Joined: 28 Apr 2006 {Posts: 282 } Location: 51st State
Posted: Mon 24 Jul 2006 17:15 Post subject: Re: Afrocentrism
fwsweet wrote:
Altertude wrote:
Yes, perhaps that is because of the former Eurocentric claim that Ancient Egypt was a "white" civilisation and its influence on Greece, to which much European philosophy and science took pride in tracing back their culture.
I would be grateful for an example or two of this. I have read a great deal of ancient and classical history. And, of the ancient and classical history that I have read that was written by Europeans, much of it does express pride in tracing European phlosophy and science to ancient Egypt. But I cannot recall ever reading a work on ancient or classical history that labeled ancient Egypt as a "white" civilization. I understand (although I do not agree with) Altertude's attempt to justify Afrocentrist deliberate falsification on the grounds that Eurocentrist "Whites" started it. But I question whether Eurocentrist "Whites" ever did any such thing. A concrete example or two would suffice, thank you.
Again, I am looking for an example or two of a Eurocentric historian referring to ancient Egypt as a "white" civilization. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Cheik Anta Diop in African Origin of Civilisation Myth or Reality, takes to task the founder of Egyptology, Champollion-Figeac after charging the field of Egyptology with trying in vain to find a white origin for Egyptian civilisation, despite performing intellectual acrobatics to do so. Diop and his followers argue that Egypt (Kemet) was a Black Negroid civilization from its earliest dynasties. On p.51., of African Origin’ Diop quotes Champollion-Figeac, Egypte ancienne. Paris: Collection, l’Univers, 1839, pp.30-31.
“It is recognised today that the inhabitants of Africa belong to three races, quite distinct from each other for all time: 1. Negroes proper, in Central and west Africa; 2. Kaffirs on the east coast, who have a less obtuse facial angle than Blacks and a high nose, but thick lips and wooly hair; 3. Moors, similar in stature, physiognomy and hair to the best-formed nations of Europe and western Asia, and differing only in skin color which is tanned by the climate. The ancient population of Egypt belonged to this later race, that is to the white race. To be convinced of this we need only examine the human figures representing Egyptians on the monuments and above all the great number of mummies that have been opened. Except for the color of skin, blackened by the hot climate, they are the same men as those of Europe and Western Asia: frizzy, woolly hair is the true characteristic of the Negro race; the Egyptians, however, had long hair, identical with that of the white race of the west.”
Another is Maspero, who finds Count Volney’s descriptions of Egyptians, Colchians, and Ethiopians from first hand observation a “common error” and concludes the error vanishes after the publication of the “great work” by the French Commission:
“One examining innumerable reproductions of statues and bas-reliefs, recognized that the people represented on the monuments, instead of preserving peculiarities and the general appearance of the Negro, really resembled the fine white races of Europe and Western Asia...” African Origin, p.73.
These and other antiquarians set a tone wherby 19th century historians, archaeologists, ethnologists, biologists and anatomists, seem to have settled on characterising whites, “hamitics” or “semitics” as the major impetus to the civilising of any possible negro populations of the Nile Delta. Martin Bernal in his Black Athena: Afro-Asiatic Roots of Classical Civilization called this the ‘Broad Aryan Model’. Steven Howe’s critical review of Afrocentric scholarship, Afrocentrism: Mythical Pasts and Imagined Homes takes for granted the Afrocentrists are arguing against an ingrained Eurocentric view that Egyptian civilisation, its rulers, or the architects of its its most important achievements came from outside the continent, but few individual European Historians are singled out to my recollection.
Though not a historian, Wikipedia articles flag up , father of ethnology Samuel George Morton, as stating Egyptians were not African, but were white.
Posted: Mon 24 Jul 2006 17:21 Post subject: Re: Afrocentrism
Altertude wrote:
[snipped Afroncentrist drivel, lacking any hint of "an example or two of a Eurocentric historian referring to ancient Egypt as a 'white' civilization."]
Apparently, my explicit and repeated request, "I am looking for an example or two of a Eurocentric historian referring to ancient Egypt as a "white" civilization. Nothing more. Nothing less," was unclear. Let me repeat it louder:
"I am looking for AN EXAMPLE or two of a EUROCENTRIC HISTORIAN referring to ancient Egypt as a "WHITE" CIVILIZATION. Nothing more. Nothing less."
To clarify: I am NOT looking for unsubstantiated Afrocentrist claims that Eurocentric historians referred to ancient Egypt as a "white" civilization. Such unsubstantiated claims are a dime a dozen. I am looking for an example or two of a Eurocentric historian referring to ancient Egypt as a "white" civilization. Nothing more. Nothing less.
I am looking for an example or two of a Eurocentric historian referring to ancient Egypt as a "white" civilization. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Last edited by fwsweet on Mon 24 Jul 2006 17:26; edited 2 times in total
Posted: Mon 24 Jul 2006 17:25 Post subject: Re: Science
oevega wrote:
soserious wrote:
...
hahah speaking of stereotype, you stereotype Africa all the time lol yet, I read your blog about how people stereotyped you in Canada as being from the Amazon Jungle etc ... It is just human nature to stereotype I guess...
Please explain what is my stereotype of Africa, so I can correct it.
Yes, I suffered discrimination by some in Canada, but I beat everyone playing chess, I was the best student in the MS degree compossed mainly of Asian students, and I say Canadians at their face what I though of them. Nobody play with Chileans so easily. We fight, and sometimes we even kill for what we believe is right.
After all we are savages from the jungle... and proud of it
Omar
here is an example of an asian comedian joking about it
Yes. And then it follows that arabs have camel like noses, indian wear feathers, jews are rich, and we end up with the Mexican cartoons.
Explain me what stereotype I have about Africa. Divide Africa in regions, please.
Omar
Let me see... You have the stereotype of the "dark continent" where nothing good comes out of it... If I recall correctly when you speak of Africa you act like it is still in the stone ages selectively choosing to emphasize only the negatives. Even though several countries like Ghana, Botswana and South Africa are moving up...
Posted: Mon 24 Jul 2006 17:43 Post subject: Re: Science
soserious wrote:
Asians MEN have it much worse than mulatto's... They are mainly showed as weak and asexual...
soserious wrote:
here is an example of an asian comedian joking
I was willing to cut Soserious some slack here, because Asian men have been sterotyped as weak and asexual in the cinema until about half-a-century ago. I thout that perhaps he had found some more recent study on this. Instead, his source is a comedy routine. He presents this comedy routine as evidence that (1) Asian men have it much worse than biracial individuals and (2) Asian men are mainly shown as weak and asexual. In fact, the comedy routine does not even touch upon these two points (the comparison with biracial individuals or the ubiquity of the phenomenon). Such running off at the mouth without being able to substantiate factual claims is completely unacceptable in this web site. Soserious must either present some evidence of those points or he is facing another week of suspension.
Joined: 28 Apr 2006 {Posts: 282 } Location: 51st State
Posted: Mon 24 Jul 2006 17:46 Post subject: Re: Afrocentrism
fwsweet wrote:
Altertude wrote:
[snipped Afroncentrist drivel, lacking any hint of "an example or two of a Eurocentric historian referring to ancient Egypt as a 'white' civilization."]
Apparently, my explicit and repeated request, "I am looking for an example or two of a Eurocentric historian referring to ancient Egypt as a "white" civilization. Nothing more. Nothing less," was unclear. Let me repeat it louder:
"I am looking for AN EXAMPLE or two of a EUROCENTRIC HISTORIAN referring to ancient Egypt as a "WHITE" CIVILIZATION. Nothing more. Nothing less."
To clarify: I am NOT looking for unsubstantiated Afrocentrist claims that Eurocentric historians referred to ancient Egypt as a "white" civilization. Such unsubstantiated claims are a dime a dozen. I am looking for an example or two of a Eurocentric historian referring to ancient Egypt as a "white" civilization. Nothing more. Nothing less.
I am looking for an example or two of a Eurocentric historian referring to ancient Egypt as a "white" civilization. Nothing more. Nothing less.
What is a Eurocentric historian? What I have you have, what I said is not what you asked for, if what you asked for is what you want, I don't have it.
Posted: Mon 24 Jul 2006 17:47 Post subject: Re: Science
fwsweet wrote:
soserious wrote:
Asians MEN have it much worse than mulatto's... They are mainly showed as weak and asexual...
soserious wrote:
here is an example of an asian comedian joking
I was willing to cut Soserious some slack here, because Asian men have been sterotyped as weak and asexual in the cinema until about half-a-century ago. I thout that perhaps he had found some more recent study on this. Instead, his source is a comedy routine. He presents this comedy routine as evidence that (1) Asian men have it much worse than biracial individuals and (2) Asian men are mainly shown as weak and asexual. In fact, the comedy routine does not even touch upon these two points (the comparison with biracial individuals or the ubiquity of the phenomenon). Such running off at the mouth without being able to substantiate factual claims is completely unacceptable in this web site. Soserious must either present some evidence of those points or he is facing another week of suspension.
If you want to suspend my account go ahead lol... I don't care... Instead of suspending my account just ban it... It is obvious that many people here don't like my "politics" b/c my point of view is not in the mainstream...
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Mon 24 Jul 2006 17:52 Post subject: Re: Science
soserious wrote:
...Let me see... You have the stereotype of the "dark continent" where nothing good comes out of it... If I recall correctly when you speak of Africa you act like it is still in the stone ages selectively choosing to emphasize only the negatives. Even though several countries like Ghana, Botswana and South Africa are moving up...
First, I am talking of Africa south of the Sahara. The region that was former know like Black Africa.
Now. These are facts about Africa of today:
1- It is the poorest region in the world, with an income per capita equivalent to the poorest country of the Americas which is Haiti.
2- It is a region that is suffering the higest rate of HIV in the world.
3- It is a region that has the lower rate of education of the world, with analphabetism over 40% or perhaps more.
4- It is a region deep into wars like few places in the planet. In the Americas perhaps only Colombia can compares.
5- It is a region where the human rights standard are very low, and the status of the woman is also low.
6- It is a region that suffer cronic hunger.
7. It is a region where supersticion is still an important part of life.
8. It is the region that receives more humanitary help in the world.
9- Population control does not exist and people is heading for distaster.
10- From all the poor regions of the world (Latin America, Asia and Africa),
Africa is the only place that is today more poor than in the 60s.
11- It is a region governed by elites that administrate their countries in a despotic way and where the elite get most of the income.
The case of South Africa is very special because it is still two countries in one.
Posted: Mon 24 Jul 2006 18:05 Post subject: Re: Afrocentrism
Altertude wrote:
What is a Eurocentric historian? What I have you have, what I said is not what you asked for, if what you asked for is what you want, I don't have it.
Your exact words were:
Altertude wrote:
Yes, perhaps that is because of the former Eurocentric claim that Ancient Egypt was a "white" civilisation and its influence on Greece, to which much European philosophy and science took pride in tracing back their culture.
I was seeking an example of this "former Eurocentric claim that Ancient Egypt was a 'white' civilisation." This was because you personally asserted that such a thing existed. Are you now saying that you have never actually seen any such Eurocentric claim ("that Ancient Egypt was a 'white' civilisation")? Are you now saying that your original statement was based solely upon the unsubstantiated rantings of Afrocentrists? If so, why did you pass it along from them to us as if it were your factual finding? If you have no first-hand knowledge that there has ever existed any "former Eurocentric claim that Ancient Egypt was a 'white' civilisation," why did you make it sound like the information was coming from you?
Last edited by fwsweet on Mon 24 Jul 2006 18:18; edited 2 times in total
I do not want to suspend you. Indeed, I would rather not. But you leave me no choice. Although all three of the URLs you gave address the streotyping of Asian men, None of the three even mentions the two specific factual claims that you made: (1) Asian men have it much worse than biracial individuals and (2) Asian men are mainly shown as weak and asexual.
Joined: 28 Apr 2006 {Posts: 282 } Location: 51st State
Posted: Mon 24 Jul 2006 18:40 Post subject: Re: Afrocentrism
fwsweet wrote:
Altertude wrote:
What is a Eurocentric historian? What I have you have, what I said is not what you asked for, if what you asked for is what you want, I don't have it.
Your exact words were:
Altertude wrote:
Yes, perhaps that is because of the former Eurocentric claim that Ancient Egypt was a "white" civilisation and its influence on Greece, to which much European philosophy and science took pride in tracing back their culture.
I was seeking an example of this "former Eurocentric claim that Ancient Egypt was a 'white' civilisation." This was because you personally asserted that such a thing existed. Are you now saying that you have never actually seen any such Eurocentric claim ("that Ancient Egypt was a 'white' civilisation")?
I asserted that I knew of claims by Europeans saying 1) Ancient Egypt was a civilisation, and 2) that its inhabitants were white. I formulated the amalgamation of those two ideas: Egyptians are white so that must mean the civilization was white, therefore white civilization. Later I come to find such a view is Eurocentric. Those words are mine, but I cannot quote a European historian as writing "Ancient Egypt was a 'white' civilisation", not right now maybe not ever.
Quote:
Are you now saying that your original statement was based solely upon the unsubstantiated rantings of Afrocentrists? If so, why did you pass it along from them to us as if it were your factual finding? If you have no first-hand knowledge that there has ever existed any "former Eurocentric claim that Ancient Egypt was a 'white' civilisation," why did you make it sound like the information was coming from you?
How is quoting Champollion-Figeac and the French Commission, the unsubstantiated rantings of Afrocentrists?
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Mon 24 Jul 2006 19:46 Post subject: Re: Afrocentrism
Altertude wrote:
...How is quoting Champollion-Figeac and the French Commission, the unsubstantiated rantings of Afrocentrists?
Well,
Afrocentrism and Eurocentrism show when one fill a list that talks about Latin America and its racial diversity with concepts external to that region.
I have counted the posts in this section and most of them talk about the racial problems of the U.S., Afrocentrism, Ethnocentrism, etc. Nothing that the average Latin American is very much concern. I mean it.
For identity, for us is enough the identity and history of our particular countries. For race, we have solved many problems that affect other regions with tolerancy.
Could we please get focus in Latin America in this part of the site, please
Posted: Mon 24 Jul 2006 19:54 Post subject: Re: Afrocentrism
Altertude wrote:
How is quoting Champollion-Figeac and the French Commission, the unsubstantiated rantings of Afrocentrists?
Sorry. I did not realize that there was a direct quote in there. Now I see that there is a direct quote as follows:
Champollion-Figeac wrote:
“It is recognised today that the inhabitants of Africa belong to three races, quite distinct from each other for all time: 1. Negroes proper...; 2. Kaffirs on the east coast... 3. Moors.... The ancient population of Egypt belonged to this later race, that is to the white race. -- 1839.
I think that I understand your point, now. You responded to the following statement:
Quote:
I bet I appreciate more West African culture and its heritage than most Afrocentric intelectuals. Yes, they are in love with "Kemet", but downplay West Africa.
by writing:
Altertude wrote:
Yes, perhaps that is because of the former Eurocentric claim that Ancient Egypt was a "white" civilisation and its influence on Greece, to which much European philosophy and science took pride in tracing back their culture.
As I now understand your point, today's Afroncentrist fixation on Egypt (and the insitence that Egyptians were really "black") is because nearly two centuries ago a Frenchman wrote that Egyptians were "white." Interesting. Thank you for the clarification.
Incidentally, you may be interested to know that a current U.S. federal law, the violation of which is enforceable by fine or incarceration, officially decrees that all modern Egyptians are "white," no matter what they look like.
Joined: 28 Apr 2006 {Posts: 282 } Location: 51st State
Posted: Mon 24 Jul 2006 20:36 Post subject: Re: Afrocentrism
fwsweet wrote:
As I now understand your point, today's Afroncentrist fixation on Egypt (and the insitence that Egyptians were really "black") is because nearly two centuries ago a Frenchman wrote that Egyptians were "white." Interesting. Thank you for the clarification.
Incidentally, you may be interested to know that a current U.S. federal law, the violation of which is enforceable by fine or incarceration, officially decrees that all modern Egyptians are "white," no matter what they look like.
Joined: 28 Apr 2006 {Posts: 282 } Location: 51st State
Posted: Mon 24 Jul 2006 20:56 Post subject: Re: Afrocentrism
oevega wrote:
Altertude wrote:
...How is quoting Champollion-Figeac and the French Commission, the unsubstantiated rantings of Afrocentrists?
Well,
Afrocentrism and Eurocentrism show when one fill a list that talks about Latin America and its racial diversity with concepts external to that region.
I have counted the posts in this section and most of them talk about the racial problems of the U.S., Afrocentrism, Ethnocentrism, etc. Nothing that the average Latin American is very much concern. I mean it.
For identity, for us is enough the identity and history of our particular countries. For race, we have solved many problems that affect other regions with tolerancy.
Could we please get focus in Latin America in this part of the site, please
Omar
I know you miss Salsassin but this is just a strawman reply to an unrelated question. I mean are you going to blame one Diop for any problems of race/class strife in Brazil?
If your looking for the start of 'rantings' in this thread lets go back to the second post in this thread.
Omar wrote: "I agree on that. Afrocentrism will spark a strong reaction if it ever succeed in creating a political force in Latin America. Blacks are minorities everywhere (except in the Caribbean) so what will happen is not clear. Afrocentrism goes against the principle of equality of people because gives a prefference to a group in particular. And that will be hardly tolerated in here".
What might help keep the focus on Latin America is some articles from Brazil about known Afrocentrists (not African-Americans seeking to impose the ODR) who have had this large unrequested impact on Brazilian racial harmony.
The essential question for me is WHY is any aspect of the ODR resonating with Brazilians? If there was no racism in Brazil people would likely laugh at the Kente cloth wearing bearers of a new racial paradigm. It's sticking for a reason that has nothing to do with the evil ole gringos brainwashing the happily mulatto natives. Afrocentrism is not the emperor's new clothes.
Brazilians and Americans inhabit a Eurocentric world, where European culture and appearance are glorified and held as the civilized standards. We understand what it means to not fit the standard. I don't have to be an Afrocentrist to see that education is Eurocentric. While I don't agree with implementing self-esteem programs based on untruths and bad scholarship, I do believe that European researchers and scholars have historically and systematically diminished the contributions of non-Whites to European culture and civilization itself, whether intentionally or out of blind ethnocentrism.
Secondly, it obvious to me that the whole discussion of whether Ray Nagin is or isn't Creole is American racialist thinking at it's finest. If Ray's last name was Martinez or Maloof it would have likely be silenced or would have never happened. When you claim or deny a person's cultural affiliation by their appearance, instead of what they SAY THEY ARE, you tip your handful of race cards, be they mulatto, Afrocentric or otherwise.
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... It is just human nature to stereotype I guess...
