[ I have NEVER heard of a racial killing in South America, for example.
How many racist attacks occur in the USA in 2007? If we are talking about the Jim Crow era agreed but then much has changed since then. 40 years!
What do you think is a bigger problem? The one or two racist attacks in the USA (way out numbred by black on black crime) or the fact that blacks/part blacks in Brazil, and maybe other parts of Latin America, lag even further BEHIND their white peers than do their less educated brethren. In the USA the more educated a black is the closer his earnings are to his white peer group. In LatAm its is the opposite, at least in Brazil. Who do you think is better off relative to white in his society?
The fcat that you have never heard educated AfroPeruvians discuss racism doesnt mean that they dont. Are you implying that Monica is the only one who does? maybe they dont discuss it with you because it has no relevance to the relationship that you have with them.
[ I have NEVER heard of a racial killing in South America, for example.
How many racist attacks occur in the USA in 2007? If we are talking about the Jim Crow era agreed but then much has changed since then. 40 years!
What do you think is a bigger problem? The one or two racist attacks in the USA (way out numbred by black on black crime) or the fact that blacks/part blacks in Brazil, and maybe other parts of Latin America, lag even further BEHIND their white peers than do their less educated brethren. In the USA the more educated a black is the closer his earnings are to his white peer group. In LatAm its is the opposite, at least in Brazil. Who do you think is better off relative to white in his society?
The fcat that you have never heard educated AfroPeruvians discuss racism doesnt mean that they dont. Are you implying that Monica is the only one who does? maybe they dont discuss it with you because it has no relevance to the relationship that you have with them.
One or two racist attacks my ass. Actually more by Blacks than Whites. Which speaks to the repressed anger of Blacks in this country. I bet you Blacks, with all the material comforts in this country live a more stressful life. And considering I am of Afodescent, you err [edited for ad hominem -- FWS]. I discuss it with my family all the time. In fact I discussed it with my very indigenous looking and my very Afrodescent looking cousins this weekend. My Afrodescent cousin couldn't give an opinion because he had never been to that restaurant, but my very dark and indigenous looking cousin had been there quite a few times without an incident.
[ I have NEVER heard of a racial killing in South America, for example.
How many racist attacks occur in the USA in 2007? If we are talking about the Jim Crow era agreed but then much has changed since then. 40 years!
What do you think is a bigger problem? The one or two racist attacks in the USA (way out numbred by black on black crime) or the fact that blacks/part blacks in Brazil, and maybe other parts of Latin America, lag even further BEHIND their white peers than do their less educated brethren. In the USA the more educated a black is the closer his earnings are to his white peer group. In LatAm its is the opposite, at least in Brazil. Who do you think is better off relative to white in his society?
The fcat that you have never heard educated AfroPeruvians discuss racism doesnt mean that they dont. Are you implying that Monica is the only one who does? maybe they dont discuss it with you because it has no relevance to the relationship that you have with them.
One or two racist attacks my ass. Actually more by Blacks than Whites. Which speaks to the repressed anger of Blacks in this country. I bet you Blacks, with all the material comforts in this country live a more stressful life. And considering I am of Afodescent, you err [edited for ad hominem -- FWS]. I discuss it with my family all the time. In fact I discussed it with my very indigenous looking and my very Afrodescent looking cousins this weekend. My Afrodescent cousin couldn't give an opinion because he had never been to that restaurant, but my very dark and indigenous looking cousin had been there quite a few times without an incident.
Why is it that you and Monica present a very different picture of Peru I wonder? Why is it that the people in the two videos that you referenced present a much less benign image than you do. I am not Peruvian so I will defer to those seemingly credible AfroPeruvians who I have heard.
I do hope that you arent classifying robberies of whites by blacks as race crimes. Because if you do Brazil has had loads. What I do know is that racial attacks arent a defining fact of black life in the USA either as victims or as perpetrators. Whereas discrimination of educated and presumably middle class blacks/pardos Brazilians because they lack "good appearance" even when otherwise qualified is a defining fact of being black or pardo in that nation.
Brazil keeps more statistics on its Afrodescendants than do other LatAm nations therefore discrepancies can be more readily uncovered. It will be interesting what the availability of such data would reveal in Peru, and Ecuador.
I bet you Blacks, with all the material comforts in this country live a more stressful life.
That is your opinion. What the statistics in Brazil where they are available reveal is that blacks in the USA get more rewards from education relative to whites than seems to be the case for blacks/pardos in Brazil.
Why is it that you and Monica present a very different picture of Peru I wonder? Why is it that the people in the two videos that you referenced present a much less benign image than you do. I am not Peruvian so I will defer to those seemingly credible AfroPeruvians who I have heard.
Funny, I can quote a thousand posts of how shitty life in the US is in any Black forum. Sure, there are people that are unhappy in Peru. I can quote another non European looking friend:
When I asked him about racism in Peru he responded:
Quote:
En que sentido de racistas, hemos tenido a un serranazo de presidente y a un japonés también, donde estas lo de los racismos, acá cualquiera puede hacer lo
Que sea, sino mira los presidentes que hemos tenido y mira los congresistas que tenemos y hemos tenido, hasta Susy Díaz que es descerebrada ha sido congresista.
Y te han contado de las polladas y de sus discotecas con el perreo, (dale papi) y que tiene que ver Café del Mar??? Es una discoteca muy bonita donde van chicas muy bonitas, si es difícil encontrar gente popular como dices, como en el Roosevelt donde estudiamos, era solamente colegio de pitucos, gente que tenia poder adquisitivo y relaciones, porque entrábamos por relaciones, y me vas a decir que en USA no hay racismo??? Que es contra los negros y ahora contra los hispanos (latinos), de ninguna manera hay una racismo acá en el Perú como lo hay en USA contra casi todo el mundo, negros, latinos, árabes, asiáticos y africanos, hasta contra los mismos gringos ( los famosos rednecks o hillbillies).
When I asked him about Blacks and the University (His father is Chinese and his mother is a a mix of Spanish Indian and Black):
Quote:
Es muy poco el estudio por el poder adquisitivo de la gente afrodescendiente, la única universidad nacional con precios muy bajos es la San Marcos, que te cuesta los estudios al año 100 dólares. Las otras universidades son particulares con precios muy fluctuantes, que pueden ir desde 130 dólares hasta cerca de 1000 dólares mensuales como la U de Lima o UPC o Pacifico, hay leyes en favor de la discriminación pero no se aplican mucho, y hay discotecas que se reservan el derecho de admisión a su local diciendo una infinidad de cosas, como es solo ara invitad0s o es una fiesta privada. A que te refieres con indígena?? cholos, serranos? Ya hay una buena cantidad de universidades en provincia que están creciendo dándole la oportunidad a ese gran grupo de gente que antes no tenia la oportunidad de establecerse en lima y seguir una educación acá en la capital.
When I asked him specifically about Café del Mar:
Quote:
Café del Mar es una discoteca muy bonita y gente como yo y Patulio [another very indigenous looking friend] entra como las huevas, he ido una sola vez hace mas de 1 año y medio atrás y no te podría decir con exactitud que es lo que realmente ocurre, hace tiempo que no salgo a ninguna discoteca y no sé que decidirte, hay y siempre va a existir racismo, ya sea por gente estúpida que tiene plata o porque sean blanquitos, como también hay gente que no es blanquita y también es racista porque ha superado ciertos niveles socioeconómicos y se siente que es mejor que la gente que dejo atrás, y a veces ellos son los mas racistas, es el vivo ejemplo de los cubanos o cualquier latino que trabajara allá en USA Que son residentes y tratan a los emigrantes o visitantes latinos como una basura, y eso me paso con unos salvadoreños del aeropuerto de Los Ángeles, me trataron como una porquería, solo por joder, creo que ese es el racismo al que le debemos de tener mas miedo.
Quote:
I do hope that you arent classifying robberies of whites by blacks as race crimes. Because if you do Brazil has had loads. What I do know is that racial attacks arent a defining fact of black life in the USA either as victims or as perpetrators. Whereas discrimination of educated and presumably middle class blacks/pardos Brazilians because they lack "good appearance" even when otherwise qualified is a defining fact of being black or pardo in that nation.
Nice try, plenty of unprovoked attacks that have nothing to do with robbery. I have been a victim of them myself. Discrimination by the upper classes and their stores does not make a whole nation. Just like these attacks. But One is definitely more violent than the other and the resentment and antagonism that exists here is much higher.
Quote:
Brazil keeps more statistics on its Afrodescendants than do other LatAm nations therefore discrepancies can be more readily uncovered. It will be interesting what the availability of such data would reveal in Peru, and Ecuador.
When you provide it, we'll see.
caribj wrote:
That is your opinion. What the statistics in Brazil where they are available reveal is that blacks in the USA get more rewards from education relative to whites than seems to be the case for blacks/pardos in Brazil.
And yet, AfroAmericans love migrating to Latin America to party. Racism must be killing them. Class level when you are born is more indicative of where you will be when you die. That includes the poor blanquitos they posted in another thread.
Posted: Tue 17 Jul 2007 14:55 Post subject: Re: Upper class Latin Americans
caribj wrote:
Powell wrote:
Haven't you noticed that non-whites in general (whether in the USA or other countries) are far more at ease in expressing their prejudices? A "white" American or European will most likely be silent or feel guilty about his prejudices, but his non-white counterpart (I include Latin Americans in this category) will have no guilt whatsoever.
Those in power have no need to express their racism. They have control over instutions to enforce it. Reason why its the poor whites who get labeled as the racists by rich whites hiding in their exclusive clubs where the only blacks present are the maids and janitors and the occassional "guest".
Powell was referring to whites in general not just wealthy whites (who are presumed to be all racist because they have power), and she is correct, at least as it applies to the U.S. or North America. Many Eastern Europeans can be very open about their racial views (probably because they feel no guilt?). but white people in general in the U.S. usually hold their tongues when discussing race because fear of the charge of racism, which has alot of intimidating power. In fact, one can be punished for uttering opinions about race that, objectively speaking, aren't racist.
Non-whites in the U.S. usually don't hold their tongues because decorum isn't expected of them and they are presumed to be incapable of racism by virtue of being "people of color" and "powerless". Also, many come from countries where racial discourse can be, by our U.S. standards, crude.
caribj wrote:
Now my opinion about Brazil (which might be totally wrong) is that there is no PC movement there at least where race/color is concerned because "blacks"/pardos dont have the ability to openly express their views and to generate white guilt. In the USA nonPC behavior will quickly be picked on. This however isnt evidence that white elites in the USA are less racist simply because they behave more PC.
One can infer from the statement above that generating white guilt is the purpose of any PC movement as far as race is concerned. In Brazil blacks do have the ability to openly express their views on race. Many often do and have done so for quite some time. However, if the purpose of expressing those views (assuming of course that blacks speak in a singular collective voice out there) is to generate guilt among whites and use it as leverage to get what you want in the “community’s” name as is the case in the U.S., then that endeavor will be unsuccessful. Whites, however that’s defined out there, feel no guilt for the situation many people who are black or define themselves as such find themselves in. Actually, many of them are in a similar situation economically and socially. Naturally, Brazil is not a simple biracial (black or white) society which further complicates things. Add to that the fact that there isn’t any cross-class white unity, as there is in the U.S., and one can see how futile it is to guilt trip people who are white or consider themselves white.
Last edited by G-Man on Tue 17 Jul 2007 15:11; edited 1 time in total
[ I have NEVER heard of a racial killing in South America, for example.
Raphael Trujillos' massacre of "Haitians" in the 30s would count, no? But that's Latin America not South America.
Also, I remember a case in Sao Paolo back in the early 90s of a black student or worker who was killed by some neo-Nazi skinheads down there. In general, though, the kind of racial violence the U.S. is world-renowned for (and I don't mean strictly black on white or white on black violence) is absent in South America/Latin America.
[ I have NEVER heard of a racial killing in South America, for example.
Raphael Trujillos' massacre of "Haitians" in the 30s would count, no? But that's Latin America not South America.
Not really. Remember that one of the tests was pronunciation of words with the triller r like Perejil. If it had been racial then it wouldn't have mattered. The look was only used as a quick indicator of who might be Haitian.
Quote:
Also, I remember a case in Sao Paolo back in the early 90s of a black student or worker who was killed by some neo-Nazi skinheads down there. In general, though, the kind of racial violence the U.S. is world-renowned for (and I don't mean strictly black on white or white on black violence) is absent in South America/Latin America.
True, I guess I should have said rarely. I was thinking modern times. Not in any modern times in Peru, that I know off. Although White tourists can be targets for robbery.
I dopnt read Spanish so your quotes from your cousin are lost to me. In any case you sourced a video on AfroPeruvians and it basically dealt with racism in Peru.
Salsassin the Brazilians stats were referenced in the article. It states that the Brazilian census more educated blacks and pardos are the more their incomes lag behind similatrly educated whites. Clearly then COLOR and not class is responsible for this. It cant be class because these folks have already broken through the class barrier by virtue of being university educated, but because of their appearance are evidently forced into less lucrative jobs, hence their lagging earnings relative to equally educated whites.
We are not talking about the USA. Of what relevance is that to this thread especially when we note that Peruvians migrate to the USA. Americans dont migrate to Peru. Those who might think that life is hard here might scream if forced to live in Peru, who knows as peoples views are based on what they know. From the levels of migration from Peru to other countries I cant imagine taht life there is grand either.
Your comment about African Americans visit LatAmerica to party is completely irrelevant, especially when sexual exploitation is sometimes part of all of this. When you tell me that thousands of them are migrating to Latin America because they think life is better then we can talk. In addition to the fcat that, as I told you, when we (African Americans and blacks from the NonHispanic Caribbean) are treated "better" than most local blacks and even some of mixed ancestry. Even you have admitted this. In fact when AfricanAmericans go they are quite often shocked by what they see. Hence the recent barrage of discussion about race in Latin America.
In any case you havent proven that racial attacks, as victims or as perps is as significant a fact of life for US based blacks as discrimination by presumably not having "good appearance" is for many people of color throughout Latin America. You should watch City of Men, a Brazilian comedy about two black boys (thats how they define themselves), and the digs made about the blatant racism that they as blacks face vs the whites who they derisively call playboys. They call it RACISM. I also note that they even have, based on this comedy, a notion of dressing "white" in Rio.
Last edited by caribj on Tue 17 Jul 2007 18:31; edited 2 times in total
[ I have NEVER heard of a racial killing in South America, for example.
Also, I remember a case in Sao Paolo back in the early 90s of a black student or worker who was killed by some neo-Nazi skinheads down there. .
I remember reading about this. 1990s was hardly significant. There was also the governors daughter who was attacked because she entered an elevator which seemed reserved for whites, by custom even if not by law. A similar verbal assault was reported in the MH article and it was not deemed unusual. The race factor was blatant.
[ I have NEVER heard of a racial killing in South America, for example.
Also, I remember a case in Sao Paolo back in the early 90s of a black student or worker who was killed by some neo-Nazi skinheads down there. .
I remember reading about this. 1990s was hardly significant. There was also the governors daughter who was attacked because she entered an elevator which seemed reserved for whites, by custom even if not by law. A similar verbal assault was reported in the MH article and it was not deemed unusual. The race factor was blatant.
Yes you hear of aberrant cases. More in Brazil.
More in the USA. And it is not about Color, but class. Because education does not mean transition of class. Class is a social distinction. If class is involved, only the upper classes have access to the best jobs thus anyone from the lower classes will have less income the higher their education than an upper class person. Now if you can show me that two people of lower class of different colors with the same education have that same disparity then you will have a valid point. But averaging income of an upper class white with a lower class white, when there are a lot more upper class whites, skews the comparison.
More in the USA. And it is not about Color, but class. Because education does not mean transition of class. Class is a social distinction. If class is involved, only the upper classes have access to the best jobs thus anyone from the lower classes will have less income the higher their education than an upper class person. Now if you can show me that two people of lower class of different colors with the same education have that same disparity then you will have a valid point. But averaging income of an upper class white with a lower class white, when there are a lot more upper class whites, skews the comparison.
All of what you say about Brazil in your expanation about why education doesnt close the income gap between blacks/pardos and whites also applies every where in the world. People who are born into wealth or into the upper middle class have more social contacts than those who arent, therefore have a higher return on their investment in education.
Why then does education have a lower return for Brazilian blacks/pardos than it does for African Americans who are better able to scale barriers of racism (colorism in Brazil) by virtue of being more educated? Arent whites similarly advantaged in the USA in terms of being disproportionately affluent.
In fact given the greater barriesr to upward mobility in Brazil one would think that the descendants of 19th century Euro migration in Brazil would be worse off than similar people in the USA, so more should have remained in poverty? More whites in the USA should be in the upper middle class than should be the case in Brazil. In fact the upper middle class can be expected to be larger in the USA than in Brazil, skewing the white sample moreso than it will in Brazil with its legions of poor whites.
So we should observe similar phenomenon in each society. Yet we dont. In any case no one will argue against the legacy of racism in the USA past and present so this is another reason why, if color is only a minor irritant in Brazil it should easily be offset by education. Much moreso then in the USA where blatant hostilities of race have only recently disappeared in polite society.
Remember that the American black, being more socially segregated from whites than are blacks and pardos in Brazil from whites, should be more disadvantaged in being part of the white social network than is the case in Brazil. Yet American blacks gain more from education than do pardos and blacks in Brazil.
It appears, despite this greater social segregation in the USA, that education in the USA reduces the income gap yet it doesnt in Brazil. Why not in Brazil where less segregation should mean that blacks/pardos are less socially isolated from whites and therefore have more information about employment opportunities and more people to provide references as well.
Bottom line is if your argument was valid the Brazilian black/pardo should be advantaged relative to American blacks in terms of being able to use education to reduce teh income gap. We see the opposite. Clearly color/appearance in Brazil has impacted the success of educated blacks/pardos.
I will advance a notion of how I think it works in Brazil based on what I saw. Two people in Brazil one white and one black (as defined in Brazil). The white kid finishes school and might get a job as a bank teller. The black kid (as defined in Brazil) will have a harder time finding such employment. The white kid is therefore in the system, even if at a low level, but he is able to learn how it works, become part of a social network, and eventually drag himself up. Its much harder for the black kid to do this. Similar education doesnt seem to result in similar outcomes because of the intervention of colorism.
In the City of Men comedy a joke was made about this when two blacks (as defined in Brazil) boys went for a job. The person reminded them that they needed to have good appearance. When the boys asked for an explanation they were told taht they had a bit too much melanin. While I know its a farcical comedy and discrimination will almost never be so obvious it does indicate the notion that at least some in Brazil have towards colorism and how it impacts nonwhites.
Sorry bub. Even with full discrimination during Jim Crow, Blacks were multi classed so the disparity wouldn't be the same. Again, classism is the problem in Brazil.
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