Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Mon 12 Jun 2006 14:30 Post subject: AFROPERUVIAN: AN INVENTED ETHNICITY
Hi,
The invention of artificial "African" identities is a process that is going on in Latin America. However, people is starting to notice the trick. Yes, it is very easy to claim ethnicities to claim national and international funds and to get other free rides. This is a blog from Peru that explain it very clear. I translate same paragraphs.
Quote:
Es como querer convertir a los peruanos negros en negros peruanos, y a partir de allí asignarle a un grupo "representativo", el estatus de cultura diferenciada dentro de la interculturalidad nacional.
Is like converting Black Peruvians in Afroperuvians, and from there associated them in a "representative" group, and give them the same status of a different culture in multiculural Peru.
Quote:
Y donde personas, sin un sentido claro de la problemática intercultural, más que racial, "arman" un conglomerado social que, en el proceso, devendrá contraproducente para resolver los reales problemas de nuestras etnias (con lengua y cultura propia).
And where people, without a clear sense of multiculturalism, "make an artificial" social group, which will affect the real problems of our ethnic groups (those with tonges and cultures of their own)
As I said before, there is a real complot that pretends to create an African identity from nothing in several countries of Latin America. An identity that will give the organizers many economical benefits and that will left the Indians behind, like always.
A pesar de ser un poco historia, el proceso penal abierto contra un grupo de ex funcionarios de la desactivada Comisión Nacional de Pueblos Andinos, Amazónicos y Afroperuanos (Conapa) por los supuestos malos manejos económicos que habrían cometido al interior de este organismo estatal, dió lugar al cierre de dicha institución. Sin embargo, inmediatamente y mediante Ley No. 28495, se dió creación a una entidad similar -y continuista del CONAPA- denominada INDEPAA (Instituto Nacional de Desarrollo de Pueblos Andinos, Amazónicos y Afroperuano). Lo cierto, y motivo de éste artículo, es la singular presencia en ambos organismos de los "pueblos afroperuanos", como si constituyeran una etnia con lengua y cultura diferenciada. Es como querer convertir a los peruanos negros en negros peruanos, y a partir de allí asignarle a un grupo "representativo", el estatus de cultura diferenciada dentro de la interculturalidad nacional.
La verdad, si usted conversa sobre el tema con algún peruano negro o descendiente, no tienen muy claro cual pueda ser sus diferencias con todos nosotros, salvo el color de la piel. Claro que se ha venido "inventando" lo de la comida y la música como elementos culturales de la "etnia negra", aunque hablar de la cocina negra es hablar de cocina criolla -simple y llanamente-, y hablar de música negra, es colocar como algo propio, los bailes recreados como "música negra" y con evidente "incorporación" de elementos de bailes africanos de naturaleza ceremonial y no necesariamente festiva. En todo caso, si lo fuere, el "ritmo negro" no lleva ser una característica de una etnia o grupo cultural, en particular cuando el grupo "revalorado" no tiene ni ha tenido una lengua o dialecto comùn.
Pero, así se hacen las cosas en nuestro país, cuando personas sin un identificación clara con la nación y el pueblo peruano, buscan privilegios en sentirse o imaginarse "excluidos". Para ello, como el caso de peruanos de color negro, haciendo alardes de "vinculos" o "relaciones" con el poder -transitorio-, logran incorporarse a los organismos que defienden la interculturalidad, en principio. Y donde personas, sin un sentido claro de la problemática intercultural, más que racial, "arman" un conglomerado social que, en el proceso, devendrá contraproducente para resolver los reales problemas de nuestras etnias (con lengua y cultura propia).
Y claro, la señora Karp, "descubridora" del Perú, ha sido una influencia determinante para "consolidar" a los grupos negros interesados en ganar espacios dentro de los excluidos. Claro que en ello, por dignidad propia de los peruanos negros, no todos tienden a aceptar. En fin piensan, si desde que llegaron como esclavos y procedentes de diversa etnias africanas, el proceso inicial fué de convivir y aceptarse, y pasado el tiempo, se integraron no como africanos sino como peruanos, sin hablar del evidente y fructífero aporte al proceso de mestizaje peruano. Etnias, por lo demás, cuya rivalidad en dicho continente sigue siendo el origen de conflictos y hasta de actos de barbarie, como es difundido por la prensa mundial. Ante lo dicho, y si se desea ser consistente en lo cultural, cabe preguntarse:, ¿A que etnia africana en particular se le emparenta a los "negros peruanos"?. Si ya está definido... ¡Albricias!.
Precisamente, un hecho que lo tomo como una anécdota sobre el peso e influencia de la señora Karp en el asunto de los negros, y no como algo jocoso, es el de la alegrìa y satisfacciòn de un amigo... mi gran amigo Victorio. Resulta que lo encuentro en el centro y -según él- regresaba de una reunión del INDEPAA, en donde había departido con la señora Karp, y que dicho momento lo había llenado de mucho orgullo.- A mi pregunta de que era dicho orgullo.- Victorio, muy solemne me contesta: Lucho, es que ahora los negros podemos decir que contamos con una... gran belga. ¡Sin comentarios!.
Posted: Mon 12 Jun 2006 17:11 Post subject: Re: AFROPERUVIAN: AN INVENTED ETHNICITY
oevega wrote:
As I said before, there is a real complot that pretends to create an African identity from nothing in several countries of Latin America. An identity that will give the organizers many economical benefits and that will left the Indians behind, like always.
Omar what I think is a happening, is that afrodescendents in Latin America are finally standing up, taking pride in their origins, and celebrating their unique culture and customs, after years of being marginalized.
.....as one commenter in the blog states:
Luis Leon wrote:
Los negros en Peru tienen una cultura unica y muy conocida internacionalmente. Ellos necesitan ser escuchados porque tienen una identidad como comunidad y una voz en nuestra sociedad.
Translation:
" The blacks in Peru have a unique and internationally known culture. They need to be heard because they have an identity as a community and a voice in our society."
...a statement that I wholeheartedly agree with.
Why is it that you are so opposed to latin American people identifying with their african roots, culture, and heritage??
Omar what I think is a happening, is that afrodescendents in Latin America are finally standing up, taking pride in their origins, and celebrating their unique culture and customs, after years of being marginalized.
Depends on where in Latin America. In some parts of Latin America afrodescendents have been celebrating and taking pride in their origins for quite some time; I would argue as long or even longer than African Americans. It really isn't anything new in many parts of Latin America. In other parts it's fairly recent.
Omar is well aware of this. He is just a closet bigot who can't stand any Afrodescent people having their own identities. And he again is violating the rules of this forum as he is trying to claim that part of my identity which is afroperuvian and has existed way before I was ever born is an invented ethnicity. But it is Omar, what do you expect?
If this is just a contrived identity, how is it that Afro Peruvians have their own music and dance traditions? These traditions have been around for some time; they didn't come into being yesterday.
Question for Salassin: Have black Peruvian music and dance traditions influenced the music of Peru as a whole or are they restricted to the Afro Peruvian population? Because their population is relatively small, I'm wondering if the majority of Peruvians are familiar with these traditions.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Tue 13 Jun 2006 00:05 Post subject: Re: AFROPERUVIAN: AN INVENTED ETHNICITY
Phil345 wrote:
...
Omar what I think is a happening, is that afrodescendents in Latin America are finally standing up, taking pride in their origins, and celebrating their unique culture and customs, after years of being marginalized....
....
Why is it that you are so opposed to latin American people identifying with their african roots, culture, and heritage??
Hi Phil,
I am not againts Black people and their rights, which they deserve like any other individual in a society. I believe all people has right and should be respected.
Now, What happened in Peru, Colombia, Cuba, Brazil, and any other place that has Black minorities is that never there was a barrier between Blacks and mainstream. To decide where Blackness stop and where the other groups starts is very hard in the Latin Americans that have Black minorities.
Now, countries like Peru, Colombia, Brazil, Dominican Republic, etc, do know and recognize the African heritage. Cultural activities are fomented by the states and the heritage is kept with care, because of the importance for the past peoples in those countries. Now, because there are not barriers to speak of the practicioners of the African heritage in Music, religions and any other culture, they cross the societies regardless of race. You can find a white Yoruba priest, a Indian "cajon" player, etc.
During 500 years people has been assimilated in Latin America. So the question is, at to which point one could suddenly invent a group of people that was always part of the mainstream?
Now, outside the Latin societies there are real parallel societies with their own languages, religion and cosmovision. They are the ethnic Indians. Not just Indians, but those that preserve intact languages and traditions. The states of the region have many programs to recognize the Indian nations, because is considered a duty. And also Indians are the poorest of all people of the Americas.
Now, suddenly some group of people have started to develop african associations, and they are looking for the same rights and recognitions the Indians have achieved because history.
The question many of us ask is just the following:
Since when Blacks form a different ethnic group from the rest of us?
And also: Who is Black? How we recognize them?
Yes, because centuries of admituxed has made many of those "Blacks" that came distant ancestries, to be almost indistinguishable from the rest.
In Chile, at least, where there are about 100 people that claim African roots, and many of us found their claim pathetic. Yes, some 30 of them are Black people, but not even the facial features correspond. Even more, the traditions they are claiming are being imported from Brazil and Africa in the past two years!!
So why we should not believe those afrocentric organizations are pulling our legs and are just looking for the money our countries have for real opressed minorities?
I believe in many cases these afrocentric organizations are just oaxes. At least in Chile, Argentina and Mexico many people is very upset with the exagerated claims they are making.
To invent an ethnicity is easy. It is like I say I am French or Italian because a far away ancestor came from Europe. Or to claim I am Indian because I have some ancestry. The fact is most Latinos, including Blacks, are part of the mainstream. They speak spanish, are Catholic, believe the same thing the rest do and live in the same place the rest live. They intermarry since centuries, they go to the same schools. So, how come they are a different people?
To have a different ethnicity one should, at least, preserve the language and some very distinct culture. One should have live appart from the mainstream by any reason. In the case of most Latinos, those differences are just a myth.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Tue 13 Jun 2006 00:21 Post subject: Heritage.
G-Man wrote:
...
Depends on where in Latin America. In some parts of Latin America afrodescendents have been celebrating and taking pride in their origins for quite some time; I would argue as long or even longer than African Americans. It really isn't anything new in many parts of Latin America. In other parts it's fairly recent.
Hi G-Man:
Good point. The fact is in those countries that have large African minorities the heritage has been recognized since long time ago. Cuba, Dominican Republic, Brazil, Haiti, Panama, Colombia, Peru, Ecuador and others do have an African heritage and is respected.
The problems are going on in those countries that NEVER BEFORE had an African heritage at all before certain groups start to claim it existed. In countries like Argentina, Chile, Mexico, Bolivia, Paraguay and others, there never was a Black minority above the 0.01% of the population. So in practical terms there never was an African heritage to speak of.
In the case of Chile, for example, the famous "Oro Negro" group was a surprise for me. I just knew it two years ago, and read about the Black heritage of Azapa, close to the Northern frontier with Peru. I believe is fine a group of 300 descendents of Blacks in the Valley of Azapa claim they have an African heritage (although some are, most of them are not even Blacks at all). Yes, they should preserve their traditions and their customs, and that's fine. But from there to claim that Chile as a whole has an African heritage is way out of proportions.
All I got to say is ask one of the people of Afrodescent from those countries and don't wast your time debating with a person who just can't accept the faact that small populations can have their own social identity and presence
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Thu 22 Jun 2006 03:56 Post subject: Jaime
Salsassin wrote:
All I got to say is ask one of the people of Afrodescent from those countries and don't wast your time debating with a person who just can't accept the faact that small populations can have their own social identity and presence
WELCOME BACK!!!!
I imagine the desperation you have for answering this post
Yes I can accept the fact small populations can have an identity as a subgroup inside society. The "colonies" of Italians, Palestineans and others in Latin America have certain degree of familiar identity. If that's what you mean I agree.
If this is just a contrived identity, how is it that Afro Peruvians have their own music and dance traditions? These traditions have been around for some time; they didn't come into being yesterday.
Question for Salassin: Have black Peruvian music and dance traditions influenced the music of Peru as a whole or are they restricted to the Afro Peruvian population? Because their population is relatively small, I'm wondering if the majority of Peruvians are familiar with these traditions.
Certain Afro-Peruvian dances and traditions have become part of the mainstream. Others have not. Some you will only find in the Afroperuvian areas. The national dance of Peru, the Marinera, is of Afrodecent
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Thu 22 Jun 2006 20:23 Post subject: Afroperuvian
Jaime,
Could you please tell us what in your oppinion really is an Afroperuvian?:
(1) A person who has a Black ancestor somewhere up the family tree.
(2) A endogenous ethnic group that live apparts genetically from the rest of the population.
(3) People of some region of Peru that happen to have some African influence.
(4) A ethnic group that keep its own language, religion and particular customs completely different to the rest of the population.
Fell free to go into details so we can know what you really mean.
Actually I got confussed by these pictures that are supposed to be from Afroperuvians.
Posted: Fri 23 Jun 2006 05:08 Post subject: Re: Afroperuvian
oevega wrote:
Could you please tell us what in your oppinion really is an Afroperuvian?
An Afroperuvian is one that identifies with the Afrodescent communities of Peru and/or because of their features cosider themselves a part of the Afrodiaspora.
Quote:
(1) A person who has a Black ancestor somewhere up the family tree.
(2) A endogenous ethnic group that live apparts genetically from the rest of the population.
(3) People of some region of Peru that happen to have some African influence.
(4) A ethnic group that keep its own language, religion and particular customs completely different to the rest of the population.
None of those are accurate. Some distant ancestry is not enough unless you were raised in a strong Afrodescent culture.
You do not have to live genetically apart to have a sense of separation through historical separation and different heritage.
Some Afircan influence is most of the country, bu some areas had predominant Afrodescent influence.
And like I said before language is not neccesary, but history, customs, traditions, sense of group identity, yes.
Eva Ayllon is definitel AfroPeruvian
Never ever heard Ricardo Plama described as an AfroPeruvian.
Regards,
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Fri 23 Jun 2006 20:59 Post subject: Re: Afroperuvian
Salsassin wrote:
...
You do not have to live genetically apart to have a sense of separation through historical separation and different heritage.
Some Afircan influence is most of the country, bu some areas had predominant Afrodescent influence.
Which areas? I would like to know more, sincerely.
Quote:
And like I said before language is not neccesary, but history, customs, traditions, sense of group identity, yes.
Do you mean, like the colonies of Italians or Arabs that exist in Latin America? Yes, they only keep their traditions in social clubs or in the church. Or do you mean a marginalize group that live isolated in their own neighbourhoods, like the poor Black Americans?
Please, explain.
Quote:
Eva Ayllon is definitel AfroPeruvian
I am interested in the girl. What makes her Afroperuvian?
Eva Ayllon is ethnically Criolla, but is Afroperuvian as well. She is of Afrodecent and relates to that African ancestry. She also relates to her Indigenous an Spanish side. It is not like the ODR where you only have to be one.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Mon 26 Jun 2006 02:33 Post subject: Hi Salssasin
Salsassin wrote:
Eva Ayllon is ethnically Criolla, but is Afroperuvian as well. She is of Afrodecent and relates to that African ancestry. She also relates to her Indigenous an Spanish side. It is not like the ODR where you only have to be one.
Hi Jaime,
Yes, I know that. I know it all along.
You and me know it is very difficult to mark frontiers between people in Latin America, and I am certain that's the case of the Peruvian groups as well. A single person can easily be Afrodescendent, Eurodescendent, Nativedescendent and Sinodescendent, all at the same time. That's why I believe that "African" culture belongs to the Peruvian people rather than to a single group.
The case of some Amazonian Indians in Peru is different though. They are just being integrated to the mainstream Peru. They belong to a different ethnic group from mainstream, and many don't even speak Spanish or have genetic admixture.
That is all what I wanted to say, Jaime. That one can't compare the realities of the "native of the Jungle" with the one of Black descendents, (which are a subgroup of the Peruvian mainstrem population).
Most Peruvians practice SOME AfroPeruvian traditions, but not all. There are communities that are Afrooriented and prectice their own specific traditions. So their culture is not just that of all Peruvians.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Mon 26 Jun 2006 03:07 Post subject: GROUPS
Salsassin wrote:
Most Peruvians practice SOME AfroPeruvian traditions, but not all. There are communities that are Afrooriented and prectice their own specific traditions. So their culture is not just that of all Peruvians.
Agree!
They are part of a multi-cultural mozaic rather that just an homogenious mixture, aren't they? That is what happens in most of countries of Latin America.
But still the what I say applies. Amazon natives, for example, are totally "outside" the mainstream (at least in the previous generations).
On the other hand, groups like whites, blacks, mestizos, mulatoes, chineses, quechua indians, etc., all interact between them and have a certain degree of mutual knowledge and admixture. They all belong to the same "continioum" from which, up to recent time, Amazonian natives were marginalized. Do yo get it now?
That's what I was trying to explain all along. That's why the reality of the small "ethnic Indian" minorities of Latin America are different from the realities of the subcultures. And that's why "ethnic Indians" should have rights that are different in scope to the legitimate rights of minorities to keep their traditions alive.
'
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