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Situating Whiteness in Italian Identity ~Andrea Dottolo
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PostPosted: Sat 15 Jul 2006 04:37    Post subject: Situating Whiteness in Italian Identity ~Andrea Dottolo Reply with quote

Italian Identity in America
April 23 2003 at 4:45 PM





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Andrea Dottolo: Situating Whiteness in Italian Identity

As an Italian-American from upstate New York, coming from an extended Italian community, I have always and only understood my ethnicity in those terms. My identity was and is largely based on this cultural heritage, and, for the most part, I was easily recognized as a member of this community as a result of the large Italian contingency surrounding me. After relocating to the Midwest, my (now ambiguous) race has become more present and relevant in my everyday interactions in ways that it did not while, for example, growing up in a predominately Italian-American community. This is not to say, however, that ideas about race were absent in my upbringing, or that messages about race were not clearly communicated in my culture (which is something that I will turn to later).

My olive skin and dark features often seem to designate me as “Other” in a sea of blond, blue-eyed Midwesterners. Here in Michigan, my appearance is not read as Italian, but as various other ethnic or racial categories (most commonly Latina, or, annoyingly, “Hispanic”[1]). For example, at a recent doctor’s appointment on campus, a white nurse practitioner marveled at my “great Hispanic musculature,” and connected this to my potential to carry children with ease (which will, of course, inevitably occur). A fellow graduate student fumbled when I clarified that my last name is Italian because there had evidently been “talk” that I was Latina. The treatment that I received in these brief moments of “raced” experiences has both infuriated me and helped me to recognize the privilege that often surrounds me. This has served to fuel my antiracist politics. These kinds of responses to my physical “Italianness” are apparently not unique. Susan Raffo writes,

I am sometimes assumed to be Italian by others that I meet. Or I am assumed to be something different, something other. I have been asked if I were Jewish, Native, Latina. At other times, I am just assumed to be white. It depends on who is talking to me. My face stays the same. It’s their perceptions that change. (201)

Raffo’s reflections echo my own experiences and emphasize the social construction of race. Every so often in New York I was mistaken for Puerto Rican, Cuban, Greek, or Arab. In San Diego, where I lived for four years before moving to Michigan, I was almost always seen as Mexican.

It seems understandable to me that others might perceive me as a member of any of the aforementioned racial/ethnic groups, as I often am “darker” than many “authentic” members of them. Or perhaps it seems reasonable because the greatest tensions surrounding issues of race in the Italian community are usually not concerning these (stereotypically lighter-skinned) groups, but are with our similarities, real or perceived, to African-Americans. Angela Maria Guidice remembers how other white children responded to her skin color:

I tan very darkly, and when I would come back from Florida […] I got called ‘nigger’ a lot during those springs and summers. It made me just hate whatever was making that happen. I knew the problem was them—the other white kids—and not me, although no one ever explained that to me. (Bulkin 215)


In this statement, Guidice’s statement of the culpability of “the other white kids,” also implicitly includes her in that group even while she chastises them. Many “dark” Italians, including myself, understand her recollection as a result of personal experience. Both my father and I were teased as children, also in response to our dark tans in the summer, called mulignan—Italian slang for melanzana (meaning eggplant). This term is generally used as a racial slur against African-Americans—commenting on the darkness of skin. It has been further Americanized into moolie, a more popular racial insult.

One reason for this common experience that my father and I share is our similar coloring, hair texture, and certain distinct facial features. Now for the dirty little secret: My father’s family is from Sicily, the bottom of the Italian cultural and racial hierarchy. I was only half-jokingly told as a child to never admit that I was Sicilian. But often, my phenotype could not hide me (these statements came from my mother’s side of the family, of course, who were from the Naples area. This is especially paradoxical because Naples is not exactly northern Italy). Northern Italians are known to be merchants, upper class, cultured, and unmistakably light-skinned. Southerners were historically agricultural and manual laborers, the working poor, notably darker-skinned, and therefore discriminated against within Italian culture. Raffo explains cultural notions about Sicilians:

Italians in the U.S. are the southerners, the dark ones, the ignorant peasants who carry statues of the Virgin Mary through their neighborhoods and faint with religious passion. They are not the Venetians or Florentines, the ancestors of the deMedicis, the Michaelangelos and daVincis. No, those are Europeans. Historical moments eventually led to the creation of democracy. Italians, well, they are something different. They come in large and dirty numbers to Ellis Island. Too many of them really. Not all the way white. Certainly not white enough, rich enough, or intellectual enough to understand Faulkner. This is not about race. This is about class. About culture and history. And then it is about race. (201)

Raffo articulates this intra-national division, and also my own confusion about how to locate these personal and institutional issues. In examining my own whiteness, this mixture of memories and messages are difficult to place. Is this about race? Class? Culture? History? Ethnicity? Where can I make distinctions in this process?

Due to these differences in race, class, culture, and history, my parents’ marriage was close to an interracial one, and this prejudice was even more pronounced generations earlier. In Were You Always an Italian? Maria Laurino locates herself as an Italian woman, and describes the history of Italian racism against people of African descent, exemplified in the murders of several Black men in Bensonhurst, New York. She writes,

I felt the danger of being a modern participant in the complex historical relationship between the southern Italian, whose land borders Africa and was dominated for centuries by dark-skinned Moors, and the black man. At the beginning of the century, olive-skinned southern Italians brought an ambiguous racial identity to their new land, causing a U.S. Senate to label them “nonwhite”; and ethnic historians have noted that because Italian-American agricultural workers in the post-Reconstruction South resembled their black coworkers, they were similarly subjected to the restrictions of Jim Crow legislation. Over a hundred years later, the intertwining of olive and chocolate, still threatened the sense of Italian-American wholeness; the Bensonhurst neighborhood fought to maintain its slight tilt toward the whiteness on the melatonin scale. (125)



In attempts to taunt me as a child, my full lips and curly hair acted as evidence for my tormentors that Sicily is the closest land to Africa. The rest of this logic was never outwardly stated, but this meant to them that I, too, was Black, and, by extension, somehow less. Perhaps it is precisely because of these “slight” distinctions in color that Italians are so preoccupied with maintaining these differences, invested in their whiteness, and therefore their privilege. Guidice accuses her fellow Italians of racist practices:

How could those people even begin to think that these folks from Algeria or Morocco or Eritrea are less than them based on skin color? Half the time, they’re the same color. The cultures are so inter-dependant and connected. It’s an absurdity that I don’t get—and that I do get, too. (Bulkin 228)



She “gets it” because of the ways she has been affected by racism, as both perpetrator and victim both inside and outside Italian-American culture.

Laurino recollects her white classmates speaking of “those smelly Italians” and her experiences and fears about this designation being used against her. She remembers being conscious of trying not to smell like garlic or any other “Italian” scents. Characterizing groups as smelling foul is not unique to Italians, but is part of many prejudicial ideologies of “the lower class.” A sink or stench is usually associated with being unclean, and therefore, poor. This is especially applicable to dark-skinned groups, where the “logical” equation is dark equals dirty equals smelly. As result of the social hierarchy in Italy, Sicilians were considered especially putrid. Laurino spoke with a young Italian woman in Bensonhurt who said, “Some people told me I’m black because I’m part from Sicily […] my uncle […] teases me and says, ‘Sicily is not a part of Italy. That’s the crap the boot’s about to step on’” (147).

Partially due to clearly hateful messages about darkness, which are related to race and class both within and outside of Italian communities, and combined with the ambiguous phenotype of many Italians, many families did their best to cling to, claim, and legitimate their whiteness. This was easier for northern and/or light-skinned Italians, but those whose appearance questioned the neatly defined racial categories in the United States often went to great lengths to “assimilate” into American whiteness. In a poem called “Blending In,” Mary Russo Demetrick presents her attraction to the culture of Italianness, while meanwhile recognizing their need to conceal their collective identity:

Wild-eyed Italians

wild-haired Italians

loud speaking

loud laughing

women and men

fascinate me



I find them hiding

behind Anglo names

like Kennedy, Litz

and Scott

wanting to be discovered

dreading the exposure (193)



I grew up with many Italian-Americans who had intentionally changed their last names. Again, this is not unique to Italians, and many ethnic immigrant groups have historically done the same. In the television show The Sopranos, the main character, Tony, reveals his understanding of the attempt by other Italians to whitewash themselves when he calls them “wonder bread WOPS.” I remember being struck by the term, and although previously unfamiliar with it, I knew immediately what it meant. This example intrigues me for many reasons. First, The Sopranos is another of a myriad of media representations of Italians as uneducated mobsters. Secondly, “WOP” is a slur historically used against Italians, thought to date from the inscription for “without papers” stamped by Ellis Island officials on to immigration documents. “WOP” acts as a class indicator in this way, a representation of the masses of poor, undocumented Italians seeking refuge in America. Tony Soprano’s use of the phrase “Wonder bread,” is also significant, stemming from the idea that “real” Italians would always only eat Italian bread, and never processed American “white” bread. In this way, white bread equals white bred. Ruth Frankenberg makes a related argument about the use of commodities as a metaphor for race. From a series of interviews, she notes that

[w]hiteness is often signified in these narratives by commodities and brands: Wonder bread, Kleenex, Heinz 57. In this identification, witnesses came to be seen as spoiled by capitalism, and as being linked to capitalism in a way that other cultures supposedly are not. (White Women 199)



I recognize that my own use of the term “white” shifts throughout this discussion, applied to both Italians and non-Italians. Perhaps a better signifier would not be “white” because of the tenuous relationship that Italians have with that category, but WASP, meaning “white Anglo-Saxon protestant.” Italian-Americans do not usually use this term, but a related one—medigan—which is derived from an Italian-inflected pronunciation of “American.” It is used most often as a noun, to technically (and disdainfully) describe anyone who is not Italian, but when I think critically about its use, the most usual application is to the “WASP” described above. It is almost never used to describe a person of color, but almost always a white (bred) person. This composes a complicated message about race, class, history, ethnicity, and culture, as it is used to distinguish ourselves from whites as “Other” (inferring some sort of cultural superiority), while still never admitting that we are not white.

Raffo, in description of how white (WASP) students responded to her while in college, recognizes this awkward racial space. She writes,

How can I sit here and tell you that when that kid in college told me I was not ‘all the way white,” his word had meaning for me? That I understood what he meant? That I knew he didn’t think I was ‘coloured’ but that he told me my white was different than his? Not as pure? What still fascinates me and I have yet to place it the way my whiteness, as configured by my uncle and by the kids at school and in college, was not-all-the-way white, it was white with a problem, white with a hidden secret, a hidden darkness. My whiteness was a white they used their racism to define. (201)



Raffo immediately identifies this statement as being difficult to place, although she knows that it is about her dark skin, her southern Italian heritage, her class, culture, and style of expression, all in relation to a larger, systematic racism. Similarly, Guidice remembers, “I got the message over and over again from my peer group that I was too intense, that I really needed to cool it out. Fit in. I was too much. I didn’t conform to Anglo cultural standards” (Bulkin 216). Again, I know this from my own experiences of being criticized for talking and laughing too loud, being too expressive, too emotional, doing too much with my hands—in general, just being too much. These differences have led many Italians to consciously embrace Anglicized names and cultural practices in order to be more upwardly mobile. Color lines within Italian communities are internalized and expanded to race relations in the U.S. as a whole. Laurino begins her text with a quotation from Italo Calvino in order to introduce her work on Italian-American experience, and for the purposes of this paper, I, too, find it particularly fitting. Calvin writes,

Questo e il punto: rendere espliciti I rapporti

Col mondo che ognuno di noi porta con se, e che oggi

Si tendo a nascondere, a far diventare inconsci, credendo

Che in questo moso spariscano, mentre invece…



This is the point: to make explicit the relationship

With the world that each of us bears within himself,

And which today we tend to hide, to make unconscious,

Believing in that in this way it disappears, whereas…



In uncovering my relationship to my ethnic heritage and my white privilege, I hope not to hide behind either.
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PostPosted: Sun 16 Jul 2006 00:22    Post subject: Good Article Reply with quote

This is a very good article and a very important one, for the experiences of peoples of Southern and Eastern European descent needs to be told, especially in light of recent debates on immigration, the war in the Middle East, terrorism, multiculturalism, diversity.

Back in the day, people in power didn't consider Southern Italians white. In some parts of the nation, the South in particular, they were classed with Blacks and were treated as such. Even today, in some parts of the country, Southern Italians with olive, tan, or Brown complection with dark hair/eyes are profiled and mistaken as Latinos, "Blacks", or Middle Eastern, especially in certain parts of the Midwest. It's just not reported in the press.

Take a look of the painting of a very beautiful Capri/Neapolitan girl Rosina Ferrara that was painted by 19th century artist John Singer Sargent below:




Isn't she lovely? She kind of reminds me of Chilli of TLC.
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PostPosted: Sun 16 Jul 2006 03:14    Post subject: Re: Good Article Reply with quote

srb71 wrote:
..
Take a look of the painting of a very beautiful Capri/Neapolitan girl Rosina Ferrara that was painted by 19th century artist John Singer Sargent below:[/b]



Isn't she lovely? She kind of reminds me of Chilli of TLC.


Hi,

In Latin America we have always know that many Italians, Spanish and French people have dark skin, and we have always considered them Europeans. What else could they be? Yes. If British, German or Swedish people with very marked mongolian features are considered Europeans, why dark Southerners should be excluded.

Dark skinned Southern European are Mediterraneans. And they have been part of the West since the beginning. Actually, they founded it. They are not Black people, but not Nordics either. People should know they exist!

Nordic light skinned people should remember that they were Barbarians not long time ago. Blond hair, blue eyes, and light skins, were synonims of Barbarian in Greek and Roman times, and they were treated as bad as the anglos treated Natives Americans during the colonization of the U.S.

And they should not forget that precisely those dark fellows of Southern Europe, the Middle East and Northern Europe, were the ones that created the so called "Western Civilization".

It is so shameful that nordics are so ignorant of the past of its own civilization. Now, go to see once again Roman and Greek paintings. Notice the people they represent are not nordics.

Omar Vega
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PostPosted: Sun 16 Jul 2006 04:04    Post subject: Reply with quote

She doesn't look anything like Chili to me. Surprised
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PostPosted: Sun 16 Jul 2006 06:16    Post subject: Re: Good Article Reply with quote

srb71 wrote:
This is a very good article and a very important one, for the experiences of peoples of Southern and Eastern European descent needs to be told, especially in light of recent debates on immigration, the war in the Middle East, terrorism, multiculturalism, diversity.

Back in the day, people in power didn't consider Southern Italians white. In some parts of the nation, the South in particular, they were classed with Blacks and were treated as such. Even today, in some parts of the country, Southern Italians with olive, tan, or Brown complection with dark hair/eyes are profiled and mistaken as Latinos, "Blacks", or Middle Eastern, especially in certain parts of the Midwest. It's just not reported in the press.

Take a look of the painting of a very beautiful Capri/Neapolitan girl Rosina Ferrara that was painted by 19th century artist John Singer Sargent below:




Isn't she lovely? She kind of reminds me of Chilli of TLC.


A woman that sat on my jury, years back, was full figured with ample a$# and dark skin and dark hair and to this day one of the top 100 finest women I've ever seen. Anyways I thought she was Latina till my lawyer - who had met her years before - stated she was Sicilian. The woman was probably as dark as me but with more olive tone than my briwn mulatto tone. Infact she was darker than some mixed Latinas I've seen.

Another story, kind of funny, a friend of mine had a wife (she's passed away) that was half German and half Sicilian. Her father was Sicilian. Anyways she recalled how one day her father was out cutting the front lawn when she was a teenager, and the phone rings, it her neighbor. Her neighbor and older white woman, wanted to know who was that "Black man" out there cutting their lawn. She yelled back at her, "That's my father!" Laughing (this was in the Midwest by the way. And her father had developed a dark tan in the summer sun)

Of course many Sicilians look as White as any German, so it all depends.
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PostPosted: Sun 16 Jul 2006 06:28    Post subject: Re: Good Article Reply with quote

oevega wrote:
srb71 wrote:
..
Take a look of the painting of a very beautiful Capri/Neapolitan girl Rosina Ferrara that was painted by 19th century artist John Singer Sargent below:[/b]



Isn't she lovely? She kind of reminds me of Chilli of TLC.


Hi,

In Latin America we have always know that many Italians, Spanish and French people have dark skin, and we have always considered them Europeans. What else could they be? Yes. If British, German or Swedish people with very marked mongolian features are considered Europeans, why dark Southerners should be excluded.


Interesting you say that. My German side of my family - per my mother's surname (grandfathers side) hails from Trier, Germany. But on my German grandmother's side, her peoples come from Hungary too.

My great-uncle or great-great-uncle, can't remember which, who hangs up over my mothers fireplace in antique frame, is in U.S. Army uniform, he served in WWI. He clearly has slanted eyes. Laughing

Quote:

Dark skinned Southern European are Mediterraneans. And they have been part of the West since the beginning. Actually, they founded it. They are not Black people, but not Nordics either. People should know they exist!

Nordic light skinned people should remember that they were Barbarians not long time ago. Blond hair, blue eyes, and light skins, were synonims of Barbarian in Greek and Roman times, and they were treated as bad as the anglos treated Natives Americans during the colonization of the U.S.

And they should not forget that precisely those dark fellows of Southern Europe, the Middle East and Northern Europe, were the ones that created the so called "Western Civilization".

It is so shameful that nordics are so ignorant of the past of its own civilization. Now, go to see once again Roman and Greek paintings. Notice the people they represent are not nordics.

Omar Vega


Interesting tid bit, Saxon comes from the word seax which means or meant "knife." Because the Saxon warriors fighting the Roman British outposts primarily used knives (and shields). So bacily Saxon could be understood to mean "knife fighter." Laughing Recalling her primative form of warfare against professional trained troops like the Romans who were issued swords.

But those knife fighters grew up to rule the world from India to North America. Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun 16 Jul 2006 13:40    Post subject: Re: Good Article Reply with quote

e harmoni wrote:
..But those knife fighters grew up to rule the world from India to North America. Laughing


Yes, but don't worry. If they are at the top now, they will certainly fail in the future. That happened to Chineses, Romans, Mayans and many others. So far there is no insurace that a culture remains at the top forever. None have done.

We Hispanics know that. From being part of the most important empire the world even saw, the Spanish Empire, we went in a big decline to the point now people look us down. However, we know things are not permanent. Everything that goes up get down, and viceversa Wink

Omar
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PostPosted: Sun 16 Jul 2006 22:14    Post subject: Re: Good Article Reply with quote

oevega wrote:
srb71 wrote:
..
Take a look of the painting of a very beautiful Capri/Neapolitan girl Rosina Ferrara that was painted by 19th century artist John Singer Sargent below:[/b]



Isn't she lovely? She kind of reminds me of Chilli of TLC.


Hi,

In Latin America we have always know that many Italians, Spanish and French people have dark skin, and we have always considered them Europeans.

Hi, O I don't think calling someone European and White are the same. Many/most people equate White with White Anglo Saxon Protestant (WASP). No one is denying the European part, but when equated with the American standard of Whiteness certain groups don't / haven't fit in.

What else could they be? Yes. If British, German or Swedish people with very marked mongolian features are considered Europeans, why dark Southerners should be excluded.

Many Italians/Sicilians went to South America / Brazil (as well as Canada) especially and there they were not made to feel they had to forget who they are/where they come from, their Italian names and language, as it did in the US.

Dark skinned Southern European are Mediterraneans. And they have been part of the West since the beginning. Actually, they founded it. They are not Black people, but not Nordics either. People should know they exist!

Australia had similar reactions to Mediterranean people:Greeks Turks Italians/Sicilians, they were discriminated against and a common ethnic slur toward those groups is a WOG, from what I've read it had/has the same sting as Ni@@er. This term is also used in Northern Europe especially in England.

Nordic light skinned people should remember that they were Barbarians not long time ago. Blond hair, blue eyes, and light skins, were synonims of Barbarian in Greek and Roman times, and they were treated as bad as the anglos treated Natives Americans during the colonization of the U.S.

And they should not forget that precisely those dark fellows of Southern Europe, the Middle East and Northern Europe, were the ones that created the so called "Western Civilization".

It is so shameful that nordics are so ignorant of the past of its own civilization. Now, go to see once again Roman and Greek paintings. Notice the people they represent are not nordics.

Omar Vega
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PostPosted: Sun 16 Jul 2006 22:19    Post subject: Re: Good Article Reply with quote

e harmoni wrote:
srb71 wrote:
This is a very good article and a very important one, for the experiences of peoples of Southern and Eastern European descent needs to be told, especially in light of recent debates on immigration, the war in the Middle East, terrorism, multiculturalism, diversity.

Back in the day, people in power didn't consider Southern Italians white. In some parts of the nation, the South in particular, they were classed with Blacks and were treated as such. Even today, in some parts of the country, Southern Italians with olive, tan, or Brown complection with dark hair/eyes are profiled and mistaken as Latinos, "Blacks", or Middle Eastern, especially in certain parts of the Midwest. It's just not reported in the press.

Take a look of the painting of a very beautiful Capri/Neapolitan girl Rosina Ferrara that was painted by 19th century artist John Singer Sargent below:




Isn't she lovely? She kind of reminds me of Chilli of TLC.


A woman that sat on my jury, years back, was full figured with ample a$# and dark skin and dark hair and to this day one of the top 100 finest women I've ever seen. Anyways I thought she was Latina till my lawyer - who had met her years before - stated she was Sicilian. The woman was probably as dark as me but with more olive tone than my briwn mulatto tone. Infact she was darker than some mixed Latinas I've seen.

Another story, kind of funny, a friend of mine had a wife (she's passed away) that was half German and half Sicilian. Her father was Sicilian. Anyways she recalled how one day her father was out cutting the front lawn when she was a teenager, and the phone rings, it her neighbor. Her neighbor and older white woman, wanted to know who was that "Black man" out there cutting their lawn. She yelled back at her, "That's my father!" Laughing (this was in the Midwest by the way. And her father had developed a dark tan in the summer sun)

Of course many Sicilians look as White as any German, so it all depends.


lol I have a Siciliana friend who I met from work, one day I went to her office space and I saw pictures she had up on her wall. I saw one picture with her, her sister and (a black dude) I knew she dated black men so wanted to know what was up... She started laughing and said it was her brother. And he was dark, she got really brown in the Spring/Summer months herself.

I'll see if I can find the story but in Louisiana I believe there was a case of a Negro man caught in a sexual situation with supposedly a white women. But the case was dismissd when they realized the women "was not White but Sicilian" it was no longer Mescogenation.
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PostPosted: Mon 17 Jul 2006 00:16    Post subject: Blacks? Reply with quote

gemini072 wrote:
...
lol I have a Siciliana friend who I met from work, one day I went to her office space and I saw pictures she had up on her wall. I saw one picture with her, her sister and (a black dude) I knew she dated black men so wanted to know what was up... She started laughing and said it was her brother. And he was dark, she got really brown in the Spring/Summer months herself.
...


It really amazes me how ignorants are Americans about geography Wink

Look. This is the map of the Western Mediterranean Sea:



I bet you can cross rowing from Sicily to Africa and viceversa.

To have an idea of the distances, this pictures show how far is Spain from Africa, seen from Gibraltar. I bet one can cross swimming.



Now, something that Nordics don't know is that Italians, Spaniards, Arabs, and others Mediterranean people tan very dark. Yes, people in the U.S. is so unbelievable ignorant about Mediterraneans.

These are the same persons, with tan and without tan:

Spanish woman



Italian soccer player



Greek model



Sicilian



Now, these are pictures of North Africans
ej. Algerians:




Tunisians (voting in Canada):



The problem with both Blacks and White people of the U.S. is that they don't understand there are people between both groups. What a powerful country but what a bad education. Lord Smile

Regards,

Omar Vega
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PostPosted: Mon 17 Jul 2006 00:53    Post subject: Re: Good Article Reply with quote

gemini072 wrote:
I'll see if I can find the story but in Louisiana I believe there was a case of a Negro man caught in a sexual situation with supposedly a white women. But the case was dismissd when they realized the women "was not White but Sicilian" it was no longer Mescogenation.

That was Rollins v. State, 1922 Alabama (18 Ala. App. 353). The following is from The Jim Crow Triumph of the One-Drop Rule:
the essay wrote:
In 1921, a Jefferson County, Alabama, court convicted Jim and Edith Rollins of interracial sex. Rollins was an elderly African-looking businessman. Edith Labue was a European-looking woman from Sicily. Miscegenation was a serious crime at that place and time, punishable with a mandatory two to seven years in the state penitentiary for each party. But it would have been hopeless to argue that Jim was not Black. His dark brown complexion had more of Africa than of Europe in it, and the state’s one-drop “racial” definition was clear: “The word ‘negro’ means [anyone with] negro ancestors, without reference to or limit of time or number of generations.” The Rollins couple appealed their conviction in Rollins v. State, 1922 Alabama, presenting the state Court of Appeals with a problem. The court apparently did not want to lock up an elderly couple who were respected members of their community. How could the court legitimately let the Rollins couple off the hook? The solution was elegantly simple. Alabama’s definition effectively labeled as “Negro” every Mediterranean native from Athens to Gibraltar since ancient times. On January 17, 1922, Judge Bricken reasoned that no evidence suggested that Sicilians were White under the law. Hence, the couple had violated no statute, and their conviction was reversed.
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PostPosted: Mon 17 Jul 2006 01:24    Post subject: Re: Good Article Reply with quote

fwsweet wrote:
..Alabama’s definition effectively labeled as “Negro” every Mediterranean native from Athens to Gibraltar since ancient times.


Jesus Frank!

Is there something more ignorant that one White Alabaman judge?

The guy left out of the West not only Crete, Greece and Rome, but Jews as well. All the founding civilizations of the West. I wonder what contribution to civilization have done the backwards white people of the South of the United States to justify that Wink

Yes, Mediterraneans have always known that attitude, and the hate of the south against the north of Europe is also very strong. No wonder that when something really bad happens in Northern Europe many people from the South could not stop laughing.

By the way, most Europeans that came to Latin America were from Southern Europe, so I guess, according to Alabamans, we are all "Negro" as well. "Negros" comming from Europe, but "Negros" anyways.

That's not a joke. I hear that phrase from a German Canadian once. (What racist people are some Mongoloid Germans, anyways. Wink)

Omar
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PostPosted: Mon 17 Jul 2006 01:43    Post subject: Re: Good Article Reply with quote

oevega wrote:
Is there something more ignorant that one White Alabaman judge?

Actually, Justice Bricken was a reasonably enlightened man. His problem was that his hands were tied by an insane statute. The written law that he was tasked with upholding legislated the ODR (as did most states at the time). I admire his ingenuity in achieving justice while enforcing the law to the letter. Other judges would have sent the couple to the penitentiary.

Here is another aspect about that case that indicates Bricken's view. The only evidence that the couple were having sex (other than that they lived together) was Jim Rollin's confession. But a city detective had extracted the confession by the simple expedient of pushing the muzzle of a loaded revolver against Jim Rollin's forehead and telling him that if he did not sign the police-written confession, he would blow his brains out. This was normal police procedure at the time. Justice Bricken threw out the confession, long before the Miranda precedents.
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PostPosted: Mon 17 Jul 2006 02:18    Post subject: Re: Good Article Reply with quote

fwsweet wrote:
oevega wrote:
Is there something more ignorant that one White Alabaman judge?

Actually, Justice Bricken was a reasonably enlightened man. His problem was that his hands were tied by an insane statute. The written law that he was tasked with upholding legislated the ODR (as did most states at the time). I admire his ingenuity in achieving justice while enforcing the law to the letter. Other judges would have sent the couple to the penitentiary.

Here is another aspect about that case that indicates Bricken's view. The only evidence that the couple were having sex (other than that they lived together) was Jim Rollin's confession. But a city detective had extracted the confession by the simple expedient of pushing the muzzle of a loaded revolver against Jim Rollin's forehead and telling him that if he did not sign the police-written confession, he would blow his brains out. This was normal police procedure at the time. Justice Bricken threw out the confession, long before the Miranda precedents.


Hi Frank,

It is unbelievable. It seems that Kafka got its inspiration from the racist establishment of the United States.

How come in a land that pride of its freedom could the state intervine in regulating the personal choices of individuals? And in such a private matter like it is to choice a spouse.

It is so sad. And so disgusting that the state have the power to control love. And sorry if I get too emotional sometimes, but this is an issue that make me furious.

Omar
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PostPosted: Mon 17 Jul 2006 11:59    Post subject: Re: Good Article Reply with quote

oevega wrote:
How come in a land that pride of its freedom could the state intervine in regulating the personal choices of individuals?

It still does, very actively and aggressively, in many "race"-based federal and state laws (and regulations) that are being enforced every day even as we speak. If this were not so, no one would ever visit this forum.
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PostPosted: Mon 17 Jul 2006 12:41    Post subject: Re: Blacks? Reply with quote

oevega wrote:
gemini072 wrote:
...
lol I have a Siciliana friend who I met from work, one day I went to her office space and I saw pictures she had up on her wall. I saw one picture with her, her sister and (a black dude) I knew she dated black men so wanted to know what was up... She started laughing and said it was her brother. And he was dark, she got really brown in the Spring/Summer months herself.
...


It really amazes me how ignorants are Americans about geography Wink



The picture I was looking at you could not tell who the guy in the picture was. Because my friend dated black men I naturally assumed. I met her sister so I knew who she was, hadn't met her brother at the time and couldn't see the face from where I was standing.

Actually O this knowledge isn't missing from many Americans, it's been long believed that Italians/Sicilians have African ancestry or saying such as 'Sicily begins in Africa' do I wouldn't say Americans are ignorant about geography.


Look. This is the map of the Western Mediterranean Sea:



I bet you can cross rowing from Sicily to Africa and viceversa.

To have an idea of the distances, this pictures show how far is Spain from Africa, seen from Gibraltar. I bet one can cross swimming.



Now, something that Nordics don't know is that Italians, Spaniards, Arabs, and others Mediterranean people tan very dark. Yes, people in the U.S. is so unbelievable ignorant about Mediterraneans.

lol O why do you keep calling Americans ignorant, Americans do know this, why do you think, when they are cast in movies and films weither or not the person is actually Italian/Sicilian, that most of the time they try to tan then up really good. Most people when they think of Italians & Greeks think of dark curly (greasy) oily hair lot's of body hair and (swarthy) complexions...

These are the same persons, with tan and without tan:

Spanish woman



Italian soccer player



Greek model



Sicilian



Now, these are pictures of North Africans
ej. Algerians:




Tunisians (voting in Canada):



The problem with both Blacks and White people of the U.S. is that they don't understand there are people between both groups. What a powerful country but what a bad education. Lord Smile

Yes they do, and I know many blacks who view Italians as a seperate ethnic group from whites, some whites do to. What I mean is see them as culturally and ethnically different. Growing up I knew a few Italians that did not identify culturally as white and I know some now.

Regards,

Omar Vega
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PostPosted: Mon 17 Jul 2006 15:13    Post subject: Re: Blacks? Reply with quote

gemini072 wrote:
...
Actually O this knowledge isn't missing from many Americans, it's been long believed that Italians/Sicilians have African ancestry or saying such as 'Sicily begins in Africa' do I wouldn't say Americans are ignorant about geography.


Yes. But you, Americans, can't figure it out as things really are. You either push Souther Europe into Africa or North of Africa into Europe. You don't realize that what matters is not Europe or Africa, but the Mediterranean.

You still have to find out that ALL THE people that surrounds the Mediterranean, from Spain and Morocco to Turkey and Egypt, including Arabs, Jews and Persians, are related. Closely related people!

They are the famous Mediterranean people. That both Blacks and Whites of the U.S. usually ignore.

Jesus! I look mediterranean, and I have met Arabs, Persians and Paquistanies and I look exactly like them Wink

Quote:
Most people when they think of Italians & Greeks think of dark curly (greasy) oily hair lot's of body hair and (swarthy) complexions...


Yes. And they should be know for what they are: Mediterraneans. Not Black or White wannabes.

Quote:

Yes they do, and I know many blacks who view Italians as a seperate ethnic group from whites, some whites do to. What I mean is see them as culturally and ethnically different. Growing up I knew a few Italians that did not identify culturally as white and I know some now.


And from here we don't confuse them either. Italians is a fellow Latin people. Mediterranean people. We would never say an Italian is a "gringo" Wink

Omar
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PostPosted: Mon 17 Jul 2006 15:26    Post subject: Re: Blacks? Reply with quote

oevega wrote:
gemini072 wrote:
...
Actually O this knowledge isn't missing from many Americans, it's been long believed that Italians/Sicilians have African ancestry or saying such as 'Sicily begins in Africa' do I wouldn't say Americans are ignorant about geography.


Yes. But you, Americans, can't figure it out as things really are. You either push Souther Europe into Africa or North of Africa into Europe. You don't realize that what matters is not Europe or Africa, but the Mediterranean.

So your saying that all Latinos got it together, and understand all this too? What really is the truth... O, the Mediterranean is part of Africa part of Europe part of the Middle East.. Yet it's another place altogether. And I do see Mediterraneans differently.

As an American I really don't care for to much generalization against Americans, people from NY(NYC) see things differently than maybe people from Florida or Texas etc etc I think that is something many non-Americans don't understand. That weither it be N S E W urban suburban rural there is no 1 American mindset or way of life.


You still have to find out that ALL THE people that surrounds the Mediterranean, from Spain and Morocco to Turkey and Egypt, including Arabs, Jews and Persians, are related. Closely related people!

They are the famous Mediterranean people. That both Blacks and Whites of the U.S. usually ignore.

Well I probably know more Black & Mixed Americans than you & I can say from conversations about this stuff, that I disagree with that statement.

Jesus! I look mediterranean, and I have met Arabs, Persians and Paquistanies and I look exactly like them Wink

Probably O, even though many of these people do have their own distinct looks, there are others who would be mistaken for another of the groups you mentioned. And example that you used was Sicilian -Ramond Romano He could easily be taken for a Middle Eastern
Quote:
Most people when they think of Italians & Greeks think of dark curly (greasy) oily hair lot's of body hair and (swarthy) complexions...


Yes. And they should be know for what they are: Mediterraneans. Not Black or White wannabes.

Personally I agree, but here, Mediterranean peoples have to make that distinction themselves. The Arab American Asso. in the US is trying to get their designation changed from White to Arab.

Quote:

Yes they do, and I know many blacks who view Italians as a seperate ethnic group from whites, some whites do to. What I mean is see them as culturally and ethnically different. Growing up I knew a few Italians that did not identify culturally as white and I know some now.


And from here we don't confuse them either. Italians is a fellow Latin people. Mediterranean people. We would never say an Italian is a "gringo" Wink

Omar



Raymond Romano


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PostPosted: Mon 17 Jul 2006 15:48    Post subject: images of Italian/Sicilian Americans Reply with quote


Nick Discenza


Mike Marino


Jim Mauro


Jimmy Santangelo


Giovanni Sanseviero


JoAnn Bacchi


Carla Occhiogrosso

www.giaa.us/[/img]
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PostPosted: Mon 17 Jul 2006 16:28    Post subject: Re: Blacks? Reply with quote

gemini072 wrote:



Actually O this knowledge isn't missing from many Americans, it's been long believed that Italians/Sicilians have African ancestry or saying such as 'Sicily begins in Africa' do I wouldn't say Americans are ignorant about geography.


Smile Hey, gemini?

Omar, is pretty correct though, in general many Americans are ignorant of geography. I myself could use a lot of improvement on my knowledge of geography, and I think I'm slightly better than your average American that has either recieved 12 years of education or even obtained an Associates degree.

I will grant this though that it is normal to all humanity to lose what you don't use. I'm sure we can find that to be true of all nationalities.

Quote:

lol O why do you keep calling Americans ignorant, Americans do know this, why do you think, when they are cast in movies and films weither or not the person is actually Italian/Sicilian, that most of the time they try to tan then up really good. Most people when they think of Italians & Greeks think of dark curly (greasy) oily hair lot's of body hair and (swarthy) complexions...


English isn't Omar's first language. And it's evident in how he writes that he hasn't perfected it yet like Jaime (Sal). I could be wrong, but I suspect he uses the word "ignorant," ignorant himself of the contexual way it's used in the English language of the United States.

If I was him and from Spanish speaking Chile, the word "ignorant" would probably be my first choice of word too to describe people that lack knowledge and understanding in something.

I give him props for even knowing and learning a second language.

Quote:

Yes they do, and I know many blacks who view Italians as a seperate ethnic group from whites, some whites do to. What I mean is see them as culturally and ethnically different. Growing up I knew a few Italians that did not identify culturally as white and I know some now.


I'll agree with you here partly.

By-in-large in today's United States, Italians born and raised in the United States are considered White. However there are some people that don't consider them White. Some Black Americans don't consider them White, but some Black Americans do consider them White. I think most White Americans consider them White but for a minority who may still regard them as inferior to Northern Europeans (be that ethnocentric or because they believe Italians are "tainted" with Negro blood). I'm not sure what Latinos or Asians think of them. I'm not sure what Middle Eastern semitcs in the U.S. think of them either. I just no the overall arching culture has basicly incorporated them into "White America." (but of course there was a time when that wasn't so)
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