Posted: Tue 16 Oct 2007 16:57 Post subject: Re: light skinned black/biracials historical figures
[quote="Powell"]
anonymouse wrote:
mymulatto wrote:
light skinned black/biracials historical figures ,why do they get dark skinned people to play light skined black/biracial historical figures ?
why can`t light skined black/biracials play other light skined black/biracials.
maybe because they look at the actor/actress abilities first before considering (if at all) a person's skin tone.
No. If a historical figure is claimed by blacks and has no history of "passing," that person is usually played by a black or dark mulatto so the audience will know that he/she is "supposed" to be. This totally distorts history. Examples:
Thurgood Marshall, Adam Clayton Powell identified as Negro so I guess they are a bit different.
I think there may be more that goes into it than that. I would also go by the availability of actors as well. Personally I think that person should look that part or at least look like the person enough that they can 'lighten or darken the actor/actress' like Halle Berry playing a quadroon in QUEEN. I think Denzel Washington favours Malcolm X but they could have given him hazel contact lenses and lightened the skin.
Which movie are your refering to with Sally? The one that I remember was played by Thandie Newton(biracial)-Jefferson in Paris.
In making these movies people don't have all the background info I think they should. I personally didn't know Sally was a lighter skinned mulatto, before I started doing research. I don't know...was she a quadroon?
I'm not familiar with the others
Henriette Delille
Sally Hemings
Thurgood Marshall
Roy Campanella
Adam Clayton Powell
Tai Babilonia
Daniel Hale Williams
Madison Hemings
There was also this one Sally Hemings:An American Scandal
Last edited by gemini072 on Tue 16 Oct 2007 17:53; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Tue 16 Oct 2007 17:07 Post subject: Re: light skinned black/biracials historical figures
gemini072 wrote:
I personally didn't know Sally was a lighter skinned mulatto. I don't know...was she a quadroon?
Sally Hemings had three grandparents who were totally Euro as far as anyone knows (they were of the British gentry). These were both of her paternal grandparents, and her maternal grandfather. Only her maternal grandmother had known African ancestry, but we do not know how much. Hence, at most Sally had 25 percent sub-Saharan admixture. Based on known people with that admixture, I would guess that she looked about like Gloria Estefan or Linda Ronstadt. Unfortunately, no portraits have survived, so it is just a guess. It is possible that she was lighter (like Channing or Locklear, say) or darker (like Rosie Perez) but such extremes are less likely. She probably had red hair (or at least Auburn) since MC1R314 is recessive and her son Eston was said to have been a red head. (Thomas Jefferson, of course, was a red head.)
Posted: Tue 16 Oct 2007 19:35 Post subject: Re: light skinned black/biracials historical figures
[quote="gemini072"]
Powell wrote:
anonymouse wrote:
mymulatto wrote:
light skinned black/biracials historical figures ,why do they get dark skinned people to play light skined black/biracial historical figures ?
why can`t light skined black/biracials play other light skined black/biracials.
maybe because they look at the actor/actress abilities first before considering (if at all) a person's skin tone.
No. If a historical figure is claimed by blacks and has no history of "passing," that person is usually played by a black or dark mulatto so the audience will know that he/she is "supposed" to be. This totally distorts history. Examples:
[color=green]Thurgood Marshall, Adam Clayton Powell identified as Negro so I guess they are a bit different.
I think there may be more that goes into it than that. I would also go by the availability of actors as well. Personally I think that person should look that part or at least look like the person enough that they can 'lighten or darken the actor/actress' like Halle Berry playing a quadroon in QUEEN. I think Denzel Washington favours Malcolm X but they could have given him hazel contact lenses and lightened the skin.
I'm confused on how history is distorted if a black actor (of any shade) depicts a black/coloured/afro/negro historical figure.
Posted: Wed 17 Oct 2007 00:45 Post subject: Re: light skinned black/biracials historical figures
anonymouse wrote:
I'm confused on how history is distorted if a black actor (of any shade) depicts a black/coloured/afro/negro historical figure.
It goes to the issue of reasonable casting. If the character depicted has partial African ancestry but it is important to the plot that his appearance be utterly European (like the Coleman Silk character in The Human Stain or the Eston Hemings character in any of the TJ stories), then it is senseless to cast an African-looking actor in the role. It is the same reasoning that says not to cast Arnold Schwartzenegger in the role of a scrawny weak little man nor to cast Woody Allen in the role of Conan the Conqueror.
Posted: Wed 17 Oct 2007 01:19 Post subject: Re: light skinned black/biracials historical figures
fwsweet wrote:
anonymouse wrote:
I'm confused on how history is distorted if a black actor (of any shade) depicts a black/coloured/afro/negro historical figure.
It goes to the issue of reasonable casting. If the character depicted has partial African ancestry but it is important to the plot that his appearance be utterly European (like the Coleman Silk character in The Human Stain or the Eston Hemings character in any of the TJ stories), then it is senseless to cast an African-looking actor in the role. It is the same reasoning that says not to cast Arnold Schwartzenegger in the role of a scrawny weak little man nor to cast Woody Allen in the role of Conan the Conqueror.
That reminds me of "cowboy & indian" movies that had no "indians" on the set, just anglos in makeup talking-um like-um they are-um big war chief. Come smoke-um peace pipe.
Um.
Nowadays that rarely happens. Actors are cast with various weighted criteria. If a better actor/actress was available for a project but their ethnic makeup did not exactly mirror the historical figure so be it. So using one of the examples above it would be counterproductive for a studio to cast a net for a quadroon (do people even identify as such these days?) who looked like what they THINK Sally Hemmings looked like and then hope she could act. Instead they cast Halle Berry, a hollywood superstar.
Additionally actors from all ethnicities and racial backgrounds have played Shakespearean characters such as henry VIII in film and on stage. Should they all have been banned from playing those characters because they would somehow distort history?
Posted: Wed 17 Oct 2007 01:42 Post subject: Re: light skinned black/biracials historical figures
anonymouse wrote:
actors from all ethnicities and racial backgrounds have played Shakespearean characters such as henry VIII in film and on stage. Should they all have been banned from playing those characters because they would somehow distort history?
What I said was, "if the character's appearance is important to the plot." Hence, Hamlet, Juliet, or Macbeth can be played by anyone, but it would be sensless to cast an African-looking actress as Desdemona unless you made her up to look White.
Posted: Wed 17 Oct 2007 02:38 Post subject: Re: light skinned black/biracials historical figures
fwsweet wrote:
anonymouse wrote:
actors from all ethnicities and racial backgrounds have played Shakespearean characters such as henry VIII in film and on stage. Should they all have been banned from playing those characters because they would somehow distort history?
What I said was, "if the character's appearance is important to the plot." Hence, Hamlet, Juliet, or Macbeth can be played by anyone, but it would be sensless to cast an African-looking actress as Desdemona unless you made her up to look White.
Oh I agree with you but it seems we somehow veered off from the original question which was:
mymulatto wrote:
light skinned black/biracials historical figures ,why do they get dark skinned people to play light skined black/biracial historical figures ?
why can`t light skined black/biracials play other light skined black/biracials.
I was just trying to understand why the question was even posed. Powell then posted:
Powell wrote:
No. If a historical figure is claimed by blacks and has no history of "passing," that person is usually played by a black or dark mulatto so the audience will know that he/she is "supposed" to be. This totally distorts history. Examples:
Henriette Delille
Sally Hemings
Thurgood Marshall
Roy Campanella
Adam Clayton Powell
Tai Babilonia
Daniel Hale Williams
Madison Hemings
Now I don't think I have ever seen someone the colour of Djimon Hounsou play Adam Clayton Powell or Thurgood Marshall. The only person on the list that I was familiar with that a movie had been made was Sally Hemmings (Queen) in which starred Halle Berry. So my question still stands: In which of these examples (or any) has the casting of a black or a dark mulatto "totally distorted history"?
this question really was not directed towards you fwsweet but to mymulatto & Powell.
The mismatch goes both ways as well. Will Smith played a man much much darker than he is in The Pursuit of Happyness. Jeffery Wright played MLK and he is lighter than MLK actually was. Halle Berry played Dorothy Dandrige (instead of Janet Jackson, who actually looks more like her in features and skin tone). It's not just about phenotype, but the talent and drive of the actor to play the part (or produce the movie).
Interestingly enough, actors with visible African ancestry still have to fight for roles that are not race-specific. Halle Berry's character in her new movie Things We Lost In the Fire was not written as a "woman of color," She was on Oprah last week and shared that the producers/director didn't want her initially because of the "problem" of the children (since a White actor played her husband the kids would presumably be biracial by self-identification standards). They ended up finding children who look like they could be her children with the husband in the movie.
This incident illustrates for me that phenotype may be a secondary concern for Black actors and others with SSA ancestry. It's hard for these actors to get work PERIOD so why get hung up on color if you get to work? I know my uncle probably wouldn't bat an eyelash at playing a darkskinned historical figure (he's an actor).
The "conspiracy," if any, seems to be about preserving movies and TV shows uncomplicated by "race." Casting Whites only (and Hispanics with minimal SSA ancestry or appearance for whatever reason) seems to enable them to keep "race" out of it and focus on "the story." At least that is what these folks seem to believe...that Blacks and others are "complications" that distract viewers from the story, or change it altogether just by participating. The mere inclusion of a person with visible SSA (lol who is not Hispanic) seems to be an issue even for the biggest Hollywood stars who happen to be Black.
Posted: Wed 17 Oct 2007 14:06 Post subject: Re: light skinned black/biracials historical figures
anonymouse wrote:
fwsweet wrote:
anonymouse wrote:
actors from all ethnicities and racial backgrounds have played Shakespearean characters such as henry VIII in film and on stage. Should they all have been banned from playing those characters because they would somehow distort history?
What I said was, "if the character's appearance is important to the plot." Hence, Hamlet, Juliet, or Macbeth can be played by anyone, but it would be sensless to cast an African-looking actress as Desdemona unless you made her up to look White.
Oh I agree with you but it seems we somehow veered off from the original question which was:
mymulatto wrote:
light skinned black/biracials historical figures ,why do they get dark skinned people to play light skined black/biracial historical figures ?
why can`t light skined black/biracials play other light skined black/biracials.
I was just trying to understand why the question was even posed. Powell then posted:
Powell wrote:
No. If a historical figure is claimed by blacks and has no history of "passing," that person is usually played by a black or dark mulatto so the audience will know that he/she is "supposed" to be. This totally distorts history. Examples:
Henriette Delille
Sally Hemings
Thurgood Marshall
Roy Campanella
Adam Clayton Powell
Tai Babilonia
Daniel Hale Williams
Madison Hemings
Now I don't think I have ever seen someone the colour of Djimon Hounsou play Adam Clayton Powell or Thurgood Marshall. The only person on the list that I was familiar with that a movie had been made was Sally Hemmings (Queen) in which starred Halle Berry. So my question still stands: In which of these examples (or any) has the casting of a black or a dark mulatto "totally distorted history"?
this question really was not directed towards you fwsweet but to mymulatto & Powell.
Separate But Equal (1991) (TV) .... Thurgood Marshall (Played by Sidney Poitier
Posted: Wed 17 Oct 2007 14:26 Post subject: Re: light skinned black/biracials historical figures
[quote="gemini072"]
Powell wrote:
anonymouse wrote:
mymulatto wrote:
light skinned black/biracials historical figures ,why do they get dark skinned people to play light skined black/biracial historical figures ?
why can`t light skined black/biracials play other light skined black/biracials.
maybe because they look at the actor/actress abilities first before considering (if at all) a person's skin tone.
No. If a historical figure is claimed by blacks and has no history of "passing," that person is usually played by a black or dark mulatto so the audience will know that he/she is "supposed" to be. This totally distorts history. Examples:
Thurgood Marshall, Adam Clayton Powell identified as Negro so I guess they are a bit different.
I think there may be more that goes into it than that. I would also go by the availability of actors as well. Personally I think that person should look that part or at least look like the person enough that they can 'lighten or darken the actor/actress' like Halle Berry playing a quadroon in QUEEN. I think Denzel Washington favours Malcolm X but they could have given him hazel contact lenses and lightened the skin.
Which movie are your refering to with Sally? The one that I remember was played by Thandie Newton(biracial)-Jefferson in Paris.
In making these movies people don't have all the background info I think they should. I personally didn't know Sally was a lighter skinned mulatto, before I started doing research. I don't know...was she a quadroon?
I'm not familiar with the others
Henriette Delille
Sally Hemings
Thurgood Marshall
Roy Campanella
Adam Clayton Powell
Tai Babilonia
Daniel Hale Williams
Madison Hemings
There was also this one Sally Hemings:An American Scandal
I made a mistake on Adam Clayton Powell I got the movie mixed up with Thurgood Marshall
The film by Adam Clayton Powell was more recent. They used two 'mixed' people to play the part of Adam & Hazel(wife) but I don't think he looks close to the part.
Powell was the subject of the 2002 cable television film Keep the Faith, Baby, starring Harry Lennix as Powell and Vanessa L. Williams as his second wife, jazz pianist, Hazel Scott. The film debuted on February 17, 2002 on premium cable network Showtime and was a production of Showtime and Paramount Network Television. It garnered three NAACP Image Award nominations for Outstanding Television Movie, Outstanding Television Actor in a TV Movie (Lennix) and Outstanding Television Actress in a TV Movie (Williams). It won two NAMIC Vision Awards (cable executives) for Best Drama and Best Actor (Lennix). Williams also earned a Best Actress in a TV Movie Golden Satellite Award from the International Press Association. The film was the brainchild of the Hon. Adam Clayton Powell, IV and his campaign manager Geoffrey L. Garfield, who lead the team as Producer. Powell, IV and his half brother Adam, III, were credited as Co-Producers of the biopic.[5]
The mismatch goes both ways as well. Will Smith played a man much much darker than he is in The Pursuit of Happyness. Jeffery Wright played MLK and he is lighter than MLK actually was. Halle Berry played Dorothy Dandrige (instead of Janet Jackson, who actually looks more like her in features and skin tone). It's not just about phenotype, but the talent and drive of the actor to play the part (or produce the movie).
Interestingly enough, actors with visible African ancestry still have to fight for roles that are not race-specific. Halle Berry's character in her new movie Things We Lost In the Fire was not written as a "woman of color," She was on Oprah last week and shared that the producers/director didn't want her initially because of the "problem" of the children (since a White actor played her husband the kids would presumably be biracial by self-identification standards). They ended up finding children who look like they could be her children with the husband in the movie.
This incident illustrates for me that phenotype may be a secondary concern for Black actors and others with SSA ancestry. It's hard for these actors to get work PERIOD so why get hung up on color if you get to work? I know my uncle probably wouldn't bat an eyelash at playing a darkskinned historical figure (he's an actor).
The "conspiracy," if any, seems to be about preserving movies and TV shows uncomplicated by "race." Casting Whites only (and Hispanics with minimal SSA ancestry or appearance for whatever reason) seems to enable them to keep "race" out of it and focus on "the story." At least that is what these folks seem to believe...that Blacks and others are "complications" that distract viewers from the story, or change it altogether just by participating. The mere inclusion of a person with visible SSA (lol who is not Hispanic) seems to be an issue even for the biggest Hollywood stars who happen to be Black.
Imitations of Life was one of those complications. For the remake it was rumored they had to get a 'white' woman to play the part of the daughter who passed because it disturbed a lot of people seeing an actress (Fredi Washington) who looks like them but has Negro ancestry, what does that say about them.
Imitation of Life was produced immediately following the trial of Lana Turner's daughter Cheryl Crane on charges of murder for having killed Turner's lover, a gangster named Johnny Stompanato. The case was ruled as a "justifiable homicide". In a vivid illustration of the Oscar Wilde saying that life imitates art, a central subplot of Imitation of Life involves a mother and daughter's issues involving the mother's boyfriend.
The plot of the 1959 version of Imitation of Life was significantly altered from the the original book and the 1934 film version. In the original story, the "Lora" character, Bea Pullman, became famous with the help of her maid Annie's family waffle recipe (the 1934 film version features a family pancake recipe instead of a waffle recipe). As a result, Bea, the white businesswoman, becomes rich, and Annie, her subservient black maid, turns down any and all offers to share any profits. Director Douglas Sirk and screenwriters Eleanore Griffin and Allan Scott felt that such a story would not be accepted in the wake of civil rights milestones such as the Brown v. Board of Education case and the Montgomery Bus Boycott, and also felt that, by the 1950s, a black woman with a potentially successful food enterprise could make it on her own. As a result, the story was altered so that the Lora becomes a Broadway star with her own talents, with Annie assisting her by serving as a nanny for Lora's child.
Fredi Washington, the actress who plays the African-American daughter Peola in the 1934 film, was an actual light-skinned African American, who was noted for turning down a number of offers by Hollywood agents to pass for white and become a star. Although many African Americans were screen-tested for the corresponding Sarah Jane role in the 1959 remake, Susan Kohner, of Mexican and Czech Jewish descent, won the role. Gospel singing star Mahalia Jackson sings "Trouble of the World" during the final scenes of the film, and receives star billing for doing so (she appears in no other parts in the film).
I'd rather a film had an actor/actress that possessed talent than someone whose ethnic makeup more closely resembled the historical figure yet could not act a lick.
I made a mistake on Adam Clayton Powell I got the movie mixed up with Thurgood Marshall
The film by Adam Clayton Powell was more recent. They used two 'mixed' people to play the part of Adam & Hazel(wife) but I don't think he looks close to the part.
Powell was the subject of the 2002 cable television film Keep the Faith, Baby, starring Harry Lennix as Powell and Vanessa L. Williams as his second wife, jazz pianist, Hazel Scott. The film debuted on February 17, 2002 on premium cable network Showtime and was a production of Showtime and Paramount Network Television. It garnered three NAACP Image Award nominations for Outstanding Television Movie, Outstanding Television Actor in a TV Movie (Lennix) and Outstanding Television Actress in a TV Movie (Williams). It won two NAMIC Vision Awards (cable executives) for Best Drama and Best Actor (Lennix). Williams also earned a Best Actress in a TV Movie Golden Satellite Award from the International Press Association. The film was the brainchild of the Hon. Adam Clayton Powell, IV and his campaign manager Geoffrey L. Garfield, who lead the team as Producer. Powell, IV and his half brother Adam, III, were credited as Co-Producers of the biopic.[5]
What I find interesting in the example above of the Adam Clayton Powell movie above is that once again, Hollywood cast a more SSA-looking male with a light-skinned, very Euro-looking female (Vanessa Williams), going with the usual movie stereotype, whereas in real life, the very Euro-looking Powell married a darker, more Afro-looking woman. (She is stunning to boot!)
Jessie Jackson
[img]http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=1774&rendTypeId=4[/img]
and Langston Hughes
are/were also of Native American descent.
Part Cherokee African-Americans/African descendants:
This man is part Choctaw and Cherokee (go to his profile)
Actress Lynne Whitfield is part Cherokee
Actress Shar Jackson is part Cherokee
Al Sharpton is part Cherokee
Model, actress and writer Jameka Shamae is part Cherokee
Katrina Messenger is part Cherokee
Mary Buford Howard is part Cherokee
This woman is part Cherokee (go to her profile)
Toni Maria Pinheiro is part Cherokee
Actress Kym E. Whitley is part Cherokee
Rosa Parks was part Cherokee-Creek
Singer Keke Wyatt is part Cherokee
Natina Reed of Blaque is part Cherokee
Singer Actress Beyonce Knowles is part Cherokee
Actress Jada Pinkett-Smith is part Cherokee
Actress Vanessa L. Williams is part Cherokee
Musician Jimi Hendrix was half Cherokee
Actress Halle Berry's mother is part Cherokee
Actress Nicole Ari Parker is part Cherokee
Della Reese is half Cherokee
Singer/Actress Janet Jackson and her siblings are part Cherokee
Singer/Actress Earthat Kitt was born to a Black Indian mother of Cherokee extraction
Singer Tina Turner is part Navajo and Cherokee
Comedian Sinbad is part Cherokee
Singer/Actress Lena Horne is part Cherokee
Singer Michel'le Toussaint is part Cherokee
Ciara Harris is part Cherokee
Monique Coleman is part Cherokee
Diana Ross is part Cherokee, as is Tracee, Evan, Chudney Ross
Part Blackfoot African-Americans/African descendants:
Author Velina Hasu Houston is part Blackfoot-Pikuni
Rapper Sole is part Blackfoot
TV Host Ananda Lewis is part Blackfoot
Part Taino/Arwak (and the triracial isolate of Puerto Rico):
Eva Pigford is part Puerto Rican
Adrienne Bailon of The Cheeta Girls is part Puerto Rican
Ashanti is part Puerto Rican
Christina Milian is part Puerto Rican
Rosie Perez is Puerto Rican
Meagan Good is part Puerto Rican
Reagan Gomez-Preston is part Puerto Rican
Jennifer Lopez is Puerto Rican
African-Americans/African descendants of other Amerindian bloodlines:
Actress Cree Summer is part Cree
Pearl Bailey was part Cocktaw
Megalyn Echikunwoke, born to a Nigerian father, but was raised by her mother of Navajo descent on a Navajo reservation in Arizona
Janice-Marie Johnson founding member of the 70's and 80's group "A Taste of Honey" is of Stockbridge-Munsee (Mohican) ancestry and tribal roots in Wisconsin.
Other African-Americans/African descendants mixed with varying degrees and combinations of Amerindian bloodlines:
Justine Simmons
This woman is part Native American (go to her profile)
This woman is part Native American (go to her profile)
This woman is Afro Panamanian (go to her profile)
Shari "Truth Hurts" Watson
L.L Cool J
Betty Wright
Angie Stone
Maya Angelou
Aretha Franklin
Raven Symone
Telma Hopkins
Tocarra Jones
SWV
Vanessa A. Williams
Maia Campbell
Kenya Moore
Aaliyah Houghton
Rosario Dawson
Gina Torres
Debbie Morgan
Lisa Nicole Carson
Kerry Washington
Mo'Nique Jackson
Jill Scott
James Brown
Vivian Green
Yolanda Jackson
Kim Fields
Tyler Perry
Courtney "Goldie" Jackson
Kim Coles
CeeCee Micaela
Rupaul
Coretta Scott King
Sandra "Pepa" Denton
Mahalia Jackson
Cherelle
Perri Pebbles Reed
Nicole Murphy
T-Boz, Tionne Watkins, of TLC has a Amerindian grandmother
Kimora Lee Simmons is part Native American in addition to her Korean/Japanese and African-American ancestry
Jennifer Hudson
Chris Tucker of the Rush Hour movies (above left) The comic's admixture test that he took for a show entitled African-American Lives came back 83% sub-Saharan African, 10% Native American, and 7% European.
Oprah (above right) took a dna test for the same show and found out she is 89% african(congoid), 8% red indian, and 3% asian.
Common African-American phenotypes from left to right are Gregory Hines, Eddie Griffin, Sammy Davis Jr., Chris Carter, Spike Lee and James Baldwin
The African-American guy on the left, below looks like a darker-skinned Gregory Hines
I've always thought that comedian Wanda SykesWilliams (below) looked like an American indian. What do you guys think?
Above, 2 pics of Scottie Pippen (left and center) and Omarion Grandberry (right)
Above, Usher Raymond (left), Little Richard (center), George Washington Carver (right)
The way it's looking, everyone is at least biracial, from Rosa Parks who was Scots-Irish and Cherokee-Creek, Malcom X who was quadroon, to Al Sharton, a triracial and Barack Obama a biracial.
Posted: Sun 21 Oct 2007 01:01 Post subject: racial terms
Andrew Waters wrote:
I would've thought Malcolm X, if quadroon, would show some appearance as one?
No. Malcolm X would be what Creoles used to call a "griffe" - 3/4 black and 1/4 white. His father was a Georgia black and his mother a light mulatto from Grenada. They met in Montreal of all places.
Joined: 07 Oct 2007 {Posts: 203 } Location: United States
Posted: Sun 21 Oct 2007 02:51 Post subject:
I wonder how many of those actors and actresses have significant native ancestry (over the average, which is like 6%). I wonder how many of those people have cultural ties with their native american ancestors. They pretty much named all of AA hollywood.
All I can say is that, once again, it is clear that "Black" does not equate with having monoracial ancestry. I'm sure that somewhere down the line we'll get a comment along the lines of "X actor doesn't look like s/he has non-SSA ancestry." I think that perception is due to the ODR not any accuracy about eyeballing or categorizing true ancestry.
Malcolm X is a griffe? Perhaps ancestrally based on self-identification but not appearance-wise or probably even admixture-wise. I wouldn't make the assumption that his father was 100% of SSA ancestry based on his appearance. Then again, I don't know what his siblings looked like.
'
FAQ
Search
Register
Log in
It's quite possible she has some on both sides!
