The Study of Racialism

caribj · Suspended Joined: 14 Mar 2007 {Posts: 612 }

[quote="Salsassin]
Economics, not cultural values. So neither. The upper classes are more racist and private business is more racist, and the police turn a blind eye because of corruption.[/quote]

Economics does impact culture and is impacted by culture. It doesnt work in a vacuum. There is a reason why Brazil works differently from teh USA. CULTURE.

It should be no surprise if a poor white Brazilians feels superior to others because they know that their prospects for upward mobility are much better if they are able to obtain an education.

By the way a song is referenced in the MH articles that says that "I can have your love because your color wouldnt "contaminate"" me. Do you imagine that poor whites in carnaval protest the implied racism of that song? How many rich whites are with blacks?

If the upper and upper middle class elites are as all powerful as you state that they are then they have a very strong influence over Brazilian society as it impacts other Brazilians. So using YOUR argument Brazil is a more racist society than is the USA. It is because its the behaviors and values of these elites that determine the socio-economic environment within which others must operate.

Salsassin · SuperWizard Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3515 }

caribj · Suspended Joined: 14 Mar 2007 {Posts: 612 }

[quote="Salsassin]Sorry bub. Poor Whites have very little upward mobility as well.[/quote]

True but when they get it they do better. So given that do you think that they do not feel superior to others so deprived merely because of accident of ancestry in part or whole?

Salsassin its seems quite clear that COLOR is as important as CLASS. So both poor whites and poor blacks/pardos have serious problems BUT as you said in Peru some do get into college. When this happens then the fortunes of the white improves exponentially to the black/pardo as indicated by the gap in earnings that increases with education. Why? There were both poor people lucky to get education. The only difference is COLOR. Brazilian society clearly discriminates on color as much as it does on class.

Salsassin · SuperWizard Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3515 }

caribj · Suspended Joined: 14 Mar 2007 {Posts: 612 }

Salsassin · SuperWizard Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3515 }

caribj · Suspended Joined: 14 Mar 2007 {Posts: 612 }

Salsassin · SuperWizard Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3515 }

Again, specific to the social class of their ancestors. a dark skinned Indian or the son of Afro Americans raised in Peru is still upper class.

caribj · Suspended Joined: 14 Mar 2007 {Posts: 612 }

Salsassin · SuperWizard Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3515 }

caribj · Suspended Joined: 14 Mar 2007 {Posts: 612 }

Salsassin · SuperWizard Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3515 }

[quote="caribj"]
I will not argue with you about your country though I note that while evidence is that education and escape from poverty doesnt reduce colorism issues for blacks/pardos in Brazil (in fact colorism becomes even MORE significant) you havent answered why Peru seems to be different. [quote]
I addressed the claim of why it became more significant in Brazil. In fact, in Brazil there may be a lot more defensive upper classes because the African presence is much higher. In Peru, they are a small minority so there is more ignorance and curiosity. No where near the antagonism there is towards the indigenous people by the rich.

caribj · Suspended Joined: 14 Mar 2007 {Posts: 612 }

[quote="Salsassin] That it is as widespread and deeply negative as you portray it, not more than Native Americans and a lot more enmeshed with classism.
[.[/quote]

Correction. Not how I portrayed. Monica portrayed it.

I have never been to your country so who am I to opine. However Monica, an AfroPeruvian, really didnt portray a pleasing picture. In fact she told us about some girls who were told to paint themselves and burst into tears because they saw for themselves that they are black. This seems to be a deeper problem than mere barriers that prevent upward social mobility. It seems as if they get the impression that they are worth nothing merely for being black.

What I do find interesting is your notion (as I understand it) that once class barriers have been broken through colorism issues are a mere irritation. At the conference that I was at there were activists from Honduras, Panama, Colombia, Venezuela, Uruguay and Brazil in addition to Monica from Peru. Really Peru didnt seem better, and in fact looked a little worse than some of these other nations. Definitely Venezuela and Brazil seemed, based on the presentations, to be further along in addressing the issue of colorism and low self esteem. Panama has a sizeable, mainly West Indian origin black middle class, some of whom have done very well. Indeed I believe that one of their top judges is a black woman.

Salsassin · SuperWizard Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3515 }

caribj · Suspended Joined: 14 Mar 2007 {Posts: 612 }

[quote="Salsassin]
Sure, there are idiots out there. Same as in the US. I also know tons of AfroPeruvians who weren't affected by the racists and had great relationships with the rest of the population.

.[/quote]

Just a point of clarification. Are you calling Monica an idiot because she speaks loudly about racism. Just want to make sure we are on the same page here. She is talk about a systemic problem. Not an odd racist or two.

The fact that you might not hear AfroPeruvians talking about racism doesnt mean that they dont perceive it to occur. In fcat some may perceive that it exists but keep quiet out of fear of being penalized but those videos that you referenced certainly spoke of racism against AfroPeruvians.

I would think that if a problem isnt addressed in one country but is addressed in others (Brazil as an example) eventually it does become worse in the country where the problem is ignored.

Salsassin · SuperWizard Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3515 }