Attack against black students raises questions on Brazil's racial equality self-image
The Associated PressPublished: March 29, 2007
BRASILIA, Brazil: Black university students were attacked in their dorms on the very day the Brazil's vice president denied racial problems exist in the country, feeding a debate about Brazil's treasured self-image as a land of racial equality.
Assailants placed flaming gasoline-soaked towels against the doors of three dormitory rooms occupied by west African students at the University of Brasilia on Wednesday. While none of the 10 students from Guinea-Bissau were hurt, police are investigating whether it was a hate crime.
The university's president condemned "all forms of aggression and discrimination," and Foreign Minister Celso Amorim spoke out as well on Thursday, saying "The incident fills us with shame. I hope that this kind of absurd incident never repeats itself."
Red crosses and the phrase: "Death to foreign students" were painted on the same three doors last month, said 26-year-old Samory de Souza, one of those targeted at the federally run university, where only 380 of 21,000 students are foreigners.
Brazil was already roiled by controversy over comments by the racial equality minister, Matilde Ribeiro, who said in a BBC interview, "It is not racism when a black person lashes out against a white person."
Racism, she said, is when a white elite with economic and political power "represses or vetoes the rights of others."
Vice President Jose Alencar responded Wednesday by declaring that "there is no racial problem in Brazil, which is a mixed-race nation."
He added that "there is, however, a need for the social inclusion of the underprivileged and of better income distribution."
Brazilians of African descent account for nearly half of the 187 million population in Brazil, which has more people of African heritage than any country outside of Nigeria.
But nearly 120 years after Latin America's largest country abolished slavery, Afro-Brazilians still suffer social and economic discrimination, according to a 2005 report by the U.N. Development Program. It said blacks earned an average of US$74 (€55.42) a month in 2000, less than half of what whites earned two decades earlier, and fewer black men had college diplomas in 2000 than white men had in 1960.
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 {Posts: 1301 } Location: Lookin DC Metro, Feelin Geneva
Posted: Sun 01 Apr 2007 13:57 Post subject:
Quote:
Brazil was already roiled by controversy over comments by the racial equality minister, Matilde Ribeiro, who said in a BBC interview, "It is not racism when a black person lashes out against a white person."
Racism, she said, is when a white elite with economic and political power "represses or vetoes the rights of others."
Vice President Jose Alencar responded Wednesday by declaring that "there is no racial problem in Brazil, which is a mixed-race nation."
He added that "there is, however, a need for the social inclusion of the underprivileged and of better income distribution."
Two folks in denial.
Ms Riberio thinks systemic racism is the only type of racism. Wrong. I would say it is the most powerful type of raciam at a macro-level, but it means little when a black person beats or shoots a white person to death for being white at the micro-level.
Mr. Alencar believes because the society is mixed that their is no racism against people who appear pure black or "more black" and not favortism toward people who appear "pure white". There is extreme colorism and also racism in Brazil.
I'd be curious to know how wide-spread this is. Brazil's universities have hosted African students from the Lusophone world before and there are some students from the West Indies who attend Brazilian universities. In fact, there are even Lusophone African immigrant communities in Brazil.
Based on a New York Times article back in the early 90s, Brazil at that time was supposed to be the number 1 destination for African American foreign exchange students.
Preemptive strike: I'm not denying there is racism or colorism (whichever you are partial to) in Brazil, just the frequency of this kind of mistreatment at universities out there.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Mon 02 Apr 2007 23:26 Post subject: Re: "Attack against black students raises questions...."
Patience wrote:
...Brazilians of African descent account for nearly half of the 187 million population in Brazil, which has more people of African heritage than any country outside of Nigeria...
It call my attention as always the statistics are forced. The 6% of Brazilian population is officially Black. Around the 45% percent is non-white, which does not mean, necesarily, it is Black. We have shown before that in that group there an almost even distribution of European-African and Amerindian contribution. But there is no way to convince these reporters those people are not pure Blacks
Now, there are more Blacks in Brasil than in Nigeria? Take a look at Nigerian Children
And now to poor Brazilians children
Do they look the same? At least I see the three founding races of Brazil on them, and not just the monopoly of one.
Those statistics could serve for anything we want.
Posted: Thu 05 Apr 2007 01:00 Post subject: Re: "Attack against black students raises questions...."
oevega wrote:
Patience wrote:
...Brazilians of African descent account for nearly half of the 187 million population in Brazil, which has more people of African heritage than any country outside of Nigeria...
It call my attention as always the statistics are forced. The 6% of Brazilian population is officially Black. Around the 45% percent is non-white, which does not mean, necesarily, it is Black. We have shown before that in that group there an almost even distribution of European-African and Amerindian contribution. But there is no way to convince these reporters those people are not pure Blacks
Now, there are more Blacks in Brasil than in Nigeria? Take a look at Nigerian Children
And now to poor Brazilians children
Do they look the same? At least I see the three founding races of Brazil on them, and not just the monopoly of one.
Those statistics could serve for anything we want.
Omar Vega
Omar based on your picture there arent too many "blacks" even in places like Trinidad. Most people in the Americas who are called black have some degree of nonSSAfrican ancestry. The question is which ancestry dominates and do the non African ancestries matter enough to be important.
Plus one doesnt have to be as "black" as a subSaharan to feel the sting of "blackness". There arent too many people who look like Will Smith in positions of power in Latin America. Quite clearly he has European and maybe Indigenous ancestry in addition to SSAfrican. Facts are that Brazil has more people with some VISIBLE SSAfrican ancestry than anywhere outside of Africa, but looking at the media or at its professional and management classes one wouldnt think so. Cuba also has many like this but they are deemed "not good enough" to work in their most lucrative tourism sector, even though in Cuba many are educated.
I'd be curious to know how wide-spread this is. Brazil's universities have hosted African students from the Lusophone world before and there are some students from the West Indies who attend Brazilian universities. In fact, there are even Lusophone African immigrant communities in Brazil.
.
And many of these have returned claiming that in some instances they were the only "blacks" at these universities, despite the huge numbers who they saw on the streets. But it goes to show that racial violence isnt just a USA thing.
By the way I think that the Minister is chatting nonsense. Hatred can be committed by any group and if its based on "race" then its racist. Blacks can also be racist. The issue is can people who lack power discriminate. I think thats what she meant to say.
I can find hundreds of pictures of no black people in America. There are almost 40 million blacks in America, but they are concentrated in certain areas...if I only show pictures from 3 or 4 states it is quite possible there will be no blacks in the pictures at all.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Thu 05 Apr 2007 03:59 Post subject: Re: "Attack against black students raises questions...."
caribj wrote:
...
Omar based on your picture there arent too many "blacks" even in places like Trinidad. Most people in the Americas who are called black have some degree of nonSSAfrican ancestry. The question is which ancestry dominates and do the non African ancestries matter enough to be important.
.
No. That's a strawman.
What I say is that there are not more Nigerians-looking people in Brazil that in Nigeria, because Brazilian people is genetically different from Nigeria. Brazil is tree-racial and the largest majority is White. Something that some reporters try to change and twist. Actually, Trinidad look closer to Nigeria than Brazil; a lot closer.
In Latin America, friend, a Black is a person that have Black skin. Not light brown skin or blue eyes. A Black is a pure Nigerian looking person living in the Americas. Otherwise we call them Mulattoes, not Blacks.
caribj wrote:
...
Plus one doesnt have to be as "black" as a subSaharan to feel the sting of "blackness". There arent too many people who look like Will Smith in positions of power in Latin America.
.
There are not many people like that in Latin America. If you look for "Blacks" in power, why don't you look in the family tree of Fidel Castro, Hugo Chavez or Lula?
caribj wrote:
...
Quite clearly he has European and maybe Indigenous ancestry in addition to SSAfrican.
.
Many Latin American have the Indigenous without the addition. The large majority I would say, according to the statistics. Appealing to the "Black" component of Latin Americans is doom to failure because most people don't identify with that origin, simply because there is not an ancestral link for them. Of course that's not the case in Cuba or DR.
caribj wrote:
...
Facts are that Brazil has more people with some VISIBLE SSAfrican ancestry than anywhere outside of Africa, but looking at the media or at its professional and management classes one wouldnt think so. Cuba also has many like this but they are deemed "not good enough" to work in their most lucrative tourism sector, even though in Cuba many are educated.
Nobody denies many people in Brazil and Cuba has VISIBLE SSAfrican ancestry. My only point is that the statistics claimed by American reporters are not precise at all. Saying that HALF Brazilian population is Black is not what you see in Brazil. In the rest I could agree. If you don't look like Nordic in Latin America is pretty difficult to get a job in publicity. Not even Spanish or Italian people could apply.
I'd be curious to know how wide-spread this is. Brazil's universities have hosted African students from the Lusophone world before and there are some students from the West Indies who attend Brazilian universities. In fact, there are even Lusophone African immigrant communities in Brazil.
.
And many of these have returned claiming that in some instances they were the only "blacks" at these universities, despite the huge numbers who they saw on the streets. But it goes to show that racial violence isnt just a USA thing.
By the way I think that the Minister is chatting nonsense. Hatred can be committed by any group and if its based on "race" then its racist. Blacks can also be racist. The issue is can people who lack power discriminate. I think thats what she meant to say.
The larger issue is how wide spread is this. One reported incident-tragic though it may be-does not equal an epidemic of racial violence at Brazilian universities.
Posted: Thu 05 Apr 2007 14:31 Post subject: Re: "Attack against black students raises questions...."
oevega wrote:
the statistics claimed by American reporters are not precise at all. Saying that HALF Brazilian population is Black is not what you see in Brazil.
I cannot agree more. I have chased down more such claims than I can count, some published in peer-reviewed journals. So far, they have all come down to the eyeball opinion of an American visitor who, with utter innocent childlike sincerity, believes that he/she can tell when a Latin American is "black" (whatever that means in this context) by looking at them.
Posted: Fri 06 Apr 2007 00:32 Post subject: Re: "Attack against black students raises questions...."
oevega wrote:
Nobody denies many people in Brazil and Cuba has VISIBLE SSAfrican ancestry. My only point is that the statistics claimed by American reporters are not precise at all. Saying that HALF Brazilian population is Black is not what you see in Brazil. In the rest I could agree. If you don't look like Nordic in Latin America is pretty difficult to get a job in publicity. Not even Spanish or Italian people could apply.
Pinguin
Omar clearly you dont know Trinidad or you wouldnt say they look clser to Nigeria. Trinidad is a multi ethnic nation of which Africans are 38% and many of them clearly have some minimal non SSAfrican ancestry. This is in addition to the mixed population of 20%, which usually, but not always, is a multi-ethnic mix consisting of African with two or three other ethnic groups. Then 40% are East Indians with a minority of Chinese, Syrians and "Trinidad Whites" (meaning that they arent 100% European ancestry).
Yet Trinidadians of African descent have no problem with being "black" and have fought for their rights as blacks, sometimes with, and at times in opposition to the Mixed population, and of course the struggles for dominance against the East Indians is well documented. Multi ethnicity is no excuse for tolerance of colorism. BTW more than a few Trinidad families do look like United Nations.
Omar I happen to agree with you that 50% of the population of Brazil arent African or even part African. What people have done is that they have added "black" to "pardo" and then said, voila these people are "black". Having said that a significant part of Brazilians do have visible SSAfrican ancestry as measured by appearance and this number is greater than 6%. I think they need a fourth category which separates people who are mixed but moreso Indigenous from people who are also mixed but moreso SSAfrican.
Its however without a doubt that those who have visible signs of SSAfrican ancestry do have a harder time in Brazil, no matter what they want to call themselves. So we have a "black" intellectual class in Brazil trying to fight colorism, and a strong possibility that the masses, even those who are part "black" denying that this is a problem. But yet the face of success in Brazil (as defined by who is middle class) remains largely white or very light.
Last edited by caribj on Fri 06 Apr 2007 00:51; edited 1 time in total
I'd be curious to know how wide-spread this is. Brazil's universities have hosted African students from the Lusophone world before and there are some students from the West Indies who attend Brazilian universities. In fact, there are even Lusophone African immigrant communities in Brazil.
.
And many of these have returned claiming that in some instances they were the only "blacks" at these universities, despite the huge numbers who they saw on the streets. But it goes to show that racial violence isnt just a USA thing.
By the way I think that the Minister is chatting nonsense. Hatred can be committed by any group and if its based on "race" then its racist. Blacks can also be racist. The issue is can people who lack power discriminate. I think thats what she meant to say.
The larger issue is how wide spread is this. One reported incident-tragic though it may be-does not equal an epidemic of racial violence at Brazilian universities.
While racial attacks might be isolated the near absence of blacks/part blacks from tertiary levels of education isnt. Just today I was speaking to some one who has a Nigerian friend who lives in Brazil. That Nigerian claims that the greatest barrier that many black and darker mixed Brazilians have is extreme low self esteem. They dont try because they "know" that to do so in Brazil is a waste of time because blacks will not be given a chance. Some kids in a TV show called City of Men claimed that a black would never get a job as a salesperson and then laughed cynically at the "good appearance" requirement which is code for "black boy dont even bother".
These foreign black students have often been appalled at what they have seen in Brazil. Totally un PC attitudes of whites (as in these blacks like to sing and dance and are so happy) and the low self esteem of blacks and darker mixed people as described above. I knew some West Indians who went to be trained at their Foreign Affairs school and were shocked that ALL of the Brazilians there were white or very light. They were even more shocked that few Brazilians, black or white, were disturbed by this. They just thought that it was the natural order of things (note the blacks singing and dancing comments).
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Fri 06 Apr 2007 04:11 Post subject: Re: "Attack against black students raises questions...."
caribj wrote:
Omar clearly you dont know Trinidad or you wouldnt say they look clser to Nigeria.
.
Yes. And clearly you don't know Latin America either.
caribj wrote:
Yet Trinidadians of African descent have no problem with being "black" and have fought for their rights as blacks, sometimes with, and at times in opposition to the Mixed population, and of course the struggles for dominance against the East Indians is well documented. Multi ethnicity is no excuse for tolerance of colorism. BTW more than a few Trinidad families do look like United Nations.
.
So what? Don't you know that most people of Latin America has different mixtures as well? You can see different races in the same family.
caribj wrote:
Omar I happen to agree with you that 50% of the population of Brazil arent African or even part African. What people have done is that they have added "black" to "pardo" and then said, voila these people are "black". Having said that a significant part of Brazilians do have visible SSAfrican ancestry as measured by appearance and this number is greater than 6%. I think they need a fourth category which separates people who are mixed but moreso Indigenous from people who are also mixed but moreso SSAfrican.
.
The problem is precisely that. Do you have a machine to determine which person is black and who is not? Because that is what you need in Brazil to create a "Black" minority. And after you have that machine to classify people, you'll realize that a large number of families were cut in half!! That is the problem with the marvelous idea of the racial quotas in Brazil.
caribj wrote:
Its however without a doubt that those who have visible signs of SSAfrican ancestry do have a harder time in Brazil, no matter what they want to call themselves. So we have a "black" intellectual class in Brazil trying to fight colorism, and a strong possibility that the masses, even those who are part "black" denying that this is a problem. But yet the face of success in Brazil (as defined by who is middle class) remains largely white or very light.
Could you define what are thos "visible" signs of African ancestry?
Do you mean curly hair? lots Iberians, Italians and Middle Easterners also have it, and there are quite a lot of them in Brazil (Are they really Blacks "passing" as Europeans )
Do you mean prognatism? many Native Americans also have it. Some natives also have slightly thick lips.
Do you mean skin color? Many Native Americans of Brazil are not light at all.
But I agree with you. A person that is 80% of more African will have a hard time all over Latin America, indeed. Starting from the discrimination comming from the Mulattoes. No kidding. You could read Nicolas Guillen, Cuban poet, and you'll realize something we know, the people that discriminated the most is the closely related. Mestizos discriminate Indians and Mulattoes are the ones that discriminate Blacks, the most.
Joined: 10 Mar 2006 {Posts: 235 } Location: Atlanta
Posted: Fri 06 Apr 2007 17:51 Post subject: Re: "Attack against black students raises questions...."
oevega wrote:
[
What I say is that there are not more Nigerians-looking people in Brazil that in Nigeria, because Brazilian people is genetically different from Nigeria. Brazil is tree-racial and the largest majority is White. Something that some reporters try to change and twist. Actually, Trinidad look closer to Nigeria than Brazil; a lot closer.
Posted: Fri 06 Apr 2007 18:02 Post subject: Re: "Attack against black students raises questions...."
Fledgist wrote:
Os brasileiros são da raza das árvores?
Apos de me levantar do chao, a primeira coisa que pensei foi, "como e que voce faz os acentos, as tildes, e as cedilhas?" Nao posso encontrar o jeito de maneira nenhuma!
Jesus! You guys love to pull legs, but if I do, I get suspended two weeks
Ok. I shut up now.
Omar
Because you seem stuck in a particular zone which negates the daily experiences of those who arent European, or almost so in appearances in LatAm. They can and do suffer from colorism. Their attempts to escape the impact of classism is rendered even more difficult by this. Concede that point.
And really who here is claiming that there is a significant 100% African population in Brazil. In fact I am telling you that even Trinidads population is more diverse than you think. The 38% who call themselves "African" does indeed include many who in Brazil would claim to be mulato, merely because they dont look 100% SSAfrican.
BTW Omar I have been to DR, PR, Panama, Venezuela, Ecuador and Brazil. In all those countries I noted that the middle classes look very different phenotypically as a whole than the poorer classes. And that the upper middle class is usually light skinned. Have you been to Trinidad, Guyana, Suriname or Belize, countries where Afro descendants are also minorities? We exist at all layers of these societies. Please dont beg off with your classism excuse because given our common histories of colonialism I doubt that classism is less of an issue. If it is then you need to ask yourself why.
Last edited by caribj on Tue 10 Apr 2007 18:32; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Tue 10 Apr 2007 18:29 Post subject: Re: "Attack against black students raises questions...."
oevega wrote:
The problem is precisely that. Do you have a machine to determine which person is black and who is not? Because that is what you need in Brazil to create a "Black" minority.That is the problem with the marvelous idea of the racial quotas in Brazil.
[Omar
We are not arguing over quotas so why raise it. However this doesnt negate the fact that those who are more visibly "African" in appearance usually get fewer opportunities, regardless as to how they may want to classify themselves, or what their siblings might look like. Your response is to ignore colorism because its "less important".
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Tue 10 Apr 2007 18:45 Post subject:
caribj wrote:
...
And really who here is claiming that there is a significant 100% African population in Brazil. In fact I am telling you that even Trinidads population is more diverse than you think. The 38% who call themselves "African" does indeed include many who in Brazil would claim to be mulato, merely because they dont look 100% SSAfrican.
BTW Omar I have been to DR, PR, Panama, Venezuela, Ecuador and Brazil. In all those countries I noted that the middle classes look very different phenotypically as a whole than the poorer classes. And that the upper middle class is usually light skinned. Have you been to Trinidad, Guyana, Suriname or Belize, countries where Afro descendants are also minorities? We exist at all layers of these societies. Please dont beg off with your classism excuse because given our common histories of colonialism I doubt that classism is less of an issue. If it is then you need to ask yourself why.
Well, perhaps you are right. In the case of Southern South America, in countries like Argentina, Paraguay and Chile, and in some of Central America, we don't have a Black minority to speak of. The only "colorism" possible is between Indians, Mediterraneans and Germans, and its mixtures. But in here the lines are very fuzzy so that's what I speak about.
And yes, the attitude of many Latinos (I mean in the continioum from White-Mestizo-Indian) in many countries is of rejection to Black peoples.
Mestizos are sometimes more racist than the White supremacists.
That's what I know. Even more, there is also a feeling of pitty form people that is "unlucky" to be Black. That is -perhaps- something unique in this region.
And yes, in the countries that you mentioned, Blacks are indeed at the bottom, however you can find mulattoes even in the highest post.
'
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