So do mulatos. SO I guess they consider themselves ugly as well
More than likely.
Quote:
How many African Americans look "Caucasian" Feel free to match statistics to prove your claim.
I never claimed that there was a huge or low number of caucasian looking African-Americans. My claim was that a black man can date a woman with a caucasian phenotype and still be included in the "90% of black men marry black women" statistic.
But until you can provide evidence that the majority of those African American women that are being married are either Caucasian or "mulatto" looking, your whole argument is unsubstantiated as to marriage preferences pf African Americans.
salsassin asked: How many African Americans look "Caucasian" Feel free to match statistics to prove your claim.
You would not be able to reconize them anyway the average person would not so what is the use.
He did the claim. It is up to him to provide the evidence.
I am sure looking at the average admixture in the African American population we can do a guesstimate of how many would come out looking mostly African and compare it to out marriage rates.
If black women are dark skin and Caramel complaining about lighter skin black women getting more attention you this is why mulattos and black sneeds to maybe go back to being seprate ethnic groups. That would solve all of the problems of jealousy, anger, etc right there.
And please nobody needs come at me with that silly stuff of wanting sources to prov a point that observations by many on this board have maybe seen in video, movies, mgazines, television, etc.. separation would solve these problems.
Feel free how. Colorism can still Affect the African American community even without mulattoes. It affects Africa. Colorism can still affect a new Mulatto community as it did before. Furthermore, the slew of other problems that would occur from a three tiered society more than overwhelms some claim that value of looks is being undermined. What needs to be pushed is auto determination and fighting against ethnocoercion by different ethnic groups.
I fail to see how this could be considered "cultural mythology" when there is evidence of it throughout black media. The only counter-evidence you have provided is "90% of black men marry black women."
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Let me help you understand a simple fact: The evidence that you have provided aside from your personal experience, anecdotes, hearsay, media outlets amounts to a hill of beans in generalizing to the population of African Americans numbering in the millions. Where your declarations of fact need to stop short is in generalizing to that population. Full stop. Until you conduct or share data using representative samples, taken at various times over the "ten years" you say this phenomenon has occurred, meeting the stringent standards laid out in quantitative research methodology, you might then have a prayer of being convincing.
The person making a sweeping generalization about upwards of 10 million people has the burden of proof, and it's a heavy burden if based on BET, your opinion, and your limited personal experiences. I am highly skeptical of your claims, not only because of my personal experiences and competing anecdotes counter yours, but because when you explain yourself further you become entangled in your own argument. More on this below.
Hanzou wrote:
However because of ODR, we know that a "black women" can vary the color spectrum all the way up to caucasian. If there is favoritism within the African American community for lighter skin (which would be supported by evidence in black media, and various studies on the topic) that would fall in line with the complaints of true black women that black men don't truly find them attractive.
I'm so glad you brought this up. The reason why the claim that "Black men don't find Black women attractive" is hopelessly messy is due to the ODR, high endogamy and prolific babymaking among medium-dark to dark skinned people who pass on their phenotype to offspring.
Actually what would really be convincing is some evidence showing the relative proportion of various skin tones within the A-A population, correlated with marriage/dating/procreation rates. You keep saying that Black men don't want darkskinned women (actually you didn't but that is clearly what you meant) so what proportion of the A-A population is comprised of darkskinned people? Let's assume that 70% of Black folks are medium-brown, 20% are dark brown and 10% lighter than medium brown (who knows for sure but it's a start). Assuming a 50-50 split among men and women, it's not possible for a 90% endogamy/screwing around rate to exist even if 50% of Black men are passing around 10% of lightskinned women. Is this scenario what you envision as reality?
Do you realize that many of the Black women complaining about lack of attention from Black men are fairskinned or medium-brown? The most rabid, angry Black woman diatribe I have ever heard in my life came from one of my sorority sisters, who is the color of a latte with blond hair and hazel eyes. She was so moved by the "defection" of Black men, as she called it, that she wrote a poem entitled "Inquire Within." To sum it up, her argument was that whatever female phenotype is desired can be found within the A-A population, so outmarriage/dating is unnecessary. This concern that many "true" Black women express is not exclusive to dark brown Black women. It is an ethnic group issue. Colorism/racism doesn't cease to exist for or bypass lightskinned A-As in the real world.
Hanzou wrote:
Even better; If I read an article in a magazine directed towards black females that states that black men seem to prefer women many shades lighter than themselves, and then see a music video on BET where women of seemingly hispanic origin are dancing around coal-black men, and finally I go to the market and see the majority of black men walking hand and hand with women much lighter than themselves, what conclusions do you think I should draw?
There's a lot to unpack there. For one, are you aware that millions of Black men are far from "coal black?" These music videos that you watch...ever come across Jay-Z, T.I., Ne-Yo, Chris Brown? And unless you are talking about Costa Rica or Brazil, these chicks don't look "Hispanic" to me.
Next, in your strolls around the market, how many Black women do you encounter? How many have husbands/boyfriends? How many have children? What are their skin tones? Perhaps you could note your observations and post them here, provided you are willing to pay attention to both sides of the equation.
In both sides of my family, darker woman/lighter man is the norm. The pattern repeats ad nauseum up and down the family tree. Sometimes the contrast is wide sometimes it is barely noticeable. There are exceptions of course. I wonder if you go one step further when seeing a couple with varying skin tones to think about their children. A lightskinned women and a darkskinned man will usually have intermediate, medium-brown offspring. Same with a darkskinned woman and lightskinned man. I imagine that there are more medium-brown A-As than other other type. Perhaps you might assume that your perceptions are not reality.
Hanzou wrote:
Perhaps it is simply a cultural mythology, but that cultural mythology has spawned books by black authors entitled; "Why do black men hate black women?" and "I want what every white woman has: A black man". Which is why I said an argument can be made for this phenomenom, because members within the black community are making an argument in its favor.
Sure. The self-help industry is very much indicative of the various psychological issues that Americans have or think they have. There seem to be more books for women on how to get/keep/get rid of men than any other topic. Ever glanced at Cosmopolitan magazine? Heard of "He's Just Not Into You?" One might conclude after perusing a selection of women-oriented titles that women are fixated on men and make terrible relationship decisions. One could also conclude that pathology sells in our markets, mental health not so much. There's certainly a lot of evidence for that. Where's the other side of the coin? When you rely on your perceptions for truth you miss the bigger picture. That your perception resonates does not make it reality.
Hanzou wrote:
is that statistic again... Yes, upwards of 90% of black men are married to black women. However, which kind of black woman is the true question.
Feel free to provide the stats unless you would have us believe that men are marrying "Hispanic video girls." Do the JOPs denote skin color when they license couples to marry? If so your job will be easy.
Hanzou wrote:
Some black women are fed up, stating that they just can't compete with women who both meet the European standard of beauty, yet still considered to be black women
And these women can't "compete" with European women, who actually do meet their own standard of beauty (sometimes). The problem is the perceived competition not the composition of an ethnic group.
Hanzou wrote:
But hey, I guess she's just whining, right Sagascend?
Yes. Women with self-esteem don't compete with other women and whine about what they don't have. They go and get it. My very darkskinned mother would laugh in her face, and so would her lightskinned and medium brown sisters. They weren't raised to feel inferior to another person, woman or man. They are also pretty damned good-looking too. I have never in my life heard my mother say that she couldn't "get a man" because of her color and luckily she didn't pass on that pathological nonsense to me. In fact, the women in my family seem to have the opposite problem with men, no matter their phenotype.
If black women are dark skin and Caramel complaining about lighter skin black women getting more attention you this is why mulattos and black sneeds to maybe go back to being seprate ethnic groups. That would solve all of the problems of jealousy, anger, etc right there.
And please nobody needs come at me with that silly stuff of wanting sources to prov a point that observations by many on this board have maybe seen in video, movies, mgazines, television, etc.. separation would solve these problems.
Silliness begets silliness.
This argument is silly, actually. The Creole community in Louisiana, as many Creoles have shared on this board, was separate/distinct and still had colorism issues. I would argue that is because the standard for beauty within the community was still Eurocentric.
I suppose that a mulatto relocation to Mars might solve problems for people on the new colony (unless the Eurocentric beauty standard goes with them, and they can block radio/tv signals from Earth), but do you really sincerely believe that any group that does not meet a set standard of beauty in the aggregate is being held back by the label individuals use to describe themselves? Mulattos who would chose to stay on Earth would still have to deal with Eurocentric colorism, as do Afro-Euro people who prefer other labels, unmixed Africans, Indians, Asians etc.
Halle Berry is perfect example here. When surrounded by White people with a Eurocentric standard of beauty, she experienced low self-esteem. She did not call herself White. She did not "feel better" about herself because she called herself "Black." She felt better about herself because she was accepted by Blacks in a racially hostile environment. One could argue that if she had encountered a mulatto community that her self-esteem issues could have also been addressed successfully. She found a sense of belonging and well-being among a group of people. The group label seems secondary to the inclusion they offered to her.
I also wonder why mulattos who make this argument are not more concerned with their in-group pathologies? The concern for Black self-esteem seems misplaced and insincere, quite frankly.
Actually what would really be convincing is some evidence showing the relative proportion of various skin tones within the A-A population, correlated with marriage/dating/procreation rates. You keep saying that Black men don't want darkskinned women (actually you didn't but that is clearly what you meant) so what proportion of the A-A population is comprised of darkskinned people? Let's assume that 70% of Black folks are medium-brown, 20% are dark brown and 10% lighter than medium brown (who knows for sure but it's a start). Assuming a 50-50 split among men and women, it's not possible for a 90% endogamy/screwing around rate to exist even if 50% of Black men are passing around 10% of lightskinned women. Is this scenario what you envision as reality?
I see you and I are thinking on the same lines.
Quote:
Do you realize that many of the Black women complaining about lack of attention from Black men are fairskinned or medium-brown? The most rabid, angry Black woman diatribe I have ever heard in my life came from one of my sorority sisters, who is the color of a latte with blond hair and hazel eyes. She was so moved by the "defection" of Black men, as she called it, that she wrote a poem entitled "Inquire Within." To sum it up, her argument was that whatever female phenotype is desired can be found within the A-A population, so outmarriage/dating is unnecessary. This concern that many "true" Black women express is not exclusive to dark brown Black women. It is an ethnic group issue. Colorism/racism doesn't cease to exist for or bypass lightskinned A-As in the real world.
Add to that perception. People tend to see what the media shows so they assume Lighter skinned women are getting more attention. But if that were true, Lighter skinned women would have a corner market on marriage as there are less Black men than women. All lighter skinned Blacks should be married first, and then the darker ones. As it is a fact that many light skinned Blacks are not married and many dark skinned Blacks are happily married, it is quite obvious that many men, ina a surplus pool of choice, still chose darker skinned women over the lighter ones.
This argument is silly, actually. The Creole community in Louisiana, as many Creoles have shared on this board, was separate/distinct and still had colorism issues. I would argue that is because the standard for beauty within the community was still Eurocentric.
I suppose that a mulatto relocation to Mars might solve problems for people on the new colony (unless the Eurocentric beauty standard goes with them, and they can block radio/tv signals from Earth), but do you really sincerely believe that any group that does not meet a set standard of beauty in the aggregate is being held back by the label individuals use to describe themselves? Mulattos who would chose to stay on Earth would still have to deal with Eurocentric colorism, as do Afro-Euro people who prefer other labels, unmixed Africans, Indians, Asians etc.
Halle Berry is perfect example here. When surrounded by White people with a Eurocentric standard of beauty, she experienced low self-esteem. She did not call herself White. She did not "feel better" about herself because she called herself "Black." She felt better about herself because she was accepted by Blacks in a racially hostile environment. One could argue that if she had encountered a mulatto community that her self-esteem issues could have also been addressed successfully. She found a sense of belonging and well-being among a group of people. The group label seems secondary to the inclusion they offered to her.
I also wonder why mulattos who make this argument are not more concerned with their in-group pathologies? The concern for Black self-esteem seems misplaced and insincere, quite frankly.
Great minds, Sal, great minds. That or we both got the "prove it" gene LOL.
In all seriousness, the marriage/skin tone study would be a cool one....and it would provide some solid answers. One could even look at old photos from past generations and see what the patterns look like over decades.
[color=darkblue]So were so many other 'black' women before her who were dark.
You've probably seen People Mag 50 Most Beautiful people? All these people are always 'famous' 'rich' or rich & famous.
Many are not all that Beautiful, but popularity does it too you as well as having people around you to help you look better than the rest of us.
Quote:
Just by the fact that I had to do a search on who Alek Welk is, tells a lot. How many people even know who she is? Who is she? A model? a Supermodel? Compared to an actress and an musician?[/color]
[color=blue]I really don't see the purpose in this kind of post.
A comparison between a woman of strong African features, with women who have clear intermixed features. Most men would find Berry more appealing than Wek, mainly because the former is closer to Caucasian.
Naomi Campbell is probably considered more attractive on an even wide field than Halle Berry. Concerning Alek Welk just by the fact that she is a model tells you something. Along with the fact that she would stand out even among African Americans.
Would this former miss America be considered equal in beauty with Halley?
[color=darkblue]So were so many other 'black' women before her who were dark.
You've probably seen People Mag 50 Most Beautiful people? All these people are always 'famous' 'rich' or rich & famous.
Many are not all that Beautiful, but popularity does it too you as well as having people around you to help you look better than the rest of us.
Quote:
Just by the fact that I had to do a search on who Alek Welk is, tells a lot. How many people even know who she is? Who is she? A model? a Supermodel? Compared to an actress and an musician?[/color]
[color=blue]I really don't see the purpose in this kind of post.
A comparison between a woman of strong African features, with women who have clear intermixed features. Most men would find Berry more appealing than Wek, mainly because the former is closer to Caucasian.
Naomi Campbell is probably considered more attractive on an even wide field than Halle Berry. Concerning Alek Welk just by the fact that she is a model tells you something. Along with the fact that she would stand out even among African Americans.
Would this former miss America be considered equal in beauty with Halley?
At least two of those pictures are of people with strong admixture.
[color=darkblue]So were so many other 'black' women before her who were dark.
You've probably seen People Mag 50 Most Beautiful people? All these people are always 'famous' 'rich' or rich & famous.
Many are not all that Beautiful, but popularity does it too you as well as having people around you to help you look better than the rest of us.
Quote:
Just by the fact that I had to do a search on who Alek Welk is, tells a lot. How many people even know who she is? Who is she? A model? a Supermodel? Compared to an actress and an musician?[/color]
I really don't see the purpose in this kind of post.
A comparison between a woman of strong African features, with women who have clear intermixed features. Most men would find Berry more appealing than Wek, mainly because the former is closer to Caucasian.
Naomi Campbell is probably considered more attractive on an even wide field than Halle Berry. Concerning Alek Welk just by the fact that she is a model tells you something. Along with the fact that she would stand out even among African Americans.
Would this former miss America be considered equal in beauty with Halley?
At least two of those pictures are of people with strong admixture.
[color=darkblue]I know, and what this arguement comes down to is lighter and darker.
He used 2 very popular women who are light brown to very fair colored and then used a native African darker skinned woman who many have never heard of to back his arguement.
The first woman is Kenya Moore (Ms America) have native ancestry/admixture
the 2nd is acress Cheryl Lee Ralph of caribbean ancestry
the 3rd is world renowned supermodel Naomi Campbell with said Chinese ancestry
I don't know if you have ever seen Alek Welk but she is a model that in my opinion many 'black' americans would not be too familiar with her native African look ( I don't know what ethnic group she belongs too )
I don't know if you have ever seen Alek Welk but she is a model that in my opinion many 'black' americans would not be too familiar with her native African look ( I don't know what ethnic group she belongs too )[/color]
She is Dinka
Compare her to the last miss Tanzania, Flaviana Matata also African
Naomi Campbell has a complexion that's pretty damn common among pure unmixed Sub Saharian Africans, so she's hardly lightskin. Lightskin would be somebody like Tisha Campbell for example. How many pure Nigerians, Ghanians, Congoids, Kenyans, etc do you see with Tisha's complexion. A true lightskin person would stick out if you put them in the middle of a crowd like this for example. A true light complexioned person in the middle of mass darkness always stands out.
Hanzou has a strange definition of "attraction" or "attractiveness," then. All protestations to the contrary, passing on genes is really the only definition of attraction that counts if one wants to argue that some phenotypes are (or look) better than others. Last time I checked, none of our ancestors required wedding rings to gauge their attractiveness to the opposite sex. So the fact that, by and large, Black men choose to marry and procreate with Black women is not only relevant, it presents irrefutable evidence weakening the already weak argument Hanzou is making.
So how do you explain the marriage rates among blacks as compared to whites and other groups? Clearly there is a problem there, so much so that its causing a decline in the black household. Its also fairly obvious that popular black media is having an effect, since black women have been very vocal about their lonely situation for years now.
Who are the most attractive "black" women in America? Halle Berry?
Vanessa Williams?
Tyra Banks?
Beyonce? Alicia Keys? Surprisingly, all women with strong intermixed features. Heck, Vida Guerra was awarded as "most desirable woman" in Black Men magazine. She's not even a black woman.
I didn't know Alicia Keys was singled out as 'one of the most attractive 'black' women in America
Sheryl Lee Ralph, Naomi Campbell(English) Vanessa Bell Callaway Lauryn Hill Gabriel Union
Who determines this? Black men of course.
Quote:
And please post even a shred of evidence to bolster the conclusion that, since many Black men don't marry the Black women that they have sex with, that these same Black men either go on to marry non-Black women or tend to base their marriage decisions on some sort of physical attraction criteria that excludes sexual attraction. Basically, for Hanzou's argument to hold any water, as stated, the following evidence is required:
- Black men who impregnate Black women outside of marriage find non-Black women more attractive, demonstrated by their abandonment of Black women and subsequent marriages with non-Black women.
- Marriage, rather than sexual attraction or successful procreation, is the criterion used to measure female desirability on a physical level.
Do I really need to prove any of that when I can easily find an article like this;
'
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Silliness begets silliness.
