jagirl32 wrote:
ok what i meant was yes its ovious that she's mixed but not to the extent of some of the really racially mixed people i have seen (the ones who look more like another race than black)and known. she looks, to me like a regular light light skinned black
MP: In my personal opinion I feel one of the reasons many so called light skin blacks are seldom mistaken for other ethnic and racial groups is -- because they for many generations the mulattoes have been living and marrying blacks because of the ODR forcing them to live among blacks. This causes one to pick up more black ancestry in ones genes. The result they are seldom mistaken for other ethnic groups.
No that has nothing to do with it, A person is mixed period, you don't have to look unmistakenly like some other ethnic group to be mixed. 2 mulattoes can have children and those children can mixed with other mulattoes and most likely the family will still look part black part white. If you put Lenny Kravitz Boris Kodjoe Rachael True Mariah Carey / Vanesse Williams Jada Pinkett Sinbad Michael Ealy all on an island, generations later the kids will still look like the above mentioned. They will still have very visible features from Africa & Europe.
The ODR did not force mulattoes to live among blacks. And the slave quarters don't count.
There is a rapper name Eric Sermon he is dark skinned and has green eyes(natural) no one is going to tell me that isn't exotic, that he doesn't look mixed nor that the eye color isn't obviously from Europe or white admixture.
Posted: Wed 10 Oct 2007 14:01 Post subject: Re: ok ok
gemini072 wrote:
jagirl32 wrote:
ok what i meant was yes its ovious that she's mixed but not to the extent of some of the really racially mixed people i have seen (the ones who look more like another race than black)and known. she looks, to me like a regular light light skinned black
lol That is so twisted. Mixed is mixed, If someone looks white, they don't look (really racially mixed) this girl and her mom look really racially mixed because you see combinations of different ethnic groups. The problem is we tend to be so racialized in our thinking that it now takes someone not even looking like they have african features to be mixed.
Wow, that's a good point. And scary. It reminds me of something that I saw when I was in college at Xavier University of Louisiana, an HBCU. There was this one guy who went to Xavier who had the hair color, eye color, and skin color of Vanessa Williams. Well, one day, homeboy sure was walking around campus with a t-shirt on that said 100% African!!! At the time I thought that was just so odd and yet funny. Now that I have interacted online with a broad range of people mixed with black and white ancestries, I realize that his situation might have been more sad than odd. You see, I have come to realize that some of these "light light skinned blacks" are actually taught by their family that they are black only with nothing else in them, which is absurd, quite frankly, if your hair is sandy blonde and you have blue eyes.
No that has nothing to do with it, A person is mixed period, you don't have to look unmistakenly like some other ethnic group to be mixed. 2 mulattoes can have children and those children can mixed with other mulattoes and most likely the family will still look part black part white. If you put Lenny Kravitz Boris Kodjoe Rachael True Mariah Carey / Vanesse Williams Jada Pinkett Sinbad Michael Ealy all on an island, generations later the kids will still look like the above mentioned. They will still have very visible features from Africa & Europe.
The ODR did not force mulattoes to live among blacks. And the slave quarters don't count.
There is a rapper named Eric Sermon he is dark skinned and has green eyes(natural) no one is going to tell me that isn't exotic, that he doesn't look mixed nor that the eye color isn't obviously from Europe or white admixture.
You're so right to emphasize the multigenerational view of this issue. So many Blacks are mixed because of the genetic diversity within the population, definitely brought about in large part by the ODR. But to negate the cultural and kinship ties that resulted from the color line/ODR is not only insulting, but quite disingenous. Whenever a poster attempts to liken the participation of visibly mixed Blacks in their culture (not Creoles or folks with their own cultures, but African American/Negro/Colored/BLACK people) as "hostages" it is unbelievably dishonest. I could see if someone was applying a Latin definition of identity, which is based on appearance rather than ancestry. It is one thing to say that there are Black mulattos, blancos, pardos, zambos etc. etc. within the population and quite another to say that these people who self-identify as Blacks, who were raised in Black families and partake in Black culture are frauds, delusional, hostages, or victims. It is one thing to offer an alternative choice in self-identification to mixed people and quite another to do so by denying that kinship bonds over generations have blurred the lines between the Blacks folks want to claim and the Blacks they'd rather not. I can see such activists all over my fairskinned, green eyed uncle like a cheap suit and looking at my more African looking father and saying "eh, no thanks." Makes you wonder what the agenda really is. My sense is that many wish to create a group based on visbile Afro-Euro mixture, with certain phenotypes of mixed individuals becoming highly desirable and others best relegated to "blackness."
Posted: Wed 10 Oct 2007 14:38 Post subject: Re: ok ok
OTHER wrote:
gemini072 wrote:
jagirl32 wrote:
ok what i meant was yes its ovious that she's mixed but not to the extent of some of the really racially mixed people i have seen (the ones who look more like another race than black)and known. she looks, to me like a regular light light skinned black
lol That is so twisted. Mixed is mixed, If someone looks white, they don't look (really racially mixed) this girl and her mom look really racially mixed because you see combinations of different ethnic groups. The problem is we tend to be so racialized in our thinking that it now takes someone not even looking like they have african features to be mixed.
Wow, that's a good point. And scary. It reminds me of something that I saw when I was in college at Xavier University of Louisiana, an HBCU. There was this one guy who went to Xavier who had the hair color, eye color, and skin color of Vanessa Williams. Well, one day, homeboy sure was walking around campus with a t-shirt on that said 100% African!!! At the time I thought that was just so odd and yet funny. Now that I have interacted online with a broad range of people mixed with black and white ancestries, I realize that his situation might have been more sad than odd. You see, I have come to realize that some of these "light light skinned blacks" are actually taught by their family that they are black only with nothing else in them, which is absurd, quite frankly, if your hair is sandy blonde and you have blue eyes.
I know, that is one of the most stupid 'phases' I've ever heard. But it depends, that Afrocentric thing that took place in the early 90's was a youth thing. I think most of the parents of these people probably gave them some history on their ethnic background.
No that has nothing to do with it, A person is mixed period, you don't have to look unmistakenly like some other ethnic group to be mixed. 2 mulattoes can have children and those children can mixed with other mulattoes and most likely the family will still look part black part white. If you put Lenny Kravitz Boris Kodjoe Rachael True Mariah Carey / Vanesse Williams Jada Pinkett Sinbad Michael Ealy all on an island, generations later the kids will still look like the above mentioned. They will still have very visible features from Africa & Europe.
The ODR did not force mulattoes to live among blacks. And the slave quarters don't count.
There is a rapper named Eric Sermon he is dark skinned and has green eyes(natural) no one is going to tell me that isn't exotic, that he doesn't look mixed nor that the eye color isn't obviously from Europe or white admixture.
You're so right to emphasize the multigenerational view of this issue. So many Blacks are mixed because of the genetic diversity within the population, definitely brought about in large part by the ODR. But to negate the cultural and kinship ties that resulted from the color line/ODR is not only insulting, but quite disingenous. Whenever a poster attempts to liken the participation of visibly mixed Blacks in their culture (not Creoles or folks with their own cultures, but African American/Negro/Colored/BLACK people) as "hostages" it is unbelievably dishonest. I could see if someone was applying a Latin definition of identity, which is based on appearance rather than ancestry. It is one thing to say that there are Black mulattos, blancos, pardos, zambos etc. etc. within the population and quite another to say that these people who self-identify as Blacks, who were raised in Black families and partake in Black culture are frauds, delusional, hostages, or victims. It is one thing to offer an alternative choice in self-identification to mixed people and quite another to do so by denying that kinship bonds over generations have blurred the lines between the Blacks folks want to claim and the Blacks they'd rather not. I can see such activists all over my fairskinned, green eyed uncle like a cheap suit and looking at my more African looking father and saying "eh, no thanks." Makes you wonder what the agenda really is. My sense is that many wish to create a group based on visbile Afro-Euro mixture, with certain phenotypes of mixed individuals becoming highly desirable and others best relegated to "blackness."
I totally agree, We aren't saying that there shouldn't been an option, there should be, the reality of interracial relationships says their should, the twistedness of racial concepts says there should.
Yes the ODR played a part in it, but nature did too, the formulation of culture and subcultures, cook and music and so many other things.
My parents gave me and my brothers that option before we knew what black & white meant. It was hand down through books on the people we were mixed with, it was given in middle names, we drove to it in visits to the south, we knew our French/Native great grandparents we know our biracial grandfathers. We told by both parents you have this and that in you.
I see that too at times, in certain groups, there is a disdain for African features and the color complex is yet alive in this new identity that I find hard to be a part of, because of. Mixed People running from visible mixture. Non african admixture still being prized over african genetics. Colorism still at work.
Posted: Wed 10 Oct 2007 15:33 Post subject: Re: ok ok
gemini072 wrote:
OTHER wrote:
gemini072 wrote:
jagirl32 wrote:
ok what i meant was yes its ovious that she's mixed but not to the extent of some of the really racially mixed people i have seen (the ones who look more like another race than black)and known. she looks, to me like a regular light light skinned black
lol That is so twisted. Mixed is mixed, If someone looks white, they don't look (really racially mixed) this girl and her mom look really racially mixed because you see combinations of different ethnic groups. The problem is we tend to be so racialized in our thinking that it now takes someone not even looking like they have african features to be mixed.
Wow, that's a good point. And scary. It reminds me of something that I saw when I was in college at Xavier University of Louisiana, an HBCU. There was this one guy who went to Xavier who had the hair color, eye color, and skin color of Vanessa Williams. Well, one day, homeboy sure was walking around campus with a t-shirt on that said 100% African!!! At the time I thought that was just so odd and yet funny. Now that I have interacted online with a broad range of people mixed with black and white ancestries, I realize that his situation might have been more sad than odd. You see, I have come to realize that some of these "light light skinned blacks" are actually taught by their family that they are black only with nothing else in them, which is absurd, quite frankly, if your hair is sandy blonde and you have blue eyes.
I know, that is one of the most stupid 'phases' I've ever heard. But it depends, that Afrocentric thing that took place in the early 90's was a youth thing. I think most of the parents of these people probably gave them some history on their ethnic background.
I know what you're saying, and it was the early 90's, but there really are some light-skinned black families who consider themselves to be un-mixed. It's a shame how much slavery and the blatant, institutionalized racism that followed it, have served to tear apart what I like to think of as "the greater colored community".
Joined: 04 Oct 2006 {Posts: 228 } Location: CT/U.S.A.
Posted: Wed 10 Oct 2007 15:40 Post subject:
sagascend
Your post is so true! It needs to be read over and over again by some of these people who refuse to see what you have explained so eloquently in your post. It resonates what lighter complected "Blacks", who are proud of their African ancestry and unafraid to show it in an unapologetic way, have been expressing for decades.
OTHER wrote:
Quote:
It reminds me of something that I saw when I was in college at Xavier University of Louisiana, an HBCU. There was this one guy who went to Xavier who had the hair color, eye color, and skin color of Vanessa Williams. Well, one day, homeboy sure was walking around campus with a t-shirt on that said 100% African!!!
That was more of a political/idealogical statement being made and that is nothing new or strange. In america people who look like that have traditionally been categorized as "Black" (at least in our lifetime) and have faced many of the same discrimination and Racism that darker complected "Blacks" have faced just because, although they are "light" and have a certain phenotype, they have "Black blood"/African ancestry and in America, that's usually all it takes for one to embrace everything Afrocentric or African inspired.
I have a really good friend that I met while attending Prairie View A&M University (also an HBCU in the South) who is very light skinned and also very pro-"Black". He's from Missouri and told me horrible stories of the Racism he and his family faced from "White" people while growing up in the Ozark Mountains. Yes, he is defnitely multigenerationally "mixed" but was still reminded on a daily basis that he and his family were "Niggers", regardless of his phenotype/skin color.
gemini072 wrote:
Quote:
I know, that is one of the most stupid 'phases' I've ever heard. But it depends, that Afrocentric thing that took place in the early 90's was a youth thing. I think most of the parents of these people probably gave them some history on their ethnic background.
What has to be remembered here is a lot of "African-Americans" don't know about the specifics of all of their ancestry because of obvious reasons... Slavery and Jim Crow. Most "African-Americans"/"Black" Americans know they have other ancestries but thsi wasn't talked about that often because of painful memories held by the Grandparents (who are the "gate keepers" of most people's family history) of the days when their "White" or non-"Black" ancestors/family disowned or totally ignored them growing up during Jim Crow.
It (acknowleging "White" bgloodlines) would not change the reality of being seen as "Black" in America so what was/is taught to most "Blacks" growing up in a nation that has traditionally "hated" their kind is survival tactics on how to live in a world that already sees them as inferior; and trying to be the best you can be without "selling out" the legacy of their ancestors. Nowadays, it's completely different. Those "survival tactics" aren't being taught anymore because now everybody wants to believe that everyone is treated equally because Jim Crow is over and "Blacks" "won" their Civil Rights battle so everything should be "hunky dory".
Everybody [should] know that "White Supremacy" is still being practiced here in America but now it isn't overt, it's covert. IMHO, if it isn't "White Supremacy", then a great amount of non-"White" immigrants and non-"White" (in the WASP sense of the word) people would not have to go to such great lengths to "become White" (socially, politically, etc. For lack of a better term, they would/could "pass" for who they really are, so to speak) each year just to "fit in", to minimize discrimination/Racism based on cultural/racial "allegiance".
Gemini072 said: lol That is so twisted. Mixed is mixed, If someone looks white, they don't look (really racially mixed) this girl and her mom look really racially mixed because you see combinations of different ethnic groups. The problem is we tend to be so racialized in our thinking that it now takes someone not even looking like they have african features to be mixed.
MP: Yes that is correct, that it is, almost to the point that in some cases it is that you have to show no visible black ancestry to avoid being labeled black. Many people people are mixed but showing African features or ancestry can cause some people to simply say you are not mixed just black. It is excessive racialized thinking.
It reminds me of something that I saw when I was in college at Xavier University of Louisiana, an HBCU. There was this one guy who went to Xavier who had the hair color, eye color, and skin color of Vanessa Williams. Well, one day, homeboy sure was walking around campus with a t-shirt on that said 100% African!!!
That was more of a political/idealogical statement being made and that is nothing new or strange. In america people who look like that have traditionally been categorized as "Black" (at least in our lifetime) and have faced many of the same discrimination and Racism that darker complected "Blacks" have faced just because, although they are "light" and have a certain phenotype, they have "Black blood"/African ancestry and in America, that's usually all it takes for one to embrace everything Afrocentric or African inspired.
I have a really good friend that I met while attending Prairie View A&M University (also an HBCU in the South) who is very light skinned and also very pro-"Black". He's from Missouri and told me horrible stories of the Racism he and his family faced from "White" people while growing up in the Ozark Mountains. Yes, he is defnitely multigenerationally "mixed" but was still reminded on a daily basis that he and his family were "Niggers", regardless of his phenotype/skin color.
Yes, but there's a big difference between identifying as black and wearing a t-shirt that says 100% African, don't you think? I mean, I fully embrace my blackness, be it through my grandfather who descended from African slaves in the United States or my grandmother who is Jamaican and Bajan, but I'm not gonna walk around with a 100% African or 100% Jamaican t-shirt on, see what I'm saying?
Gemini072 said: lol That is so twisted. Mixed is mixed, If someone looks white, they don't look (really racially mixed) this girl and her mom look really racially mixed because you see combinations of different ethnic groups. The problem is we tend to be so racialized in our thinking that it now takes someone not even looking like they have african features to be mixed.
MP: Yes that is correct, that it is, almost to the point that in some cases it is that you have to show no visible black ancestry to avoid being labeled black. Many people people are mixed but showing African features or ancestry can cause some people to simply say you are not mixed just black. It is excessive racialized thinking.
I think I might have mentioned this to you before over at mulatto.org, Prince, but I will reiterate. It is so important that you understand that when some (possibly most) black people identify us mulattos as black, it is not out of jealousy or hatred or to hold us down. They genuinely accept us as their own. As un-black as I tend to look in most people's eyes, in New Orleans it seemed like MANY of the black people I encountered, whether at school, at work, or at church, just accepted me as their own. Now, New Orleans has a unique history, so of course they KNEW I was mixed by looking at me, but also identified me as black. It doesn't mean they were ramming blackness down my throat. Many of them knew that I consider myself mixed/black&white. It just wasn't an issue.
One thing I have learned both from living in different parts of the country and from interacting with various types of black/white mixies in real life and online is that our experiences tend to vary based on our appearance and our location within the U.S. If you, so far, have ONLY experienced negativity between you and blacks where you live, then I HIGHLY recommend relocating to another part of the country, even if it's just for a year or two. It's amazing how different things are from the East Coast to the West Coast to Down South to the Mid-West, etc.
you all are going on like all Africans are the colour of tar and must have dark brown eyes and black hair. Have you ever come across Ibo from Nigeria?
Are you saying that Spike's wife couldn't pass for one of them?
Eric Sermon of the EPMD fame has green eyes. Is anyone going to tell me he looks like he is mulatto? Or has recent European ancestors? I'm sorry but I am not seeing a lot of Europe in his features.
People tend to go on and on about mixing of ethnic groups but doesn't Africa possess the greatest number of ethnic groups? Most American (North/Central & South) American blacks are just that: An amalgamation of different African ethnic groups with a dose of native American and European thrown into the mix. If they are of West Indian decent you might want to add some Chinese, East Indian and "Syrian" (catch all phrase for Arab) for good measure. So your average black person will have some features that are not typically African. That is also the reason that most Africans can tell a non-African black by looks alone. We tend to look exotic to them.
But that does not make us any less black. IMHO of course
Of course there is diversity on the continent of Africa but, no, I do not think that Tonya Lewis Lee could be mistaken for Ibo or any other African people. Are you overlooking her light eyes and golden brown hair? One might assume her hair was dyed, but her young daughter's red hair color would prove one wrong. Do you really think that ANYONE from Africa would mistake her for an unmixed African?
In terms of skin and hair colour she could pass for an Ibo or a Kenyan or even Central African Republic. I bet if you sat down and looked at the various ethnic groups you could find many people she resembles.
My point is you cannot look at a person and categorically state that that person is mulatto or has a recent mixed background. Let me give you an example: I have an ex g/f who is from Colombia. She has long curly hair that never needs to be permed and has been mistaken for Ethiopian, Indian, Tamil, etc. She told me that her maternal great grandmother was indigenous and she supposed looks like her. Yet her mother and grandmother look like "regular" black people but obviously their percentage of "African blood" is lower than hers. Many on this board after one look would refer to her as a mulatto or whatever when she is not while ignoring her mestizo grandmother (seated).
For the record, I never said Spike Lee's wife was "mulatto" nor did I say she had any recent mixing in her family. I really do not know. But, it truly boggles me that you are looking at the same woman as the rest of us and still somehow think that she COULD be 100% African???
Joined: 03 Jun 2005 {Posts: 274 } Location: California
Posted: Thu 11 Oct 2007 00:46 Post subject: Re: ok ok
OTHER wrote:
gemini072 wrote:
jagirl32 wrote:
ok what i meant was yes its ovious that she's mixed but not to the extent of some of the really racially mixed people i have seen (the ones who look more like another race than black)and known. she looks, to me like a regular light light skinned black
lol That is so twisted. Mixed is mixed, If someone looks white, they don't look (really racially mixed) this girl and her mom look really racially mixed because you see combinations of different ethnic groups. The problem is we tend to be so racialized in our thinking that it now takes someone not even looking like they have african features to be mixed.
Wow, that's a good point. And scary. It reminds me of something that I saw when I was in college at Xavier University of Louisiana, an HBCU. There was this one guy who went to Xavier who had the hair color, eye color, and skin color of Vanessa Williams. Well, one day, homeboy sure was walking around campus with a t-shirt on that said 100% African!!! At the time I thought that was just so odd and yet funny. Now that I have interacted online with a broad range of people mixed with black and white ancestries, I realize that his situation might have been more sad than odd. You see, I have come to realize that some of these "light light skinned blacks" are actually taught by their family that they are black only with nothing else in them, which is absurd, quite frankly, if your hair is sandy blonde and you have blue eyes.
That may be true, but also how much more does pressure to identify as "black" from "outsiders" (non-MGM's) have to do with a youth wearing such a shirt?
Peer pressure and the want/ need to fit in often trumps any family teachings/ beliefs.
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 {Posts: 300 } Location: Chatsworth, CA
Posted: Thu 11 Oct 2007 01:29 Post subject:
[quote="anonymouse"]you all are going on like all Africans are the colour of tar and must have dark brown eyes and black hair. Have you ever come across Ibo from Nigeria?
Are you sure those women are Ibo? They look like Fulani (Fulbe, Wodabe) to me.
I've never in my life seen an Ibo who looked like those women, hence the question. I have seen numerous Fulani women with those looks though.
My guess is that the photo was miscaptioned or the subjects misidentified.
I know I sound just like the people I always criticize for eyeballing. I just find it really hard to believe that these women are Igbo.
For the record, I never said Spike Lee's wife was "mulatto" nor did I say she had any recent mixing in her family. I really do not know. But, it truly boggles me that you are looking at the same woman as the rest of us and still somehow think that she COULD be 100% African???
In my example from above it took 3 generations for some obvious physical traits to reemerge yet by definition she is not biracial or mestizo but mostly African. You cannot go by looks or features alone. And for the record after Brazil & the US, Colombia has the 3rd largest concentration of blacks in this hemisphere.
But my point is no black person in the Americas (recent immigrants excluded) is 100% African so everyone is going to have features that may harkon back to a distant ancestor from another ethnic or raical (or both) background. Does it make them any less "black"? No. Just adds to the flavour of their "blackness"
Posted: Thu 11 Oct 2007 02:25 Post subject: Re: ok ok
femmedecouleur wrote:
OTHER wrote:
gemini072 wrote:
jagirl32 wrote:
ok what i meant was yes its ovious that she's mixed but not to the extent of some of the really racially mixed people i have seen (the ones who look more like another race than black)and known. she looks, to me like a regular light light skinned black
lol That is so twisted. Mixed is mixed, If someone looks white, they don't look (really racially mixed) this girl and her mom look really racially mixed because you see combinations of different ethnic groups. The problem is we tend to be so racialized in our thinking that it now takes someone not even looking like they have african features to be mixed.
Wow, that's a good point. And scary. It reminds me of something that I saw when I was in college at Xavier University of Louisiana, an HBCU. There was this one guy who went to Xavier who had the hair color, eye color, and skin color of Vanessa Williams. Well, one day, homeboy sure was walking around campus with a t-shirt on that said 100% African!!! At the time I thought that was just so odd and yet funny. Now that I have interacted online with a broad range of people mixed with black and white ancestries, I realize that his situation might have been more sad than odd. You see, I have come to realize that some of these "light light skinned blacks" are actually taught by their family that they are black only with nothing else in them, which is absurd, quite frankly, if your hair is sandy blonde and you have blue eyes.
That may be true, but also how much more does pressure to identify as "black" from "outsiders" (non-MGM's) have to do with a youth wearing such a shirt?
Peer pressure and the want/ need to fit in often trumps any family teachings/ beliefs.
Yes, that is a very good point. I had not thought of that. The thing is, even though Xavier is an HBCU, it is in New Orleans, which means lotsa Creoles, plus there were mixed out-of-towners like me who freely discussed the fact that we were mixed. So, I honestly never even considered peer pressure as a factor. But, I'm sure it could have been, now that you mention it.
For the record, I never said Spike Lee's wife was "mulatto" nor did I say she had any recent mixing in her family. I really do not know. But, it truly boggles me that you are looking at the same woman as the rest of us and still somehow think that she COULD be 100% African???
In my example from above it took 3 generations for some obvious physical traits to reemerge yet by definition she is not biracial or mestizo but mostly African. You cannot go by looks or features alone. And for the record after Brazil & the US, Colombia has the 3rd largest concentration of blacks in this hemisphere.
But my point is no black person in the Americas (recent immigrants excluded) is 100% African so everyone is going to have features that may harkon back to a distant ancestor from another ethnic or raical (or both) background. Does it make them any less "black"? No. Just adds to the flavour of their "blackness"
Your confusing Black with African. Black is not a biological term, it's a social/political/national thing. It has very little to do with actual biological traits.
When I think 100% African I'm thinking not mixed with any other (Euro,NativeAmerican,Asian) group. If someone said on a TShirt [100% Black] I wouldn't have any qualms about it.
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At the time I thought that was just so odd and yet funny. Now that I have interacted online with a broad range of people mixed with black and white ancestries, I realize that his situation might have been more sad than odd. You see, I have come to realize that some of these "light light skinned blacks" are actually taught by their family that they are black only with nothing else in them, which is absurd, quite frankly, if your hair is sandy blonde and you have blue eyes. 
