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Powell
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Joined: 27 Nov 2004
{Posts: 2462 }
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 Posted: Mon 25 Jun 2007 02:46 Post subject: Is the term "light-skinned Black" insulting? |
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[This thread was split from A Part Colored By History: White Actress For Mixed-Race Role in the "Popular Culture" forum. -- FWS]
| Quote: | Elia Kazan's "Pinky," playing a light-skinned black woman who looked white. Jeanne Crain, who was white, got the part.
It's ironic that Washington's one mainstream Hollywood role was her tragic turn as Peola in the Academy Award-nominated "Imitation of Life"(1934) -- playing a white-looking black girl who abandoned her dark-skinned mother in her quest to pass. |
Using the oxymoron "light-skinned black" is as insulting as calling a Jew a "non-Aryan." By saying that those characters are not "white," the film makers are agreeing that "the Negro" is racially inferior. If they're not, then the characters are white. The message to the audience is clear. |
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Salsassin
SuperWizard
Joined: 04 Apr 2005
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| Posted: Mon 25 Jun 2007 03:14 Post subject: Re: White v. black |
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| Powell wrote: | | Using the oxymoron "light-skinned black" is as insulting as calling a Jew a "non-Aryan." |
Using the term light skinned black on someone who does not identify as such would definitely be an erroneous description. It would only be an insult if they found the term Black offensive. I have been asked if I am Russian. I never found it insulting. I just corrected their mistake. Now if I was a light skinned person who was raised in a Black community and identified as Black and read a post about how my identity was an oxymoron, then I definitely would be insulted. This could easily fall under the same rule as people who claim that people who chose to identify as White because they were raised in the community, although they have mixed ancestry are sell outs. Both advocate against the right to self identification.
| Quote: | | By saying that those characters are not "white," the film makers are agreeing that "the Negro" is racially inferior. |
By saying they are not white, they are just saying they are not White. They are fictitional characters and as such fully within the parameters designated by the author. I don't see the jump of logic to Negros being inferior. All they are saying is that those characters may have thought the identity of being considered Black might have been inferior.
| Quote: | | If they're not, then the characters are white. The message to the audience is clear. |
I disagree for the above stated reasons. What could be argued is that in similar real life cases many people have not identified as light skinned blacks but as mixed. But they would even be forsaking/hiding that identity if they abandon their family and break all ties. |
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lady marmalade
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Joined: 19 Jun 2007
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Location: Los Angeles, California
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| Posted: Mon 25 Jun 2007 03:33 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Now if I was a light skinned person who was raised in a Black community and identified as Black and read a post about how my identity was an oxymoron, then I definitely would be insulted. |
I was actually insulted. But whatever. |
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Powell
Guru
Joined: 27 Nov 2004
{Posts: 2462 }
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| Posted: Mon 25 Jun 2007 03:37 Post subject: The myth of the "light-skinned black" |
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| Quote: | | Quote: | Powell wrote:
Using the oxymoron "light-skinned black" is as insulting as calling a Jew a "non-Aryan." |
Using the term light skinned black on someone who does not identify as such would definitely be an erroneous description. It would only be an insult if they found the term Black offensive. I have been asked if I am Russian. I never found it insulting. I just corrected their mistake. Now if I was a light skinned person who was raised in a Black community and identified as Black and read a post about how my identity was an oxymoron, then I definitely would be insulted. This could easily fall under the same rule as people who claim that people who chose to identify as White because they were raised in the community, although they have mixed ancestry are sell outs. Both advocate against the right to self identification. |
You know very well that there has traditionally been no "free choice" on this issue. Nearly all the "anti-passing" films and literature are designed to scare people and cause them to self-police themselves and thus refrain from marriage and identification with other whites. Do you dare to claim the term "black" is not traditionally offensive, especially when applied to people who are not physically black? Whenever I point out the partial African ancestry in Latinos in order to prove that "society" does not automatically classify anyone with "black blood" as "black," some fool Latino whines that Latinos don't want to be considered "black." This happened in "Interracial Voice" and it has happened to me in person. Obviously, I am not calling them "black," I am only trying to show that their Anglo and Creole counterparts are NOT BLACK, but the very fact that I raised the issue of their African ancestry is a threat to them. That's because "black" ancestry carries a stigma, regardless of whether someone claims he "chose" to identify with it or not.
| Quote: | | Quote: | Quote:
By saying that those characters are not "white," the film makers are agreeing that "the Negro" is racially inferior. |
By saying they are not white, they are just saying they are not White. They are fictitional characters and as such fully within the parameters designated by the author. I don't see the jump of logic to Negros being inferior. All they are saying is that those characters may have thought the identity of being considered Black might have been inferior. |
Using the same logic, shall we say that when filmmakers in the Third Reich presented Jews as inferior, Non-Aryan vermin, they were not necessarily saying that there was something wrong with being Jewish? When people who had never considered themselves Jewish were labeled as Jews and non-Aryans, no doubt the Nazis were not doing this in order to say that Jews were inferior.
| Quote: | | Quote: | Quote:
If they're not, then the characters are white. The message to the audience is clear. |
I disagree for the above stated reasons. What could be argued is that in similar real life cases many people have not identified as light skinned blacks but as mixed. But they would even be forsaking/hiding that identity if they abandon their family and break all ties. |
The lesson intended for the white audience is that inferior Negro blood should be kept out of the white race, no matter how attractive the package it in which it comes.
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Salsassin
SuperWizard
Joined: 04 Apr 2005
{Posts: 3515 }
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| Posted: Mon 25 Jun 2007 03:48 Post subject: |
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| lady marmalade wrote: | | Quote: | | Now if I was a light skinned person who was raised in a Black community and identified as Black and read a post about how my identity was an oxymoron, then I definitely would be insulted. |
I was actually insulted. But whatever. |
Point made. |
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fwsweet
Administrator
Joined: 26 Nov 2004
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Location: Palm Coast, FL
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| Posted: Mon 25 Jun 2007 03:49 Post subject: |
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| lady marmalade wrote: | | I was actually insulted. |
Then you are in violation of rule 1.4.
Just kidding, Lady Marmalade. It has been a long day. |
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Salsassin
SuperWizard
Joined: 04 Apr 2005
{Posts: 3515 }
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| Posted: Mon 25 Jun 2007 04:01 Post subject: Re: The myth of the "light-skinned black" |
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| Powell wrote: |
You know very well that there has traditionally been no "free choice" on this issue. Nearly all the "anti-passing" films and literature are designed to scare people and cause them to self-police themselves and thus refrain from marriage and identification with other whites. |
Fully aware that people were forced by one droppism. It doesn't change the fact many embraced the concept. And still do to this day. You can't make an absolute claim for all mixed people who identified as Black that they were coerced into their identity.
| Quote: | | Do you dare to claim the term "black" is not traditionally offensive, especially when applied to people who are not physically black? |
Depends on where. For some it is for some it isn't.
| Quote: | | Whenever I point out the partial African ancestry in Latinos in order to prove that "society" does not automatically classify anyone with "black blood" as "black," some fool Latino whines that Latinos don't want to be considered "black." |
Is he a fool because he is Latino or because he doesn't want to be considered Black? And when did these latinos become representatives of all Latinos?
| Quote: | | This happened in "Interracial Voice" and it has happened to me in person. Obviously, I am not calling them "black," I am only trying to show that their Anglo and Creole counterparts are NOT BLACK |
Which is the problem. If you had said, aren't necessarily Black, then I would agree, but you seek to impose your value judgments on to others as to how they should identify. Not just give them free reign to choose for themselves based on their life experiences.
| Quote: | but the very fact that I raised the issue of their African ancestry is a threat to them. That's because "black" ancestry carries a stigma, regardless of whether someone claims he "chose" to identify with it or not.
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Again, depends on the Latino. For many it is a source of pride. I am one of them. And in many Latinos even the darkest European can sometimes affectionately be called negro, so the word as a descriptor doesn't have to be offensive.
| Quote: | | Using the same logic, shall we say that when filmmakers in the Third Reich presented Jews as inferior, Non-Aryan vermin, they were not necessarily saying that there was something wrong with being Jewish? |
Not same logic as you have not indicated that in the movie Blacks were portrayed as inferior. Only that people percieved them as inferior. There is a difference.
| Quote: | | When people who had never considered themselves Jewish were labeled as Jews and non-Aryans, no doubt the Nazis were not doing this in order to say that Jews were inferior. |
If the Nazis weren't trying to kill the Jews explicitly, confusion of identity would not have been threatening,
| Quote: | | The lesson intended for the white audience is that inferior Negro blood should be kept out of the white race, no matter how attractive the package it in which it comes. |
Show me this through a plot summary. |
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Powell
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Salsassin
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| Posted: Mon 25 Jun 2007 04:25 Post subject: Re: Imitation of Life |
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Never saw the movie so I just will go by Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imitation_of_Life_(1934_film)
Forgive me if I don't hold Winkel's evaluation as dogma.
As far as I can see, the movie deals with how life quality could be inferior under racism, not that being Black or of Black ancestry was to be inferior. Thus I suspect this is another one of Powell's opinions stated as fact. |
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fwsweet
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Joined: 26 Nov 2004
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Location: Palm Coast, FL
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| Posted: Mon 25 Jun 2007 04:41 Post subject: Re: Imitation of Life |
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| Salsassin wrote: | | As far as I can see, the movie deals with how life quality could be inferior under racism, not that being Black or of Black ancestry was to be inferior. |
This may depend on which version we are talking about: the 1934 "pancake" version with Caudette Colbert or the 1959 version with Lana Turner. If the former, I have to agree with A.D. In fact, a member recently posted that they tried to watch it but turned it off because it was so racist that they could not stomach it. (Not "racist" in the sense of depicting racist acts, like "Mississippi Burning." But racist in the sense of implicitly assuming A-A inferiority, like "Birth of a Nation." Perhaps whoever posted it can help out here. |
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Powell
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| Posted: Mon 25 Jun 2007 04:45 Post subject: Salsassin's lies |
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Jaime hasn't seen the film yet dares to argue with people who have seen it and studied it in detail.
| Quote: | Never saw the movie so I just will go by Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imitation_of_Life_(1934_film)
Forgive me if I don't hold Winkel's evaluation as dogma.
As far as I can see, the movie deals with how life quality could be inferior under racism, not that being Black or of Black ancestry was to be inferior. Thus I suspect this is another one of Powell's opinions stated as fact. |
Everything Winkel wrote is superior to your drivel. Jaime labels his opinions as fact and my historical facts as opinion. Note his behavior during the "Mexican American legal whiteness" discussion. |
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Salsassin
SuperWizard
Joined: 04 Apr 2005
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| Posted: Mon 25 Jun 2007 04:48 Post subject: Re: Imitation of Life |
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| fwsweet wrote: | | Salsassin wrote: | | As far as I can see, the movie deals with how life quality could be inferior under racism, not that being Black or of Black ancestry was to be inferior. |
This may depend on which version we are talking about: the 1934 "pancake" version with Caudette Colbert or the 1959 version with Lana Turner. If the former, I have to agree with A.D. In fact, a member recently posted that they tried to watch it but turned it off because it was so racist that they could not stomach it. (Not "racist" in the sense of depicting racist acts, like "Mississippi Burning." But racist in the sense of implicitly assuming A-A inferiority, like "Birth of a Nation." Perhaps whoever posted it can help out here. |
Could be. Haven't seen the movie. It was interesting that the Light skinned Black girl was played by a light skinned Black identified girl according to Wikipedia. |
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Salsassin
SuperWizard
Joined: 04 Apr 2005
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| Posted: Mon 25 Jun 2007 04:51 Post subject: Re: Salsassin's lies |
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| Powell wrote: | | Everything Winkel wrote is superior to your drivel. |
Powell is the ad hominem queen today.
| Quote: | | Jaime labels his opinions as fact and my historical facts as opinion. Note his behavior during the "Mexican American legal whiteness" discussion. |
Already addressed these claims there for all to see. |
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lady marmalade
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Joined: 19 Jun 2007
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Location: Los Angeles, California
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| Posted: Mon 25 Jun 2007 04:56 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Then you are in violation of rule 1.4.
Just kidding, Lady Marmalade. It has been a long day. |
That says do not be "offended", I was insulted!  |
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Powell
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fwsweet
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Joined: 26 Nov 2004
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Location: Palm Coast, FL
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| Posted: Mon 25 Jun 2007 06:20 Post subject: Re: Salsassin's lies |
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| Powell wrote: | | Everything Winkel wrote is superior to your drivel |
Oh oh. See you in a week, A.D. Suspended until July 1, 2007 (2.2). |
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