Posted: Thu 20 Dec 2007 02:22 Post subject: Vilifying of Black Americans
My mother first introduced me to this site about a week ago, suggesting that I give it a look, partly because she's an OCD forum troll in need of someone to gossip with, and partly because of my own ethnic makeup and identification.
What has stood out the most to me since registering and reading through some of the posts in this section of the site has been the subtle and overt attacks on Black/ African American folk who feel that "mulattos" are black, and therefore, should identify as such.
From what I've read (and I openly admit that I am new to this site), I haven't seen much in the line of attempts to explain the mentality that some of us may have - especially those who are the black descendants of interracial/mixed relationships.
So here goes: From day one, my Grandfather always identified himself as black, and while I always knew he didn't look like the "traditional" black male, or black at all, for that matter, but I always took what he said on face value. The same goes for his mother, my Great Grandmother, who I recently just found out wasn't of AA/Black decent at all.
It wasn't until we were all gathered together in my Great Grandmother's house that it was made all too clear to me. The reason that even though by the standards I've seen on this site, neither would be considered Black, yet identified with being Black was because the White branch of the family didn't want us for those who were White choosing to marry interracially, and for those being the biproduct of said interracial relationships.
The one drop rule made the White club exclusive, and unless they denounced their non-Whiteness, they would not be good enough. Their choice was to stick together, be with their family, where the variations of the color of our skin, the shape our of mouths/ noses and hair made no difference.
Those of mixed heritage living today most likely haven't had to experiance the real hardships that Jim Crow/ ODR America had to offer. In my opinion, the lack of real persecution is the real reason that a modern day mulatto would "want" to be White.
For someone like me, "wanting" to be White is unfathomable, nomatter who much race mixing goes on. I see and acknowledge that the Black community does have issues when it comes to colorism, the truth is that Blacks have embraced the ODR and made it into a positive. If you have Black blood, you're one of us, whether you have White heritage or not. I don't see why that would be so vilified here on these forums. It's an inclusive mentality, yet here, I have observed a centiment that it is being interpreted as a crab mentality, that Black folk don't want mulattos to "ascend" to the stature of Whiteness.
I would argue that what should be remembered is that not too long ago we were in the same boat, back when laws were made by White America that let those with One Drop of Black/ African heritage know that they weren't wanted in the White club.
Now that racism is less overt and more covert, mulattos have the choice to "identify" as White ... with some african blood, free to vilify those Black folk who remind them that not too long ago in America we were the same people, unless you could pass. IMHO, those who chose not to pass, such as my Grandfather are 10 times stronger people than those who belittle and/or deny their blackness, because he could have taken the easy route, but he didn't, and he stood by those Black folk who stood by him.
Those who want to be White, should do so if it makes them feel better, but the reality I've experianced is that the Whiteness really on lies in that particular mulattos mind, and does not reflect any real racial progress or change in what everyone else sees.
It's like when a Black football player goes pro and dumps his Black GF for the stereotypical White "gold digger".
It's a personal choice, but for me, whether I have kids with a White woman, or any other ethnic group with "Light Skin and Good Hair", my children will be anything but White, because they didn't want us to begin with.
Posted: Thu 20 Dec 2007 03:26 Post subject: Re: Vilifying of Black Americans
Zo wrote:
my children will be anything but White, because they didn't want us to begin with.
Why didn't your children want you to begin with?
Or are you saying that White people did not want you to begin with? If so, then you are starting off on the wrong foot here, violating two rules in one sentence. First, you are generalizing about White people, rather than specifically describing which White people you are talking about. Second, and a more serious violation, you are using first person plural. Please read The Rules before posting again. Especially read paragraphs 2.4 - 2.7. This is a formal warning.
Posted: Thu 20 Dec 2007 04:36 Post subject: For the record...
Hey, Zo!
I just wanted to respond to a few things in your post.
Not all modern-day mulattos want to be white. I know this firsthand, because I am a modern-day mulatto and never once have I wanted to be white. I also know other mulattos who are happy with being mulattos. (Check out the link in my signature. )
Not all of the mulattos who post at OneDropRule.org want to be white and/or disparage "black" people/African-Americans. I mean, half of my family is "black" (African-American on one side and West Indian on the other) so how ridiculous would it be for me to ridicule people similar to my own family?
You may not realize just how many mulattos there are posting over here because some of us don't make it as OBVIOUS as the ones who, well, the ones you were referring to.
In regard to African-Americans embracing and welcoming mulattos as "black", I completely agree with you and have said something similar to what you said elsewhere. I think it all makes more sense if we think of things in terms of what I like to call "the greater colored community". That's just a more inclusive description, I think. I mean, look at my picture and tell me if calling me "black" doesn't sound ludicrous.
On the other hand, I disagree with the rationale that it's OK because a negative was turned into a positive. No. The dab'll do ya mentality has its roots in the notion that black blood contaminates and NOT that black blood is stronger. Even if you tell yourself that black blood is stronger or better or whatever and then turn around and tell a mixed person they should be ashamed of calling themselves mixed, then you (I don't mean YOU, I'm referring to people who one drop mixed folks) are STILL propagating that disgusting tradition that tells me that my black side is less, dirty, something that sullies me. Well, I for one reject that!
Also, I think there is a BIG difference between "black"/African-Americans who EMBRACE me as their own and those who would put me down for acknowledging ALL that is in me. Do you see what I'm saying?
Now, I cannot speak for the mulattos that you were referring to, but I know that we all have had our different experiences and those experiences mold us. For example, I think it is very easy for us to sit here in the year 2007 and pass judgment on the decision and actions of those that went before us. I know I've done it, but the more I analyze these things, the more I realize that some people had valid, self-survival reasons for "passing". They had families to take care of and they did it the BEST way they could. I cannot imagine the turmoil their decisions caused them. And, who knows what each of us REALLY would have done under those circumstances? Personally, I cannot fathom even LETTING people ASSUME that I am white. There's just something in me, you know? Yet, there are mulattos who ARE white, if that makes sense. It is how they feel, how they were raised, their proclivities, etc. Just like there are mulattos and mixed folks, like in your family (and mine, really) who choose to identify as black. Me? I'm a mulatto, through and through.
Posted: Thu 20 Dec 2007 05:48 Post subject: Re: For the record...
OTHER wrote:
Not all modern-day mulattos want to be white. ... etc.
There is another thing that should go without saying, but must be said nonetheless. There are millions of White Americans with Black or biracial grandparents. Just look at our collection of photos of Black parents with White kids. Hell, just look at my photo (I am 13 percent African). These people have no reasonable choice. They are not White because they want to be White. They were born that way. They had no say in it. It would be senseless for them to go through life insisting to everyone that they are Black, despite the obvious fact that, physically, they are not Black at all.
I couldn't care less about your rules, nor any "official warning".
I said what I had to say, and how I felt like saying it.
It's social stockholm syndrome, a bunch of colored people concerned with being white in a society where it has already been made clear that they are not white, hence, the creation of the ODR in the first place.
Keep begging for your place at the table, maybe you will get some trickle down white privilage, like a dog being rewarded for his obediance with scraps off his master's plate.
Posted: Thu 20 Dec 2007 15:07 Post subject: Re: For the record...
fwsweet wrote:
OTHER wrote:
Not all modern-day mulattos want to be white. ... etc.
There is another thing that should go without saying, but must be said nonetheless. There are millions of White Americans with Black or biracial grandparents. Just look at our collection of photos of Black parents with White kids. Hell, just look at my photo (I am 13 percent African). These people have no reasonable choice. They are not White because they want to be White. They were born that way. They had no say in it. It would be senseless for them to go through life insisting to everyone that they are Black, despite the obvious fact that, physically, they are not Black at all.
We are not including Multiracial or Biracial as an option here. Those are still the choices that actually bring many of us here as a group?
But aren't we putting a label on them by saying they are white-americans? What if they identify as Multiracial? Many people who come from families like those in the[ Black Parents with White Kids ]do identify as multiracial. In that section we are saying White as in they look white or better yet of 100% European stock. White is also a Social Political label-identity.
Posted: Thu 20 Dec 2007 15:43 Post subject: Multiple fathers and half siblings
Do any of you guys have an opinion on the affect of sibling groups where half siblings and mother's with (for lack of a better phrase) different babie's daddies" are the norm....and how that might impact the future of multi-racial person's self identity.
Meaning it's one thing repelling the opinions of those outside your family group but what happens when your light/white and your sibling a year younger is jet black?
This poster sounds eerily like a previously banned one, lol.
Anyways, spoken like a true Onedroppist.
Even if AAs made 'gumbo' out of scraps, they still ate what others threw away. And I for one reject the ODR precisely for this reason. Mixed-raced people are not 'scraps' the 'Blacks' were FORCED to take....
And FYI, not all mixies are White-mixed. What about 'Black' and Other mixtures? Tiger Woods has every right to celebrate his mother's culture w/o anybody's PERMISSION.
Last edited by Melani23 on Thu 20 Dec 2007 15:53; edited 3 times in total
Posted: Thu 20 Dec 2007 15:47 Post subject: Re: Multiple fathers and half siblings
Monica wrote:
Do any of you guys have an opinion on the affect of sibling groups where half siblings and mother's with (for lack of a better phrase) different babie's daddies" are the norm....and how that might impact the future of multi-racial person's self identity.
Meaning it's one thing repelling the opinions of those outside your family group but what happens when your light/white and your sibling a year younger is jet black?
Good question Monica. We have a perfect example. His name is Barack Hussein Obama.
Quote:
Obama was born on August 4, 1961 in Honolulu, Hawaii to Barack Obama, Sr. (born in Nyanza Province, Kenya) and Ann Dunham (born in Wichita, Kansas).[9] His parents met while both were attending the University of Hawaii at Manoa, where his father was enrolled as a foreign student.[10] Obama's parents separated when he was two years old and later divorced.[11] His father went to Harvard University to pursue Ph.D. studies, then returned to Kenya, where he died in an auto accident when the younger Obama was twenty-one years old.[12][13] His mother married Lolo Soetoro, an Indonesian foreign student, with whom she had one daughter.[14] The family moved to Jakarta in 1967, where Obama attended local schools from ages 6 to 10.[15] He then returned to Honolulu to live with his maternal grandparents while attending Punahou School from 5th grade until his graduation in 1979.[16] Obama's mother died of ovarian cancer a few months after the publication of his 1995 memoir, Dreams from My Father.[17]
Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1082 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Thu 20 Dec 2007 15:48 Post subject: Re: For the record...
gemini072 wrote:
fwsweet wrote:
OTHER wrote:
Not all modern-day mulattos want to be white. ... etc.
There is another thing that should go without saying, but must be said nonetheless. There are millions of White Americans with Black or biracial grandparents. Just look at our collection of photos of Black parents with White kids. Hell, just look at my photo (I am 13 percent African). These people have no reasonable choice. They are not White because they want to be White. They were born that way. They had no say in it. It would be senseless for them to go through life insisting to everyone that they are Black, despite the obvious fact that, physically, they are not Black at all.
We are not including Multiracial or Biracial as an option here. Those are still the choices that actually bring many of us here as a group?
But aren't we putting a label on them by saying they are white-americans? What if they identify as Multiracial? Many people who come from families like those in the[ Black Parents with White Kids ]do identify as multiracial. In that section we are saying White as in they look white or better yet of 100% European stock. White is also a Social Political label-identity.
I believe what Frank means is that these people are seen as White by society regardless of how they identify.
Posted: Thu 20 Dec 2007 15:52 Post subject: Re: Multiple fathers and half siblings
Melani23 wrote:
Monica wrote:
Do any of you guys have an opinion on the affect of sibling groups where half siblings and mother's with (for lack of a better phrase) different babie's daddies" are the norm....and how that might impact the future of multi-racial person's self identity.
Meaning it's one thing repelling the opinions of those outside your family group but what happens when your light/white and your sibling a year younger is jet black?
For the record, zo isn't a "previous poster", it's my son...
I think the different "baby daddy" phenon is something we didn't have to deal with on such a broad scale in the past...when most post pictures of their mullatto sibling groups of years ago, the kids are pretty homogeneous...
This poster sounds eerily like a previously banned one, lol.
Anyways, spoken like a true Onedroppist.
Even if AAs made 'gumbo' out of scraps, they still ate what others threw away. And I for one reject the ODR precisely for this reason. Mixed-raced people are not 'scraps' the 'Blacks' were FORCED to take....
And FYI, not all mixies are White-mixed. What about 'Black' and Other mixtures? Tiger Woods has every right to celebrate his mother's culture w/o anybody's PERMISSION.
That's right. I wonder why it's hard for us to deal with the black other mixes. A few of us here are also partially Native or some other ethnic mix.
I couldn't care less about your rules, nor any "official warning".
I said what I had to say, and how I felt like saying it.
It's social stockholm syndrome, a bunch of colored people concerned with being white in a society where it has already been made clear that they are not white, hence, the creation of the ODR in the first place.
Keep begging for your place at the table, maybe you will get some trickle down white privilage, like a dog being rewarded for his obediance with scraps off his master's plate.
http://www.webcom.com/~intvoice/sweet16.html
http://www.webcom.com/~intvoice/sweet14.html
Whoa! What was up with that!? I mean, what are there - like THREE or less mulattos on this message board that expressed a desire to be white??? I'm confused by this reaction. Did he even read anything else we said in this thread?
This poster sounds eerily like a previously banned one, lol.
Anyways, spoken like a true Onedroppist.
Even if AAs made 'gumbo' out of scraps, they still ate what others threw away. And I for one reject the ODR precisely for this reason. Mixed-raced people are not 'scraps' the 'Blacks' were FORCED to take....
And FYI, not all mixies are White-mixed. What about 'Black' and Other mixtures? Tiger Woods has every right to celebrate his mother's culture w/o anybody's PERMISSION.
That's right. I wonder why it's hard for us to deal with the black other mixes. A few of us here are also partially Native or some other ethnic mix.
Yeah, I'm not just of African and European descent.
Posted: Fri 21 Dec 2007 01:27 Post subject: Re: Multiple fathers and half siblings
Monica wrote:
For the record, zo isn't a "previous poster", it's my son...
Well, dang, girl, why did he just fly off the handle like that!? I mean, I found his first post to be thought-provoking (obviously, did you see my response?) and it had some validity to it. But, hey, you gotta play by the rules if you ever want to REALLY get your point across, you know?
So, Zo, get your mind right and come back and talk to us once your suspension is lifted. And I think your mom will vouch for me that I mean you no disrespect. I'd just like to finish this conversation YOU started.
Last edited by OTHER on Fri 21 Dec 2007 01:58; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Fri 21 Dec 2007 01:53 Post subject: Re: Multiple fathers and half siblings
Monica wrote:
Do any of you guys have an opinion on the affect of sibling groups where half siblings and mother's with (for lack of a better phrase) different babie's daddies" are the norm....and how that might impact the future of multi-racial person's self identity.
Meaning it's one thing repelling the opinions of those outside your family group but what happens when your light/white and your sibling a year younger is jet black?
Hey, I'd REALLY like to answer this, but I'm afraid it will get WAY off topic because it has nothing, whatsoever, to do with vilifying Black Americans.
Maybe one of the mods could split this question and mine and Melani's answers into a different thread somewhere???
OK, here goes...
Monica,
My sister has a BLENDED family in several senses of the word, so I can answer your question, to a certain extent. Perhaps as her kids get older things will change.
Alright, so here's the rundown. My sister is exactly what I am and some say we look like twins. She, however, is shorter than me and has green eyes that change to blue and grey. Her first husband had blond hair and blue eyes and he is like half Italian, half Irish or something close to that. Stay with me here and you might want to take out a pen and paper to draw a map. OK, so with that husband she had a son and a daughter. When my first nephew was born he looked JUST like me when I was born. His hair ended up being straight, though. He has jet black, thick straight hair, brown eyes, and light tan skin. He tans REALLY well in the summer. Let's call him A. His sister has white skin, medium-brown hair, and light blue eyes. We'll call her B.
Next! My sister's current husband is Nicaraguan. They have two sons together. One has curly medium-brown hair and his skin is very light but maybe with a slight olive hue to it and brown eyes. He would be C. The youngest has somewhat wavy/straightish dark brown hair and these BIG BEAUTIFUL round brown eyes. His skin is maybe dark beige. And baby boy is D.
But, wait! There's more! My current brother-in-law (who is Nicaraguan and is believed to have some Chinese ancestry) had a daughter almost ten years before he married my sister. Her mom is black/African-American. Now, this niece is darker than you, Monica. She has a deep brown complexion, somewhat of a milk chocolate, but perhaps with some red in it. She has very thick, curly hair. And she has brown eyes whose shape most likely come from that distant Chinese ancestor. So, then, she will be called E.
Alright, so I explained all that in order to answer your question. One day, when my husband and I were visiting our niece E at college (she will be graduating from Spelman next year - WE'RE SO PROUD!!! ) I asked her what she says when people ask what she is. You see, with her hair and eyes, there's no mistaking she's got more than African blood in her. So, she said she tells people she's black mixed with Spanish or Hispanic, something like that.
On another occasion, I was visiting my sister and sitting around the dining room table with her oldest three, biologically, that is. A, B, and C. So, I decided to ask them what do THEY say when people ask "What are you?" A tells them he's Italian which he is, in part. B tells them "I don't know", which she very well DOES, but must not want to bother with it. C, for a while, would tell people that he was Mexican. Wait, WHAT!?!? Yes, he didn't realize until he was like ELEVEN that he is not Mexican, not even in the slightest. But, this is the same child that thought me and his mother were twins until he was 9. HA HA! He's brilliant, but dinghy - runs in the family!
The youngest, D, was too young for the question to make sense, so I didn't ask him. Here's the thing, though. My family TALKS about all the wonderful ethnicities we have in us and the kids don't seem to have a problem with any of it. They know all sides of their family and get along with different types of people.
I think A identifies as Italian because it makes the most sense because he looks Italian. B probably says "I don't know" because she LOOKS white and it would probably come across as CRAZY if she started telling people about her African-American/West Indian grandfather! C identifying as Mexican was most likely based on appearance and an OBVIOUS misunderstanding. E primarily states "black" because her skin says so, anyway. See what I'm saying?
What the others will say to people as adults remains to be seen. I'm just happy that they embrace who they are and don't shun any part of their ancestry or family. Does it really matter that they all have a different response to the question "What are you"?
My grandmother has fair skin and green eyes, and my Mom's siblings all have light skin and green eyes--except for my Mom, who has brown skin and dark brown eyes. I guess that shaped my mother's identity, but as far as I know, her siblings consider themselves black as well.
I think it has a lot to do with personal identiy and culture, etc.
'
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