Posted: Sun 30 Dec 2007 13:37 Post subject: A Very Sad Story
The following story took place a week ago and happened to one of my best friends who is currently staying at my apartment and who is bi-racial
Cammi(not her real name) was engaged to her boyfriend Stephen(not his real name either)for two years. both are bi-racial, Cammi being of black arubian and caucaisian french parentage and Stephen being of black ethiopian and caucasian German. their phenotype is as follows: he has straight blonde hair striaght nose and Very pale skin and looks completely european (you could never tell in a million years that his mother was black!) and she has completey european phenotype with the exception of her hair being a bit on the course side but blonde (which she straightens).
Anyhow thursday of last weekCammi and i took our usual trip to the beuaty parlor to have our hair done. Cammi was in the process of having her hair straightened and i was about to go under the dryer when Stephens sister (his fathers daughter from another marriage who is white) walked in. she came to drop off her brothers car keys and came to the beauty parlor because cammis mother (who was on her way out) , told her thats where cammi would be. anyhow when stephen's soon to be half sister in law saw cammi's hair in the process of being straightened, she gave her a dirty look, gave her the keys and walked out. on our way home i asked cammi if she knew what was wrong with her soon to be sister in law and she said she had no idea.
Fast forward to this saturday evening. Cammi had not heard from stephen since he left for queens to visit family which was last friday(i was staying with her). through the week she tried calling and left messages but he did not return any of her calls. finally this evening he calls. he does not great cammi with his usual "hello love" greating but instead with one cold question " do you straighten your hair? Cammi not understanding where this was comming from says yes i do why ? He says, (and is very cold while saying it) This is too bad". you see i cannot marry a woman who does not have naturally straight or curly soft hair regardless of what race she is; my family will not allow it and personally i donnot want my children to have coarse hair" Cammi being shocked and hurt and crying her eyes out went on to profess her love for him and asked why he was doing this and in addition begged him not to do this. he went on to say he was sorry and that he loved her but the engagement was off. and with that he hung up the phone.
The end of the story:
Right now my friend is here and has been staying with me since the incident happened . her former fiance, like a coward came to the apartment while she was'nt there(he knew her work scedule) and got his things. she has not heard from him and is still completely devistated.
This story is sad but not surprising. I have come to learn that many half black half white biracials will not marry other biracials if they feel their phenotype weather it be facial features hair length or texture is "too negroid". this phenomina is also common amoung light skinned blacks. ( i knew of light skinned blacks practicing this before i knew of biracials practicing it) i attended a church for a few years which has had a large light skinned black majority and it was an unspoken rule that light skinned blacks with "good hair" as well as "good facial features" did not marry other light skinned blacks(someone like tisha cambell for example) that looked too "black".
I am wondering if anyone here has ever had or heard of anyone who may have had a similar experience. it would really help my friend to know that she is not the only white/black bi-racial this has happened to.
thanks for reading
Last edited by jagirl32 on Mon 31 Dec 2007 03:03; edited 2 times in total
I don't have any modern-day experiences to share, but I know this sort of thing has happened throughout the history of African/European mixed folks.
I hope "Cammi" will get to the point that she can THANK GOD that she found out now, before it is too late, how shallow her boyfriend is and how destructive his family can be. What if they had already been married!? What if they had already had a child with kinky curls!?
All I can think of is the self-hatred this man has and I wonder what his relationship is like with his Ethiopian family members or if he has any real bond with them at all!? He could have easily found himself a woman who was of European descent ONLY. Yet, HE chose to get engaged to a woman whose mix and phenotype was similar to his own. Surely, he felt some camaraderie with her because of this. The saddest part of this story, to me, is not what has happened to Cammi. I think Cammi has been saved from some MAJOR heartbreak down the line, the kind that does not so easily go away, such as divorce or a husband who despises his own children or in-laws who are always denigrating you to your spouse. The saddest part to me is that some day "Stephen" is going to have to come to terms with his shallow ways and THAT has got to be more painful than any called off engagement.
Please give Cammi a big old hug from me and tell her that, no matter how you slice it, she is not alone. Also, if Stephen does come to his senses before Cammi moves on, please warn her that, chances are, his family will probably be out to get her until they're done having kids and they've all come out with straight blond hair and what are the chances of that!?
I wonder if Stephen realizes that he could marry a Nordic woman and still pass on tight curly hair or tan skin from genes that he may have that are not being expressed.
Posted: Mon 31 Dec 2007 01:04 Post subject: genetics
OTHER wrote:
I don't have any modern-day experiences to share, but I know this sort of thing has happened throughout the history of African/European mixed folks.
I hope "Cammi" will get to the point that she can THANK GOD that she found out now, before it is too late, how shallow her boyfriend is and how destructive his family can be. What if they had already been married!? What if they had already had a child with kinky curls!?
All I can think of is the self-hatred this man has and I wonder what his relationship is like with his Ethiopian family members or if he has any real bond with them at all!? He could have easily found himself a woman who was of European descent ONLY. Yet, HE chose to get engaged to a woman whose mix and phenotype was similar to his own. Surely, he felt some camaraderie with her because of this. The saddest part of this story, to me, is not what has happened to Cammi. I think Cammi has been saved from some MAJOR heartbreak down the line, the kind that does not so easily go away, such as divorce or a husband who despises his own children or in-laws who are always denigrating you to your spouse. The saddest part to me is that some day "Stephen" is going to have to come to terms with his shallow ways and THAT has got to be more painful than any called off engagement.
Please give Cammi a big old hug from me and tell her that, no matter how you slice it, she is not alone. Also, if Stephen does come to his senses before Cammi moves on, please warn her that, chances are, his family will probably be out to get her until they're done having kids and they've all come out with straight blond hair and what are the chances of that!?
I wonder if Stephen realizes that he could marry a Nordic woman and still pass on tight curly hair or tan skin from genes that he may have that are not being expressed.
Said Nordic woman would have to have very recent SSA ancestry herself for that to happen. No recessive SSA genes are going to appear unless BOTH parents have recent SSA ancestry. If the "throwback" stories were true (as opposed to an attempt to deter alleged "passing"), suspicious-looking babies would be born to white couples all the time.
Someone should give Stephen a copy of the old Redford/Steisand movie, "The Way We Were." Steisand's Jewish heroine gets her very curly hair straightened. If Stephen never noticed anything "non-caucasian" about his fiancee's hair, then it must be within the range of what most whites consider caucasian. I've seen lots of allegedly "pure whites" who have near Afros but don't consider themselves to be part black in any way. Stephen and his half-sister seem to have an "Aryan" and unrealistic idea of what constitutes physical whiteness.
Posted: Mon 31 Dec 2007 01:33 Post subject: Re: genetics
Powell wrote:
OTHER wrote:
I don't have any modern-day experiences to share, but I know this sort of thing has happened throughout the history of African/European mixed folks.
I hope "Cammi" will get to the point that she can THANK GOD that she found out now, before it is too late, how shallow her boyfriend is and how destructive his family can be. What if they had already been married!? What if they had already had a child with kinky curls!?
All I can think of is the self-hatred this man has and I wonder what his relationship is like with his Ethiopian family members or if he has any real bond with them at all!? He could have easily found himself a woman who was of European descent ONLY. Yet, HE chose to get engaged to a woman whose mix and phenotype was similar to his own. Surely, he felt some camaraderie with her because of this. The saddest part of this story, to me, is not what has happened to Cammi. I think Cammi has been saved from some MAJOR heartbreak down the line, the kind that does not so easily go away, such as divorce or a husband who despises his own children or in-laws who are always denigrating you to your spouse. The saddest part to me is that some day "Stephen" is going to have to come to terms with his shallow ways and THAT has got to be more painful than any called off engagement.
Please give Cammi a big old hug from me and tell her that, no matter how you slice it, she is not alone. Also, if Stephen does come to his senses before Cammi moves on, please warn her that, chances are, his family will probably be out to get her until they're done having kids and they've all come out with straight blond hair and what are the chances of that!?
I wonder if Stephen realizes that he could marry a Nordic woman and still pass on tight curly hair or tan skin from genes that he may have that are not being expressed.
Said Nordic woman would have to have very recent SSA ancestry herself for that to happen. No recessive SSA genes are going to appear unless BOTH parents have recent SSA ancestry. If the "throwback" stories were true (as opposed to an attempt to deter alleged "passing"), suspicious-looking babies would be born to white couples all the time.
Someone should give Stephen a copy of the old Redford/Steisand movie, "The Way We Were." Steisand's Jewish heroine gets her very curly hair straightened. If Stephen never noticed anything "non-caucasian" about his fiancee's hair, then it must be within the range of what most whites consider caucasian. I've seen lots of allegedly "pure whites" who have near Afros but don't consider themselves to be part black in any way. Stephen and his half-sister seem to have an "Aryan" and unrealistic idea of what constitutes physical whiteness.
There's still so much that we don't know about genetics, especially when it comes to things like hair texture, skin color, and eye color. I am inclined to believe the very thing you said and yet I have a white cousin born to two white parents who has four siblings all of whom are obviously white- she even has a blonde-haired sister and a red-headed brother. And, yet, this particular cousin of mine has thick bronze-colored hair and VERY tan skin. People mistake her for "other than just white" all the time. We are confident her parents are truly her parents, as she has other traits from both sides. So, somebody had something somewhere and it would be TRULY FANTASTIC to find out that my white great-aunt AND the white man she married BOTH had recent sub-Saharan African ancestry. I'm not saying it isn't possible. I'm just saying, we don't really KNOW for certain that "Stephen" is incapable of passing on curly hair or darker than white skin, even with a 100% Nordic woman.
Posted: Mon 31 Dec 2007 02:33 Post subject: Re: genetics
OTHER wrote:
Powell wrote:
OTHER wrote:
I don't have any modern-day experiences to share, but I know this sort of thing has happened throughout the history of African/European mixed folks.
I hope "Cammi" will get to the point that she can THANK GOD that she found out now, before it is too late, how shallow her boyfriend is and how destructive his family can be. What if they had already been married!? What if they had already had a child with kinky curls!?
All I can think of is the self-hatred this man has and I wonder what his relationship is like with his Ethiopian family members or if he has any real bond with them at all!? He could have easily found himself a woman who was of European descent ONLY. Yet, HE chose to get engaged to a woman whose mix and phenotype was similar to his own. Surely, he felt some camaraderie with her because of this. The saddest part of this story, to me, is not what has happened to Cammi. I think Cammi has been saved from some MAJOR heartbreak down the line, the kind that does not so easily go away, such as divorce or a husband who despises his own children or in-laws who are always denigrating you to your spouse. The saddest part to me is that some day "Stephen" is going to have to come to terms with his shallow ways and THAT has got to be more painful than any called off engagement.
Please give Cammi a big old hug from me and tell her that, no matter how you slice it, she is not alone. Also, if Stephen does come to his senses before Cammi moves on, please warn her that, chances are, his family will probably be out to get her until they're done having kids and they've all come out with straight blond hair and what are the chances of that!?
I wonder if Stephen realizes that he could marry a Nordic woman and still pass on tight curly hair or tan skin from genes that he may have that are not being expressed.
Said Nordic woman would have to have very recent SSA ancestry herself for that to happen. No recessive SSA genes are going to appear unless BOTH parents have recent SSA ancestry. If the "throwback" stories were true (as opposed to an attempt to deter alleged "passing"), suspicious-looking babies would be born to white couples all the time.
Someone should give Stephen a copy of the old Redford/Steisand movie, "The Way We Were." Steisand's Jewish heroine gets her very curly hair straightened. If Stephen never noticed anything "non-caucasian" about his fiancee's hair, then it must be within the range of what most whites consider caucasian. I've seen lots of allegedly "pure whites" who have near Afros but don't consider themselves to be part black in any way. Stephen and his half-sister seem to have an "Aryan" and unrealistic idea of what constitutes physical whiteness.
There's still so much that we don't know about genetics, especially when it comes to things like hair texture, skin color, and eye color. I am inclined to believe the very thing you said and yet I have a white cousin born to two white parents who has four siblings all of whom are obviously white- she even has a blonde-haired sister and a red-headed brother. And, yet, this particular cousin of mine has thick bronze-colored hair and VERY tan skin. People mistake her for "other than just white" all the time. We are confident her parents are truly her parents, as she has other traits from both sides. So, somebody had something somewhere and it would be TRULY FANTASTIC to find out that my white great-aunt AND the white man she married BOTH had recent sub-Saharan African ancestry. I'm not saying it isn't possible. I'm just saying, we don't really KNOW for certain that "Stephen" is incapable of passing on curly hair or darker than white skin, even with a 100% Nordic woman.
I guess your white cousin would have to take one of those DNA tests for racial mixture. Do you know much about her four grandparents and eight great-grandparents? We do know that full siblings do not all inherit the exact same mixture of genes from their parents.
All I can think of is the self-hatred this man has and I wonder what his relationship is like with his Ethiopian family members or if he has any real bond with them at all!? He could have easily found himself a woman who was of European descent ONLY.
Many Ethiopians can be color struck and obsessed with hair texture too, IME. Conceivably his Ethiopian family may have similar prejudices.
That is sad. The color issues still exist and its almost 2008.
In this case, it appears that Cammi had the "right" color, it was only her hair that was a problem for this man. I agree with OTHER, it's good that she found out that her Stephen's "love" wasn't unconditional. Her marriage to this man would have been a big mistake. This is sad but she's much better off.
On a side note, I've heard it said and I read in various places that Ethiopians (certain tribes) were actually classified as "Caucasian" back when the field of anthropology supported this classification. Wouldn't this mean that a man like Stephen would be Mulatto but he would be full "Caucasian" since that's what his German parent AND his Ethiopian parent would be classified as? If his Ethiopian family consists of "non-kinky" haired people, this may also explain why Stephen would have this attitude.
Posted: Tue 01 Jan 2008 18:25 Post subject: you wanna know whats crazy?
You wanna know whats crazy? according to Cammi he's not attracted to white women. she told me he's dated quite a few but he just does'nt like them; he has always been actracted to women who are bi-racial. however the nazi ideology instilled in him by his fathers family has oviously had its influence judging by what he did to my friend. As for his mother's family thats a very sad story .(oh and i forgot to add the father's not racist just his family and step siblings) the father met her while she and her family where living in Germany for a couple of years. they had a relationship, she got pregnant but her family forbad her to keep the child because it was half white. (they where totally anti-white, but why they where in europe Cammi said he did'nt tell her) he basically said either give the child to the father to raise or give it up for adoption because she was not taking it back to ethiopia. Stephans mother gave him the child and told him everything and at first according to cammi he was going to give him up for adoption but he just could'nt. he knew that his family would not aprove or want the child but he did what he had to do. For the most part Cammi told me, his family did'nt treat him that badly. they where racist yes, but his taking completely after them in appearence kind of made it easier, eventhough according to what he told cammi there where times things would get nasty between them.
OTHER wrote:
I don't have any modern-day experiences to share, but I know this sort of thing has happened throughout the history of African/European mixed folks.
I hope "Cammi" will get to the point that she can THANK GOD that she found out now, before it is too late, how shallow her boyfriend is and how destructive his family can be. What if they had already been married!? What if they had already had a child with kinky curls!?
All I can think of is the self-hatred this man has and I wonder what his relationship is like with his Ethiopian family members or if he has any real bond with them at all!? He could have easily found himself a woman who was of European descent ONLY. Yet, HE chose to get engaged to a woman whose mix and phenotype was similar to his own. Surely, he felt some camaraderie with her because of this. The saddest part of this story, to me, is not what has happened to Cammi. I think Cammi has been saved from some MAJOR heartbreak down the line, the kind that does not so easily go away, such as divorce or a husband who despises his own children or in-laws who are always denigrating you to your spouse. The saddest part to me is that some day "Stephen" is going to have to come to terms with his shallow ways and THAT has got to be more painful than any called off engagement.
Please give Cammi a big old hug from me and tell her that, no matter how you slice it, she is not alone. Also, if Stephen does come to his senses before Cammi moves on, please warn her that, chances are, his family will probably be out to get her until they're done having kids and they've all come out with straight blond hair and what are the chances of that!?
I wonder if Stephen realizes that he could marry a Nordic woman and still pass on tight curly hair or tan skin from genes that he may have that are not being expressed.
Last edited by jagirl32 on Tue 01 Jan 2008 19:09; edited 2 times in total
nope stephans mothers family was black ethiopian at least, thats what stephan her
mixedmom wrote:
browneyesblue wrote:
That is sad. The color issues still exist and its almost 2008.
In this case, it appears that Cammi had the "right" color, it was only her hair that was a problem for this man. I agree with OTHER, it's good that she found out that her Stephen's "love" wasn't unconditional. Her marriage to this man would have been a big mistake. This is sad but she's much better off.
On a side note, I've heard it said and I read in various places that Ethiopians (certain tribes) were actually classified as "Caucasian" back when the field of anthropology supported this classification. Wouldn't this mean that a man like Stephen would be Mulatto but he would be full "Caucasian" since that's what his German parent AND his Ethiopian parent would be classified as? If his Ethiopian family consists of "non-kinky" haired people, this may also explain why Stephen would have this attitude.
nope stephans mothers family was black ethiopian at least
Is it me or is it the use of the construct 'black ethiopian' creates another 'absurdity' (sorry I cannot find another word that describes this) as if there existed a category named 'white ethiopian'!
Isn't Ethiopian the correct category. Ethiopians are an extremely heterogenous group and many offspring seem to take on the physical characteristics of the non-Ethiopian partner. My limited observation only!
Posted: Tue 01 Jan 2008 21:39 Post subject: Re: nope
jagirl32 wrote:
nope stephans mothers family was black ethiopian at least, thats what stephan her
The group that was formerly described as Caucasian included human beings from Europe with the lightest complexions to Asians (Indians, Pakastanis, people from Sri Lanka) and some East Africans (Ethiopians, Somolians, etc) with complexions ranging from tan to black. The darkest black skin color are found among the group formerly described as Caucasian. The group wasn't defined by color, but by skull shape and various measurements of different areas of the skull. When I asked whether or not Stephen's Ethiopian ancestry was "Caucasian", this was not a reference to white skin color or European derived ancestry. Stephen's "black" Ethiopian mother may simply be what was formerly described as "Caucasian" as opposed to what was formerly described as "Negroid". Does Stephen's Ethiopian family have "kinky" hair? A lot dark-skinned Ethiopian people don't.
But outside of some anthropoligists like Coon, the overwhelming majority of people in the world do not consider Ethiopians to be socially Caucasian. Hence if you ask people on the streets if they consider the marriage between an Ethiopian and a Swede for example to be interracial, the vast majority if not everybody would definitely say yes. Not even government census figures includes Ethiopians in their definition of White/Caucasian.
But outside of some anthropoligists like Coon, the overwhelming majority of people in the world do not consider Ethiopians to be socially Caucasian. Hence if you ask people on the streets if they consider the marriage between an Ethiopian and a Swede for example to be interracial, the vast majority if not everybody would definitely say yes. Not even government census figures includes Ethiopians in their definition of White/Caucasian.
The classification of Ethiopians as "Caucasians" wasn't based on social norms, it was based on skull measurements.
Asian Indians are also said to be "Caucasian" however, a marriage between a dark skinned Asian Indian and a white skinned European is also thought of as an "interracial" marriage.
As far as asking people on the street is concerned, you'd likely get all kinds of whacky responses to the same question when it comes to "race". There are some people who would consider the marriage between a swarthy Arab and a milky white Swede to be interracial. Does this negate the "Caucasian-ness" of the swarthy Arab?
Actually, modern science negates all of this for the record.
Mixemdmom if a Ethiopian or a Somali commits a crime in this country and there was a wanted poster with a picture of him out for his arrest do you think he would be described as a Black male or a Caucasian male ? There is a Somali poster named Wadaad who posts on a race forum called Human Biodiversity Forum and lives in the U.S who says he has been a victim before of DWB and that the WASP officers were very racist towards him. I didn't know it was possible for Caucasians to experience racism for DWB.
Mixemdmom if a Ethiopian or a Somali commits a crime in this country and there was a wanted poster with a picture of him out for his arrest do you think he would be described as a Black male or a Caucasian male ? There is a Somali poster named Wadaad who posts on a race forum called Human Biodiversity Forum and lives in the U.S who says he has been a victim before of DWB and that the WASP officers were very racist towards him. I didn't know it was possible for Caucasians to experience racism for DWB.
Mixedmom already explained that she was talking about physical anthropology classification by craniofacial anthropometry, and not about "social classification," which varies enourmously over time and region. This is BillyMadison79's second strawman within a few hours, and after being warned. His posting privilege is hereby suspended until midnight, February 29, 2008.
Mixemdmom if a Ethiopian or a Somali commits a crime in this country and there was a wanted poster with a picture of him out for his arrest do you think he would be described as a Black male or a Caucasian male ? There is a Somali poster named Wadaad who posts on a race forum called Human Biodiversity Forum and lives in the U.S who says he has been a victim before of DWB and that the WASP officers were very racist towards him. I didn't know it was possible for Caucasians to experience racism for DWB.
It depends on what this particular Ethiopian man looks like and it also depends on what area of the country we're talking about. Also, there are other types of people besides "black" and "white". The man may simply be described as Ethiopian in place of a racial description very much the way that a man in this situation who is Mexican would be described as Mexican in place of a racial description. This still had absolutely NOTHING to do with the former classification of Caucasian for Ethiopians. And to answer your question, it is possible for a person who was formerly classified as Caucasian to be treated as an outsider to the dominant mainstream group. It appears that you don't seem to realize that Caucasian didn't mean just "white". SOME "Caucasians" are dark, even black-skinned. My whole point to jagirl32 is that Stephen may come from an Ethiopian family that would have been classified as Caucasian rather than "Negro(id)" and "kinky" hair may not be a trait that is found in his Ethiopian family.
Posted: Wed 02 Jan 2008 05:33 Post subject: dark "Caucasians"
mixedmom wrote:
BillyMadison79 wrote:
Mixemdmom if a Ethiopian or a Somali commits a crime in this country and there was a wanted poster with a picture of him out for his arrest do you think he would be described as a Black male or a Caucasian male ? There is a Somali poster named Wadaad who posts on a race forum called Human Biodiversity Forum and lives in the U.S who says he has been a victim before of DWB and that the WASP officers were very racist towards him. I didn't know it was possible for Caucasians to experience racism for DWB.
It depends on what this particular Ethiopian man looks like and it also depends on what area of the country we're talking about. Also, there are other types of people besides "black" and "white". The man may simply be described as Ethiopian in place of a racial description very much the way that a man in this situation who is Mexican would be described as Mexican in place of a racial description. This still had absolutely NOTHING to do with the former classification of Caucasian for Ethiopians. And to answer your question, it is possible for a person who was formerly classified as Caucasian to be treated as an outsider to the dominant mainstream group. It appears that you don't seem to realize that Caucasian didn't mean just "white". SOME "Caucasians" are dark, even black-skinned. My whole point to jagirl32 is that Stephen may come from an Ethiopian family that would have been classified as Caucasian rather than "Negro(id)" and "kinky" hair may not be a trait that is found in his Ethiopian family.
He still treated Cammi very poorly in any case.
The U.S. government insists that North Africans are all "caucasian" or "white." Check the Census Bureau and most affirmative action forms.
Mixemdmom if a Ethiopian or a Somali commits a crime in this country and there was a wanted poster with a picture of him out for his arrest do you think he would be described as a Black male or a Caucasian male ? There is a Somali poster named Wadaad who posts on a race forum called Human Biodiversity Forum and lives in the U.S who says he has been a victim before of DWB and that the WASP officers were very racist towards him. I didn't know it was possible for Caucasians to experience racism for DWB.
Mixedmom, did mention that this was a classification of the past. From my understanding they aren't classified as caucasian now.
Everything does not revolve around how someone would be treated in Jim Crow times or if they'll be treated bad by the way they look.
Mixedmom presented some information about 'racial' classifications of a specific time period. She wasn't say they are 'white' people.
Posted: Wed 02 Jan 2008 10:22 Post subject: Re: nope
yep. black ethiopian with kinky hair
mixedmom wrote:
jagirl32 wrote:
nope stephans mothers family was black ethiopian at least, thats what stephan her
The group that was formerly described as Caucasian included human beings from Europe with the lightest complexions to Asians (Indians, Pakastanis, people from Sri Lanka) and some East Africans (Ethiopians, Somolians, etc) with complexions ranging from tan to black. The darkest black skin color are found among the group formerly described as Caucasian. The group wasn't defined by color, but by skull shape and various measurements of different areas of the skull. When I asked whether or not Stephen's Ethiopian ancestry was "Caucasian", this was not a reference to white skin color or European derived ancestry. Stephen's "black" Ethiopian mother may simply be what was formerly described as "Caucasian" as opposed to what was formerly described as "Negroid". Does Stephen's Ethiopian family have "kinky" hair? A lot dark-skinned Ethiopian people don't.
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