that religion would have to go, and the strong family would have to go in order for communism to make an impact. The thing that gets me is that the dogma of the far left (homosexuality, abortion, feminism) would be crushed under an Islamic theocracy. Under an Islamic theocracy, you submit to Allah or they will cut your head off.
I personally do not like either of the two. I operate well with the Constitutional Republic that we have, though we are losing it due to apathy, complacency, and other distractions.
I disagree. Much of the Third Reich's attitudes came from religous indocrination.
But the Nazis still had to disconnect from official "religious" doctrine in order to get the general populace to follow them as oppossed to the Catholic or Lutheren Churches. The Nazis discourged church attendence. Nazism was not a derivative of any Catholic or Christian religious doctrine.
Salsassin wrote:
Communism was a religious dogma cloaked in anti religion.
That's precisely what secular humanism and todays leftism is.
DucorpsToo wrote:
I find that the communists(e.g. former Soviet Union) and the theocracy of the Saudis are two different sides of the same d@mn coin...only the dogma is different.
That's exactly my point. But not necessarily the Soviets. Today's far left would lead us into a despotic tyrrany, that's the only way you could get the majority of the people to adhere to it. Just like an Islamic tyrrany. One of the things the far left is going after is the Christian religion. They need to disconnect the people who follow Christianity. Marx said himself that religion would have to go, and the strong family would have to go in order for communism to make an impact. The thing that gets me is that the dogma of the far left (homosexuality, abortion, feminism) would be crushed under an Islamic theocracy. Under an Islamic theocracy, you submit to Allah or they will cut your head off.
The far left are circling the drain and the Democrats wonder why they keep losing dispite all of the Repub scandals....
The liberals are being the hypocrits they claim conservatives are. Liberals are suppose to stand for total inclusivity of all peoples, but they show their true (evil) nature by attacking Christianity (ACLU, etc) while silent of the mistreatment of other faiths, women, minorities (yes, racism does exsist), and gays in Islam. At least Christians are not advocating death for homosexuals and other non-believers unlike Islam....
I agree DC. I personally do not like either of the two (Islam, facism), but as a female would say facism is the lesser of two evils. I could drive and wear what I wanted....
Even though I am a Christian, I'd rather live in a secular state/country as all religions will be tolerated. Communists (China, Vietnam, N. Korea) actively oppose and persecute Christians (http://www.persecution.com/basic/prisonerList.cfm?Country=ALL)
Islam opposes all who do not follow or agree to its tenets (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/) - there is no room for Christianity, Judiasm, Hinduism, athesism, etc in its creed.
All would be persecuted or regulated to 3rd class citizenship (Dhimmi).
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/
America will be the last stand unless Europe musters up enough fortitude and Latin America does not slide further into Commu-Marxism......
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Is PETA going to promote animal rights for halal (ritualistic animal slaughter?) What about abortion and controceptive choice for Muslim women???? 
