Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Sat 07 Apr 2007 03:59 Post subject: Ridiculous Brazilian Racial Quotas
The Brazilian polemic about racial quotas goes on. It is starting to look really ridiculos. The lady below was accepted in an university because she is "mulatta" (Afro-European) and she laugh loudly about it. Actually, the lady look more "mestiza" (Euro-Indigenous) than anything else.
If you read Spanish, have fun. This is from an Argentinean newspaper:
Quote:
UN PROYECTO DE LEY QUE TIENE MEDIA SANCION EN EL CONGRESO
Polémica en Brasil por un plan a favor del ingreso universitario de negros e indios
Reserva el 50% de cupos para alumnos de escuelas públicas, en particular de esas razas.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eleonora Gosman. SAN PABLO. CORRESPONSAL
egosman@clarin.com
Los rectores de las Universidades federales brasileñas se oponen a instituir un sistema de cuotas que beneficie el ingreso de jóvenes de la secundaria pública, de negros y de indios. El proyecto integrador, aprobado esta semana por el Senado y que debe ser votado ahora en Diputados, generó una doble discusión en el ámbito de la enseñanza superior brasileña.
Algunos sostienen que la política de cupos para egresados de las escuelas estatales y jóvenes de color irá a provocar un descenso en la calidad de la enseñanza universitaria brasileña, "al nivelar para abajo". Otros en cambio ven el problema en cómo probar que el alumno sea realmente de origen negro o indio.
En esta polémica tallan hasta los genetistas brasileños, quienes han afirmado que el 86 por ciento de la población brasileña posee más de 10 por ciento de genes africanos. Para complicar las cosas un estudio que se realizó en Porto Alegre, en un grupo de negros y pardos, reveló que éstos tenían más de 50 por ciento de genes procedentes de ancestros europeos.
¿Por qué semejante polémica? En parte porque, según sostienen en los medios universitarios, un estudiante que fracasó en el examen de ingreso podría verse tentado a conseguir su vacante con el argumento de ser descendiente de africanos o amerindios.
El presidente de la Sociedad Brasileña de Genética, Francisco Salzano, confirmó a la prensa que en Brasil no se efectúan aún análisis de marcadores de ADN para probar el origen racial, que sí se realizan en Estados Unidos y en Europa.
El proyecto de ley, que ya tiene media sanción, fija un cupo de 50% de vacantes universitarias para chicos brasileños que estudiaron en escuelas públicas. Dentro de ese paquete se incluyen las plazas para estudiantes de raza negra o descendientes de indios, en una proporción que dependerá de la cantidad de habitantes de color, por región o por provincia. La norma establece cuatro años para el concretar el proyecto integrador. Los rectores de las universidades federales sostienen que "es un tiempo demasiado corto".
El gobierno de Lula da Silva defendió, a través de su ministro de Educación Fernando Haddad, la necesidad de adoptar una "política afirmativa" en el campo educativo, que integre pobres, indios y negros. "El sistema de cuotas no perjudicará el nivel académico" subrayó el funcionario.
Algunos rectores universitarios sostienen que se dará lugar a alumnos "que entrarán en la universidad para abandonarla en un semestre. En tanto, serán necesarios más libros, más bibliotecas, más recursos para subsidiar alimentación, transporte y alojamiento". En el Congreso, la oposición a Lula da Silva intenta frenar el proyecto integrador. "Así como está planteado hiere el derecho de igualdad de todos los brasileños", sostuvo el diputado Rodrigo Maia, líder del derechista Partido del Frente Liberal.
Posted: Sat 07 Apr 2007 10:36 Post subject: Re: Ridiculous Brazilian Racial Quotas
In the context of the newly passed laws instituting affirmative action in Brazil, the above statement is interesting:
Quote:
The president of the Brazilian Genetic Society, Francisco Salzano, confirmed to the press that in Brazil, DNA markers are not yet analyzed to prove racial origin, as is done in the United States and in Europe.
I wonder were Salzano got this information. I know of no case where any U.S. authority (legislature, law court, or bureaucratic agency) has relied on DNA testing to decide whether someone qualfies for affirmative action benefits. On the contrary, I know of several cases where U.S. authorities have ruled that "Blackness" in this context depends solely upon membership in and support from the African-American community and has nothing to do with biological heredity (DNA).
Joined: 02 May 2006 {Posts: 363 } Location: Île-de-France
Posted: Thu 26 Apr 2007 19:21 Post subject:
This is an interesting quoto system that looks at class first, and then color.
Quote:
El proyecto de ley, que ya tiene media sanción, fija un cupo de 50% de vacantes universitarias para chicos brasileños que estudiaron en escuelas públicas. Dentro de ese paquete se incluyen las plazas para estudiantes de raza negra o descendientes de indios, en una proporción que dependerá de la cantidad de habitantes de color, por región o por provincia. La norma establece cuatro años para el concretar el proyecto integrador. Los rectores de las universidades federales sostienen que "es un tiempo demasiado corto".
Translation:
Quote:
The law, that already has preliminary approval, sets a quota of 50% of university seats for brazilian youths who studied in public school. Included in the package are spaces for black students or indian descendants, in a proportion that will depend on the quatity of residents of color, by region or province The bill establishes a four year time table to complete the integration project. The federal university rectors maintain that "[4 years] is not enough time.
It seems to me that this is a genuine good faith effort to adress some of the very real class divisions that exist in Brazil and that are to some degree related to color or phenotype. One could assume from the proposal that currently less than half of students attending state university in Brazil attend public school. It would be interesting to see what that number actually is. While I don't know for sure, I imagine that public school graduates make up significantly more that 50% of public university students in the united states. Now, on to the racial/color part of the equation. I don't live in brazil and I am not going to tell them how to solve their own problems of colorism. But if they do implement this program, for the sake of clairity they should state that they are implimenting it on appearance (at least for "black" students).
To illustrate, I look to Color and genomic ancestry in Brazilians Flavia C. Parra et. al., which provides the following:
The table provides the median african admixture level for individuals determined to be in the three groups by the authors using phenotipic criteria. With the confidence intervals alone there is significant overlap; the study also provides a table that shows when you look at individual subjects, there is full overlap from the black group to the white group. What this means to me is that Caetano Veloso or Gal Costa might have more african ancestry that Gilberto Gil or Milton Nacimento. On a genetic level or an ancestry level, the color based quotas make no sense. However, if you are adressing social stratification based only on color, the color based quotas could be a reasonable solution.
The authors of the same study do suggest the possiblity that phenotipically similar people have separated themselves into groups in brazil, creating black/mixed/white groups that all share similar ancestries. I would imagine this would over time decrease divergent phenotypes between siblings more than in places where such color stratification has not ocurred.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Thu 26 Apr 2007 19:55 Post subject:
My country uses a method that is so much simple to balance the opportunity of low income people to enter to the university, that makes me wonder why Brazilians or Americans preffer those strange racist method of assigning resources.
In here we have poor people of Amerindian origin that usually have less resources and less opportunities to access to higher education than the rest. The way things get even is simply assigning scholarships and extra resources to the POOR peoples. The help is proportional to the income. The less money you have the most opportunities you have to get schollarships, credits financiated by the state and so as.
If there is an ethnic group that is at the bottom of the social scale, it will receive more resources authomatically. No need to mention the word "race". Besides, it help all the poors, including those that are white.
I believe that's the only solution, because start from considering the real cause of the problem: poverty.
If there is an ethnic group that is at the bottom of the social scale, it will receive more resources authomatically. No need to mention the word "race". Besides, it help all the poors, including those that are white.
I believe that's the only solution, because start from considering the real cause of the problem: poverty.
Omar
What if within the category of the poor certain ethnic groups perform worse than others because of a legacy of past or present racism/colorism?
If there is an ethnic group that is at the bottom of the social scale, it will receive more resources authomatically. No need to mention the word "race". Besides, it help all the poors, including those that are white.
I believe that's the only solution, because start from considering the real cause of the problem: poverty.
Omar
What if within the category of the poor certain ethnic groups perform worse than others because of a legacy of past or present racism/colorism?
Do you have evidence this is occurring in Brazil? That a mulata is performing worse than a poor person of European descent in say Sao Paolo?
Do you have evidence this is occurring in Brazil? That a mulata is performing worse than a poor person of European descent in say Sao Paolo?
I am posing a question. I dont know one way or the other but I can well imagine that if certain groups have been discriminated against in the past or currently there maybe self esteem issues which manifest in under performance even relative to other groups with similar socio-economic status. My point is if colorism is an issue that impacts upward mobility in Latin America (and evidence is clear that it is otherwise bodies like teh OAS and the IDB wouldnt be recommending that special attention be given to Afrodescendants and the Indigenous) ignoring it doesnt make the problem go away.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Sat 28 Apr 2007 02:12 Post subject:
caribj wrote:
...What if within the category of the poor certain ethnic groups perform worse than others because of a legacy of past or present racism/colorism?
That's a good point. In my country all the admissions to universities are decided by skill tests. It all depends on yourself. The help is though on the financial side, only.
Our society has not though to give the opportunity to enter to the university to people that is not qualified. Actually, the goals of the Universities is to have the smartest people as possible, in there, and they get rid of anyone that can't achieve in theirs studies.
However, our minorities are smart people, and many of them is achieving college degrees. Financial help is needed, of course, but they don't need to get a free ride to universities.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Sat 28 Apr 2007 02:26 Post subject:
caribj wrote:
...
I am posing a question. I dont know one way or the other but I can well imagine that if certain groups have been discriminated against in the past or currently there maybe self esteem issues which manifest in under performance even relative to other groups with similar socio-economic status. My point is if colorism is an issue that impacts upward mobility in Latin America (and evidence is clear that it is otherwise bodies like teh OAS and the IDB wouldnt be recommending that special attention be given to Afrodescendants and the Indigenous) ignoring it doesnt make the problem go away.
Salssasin can tell you the experience in Peru, and I can tell you the experience in Chile and Canada with respect to Native peoples.
I don't observe a problem of self-steem in Chilean Natives at all, unlike what I saw in Canada. I don't know why the attitudes are quite different but they are. The Native of Chile, at least, all that want is to compite with the "robbers" (they call us that way) and win, and they work hard and study even harder.
I have seen that attitude in several minorities in Latin America and I am not certain (Salssasin correct me on this one, please) but I am quite sure Black Brazilians have no such serious problems of self-esteem as Black Americans. After all, a Black Brazilian usually go to school with people of other colors, and many of theirs friends and relatives could be of the "other races" as well. Even a sibling can look totally different.
What I am certain, though, is that Mulattoes Brazilians don't have it many conflicts, because they consider themselves as part of it.
Finally, in Chile, at least, colorism is only important if you are going to be the figure in a campain to sale cell phones. In most of other things, what matters is money, titles and personality. Even style, clothes, last names, where you live and features come before color of skin.
America and I am not certain (Salssasin correct me on this one, please) but I am quite sure Black Brazilians have no such serious problems of self-esteem as Black Americans. After all, a Black Brazilian usually go to school with people of other colors, and many of theirs friends and relatives could be of the "other races" as well. Pinguin
In fact when I was in Brazil I was told that by black Brazilians that foreign blacks (most of whom are African Americans by the way) can be spotted because we radiate more self confidence than a Brazilian black would when walking around middle class environments. And that if its known that we are foreign we will be treated better.
Actually having friends and being "integrated" might be a perfect reason why some one who is marginalized solely because of their appearance might have self esteem issues. After all if there are two siblings, one light the other dark. The dark one has fewer opportunities than the light one when they are blocked from jobs requiring "good appearance", or they go into hotels and have security guards racing behind them and not their lighter sibling, or when they go to restaurants and are ignored. Because they have more invested in their supposed "social integration" with whites such rejection can be expected to hit them harder than it might us in the USA who expect such rejection, and as a result are less invested in complete social integration with whites.
As for college education. Its easy to see that blacks in the USA have far more access to college education and are much more likely to be middle class than equivalent looking people in Brazil. After all the OAS, IDB and the World bank arent insisting that special actions need to be taken to help AfricanAmericans the way that they insist for Afrodescendants in Latin America, inclusive of Brazil. They are aware that a huge black middle class exists in the USA and that more than a few blacks have risen to the top in government and in the corporate sectors. African Americans are far more mobilized to confront racism when it does occur. The concern is this doesnt seem to be the case in Latin America so additional attention is urged on this issue of colorism against those with visible African ancestry.
As a personal aside I can tell you that I felt more aware of race/color when I was in Latin America than I do here in the USA. Here a category called middle class black exists and so I am more shielded from the savage treatment that a poor black might expect. People will usually be polite and PC around me, whatever they may think of blacks.
In Latin America where the middle class "black" category exists to a much lesser degree and where there is a more powerful association of being "black" (as in looking black or darker mulatto) with being poor I found that I had to be much more careful about how I negotiated entry into certain spaces (like making sure that I was heard speaking English).
Such a quota system would have disastrous effects. For one, those blacks who made use of it might often have children of a completely different race, even if they marry other blacks. This makes you wonder if these people are really black in the way that the advocates of this rule would have us think. So, would it be helping blacks, or just a given generation?
Furthermore, how would they define who is really "black"? Appearance would be the only reasonable way since most Brazilians are "mulattos" no matter what their socially defined race. But then, the question is why should blacks be helped out when there are plenty of browns, dark browns, tans, and yellows in similar situations of disenfranchisement? The fact that blacks are disliked more often isnt good enough. Where is the evidence that within a given class blacks are discriminated against to such an extent that a special program needs to be created for them? And supposing they were, again, would not similar results be found for browns and tans, and shouldnt they have a special program too? Any kind of quota system would be supremely unfair to them.
Such a quota system would have disastrous effects. .
1. This is politically advocacy where you are forcing your views on a Latin American country.
2. Brazilians of mixed ancestry arent excluded and oevega showed evidence of this. Please do not be trapped by your anti black attitudes to peddle that untruth.
1. This is politically advocacy where you are forcing your views on a Latin American country.
2. Brazilians of mixed ancestry arent excluded and oevega showed evidence of this. Please do not be trapped by your anti black attitudes to peddle that untruth.
1. Ah so it is. I respectfully retract my above statement because it is inappropriate and does not belong in this section. Then again, this entire thread was started by political advocacy from Oevega so what else is new?
2. Really, why dont you provide said evidence. And also, you are now attributing motives to me. You are saying that I am basing my comment on dislike of blacks. You really have no business telling me about political advocacy. Now, the evidence please.
1. This is politically advocacy where you are forcing your views on a Latin American country.
2. Brazilians of mixed ancestry arent excluded and oevega showed evidence of this. Please do not be trapped by your anti black attitudes to peddle that untruth.
1. Ah so it is. I respectfully retract my above statement because it is inappropriate and does not belong in this section. Then again, this entire thread was started by political advocacy from Oevega so what else is new?
2. Really, why dont you provide said evidence. And also, you are now attributing motives to me. You are saying that I am basing my comment on dislike of blacks. You really have no business telling me about political advocacy. Now, the evidence please.
The evidence is there. The girl in that picture doesnt even meet the US definition of being black much less the Brazilian. In fact some argue that affirmative action in Brazil cannot work (that is assuming that it works in the USA which many would say that it doesnt) because in a fluid society like Brazil there is no clear notion as to who is and who isnt "black". This then leaves "white" people to claim that they are entitled because of a distant black ancestor. In Brazil having distant African ancestry doesnt make one nonwhite as it may very well do in the USA so there is no disincentive for some one who is socially white to claim blackness for this purpose. Its therefore clear that mixed Brazilians are eligible and anyone can become mixed when it suits their purpose in a country like Brazil.
Your opinions about blacks are well documented as is your revulsion about being connected to us, a revulsion which you appear not to have towards the white part of your ancestry.
Your opinions about blacks are well documented as is your revulsion about being connected to us, a revulsion which you appear not to have towards the white part of your ancestry.
I like my genes, but I dont like my socialy defined ethnic group. So lets see now "being a part of my own group" vs. "being a social outcast open to all kinds of racist descrimination, from EVERYBODY", gee, I wonder which choice to make?
By the way, black ancestry is made up, just like white ancestry. Didnt you know?
Your opinions about blacks are well documented as is your revulsion about being connected to us, a revulsion which you appear not to have towards the white part of your ancestry.
I like my genes, but I dont like my socialy defined ethnic group. So lets see now "being a part of my own group" vs. "being a social outcast open to all kinds of racist descrimination, from EVERYBODY", gee, I wonder which choice to make?
By the way, black ancestry is made up, just like white ancestry. Didnt you know?
TMK
why are you continuing this line of conversation here? This part of the board is not an appropriate place for this.
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