The term black here will often mean African American it could change depending on the location mentioned.
Melani 23 wrote: I agree with this - basically, you cannot separate a family/siblings by saying some are mixed and others (dark) are unmixed. Due to slavery, ODR, etc AAs/Black Americans come in a variety of shades and often all in the same family. Despite looks, most of these people share the same habits, culture, identity, language, etc. Futhermore, many, if not most Americans are 'mixed' so 'Mixed', in a racial sense, IMO, in our American culture is meaningless (nice trivia, etc.)
MP: I am just saying this, let people choose their self identity, and let them live their lives. Many immigrants have come to America and they changed culturally into the American culture -- thus leaving their old culture behind, so let mulattoes whom choose to change their previous identity have the right to change it. You can always change your culture many immigrants do it all the time when they arrive in America. Also many Americans whom are not black imitate some aspects of what would be considered black culture by others. Therefore, this is a type of change but yet it is not alright for a mulatto to change his or her self identity or culture? This is America you have the freedom to choose.
Melani 23 wrote:That is why my opinion is that offical/legal 'mixedness' as a separate non-Black status/cateogory be reserved for RECENT mixes only and for those who do not look part-Black. The Heather Locklear's, Wentworth Miller's, Carol Channings, etc.Most bi-racials will at least acknowledge their African/Black parent/ancestry and for most they don't even have to - it is obvious via eyeballing. In my experience, SSA's would NEVER claim these people (White/Hispanic Quads) like Black Amercans can 'justifabily' claim mulattoes BY CULTURE (and 1 or 2 features).
MP: Wait a minute, it is mainly because of the octoroons and quadroons looking mulattoes that the legalized by way of ODR was invented in the first place. The theory of invisible blackness started with them (octoroons and quadroons) being accused of having invisible blackness. So you want it for recent mixes only, and the recent mixes must not look part black. So Halle Berry, Lenny Kraviz, Lisa Bonet, Rae Dawn Chong, some of certain grandparents granda kids, and many others should be sent to the black race that is what you are saying. And, it is because of them having visible black ancestry.
You are pushing the white supremacist doctrine of supporting the ODR against an innocent group of people. Also, there are people who are born bi racial and one child comes out totally white looking and the second child comes out with visible black ancestry but still look mixed. So the second child should
be sent to the black race and labeled black.
They should then deny each other as brothers having a white parent and one black parent because they look different in phenotype? They both are raised in white culture too. Blacks claiming mulattoes by culture well not all mulattoes are raised in black culture, and not all blacks are raised in black culture. Some blacks and mulattoes are raised among whites and in white culture, so what do you have to say about that? What do we do with all of those mulattoes and blacks whom are raised in white culture and what do we call them? As for one or two feature making you black many people have one or two features that are the result of sub Saharan Africa. I heard of blacks trying to get people from Cape Verde to identify as black (African American), certain African American one droppists have even tried to get Puerto Ricans and Dominicans to call themselves black meaning African American and it is all because of this ODR that blacks Americans push.
The ODR is a problem not just for mulattoes but even for people who come from other countries but these people have some visible black ancestry. They don't want to be labeled African American black and claimed by blacks and they don't want their kids claimed as African American black either.
Melani 23 wrote: Most bi-racials will at least acknowledge their African/Black parent/ancestry and for most they don't even have to - it is obvious via eyeballing. In my experience, SSA's would NEVER claim these people (White/Hispanic Quads) like Black Amercans can 'justifabily' claim mulattoes BY CULTURE (and 1 or 2 features).
MP: From my experience most black Sub Saharan Africans would not even claim a Vanessa Williams as black, nor Terrence Howard, nor El Debarge and many other mulattoes in America who have yellow skin, reddish yellow, brownish yellow, and whitish skin. Many of the mulattoes who are of this complexion if they were in Africa would not even be considered black they would called by another name that would differentiate them from blacks. I have met many blacks from Africa and they have told me they have no ODR in their countries. In South Africa the mulattoes and mixed are called coulreds, and many of them have visible black ancestry. What do you mean by justifiable in quotation marks? Please explain what do mean by Justifiable and one or two features? I have seen blacks in public point out a white person and said the person is Jewish because they have hair that is kinda like blacks, well let say that is true, so they so black ancestry but how African Americans Americans who say this don't walk up constantly, and put the ODR on the Jews? But yet they feel alright trying to ODR the Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, blacks from Caribbean islands, Brazilians, etc etc.
Melani 23 wrote: Like Black Amercans can 'justifabily' claim mulattoes BY CULTURE (and 1 or 2 features).
MP: What do you mean by CULTURE and what do you mean by one or two features? Many people whom are from other ethnic and racial groups have one or two features that are the result of SSA mixture. Certain Somaons, Tongans, and Fiji Islanders sometimes get the ODR put on them by blacks and other ethnic groups whom think these people are light skin blacks and in case of Fiji islanders just black. I have witnessed this. Like I said not all blacks and Mulattoes are raised in black culture some are raised in white culture and they are not all bi racials, and some are bi racials. Narrowing it down to one or two features is silly and ridiculous it shows what Mr. Frank Sweet refers to as the pathology of the ODR. Why should people have to submit to this type of racism (ODR)that is pushed by black Americans and their allies? If whites had not went after the Octoroon and Quadroon looking mulattoes the ODR may have never become Legal by way of LAW during the Jim Crow time period.
What is black culture? Folklore, music, and dancing because many things that blacks have come from white American culture and white American culture inherited a lot from white European culture. So So what do you mean by black culture please define it?
Anatole Broyard had two sisters Lorraine was the oldest of the three kids and Anatole was second and Shirley was the youngest. Lorraine and Anatole looked totally white they have white phenotypes, but Shirley showed visible signs of black ancestry and could not pass for white. Anatole Broyard said that his sister Shirley was darker than him. So Lorraine and Anatole both looked white, so Melani23 what do you do about a situation were two have white phenotypes and one has a mixed race phenotype that shows some black ancestry?
Melani 23 wrote: As a 'mulatto' I claim being biracial, but it is obvious I have recent SSA ancestry, so that puts me in the 'Black' label for many American people. And for those who cannot tell, if asked, I tell them. And no, not all 'Whites' et al. are racist, some have even pushed me to call myself mixed/non-Black, but I am part of AAs culturally.
MP: This statement comes across to me as too vague because you can recent black ancestry and look totally white like Wentworth Miller. Wentworth Miller has a black Father (African American) and white mother, but Wentworth has a white phenotype, and he shows no visible signs of black ancestry. So having recent black ancestry can be visible or invisible so what do mean by your statement.
From personal experience, if many people can not tell if you have recent or distance black ancestry, it is because your black ancestry is not that visible or totally invisible to the beholders. And often if whites encourages one to claim mixed and non black it is because the black ancestry is not visible or so faint that one looks a minimum like a quadroon or can pass for some other racial group or ethnic group. Why would certain whites encourage a few and not many other mulattoes whom are mixed to claim mixed/non black unless the ones who are being encourage look non black on average. Some whites do encourage people who are mixed with visible black ancestry to claim black I wish the majority whites would join in and do the same.
I have seen a lot in my constant encounters with mulattoes of all phenotypes, and I have seen certain personalty types of mulattoes on the Internet too. I have seen certain quadroons and mulattoes who can pass for other ethnic groups look down on those who have visible black ancestry as though it is a stain to have it visible. And they adopt many of the racist attitudes that white supremacist one droppists have towards blacks. In other word the Octoroon looks down on the quadroon and the quadroon looks down on the mulatto who has some visible black ancestry the origins of this pathology is that the Octoroon and quadroon feel inferior to whites. A mulatto can who is a quadroon looking person can say they are apart of black culture but at the same time they face direct discrimination because they have phenotypes that don't look heavily black or mixed race.
I don't want self hatred filled Octoroons, Quadroons, 50/50 looking mulattoes, or certain blacks whom are filled with hatred, anger, and self hatred around me not even within spitting distance. These types of people spell unhappiness and trouble.
Also, from my experience a lot of quadroon and mulatto women whom have been raised in black culture often have sex with blacks who are dark skin and caramel skin. So I guess, I am a little curious about why certain quadroon and mulatto women would run around thinking they are superior too blacks when they have had black boyfriends and husbands and performed various sexual acts on them.
Basically Melani 23 your post came across as a one droppist post and that is why I responded. I know it was just your opinion and this post is just mine. It is not to be taken in a negative way.
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 {Posts: 300 } Location: Chatsworth, CA
Posted: Fri 19 Oct 2007 16:33 Post subject:
What Melani23 has said is true in my experience.
To point out what should be obvious - if you're not part of the black American ethnic group, why should you care what they say?
Keep in mind, as Melani23 noted, most people of mixed appearance will continue to identify as black Americans because of family ties and shared culture.
My blond haired, blue eyed (nappy headed ) uncle will continue to identify as black. Nobody's twisting his arm. If anything, he'lll be the one doing the arm twisting. Since he's a good six five, two fifty, I think everyone who disagrees with him will keep their mouths shut in his presence.
In everyday life, a lot of people will continue to see people who look like him as black. That's US culture. That's US history. It has no longer has any force in the law - everyone is free to call himself what he wishes. It only has force in the court of public opinion.
Thank you for responding to my post. Although you claim I am a one-dropper, that is not correct. I am a realist. Regardless of how you identify, most people will treat you how you look/what you say. But there are exceptions....
What is true in other countries isn't true in the US. I am all for self-identification, but until Americans are more educated about 'race', DNA and/or travel more, etc mixed people who look 'Black' will be treated as 'Black'. Do I always accept this? No. My personal wish is for DNA databases and DNA testing done for all Americans at birth. The fallacy of White purity/Black inferiority needs to end. I think this will force (many) 'Whites' (esp) to look into the 'mirror of humanity'. But, even then, things probably won't change because the group in power does what it can to stay in power. Human nature.
I am also quite aware that people who look like me are not considered Black in other countries and even some places in the US. I can always move if it came to that, it just hasn't, yet. I make it clear to others that I am of mixed identity/heritage, but that heritage does indeed include AA. I do not like to be labeled and would prefer a separate racial category, yes, but until we have the numbers/political clout, I do not see this happening anytime soon. It will probably take several generations after my death to accomplish this, so until then, 'I'm good'.
I'm not holding my breath concerning race relations here, and I have more important things to focus my efforts on.
I do support recent mixed people (F1 generation) having our own category, but LSB and Creoles have strong ties to their community/AA community AND can look like us. Kinda confusing. First generation American mixed race (F1) IMO, really does not have a separate language, custom, culture, name(s), etc to separate us from the larger AA community like Arabs, Hispanics, N. Africans, etc do. Now, some mulatto separatist would like to draft LSBs, Maroons, Redbones, Creoles, and even N. Africans, Arabs, Cape Verdeans, Colourdes, PR's, etc into 'our race' to boost our numbers, but I am ambivalent about that. Even thought this was historically done to AAs (ODR). I remember reading a slave narrative that mentions that all the White blood has 'ruined' the (American) Black race, lol. Americans know that we (F1) are different. We are just not socially/legally different.
Mariah Carey once called it (mixedness) being 'invisible' in a way...
So, back to my opinion of supporting typical AA Quads having a separate category only...its because they usually do not look 'Black' or 'Mulatto'. If ½ White, ½ Asian can be White and 1/4 Indian, Hispanic or foreign admix be White, then so can 1/4 or less AA (admix) be White too. IMO, they all resemble each other anyway.
Again, as for myself and how I publically identify, I frequently tell others that I am bi-racial and select Multiracial/Other and/or check 'all that apply' (white & black) on race forms when I fill them out (if I fill them out). Often times I leave them blank.
Culturally, I was raised in Southern US culture which has strong ties to 'generic' AA culture already. I was also raised in closer (geographic) proximity to my 'Black' relatives and Creole people (although my nuclear family had dealings with only a few of them). They are my family (thankfully not all, lol) My White family (immediate, and cousins) have always known us and they have visited us. I have gone to family reunions with them from time to time as well. They just live farther away (Yankees, lol). My mom is racially and culturally White.
So, if I marry a Black/mulatto person - my future kids will be AA/mixed-AA. They wil be raised as AA. However, if I marry/procreate into any other race, my kids mostly assuredly will not be AA at all. They will be raised as Other/that ethnicity.
P.S. I do not think Wentworth Miller's father is 'Black'. I believe his father is of mixed AA race.
odocoileus said: To point out what should be obvious - if you're not part of the black American ethnic group, why should you care what they say?
Keep in mind, as Melani23 noted, most people of mixed appearance will continue to identify as black Americans because of family ties and shared culture.
MP: What do you mean by black American ethnic group, what is the African American ethnic group that term can be manipulated and broaden at will. Also, many whom do not belong to various ethnic groups, religious groups, organizations, countries, etc often give their opinions about these things.
I do agree also that many mixed looking people identify as black, and that is because of what they have been raised. I support their right to identify as such too. I feel that passing knowledge about the ODR, and history of US racialism is very important, and it is this passing of knowledge that will help people understand better why things are the way they are regarding the history of US racialism. Educating the public is the first step. I would like to see it like this and that is mixed race people claim white ancestry, and identify black and mixed race at the sametime like mestizo Latinos. Therefore, you don't have to give up nothing but own everything meaning openly claiming your racial heritages. Your uncle is like many mixed race people he has been raised black so let him be, unless he comes into some knowledge that makes him view himself other wise.
MP: Yes it is true, that some of us due to our phenotype become can invisible at times, I will admit that due to this phenomenon I have been saved from serious harm. The public needs educating about US racialism I feel that like mestizo Latinos mixed race need to claim all of their heritages, just like they claim black, they need to publicly white, and other ancestries I feel this will help as generations go and on it will become the accepted standard. I am positive this is going to happen. Educating the American public is the first phase and we are in the first phase. Claim all ancestries.
Also, Melani23 what about caramel brown skin bi racials like Halle Berry, Lenny Kravitz, Rae Dawn Chong, and yellowish skin Jasmine Guy, and whitish skin Lisa Bonet, and dark skin bi racials like Trish Goddard, Mel B of spice girls these people are bi racial (First generation mix). What about them?
Also what about the that has one black parent and one white parent and they have two kids the first kid comes out all white with no visible signs of black ancestry, and the second child comes out the color of Terrence Howard very mixed looking but with visible sings of black ancestry. What do recommend category wise since you already said that family and ethnicity culture can not be separated.
And what about those people from other countries whom are mislabeled black but refuse the ODR, but yet they have visible signs of black ancestry.
There is something very sexy about a woman who has some black ancestry that is semi visble, but is not fully black but a mulatta. I also feel that certain quadroon looking mixed race woman at times envy this look.
I have also seen quadroon women who are jealous of Jennifer Beals because she looks beautiful. There is something about having being mixed race and having black ancestry that is semi visible that makes a man or woman so sexy and appealing. I feel this is one of the reason why Brazilian women and Brazilian men are considered to be so attractive. I have noticed that many Puerto Ricans who show visible signs of black ancestry but are mulatto and mulattas are found to be very attractive.
Ildi Silva Brazilian actress DNA test reveal she is 73% European and 19% black ancestry. She is beautiful there is something about having black that is semi visible that just makes a woman beautiful.
Grasshoppa wrote:I think Jennifer Beals looks utterly European. What does your own subjective beauty have to do with improving U.S. society?
MP: Many things we do as humans are subjective, and beauty is one of those things that are subjective. You see some one and say they are ugly, but another person sees the same person, and says that person is beautiful. And, being subjective like many of us humans are we still do good in life and being subjective, we still do bad things too. I do my part to help improve US society. Being here paticipating at onedroprule.org is apart of that helping improve US society, by gaining knowledge and being informed by this forum. I agree Beals look European but I have seen a person at this forum say that Beals looks black too her meaning visible black ancestry.
Posted: Sat 27 Oct 2007 17:44 Post subject: Re: Light skin black VS Mulatto ?
zandie wrote:
can you tell the differents ?
Alicia Keys looks more Latina and Arab (she could be Lebanese, Arab, Persian, Italian, etc) while Tisha Campbell is more a product of good hair care, i.e. dyed hair but she show more pronounced features associated with West Africa despite the colour! Both self identify as African because of the socio-cultural sphere of America. No other quality is implied with my statement.
Jennifer Beals and Alicia Keys, would cluster around the same phenotypic quadrant while Tisha Campbell will cluster on a separate one! Just guessing here!
Joined: 07 Oct 2007 {Posts: 248 } Location: United States
Posted: Sat 27 Oct 2007 20:14 Post subject:
I still think Alicia Keys has much more noticable african ancestry than Jennifer Beals. I'd put A keys. between Tisha Campbell and J Beals. At first glance I wouldn't have guessed J Beals had Afro ancestry, while it would have been immediately noticable in Alicia Keys.
Melani wrote: I am also quite aware that people who look like me are not considered Black in other countries and even some places in the US.
MP: The reality is, on the Internet we can say we are one thing and really be something else. People come to the Internet all the time claiming to be a woman or man or from this race or that ethnicity when they are from some other race or may be a man when they are a woman etc etc I guess the best thing to do is to show proof that one is whom one claims to be. If a person says that he is a Chinese and has a right to criticize Chinese, and others at the forum oppose this criticism by claiming the person is not a Chinese but a undercover white supremacy then the best thing for that person to do is provide proof that they are Chinese on that forum. This will quieten those who believe the person is not Chinese.
If a woman says she is an quadroon, well she has that right, but really on the Internet any man or woman can say they are quadroon white, black, Asian, mulatto, Mexican, etc etc anyone can say they look like this or that. The reality is, that some people will change their race on the Internet to accomplish a certain goal, and to get away with saying certain things. It is a good thing that certain forums request not to criticize a person's Identity nor ask what ethnicity they are from unless they reveal they are this or that.
There was one poster (mixed) here who said that if he (or she) had skin of a darker complexion his (or her) words would not be offensive to you. The moderator Gemini response (paraphrase): offensive to who? No one has every seen a photo (pic) of you before no one knows what you even look. In other words people can come to the forums and Internet claiming to be mulattoes, black, white, quadroon women or men, etc and that is there right to make up an identity and no one has a right to question it even if it is false. But like Moderator Gemini said no one has seen a photo of you before meaning until you produce evidence to the members of the forum, and direct other members to go view your photo to verify your phenotype (well you can guess the rest).
Also, Melani most so called light skin blacks would not be considered black in many countries in the western world or some parts of Africa from what I have been told by Africans and Latinos. And, some would not even be considered black in certain parts of this country.
'
FAQ
Search
Register
Log in
) uncle will continue to identify as black. Nobody's twisting his arm. If anything, he'lll be the one doing the arm twisting. Since he's a good six five, two fifty, I think everyone who disagrees with him will keep their mouths shut in his presence.
Do I always accept this? No. My personal wish is for DNA databases and DNA testing done for all Americans at birth. The fallacy of White purity/Black inferiority needs to end. I think this will force (many) 'Whites' (esp) to look into the 'mirror of humanity'. But, even then, things probably won't change because the group in power does what it can to stay in power. Human nature. 
but until we have the numbers/political clout, I do not see this happening anytime soon. It will probably take several generations after my death to accomplish this, so until then, 'I'm good'. 
Kinda confusing. First generation American mixed race (F1) IMO, really does not have a separate language, custom, culture, name(s), etc to separate us from the larger AA community like Arabs, Hispanics, N. Africans, etc do. 
Now, some mulatto separatist would like to draft LSBs, Maroons, Redbones, Creoles, and even N. Africans, Arabs, Cape Verdeans, Colourdes, PR's, etc into 'our race' to boost our numbers, but I am ambivalent about that. 
If ½ White, ½ Asian can be White and 1/4 Indian, Hispanic or foreign admix be White, then so can 1/4 or less AA (admix) be White too. 
IMO, they all resemble each other anyway. 
Ildi Silva Brazilian actress DNA test reveal she is 73% European and 19% black ancestry. She is beautiful there is something about having black that is semi visible that just makes a woman beautiful.
Ildi Silva
In other words people can come to the forums and Internet claiming to be mulattoes, black, white, quadroon women or men, etc and that is there right to make up an identity and no one has a right to question it even if it is false. But like Moderator Gemini said no one has seen a photo of you before meaning until you produce evidence to the members of the forum, and direct other members to go view your photo to verify your phenotype (well you can guess the rest).