Posted: Tue 27 Mar 2007 12:35 Post subject: Indian, Twice Removed
Quote:
Indian, Twice Removed
By JOSEPH BERGER
Published: December 17, 2004
New York Times
Shristi Singh, 12, at the Maha Lakshmi Mandir
temple in Richmond Hill, Queens,
where many Guyanese-Americans worship.
Even if the welcome mat has not always been rolled out, immigrants have usually found their first foothold in the neighborhoods of their more established ethnic soul mates.
Irish-brogue newcomers moved into already cloverleafed enclaves of the northwest Bronx, off-the-boat Italians went into a Bensonhurst of homes adorned with front-yard Madonnas, and Soviet Jewish refugees found shelter among the knish parlors of Brighton Beach.
But such an easy osmosis does not always happen. One group of newcomers that has ended up living quite apart from its more established forerunners are the Indians who came to the United States not directly from India but from Guyana, on the northern coast of South America, and other parts of the Caribbean.
These Indo-Caribbeans have not felt particularly embraced by the more flourishing Indian communities of Flushing and Elmhurst in Queens, nor have they made many overtures to the Indians. Instead they have cobbled together their own fragrant neighborhood of roti, saris and gold jewelry shops among the row houses of Richmond Hill, Queens.
"From my experience, we're not Indian," said Latchman Budhai, 56, the former president of the Maha Lakshmi Mandir, a Hindu temple in Richmond Hill whose members are almost all Guyanese-Americans. "We look like Indian, but we're not Indian."
The comparative chasm between two kindred communities tells volumes about the complex history of Diaspora Indians. It also tells a lot about the general tango of sensitivities between longer-rooted immigrants and their raw cousins.
Historians, for example, have noted how, during the late 19th century, some German Jews, a comfortable generation removed from Europe, kept less-polished Jewish arrivals from Eastern Europe at a condescending arm's length, although many created the institutions that helped the newcomers assimilate.
Similarly, Cubans who fled the island in 1959 when Fidel Castro took power were sometimes less than welcoming to the refugees of the 1980 Mariel boatlift.
"Certainly the major impulse is to help the less fortunate parts of the community," said John H. Mollenkopf, director of the Center for Urban Research at the City University of New York. "But, at the same time, people giving help are the more assimilated, whereas people who need help are at the bottom and don't have the prestige and status. There's more of a tendency of the more established people wanting to distinguish themselves from the newcomers."
Some Guyanese talk with hurt about not quite being accepted as Indian. Mr. Budhai recalled how in 1978, his wife, Serojini, won an Indian beauty pageant but was never awarded the top prize, a trip to India, after the organizers learned she was Guyanese.
Still, some Indians think the chill is exaggerated. Uma Sengupta, a native Indian who is a Democratic leader in the 25th Assembly district, said the distance simply represents an encounter of two very different cultures. "Even if they don't mix, that doesn't mean they look down," she said.
Most Guyanese, and the smaller number of Trinidadians in Richmond Hill, are descendants of Indians who were brought over to the Caribbean starting in 1838 as contract laborers on sugar plantations after slavery was outlawed in the region's British colonies. The influx of indentured laborers continued into the first decades of the 20th century, and Indians eventually formed a majority of the population in Guyana, the former British Guiana, and they became 40 percent of the population of what is now the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago.
In the political or economic upheavals of the 1970's and 1980's, Indo-Caribbeans began leaving for the United States, where Indian professionals from Asia had already settled more than a decade before.
"While these two groups share a common ancestry, their historical experiences and the timing and nature of their immigration set them apart," said Madhulika S. Khandelwal, an Indian immigrant who directs the Asian American Center at Queens College.
For Guyanese, even those who grew up with Indian grandparents who had been indentured servants, the passage of time has worn away much of their Indian cultural character. For many, it has erased their fluency with Hindi or other South Asian languages and given their English a singsong lilt and Creole dialect. Guyanese curries are less spicy, and a shop that serves the flat roti bread with various stews is a distinctly Caribbean conception.
Guyanese music, while Indian influenced, is marked by a faster West Indian style that has come to be known as chutney soca. Tofayel Chowdhury, owner of the Fabric Depot and one of only a handful of shopkeepers who came from India on Liberty Avenue, the Richmond Hill shopping thoroughfare, noted that few Guyanese women wear saris every day as many Indian women do.
Both those with Guyanese and Indian heritage are steeped in British and Hindu culture. But they pray in separate temples and play for different cricket teams. While Guyanese parents limit their children's dating choices to serious suitors, they do not insist on choosing spouses, something many Indian parents still do. Even Guyanese names are distinguishing, with common Indian first names serving as their last names because of how British planters addressed them.
The 2000 census identified 24,662 people in Richmond Hill who were born in Guyana and 7,384 born in Trinidad, and in this neighborhood the overwhelming proportions of both groups are of Indian descent. (The Census counted 130,496 Guyanese-born residents in all of New York City, but 43 percent were black, a majority of whom have chosen to live in Brooklyn's West Indian neighborhoods.) These figures do not count the large numbers of children of Guyanese and Trinidadian immigrants born here.
Racial data is particularly fluid, according to a study of Guyanese teenagers by Natasha Warikoo, a Harvard doctoral student in sociology, because Guyanese find it confusing to identify themselves as Asian but are not white, black, or Hispanic either.
In Richmond Hill, Liberty Avenue's video stores are stocked mostly with romantic musicals from India's Bollywood industry, and Ms. Warikoo said that teenage Guyanese girls particularly look "to an Indian culture based in India rather than the Caribbean for 'authentic' Indian-ness." But the coolness between Indians and Guyanese is apparent.
"They believe our grandparents quit India, so we are like strangers to them," said Outar Pooran, 68 a Guyanese who is retired from a porter's job at the Giorgio Armani store in Midtown and is a leader at Mr. Budhai's temple.
Mr. Pooran knows Indians, he said, who always speak to him with the expression, "You Guyanese people."
"When I speak I say, 'We Indians,' " he said.
One thing Guyanese do not speak much about - it is humiliating - is what some detect as lingering elitism. In Guyana the elaborate Indian caste system has withered to virtual insignificance, while it has survived in India. The Indians who signed up as contract laborers emerged largely from India's working castes while those who came to New York from India in the 1960's were highly educated professionals largely from higher castes.
Ms. Warikoo cautioned that the fact that Guyanese have set up a separate neighborhood should not be overinterpreted. India, she said, is so fragmented linguistically, religiously and geographically that many subcultures here have carved out their own enclaves.
Indians from Gujarat, for example, have clustered in Forest Hills. In the past decade or so, almost 5,000 Sikhs - native Indians with a distinctive religion who are recognizable to most New Yorkers by the turbans the men wear - have settled in Richmond Hill to be near their main gurdwara, or temple. Still, the two communities live quite separately, people from both groups acknowledge.
Kris Oditt, the Guyanese owner of Brown Betty Restaurant, which serves such distinctive Guyanese desserts as pineapple tarts and Chinese cakes, says Guyanese have much warmer relations with other Diaspora Indians. Guyanese and Trinidadian leaders work together in an organization known as the Indo-Caribbean Federation. Mr. Budhai's son is engaged to a girl from Trinidad. Marriages with Indian immigrants from India, though not unheard of, are far less common.
Scholars and people in Richmond Hill predict that attitudes will eventually change. Bobbie Ramnath, a Liberty Avenue travel agent, notices that some Guyanese are arranging trips to India to search for their roots. When a Sikh spiritual leader was pummeled into unconsciousness in July by a group of people who ridiculed his turban, Guyanese joined in the protests.
More Guyanese and Indian students are crossing ethnic boundaries. Priya Mahabir, a 29-year-old Guyanese senior at Baruch College, said some Indian friends have told her she's "not really Indian, and I would be really offended by that," but she has also formed close friendships with Indians.
When she walks into a classroom, the first people she notices are those of Indian descent, whether from India or Guyana.
"We call it the Indian Connection," she said. "I glance over at them and they glance over at me, and we exchange a smile."
Joined: 10 Mar 2006 {Posts: 235 } Location: Atlanta
Posted: Sun 20 May 2007 02:27 Post subject:
TheMulattoKid wrote:
Yes he is. I am surprised it is not that common in Barbados.
There was very little immigration of East Indian intendured field labourers to Barbados after slavery, unlike Guyana, Surinam, Trinidad, Martinique, and even Jamaica. That's why. Most of the East Indians in Barbados, if I'm not mistaken, are Gujarati merchants.
Joined: 10 Mar 2006 {Posts: 235 } Location: Atlanta
Posted: Fri 25 May 2007 23:44 Post subject:
TheMulattoKid wrote:
Ah interesting. I allways wanted to know what Indian country I was probably descended from.
Probably from somewhere in India, Pakistan, or Bangladesh. Indentured labourers were recruited from the rural areas near Karachi, Kolkata, and Mumbai. Some certainly came from further (Nepal, for example).
Ah interesting. I allways wanted to know what Indian country I was probably descended from.
Probably from somewhere in India, Pakistan, or Bangladesh. Indentured labourers were recruited from the rural areas near Karachi, Kolkata, and Mumbai. Some certainly came from further (Nepal, for example).
Most Indians recruited to Guyana, Trinidad and Suriname came from Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, West Bengal with smaller numbers of Madrassis. Only tiny numbers came from north west India and Pakistan.
Funny thing: many Indo-guyanese and some Indo-Trinis grew up disliking black people because that what was taught in the home. Then they come to the states and discover that India born Indians regard them not as Indian but as blacks. Additionally they discover they actually do have more in common ith their fellow black guyanese or trinis. Can be an eye opening experience.
I have a Guyanese friend whose older brother was one of those types. I was going out with this Singaporean woman (who was indian/malay mixed) and he would always greet her and then turn his head when he saw me. My friend went as far as to apologise for his brother's behaviour.
Fast forward about 2 years. I ran into the guy at a West Indian club where he was there with some coworkers. He admitted to me that he worked with a guy from back home for 6 years and never said a word to him because the guy was black. He woke up one day and realised how stupid he had been. And he apologised to me for every slight he ever gave me. Then he hugged me. I was like, "yeah dude - it's ok. You can let go now..."
Funny thing: many Indo-guyanese and some Indo-Trinis grew up disliking black people because that what was taught in the home. Then they come to the states and discover that India born Indians regard them not as Indian but as blacks.
In general, people from India and Pakistan don’t see Indo-Caribbean people as black. They often don’t accept them as kindred for a variety of reasons, including the belief they may have some African ancestry. In my experience, however, Indo-Caribbeans’ lack of adherence to the caste system, less-than-rigid observance of religious codes (whether Hindu or Muslim), embrace of Christianity, and cultural creolization play more of a role in South Asians’ lack of acceptance of them. I mean how should a devout Indian or Pakistani Muslim respond to an Indo-Caribbean Muslim who drinks rum on a regular basis and listens to soca music, reggae and chutney? Or a Brahmin Hindu from the sub-continent to an Indian Hindu from Trinidad who doesn’t know or care what caste to which he’s supposed to belong?
Quote:
Additionally they discover they actually do have more in common ith their fellow black guyanese or trinis. Can be an eye opening experience.
That’s true enough and cuts both ways. Afro-Caribbeans aren’t all paragons of racial virtue themselves and they have their own issues with Indo-Caribbeans. I’d also argue Indian/Afo-Caribbean enmity isn’t as widespread as many think and varies from region to region. There has been some cultural cross polinization between the two groups in places like Trinidad and Jamaica, for example.
Funny thing: many Indo-guyanese and some Indo-Trinis grew up disliking black people because that what was taught in the home. Then they come to the states and discover that India born Indians regard them not as Indian but as blacks.
In general, people from India and Pakistan don’t see Indo-Caribbean people as black. They often don’t accept them as kindred for a variety of reasons, including the belief they may have some African ancestry. In my experience, however, Indo-Caribbeans’ lack of adherence to the caste system, less-than-rigid observance of religious codes (whether Hindu or Muslim), embrace of Christianity, and cultural creolization play more of a role in South Asians’ lack of acceptance of them. I mean how should a devout Indian or Pakistani Muslim respond to an Indo-Caribbean Muslim who drinks rum on a regular basis and listens to soca music, reggae and chutney? Or a Brahmin Hindu from the sub-continent to an Indian Hindu from Trinidad who doesn’t know or care what caste to which he’s supposed to belong?
Quote:
Additionally they discover they actually do have more in common ith their fellow black guyanese or trinis. Can be an eye opening experience.
That’s true enough and cuts both ways. Afro-Caribbeans aren’t all paragons of racial virtue themselves and they have their own issues with Indo-Caribbeans. I’d also argue Indian/Afo-Caribbean enmity isn’t as widespread as many think and varies from region to region. There has been some cultural cross polinization between the two groups in places like Trinidad and Jamaica, for example.
Most definitely. I don't know how much soca you follow but a couple years back Brother Marvin said in the song Jahaji Bai to look back in your family tree and you will find a man in a dhoti. And if you are Trini of Guyanese that can be quite true. Most of the enmity between the two groups is leftover colonial attitudes that were encouraged by the British and perpetuated by politicians.
Most of the enmity between the two groups is leftover colonial attitudes that were encouraged by the British and perpetuated by politicians.
More likely perpetuated by politicians and reinforced by tribalism, which is common throughout mankind. Guyana, from what I understand is the worse of the two in terms of black/Indian conflict.
Ah interesting. I allways wanted to know what Indian country I was probably descended from.
Devil,
The Asian Indians in Barbados, if they were born there, were probably late arrivals. Asian Indians in Trinidad (~ 1840) were brought there against their will or cajoled, or they thought they were going to have a better life in a new place! It was not a tea party event, as it were.
If anything, they were rabble rousers, thiefs, and vagabonds escaping their situation. Based on the language spoken at the time, Bhojpuri, it was ascertained that they were North Indians but it seems that later arrivals were South Indian (madrasi) and from other palces in India.
Most of the enmity between the two groups is leftover colonial attitudes that were encouraged by the British and perpetuated by politicians.
More likely perpetuated by politicians and reinforced by tribalism, which is common throughout mankind. Guyana, from what I understand is the worse of the two in terms of black/Indian conflict.
When the British brought the Indians in they purposely let them keep their traditions and culture, something that they had stripped away from the Africans. That led them to believe that they were better than the blacks. So black people talked about
Typical British practise of divide and conquer/rule, which was replicated throughout the British Empire.
Fast forward to today and political leaders still play the race card in order advance their own agendas.
Most of the enmity between the two groups is leftover colonial attitudes that were encouraged by the British and perpetuated by politicians.
More likely perpetuated by politicians and reinforced by tribalism, which is common throughout mankind. Guyana, from what I understand is the worse of the two in terms of black/Indian conflict.
When the British brought the Indians in they purposely let them keep their traditions and culture, something that they had stripped away from the Africans. That led them to believe that they were better than the blacks. So black people talked about
Depends on where the Indians settled. And in many instances, there were attempts by the British dislodge Indians from at least their religious affiliations; some aspects of their culture were also banned or regulated. Many Hindu and Muslim marriages weren't legally recognized by the authorities. This prompted many Indians- in places like Jamaica -to accept Christianity.
Additionally, Jamaica, Martinique, and Granada had smaller Indian populations that eventually became more acculturated to Afro-Caribbean norms. In contrast, places with larger Indian populations (e.g. Trinidad, Guyana, Suriname), had Indian populations that lived in areas where they predominated. This made it easier for them to preserve many aspects of their culture and disregard others like the caste system.
As I stated earlier enmity cuts both ways and Indians' dislike of Afro-Caribbeans is matched by the latter’s' dislike of Indians. However, I'm not convinced that the Indians' dislike of and feelings of superiority relative to Afro-Caribbeans is based on the lack of African cultural retentions on the part of the Afro-Caribbeans. Indians in places like South Africa and Kenya harbor similar attitudes with respect to their African neighbors.
anonymouse wrote:
Typical British practise of divide and conquer/rule, which was replicated throughout the British Empire. Fast forward to today and political leaders still play the race card in order advance their own agendas.
Perhaps, but the two were already divided culturally. Indeed India itself was a society divided by caste, language, ethnicity and religion. Consequently, the British didn't have to work too hard to maintain divisions that already existed. Today politicians in Suriname, Trinidad, and especially Guyana don't have to work too hard either.
Most of the enmity between the two groups is leftover colonial attitudes that were encouraged by the British and perpetuated by politicians.
More likely perpetuated by politicians and reinforced by tribalism, which is common throughout mankind. Guyana, from what I understand is the worse of the two in terms of black/Indian conflict.
When the British brought the Indians in they purposely let them keep their traditions and culture, something that they had stripped away from the Africans. That led them to believe that they were better than the blacks. So black people talked about
Depends on where the Indians settled. And in many instances, there were attempts by the British dislodge Indians from at least their religious affiliations; some aspects of their culture were also banned or regulated. Many Hindu and Muslim marriages weren't legally recognized by the authorities. This prompted many Indians- in places like Jamaica -to accept Christianity.
Additionally, Jamaica, Martinique, and Granada had smaller Indian populations that eventually became more acculturated to Afro-Caribbean norms. In contrast, places with larger Indian populations (e.g. Trinidad, Guyana, Suriname), had Indian populations that lived in areas where they predominated. This made it easier for them to preserve many aspects of their culture and disregard others like the caste system.
As I stated earlier enmity cuts both ways and Indians' dislike of Afro-Caribbeans is matched by the latter’s' dislike of Indians. However, I'm not convinced that the Indians' dislike of and feelings of superiority relative to Afro-Caribbeans is based on the lack of African cultural retentions on the part of the Afro-Caribbeans. Indians in places like South Africa and Kenya harbor similar attitudes with respect to their African neighbors.
anonymouse wrote:
Typical British practise of divide and conquer/rule, which was replicated throughout the British Empire. Fast forward to today and political leaders still play the race card in order advance their own agendas.
Perhaps, but the two were already divided culturally. Indeed India itself was a society divided by caste, language, ethnicity and religion. Consequently, the British didn't have to work too hard to maintain divisions that already existed. Today politicians in Suriname, Trinidad, and especially Guyana don't have to work too hard either.
Divisions based on religion do not seem to exist but they still do in some places in Guyana but not as much in Trinidad (I believe). With all that Ever hear a hindu talk about "fullaman"?
While the caste system was largely eliminated, colorism is still alive and flourishing in the Indian community. But that is also so in the black community as well so afro & indo caribbeans are on equal footing. IMHO of course.
[ Today politicians in Suriname, Trinidad, and especially Guyana don't have to work too hard either.
The excuse about the politicians is a cop out. Guyanese, Trinidadians and maybe Surinamers (I know less about them) are intelligent people and I doubt 90% are so gullible as to be used as politicians. Real ethnic insecurity issues exist, especially in Guyana. There are real fears about what institutions controlled by one race will do to the other race and people can cite specific instances of abuse.
I very much doubt that the mediocre politicians of Trinidad and Guyana could have kept the population fooled for 50 years if these fears werent based on real or perceived insecurities. What I will say is that the politicians have done little to resolve the problem, and they certainly exploit it. But they didnt create it and cannot be blamed solely for keeping it alive.
Joined: 25 Oct 2007 {Posts: 25 } Location: Florida, US
Posted: Sat 27 Oct 2007 02:53 Post subject:
Interesting read, I had a Guyanese friend in high school and his family wasn't really "Indian." The only Indian thing about them were their surnames tbh. He was still a cool guy, but he sorta felt outta place whenever I took him to our gharbas, diwali celebrations, or parties.
Interesting read, I had a Guyanese friend in high school and his family wasn't really "Indian." The only Indian thing about them were their surnames tbh. He was still a cool guy, but he sorta felt outta place whenever I took him to our gharbas, diwali celebrations, or parties.
IndoCaribbeans are in the process of developing a new culture and identity. Much of it is based in India but clearly having had high exposures to western culture (colonial British and now American commercialism) and living alongside AfroCaribbeans, with their creole culture, this IndoCaribbean culture is increasingly hybrid. Its interesting the spirited debates that occur among IndoCaribbean people and between them and their AfroCaribbean colleagues as to how "Indian" they are.
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