The Study of Racialism Discussion of U.S. Racialism Please read The Rules before posting.    FAQ   Search     Register     Log in  ' Broad Whiteness Narrow Blackness? Goto page 1, 2  Next          The Study of Racialism Forum Index -> Molecular Anthropology and Genetics Author Message SweetCocoa New User Joined: 17 Jan 2008 {Posts: 19 } Posted: Thu 17 Jan 2008 23:49    Post subject: Quote: Black Americans do not come in all shades and colors. Vanessa Williams does not descend from a blue-eyed, light-skinned tribe of Africans kidnapped from the coast of West Africa. She is a multi-generational mix of Africans and Europeans who created her right here on this side of the pond. She is not a black woman. She is not a white woman. She is biracial. The sooner black America understands and accepts this fact, the sooner black people - especially black women - will be able to create attainable standards of beauty for themselves that are healthy and affirming. Although I am the color of a Hershey bar, I am also a multigenerational mix of Africans and Europeans who created me right here on this side of the pond. Vanessa Williams’ skin color just happens to attest more to that fact than mines does. Black Americans DO come in all shades and colors. Just as white Americans come light, dark, with blue eyes and with brown eyes. It seems to me that there is a constant attempt to narrow the definition of what it means to be black by non-black and biracial or multiracial people, while broadening the definition of what it means to be white and/or creating new racial classifications altogether, i.e. multiracial. With respect to Black people why is it not sufficient to say that a person who’s ancestors came from the African continent, be it from west north south or east is Black? Yet the blackness of Ethiopians, Egyptians, and other north and east African peoples is constantly in dispute. Now, some are disputing the blackness of light complexioned African Americans with two predominately-black parents, i.e., Vanessa Williams. I have yet to hear the whiteness of Italian-Americans, Greek Americans, Spanish, or Portuguese come under dispute. Why is that? Why is no one disputing the whiteness of people like Angelina Jolie, John Tuturro, Benjamin Bratt, Minnie Driver, Jessica Alba or other white celebrities who have thick features, darker skin, or curly hair? Where are the discussions about “Black-Europe” when it comes to the dark complexioned peoples of Sicily and Spain? Do you know why this doesn't happen? Because there is a stigma against blackness that is nearly as old as time itself. There is something "wrong" about being of African ancestry unfortunately for whites, blacks, and others. This is why biracial people and other people around the world with African ancestry want to distance themselves from their black heritage. I think its pathetic and shameful. And no amount of race mixing, or sweeping the issue under the table is going to change things. The devaluing of Africa heritage and the overvaluation of whiteness should be faced head on and challenged… Back to top Salsassin SuperWizard Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3515 } Posted: Thu 17 Jan 2008 23:58    Post subject: Just wanted to mention that it would not be Black stigma with Angwlina Jolie and Benjamin Bratt. It wouldbe Native stigma if anything Back to top SweetCocoa New User Joined: 17 Jan 2008 {Posts: 19 } Posted: Fri 18 Jan 2008 00:41    Post subject: Salsassin wrote: Just wanted to mention that it would not be Black stigma with Angwlina Jolie and Benjamin Bratt. It wouldbe Native stigma if anything My point is no one is vehemently denying their whiteness just because they happen to look a little less white than average. The reason being that there is no stigma attached to whiteness. Back to top Famu Mentor Joined: 27 Sep 2007 {Posts: 282 } Posted: Fri 18 Jan 2008 03:11    Post subject: SweetCocoa wrote: Salsassin wrote: Just wanted to mention that it would not be Black stigma with Angwlina Jolie and Benjamin Bratt. It wouldbe Native stigma if anything My point is no one is vehemently denying their whiteness just because they happen to look a little less white than average. The reason being that there is no stigma attached to whiteness. Very good point, actually. Back to top Salsassin SuperWizard Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3515 } Posted: Fri 18 Jan 2008 11:53    Post subject: SweetCocoa wrote: Salsassin wrote: Just wanted to mention that it would not be Black stigma with Angwlina Jolie and Benjamin Bratt. It wouldbe Native stigma if anything My point is no one is vehemently denying their whiteness just because they happen to look a little less white than average. The reason being that there is no stigma attached to whiteness. Angelina Jolie looks White to me. It seems you are ascribing certain features as being "non white." While I do get your point and agree to a point, your example doesn't work there. Benjamin Bratt is seen as Latino, not White. Back to top gemini072 Moderator Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 2942 } Posted: Fri 18 Jan 2008 14:16    Post subject: SweetCocoa wrote: Salsassin wrote: Just wanted to mention that it would not be Black stigma with Angwlina Jolie and Benjamin Bratt. It wouldbe Native stigma if anything My point is no one is vehemently denying their whiteness just because they happen to look a little less white than average. The reason being that there is no stigma attached to whiteness. I hear what your saying, but I don't believe Benjamin Bratt identifies as white. Back to top Salsassin SuperWizard Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3515 } Posted: Fri 18 Jan 2008 14:28    Post subject: gemini072 wrote: SweetCocoa wrote: Salsassin wrote: Just wanted to mention that it would not be Black stigma with Angwlina Jolie and Benjamin Bratt. It wouldbe Native stigma if anything My point is no one is vehemently denying their whiteness just because they happen to look a little less white than average. The reason being that there is no stigma attached to whiteness. I hear what your saying, but I don't believe Benjamin Bratt identifies as white. Correct. Especially since he was raised by his Quechua mother who is very pro Native-American. Back to top sagascend Moderator-at-Large Joined: 17 Jun 2006 {Posts: 2407 } Posted: Fri 18 Jan 2008 15:37    Post subject: gemini072 wrote: SweetCocoa wrote: Salsassin wrote: Just wanted to mention that it would not be Black stigma with Angwlina Jolie and Benjamin Bratt. It wouldbe Native stigma if anything My point is no one is vehemently denying their whiteness just because they happen to look a little less white than average. The reason being that there is no stigma attached to whiteness. I hear what your saying, but I don't believe Benjamin Bratt identifies as white. But if he did identify as a White man, would his phenotype "disqualify" him? Probably not. I think that is what SweetCocoa is trying to point out...the range of what can be considered "White" is pretty broad. Back to top mixedmom Moderator Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 782 } Posted: Fri 18 Jan 2008 16:15    Post subject: I remember reading on of Frank Sweet's essays where he's pointed out that the White category has been expanding for quite some time to include people who would not have been thought of as white in recent times past. As far as questioning the whiteness of certain celebrities, from some of the lurking that I've done on Stormfront, BELIEVE me, there are segments of "whites" who do question the whiteness of Angelina Jolie and other celebrities whose "whiteness" is a little bit off. Back to top Salsassin SuperWizard Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3515 } Posted: Fri 18 Jan 2008 16:18    Post subject: sagascend wrote: gemini072 wrote: SweetCocoa wrote: Salsassin wrote: Just wanted to mention that it would not be Black stigma with Angwlina Jolie and Benjamin Bratt. It wouldbe Native stigma if anything My point is no one is vehemently denying their whiteness just because they happen to look a little less white than average. The reason being that there is no stigma attached to whiteness. I hear what your saying, but I don't believe Benjamin Bratt identifies as white. But if he did identify as a White man, would his phenotype "disqualify" him? Probably not. I think that is what SweetCocoa is trying to point out...the range of what can be considered "White" is pretty broad. Depends on the group. So people are open minded, some people are not. Many don't consider most of Southern Europe White. Back to top SweetCocoa New User Joined: 17 Jan 2008 {Posts: 19 } Posted: Fri 18 Jan 2008 16:32    Post subject: I hear what your saying, but I don't believe Benjamin Bratt identifies as white.[/quote] But if he did identify as a White man, would his phenotype "disqualify" him? Probably not. I think that is what SweetCocoa is trying to point out...the range of what can be considered "White" is pretty broad.[/quote] Sagascend understands completely. I'm trying to get you all to think about why the range of what can be considered "White" is so broad, and yet the range of what can be considered "Black" is being narrowed down to a single phenotype found amoung people's of African Ancestry. Is this an ODR in reverse? I feel like it is. When biracial people are trying to "claim" light skinned people of African ancestry who self-identify as black as one of their own, what would you call it? I have light skinned brothers and sisters, one has green eyes, and a light skinned father. None of us have biracial (one black parent, one white parent), parentage. We are all of African ancestry. Yet by some of the logic I've read on this message board they are not black because they do not fit the dark-skinned, broad featured Sub-Saharan phenotype which has somehow become a stereotype of "pure blackness." Why do you suppose this is? Back to top SweetCocoa New User Joined: 17 Jan 2008 {Posts: 19 } Posted: Fri 18 Jan 2008 16:38    Post subject: mixedmom wrote: I remember reading on of Frank Sweet's essays where he's pointed out that the White category has been expanding for quite some time to include people who would not have been thought of as white in recent times past. As far as questioning the whiteness of certain celebrities, from some of the lurking that I've done on Stormfront, BELIEVE me, there are segments of "whites" who do question the whiteness of Angelina Jolie and other celebrities whose "whiteness" is a little bit off. That's the old Hitlarian idea of the master race of blonde, blue-eyed, nordic whites. A stereotype of whitness. This is the beauty ideal against which ALL of us are being measured. Including whites. Never mind that only 2% of the white population even meets this standard. I also questioned Angelina Jolie's "whiteness" I do believe that she has some native american ancestry, and probably some African ancestry as well. Nobody in America is "pure" the slave trade took care of that. Back to top Salsassin SuperWizard Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3515 } Posted: Fri 18 Jan 2008 16:42    Post subject: SweetCocoa wrote: I also questioned Angelina Jolie's "whiteness" I do believe that she has some native american ancestry, and probably some African ancestry as well. Nobody in America is "pure" the slave trade took care of that. No African ancestry documented (excluding OOA) But Native American is documented. Back to top fwsweet Administrator Joined: 26 Nov 2004 {Posts: 5375 } Location: Palm Coast, FL Posted: Fri 18 Jan 2008 19:11    Post subject: SweetCocoa wrote: Nobody in America is "pure" the slave trade took care of that. What do you mean by "pure"? About two-thirds of White USAmericans have no detectable sub-Saharan ancestry within the past 10,000 years. Back to top Salsassin SuperWizard Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3515 } Posted: Fri 18 Jan 2008 19:24    Post subject: fwsweet wrote: SweetCocoa wrote: Nobody in America is "pure" the slave trade took care of that. What do you mean by "pure"? About two-thirds of White USAmericans have no detectable sub-Saharan ancestry within the past 10,000 years. I guess she would want the ones that have no detectable Asian or Native American Markers either. Even better, only Nordic markers if they took the Euro test from AncestrybyDNA. LOL Back to top SweetCocoa New User Joined: 17 Jan 2008 {Posts: 19 } Posted: Fri 18 Jan 2008 19:27    Post subject: fwsweet wrote: SweetCocoa wrote: Nobody in America is "pure" the slave trade took care of that. What do you mean by "pure"? About two-thirds of White USAmericans have no detectable sub-Saharan ancestry within the past 10,000 years. I'm sure it's true that where the racial mixing is concerned Whites interjected their DNA into the African and Indian populations of America more than Africans and Natives interjected their DNA into Whites. But there has been sufficient race mixing in this country over the last 400 years that we can be reasonably sure that most of us have some mixed ancestry. That is all I meant. I'm still waiting for answers to my larger questions as to why we nitpick what it means to be black while giving a very broad definition of whiteness. You all seem perfectly willing to apply the ODR in reverse on someone who has predominately African ancestry, identifies as black, yet has green eyes or light skin or who otherwise does not fit completely into the Sub-Saharan look. What of that? Back to top Salsassin SuperWizard Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3515 } Posted: Fri 18 Jan 2008 19:32    Post subject: SweetCocoa wrote: fwsweet wrote: SweetCocoa wrote: Nobody in America is "pure" the slave trade took care of that. What do you mean by "pure"? About two-thirds of White USAmericans have no detectable sub-Saharan ancestry within the past 10,000 years. I'm sure it's true that where the racial mixing is concerned Whites interjected their DNA into the African and Indian populations of America more than Africans and Natives interjected their DNA into Whites. But there has been sufficient race mixing in this country over the last 400 years that we can be reasonably sure that most of us have some mixed ancestry. That is all I meant. I'm still waiting for answers to my larger questions as to why we nitpick what it means to be black while giving a very broad definition of whiteness. You all seem perfectly willing to apply the ODR in reverse on someone who has predominately African ancestry, identifies as black, yet has green eyes or light skin or who otherwise does not fit completely into the Sub-Saharan look. What of that? I would say very few people here White one drop here. I can only think of a few. Or Mulatto drop, only a few as well. Most here believe in self determination. Back to top fwsweet Administrator Joined: 26 Nov 2004 {Posts: 5375 } Location: Palm Coast, FL Posted: Fri 18 Jan 2008 20:16    Post subject: SweetCocoa wrote: You all seem perfectly willing to apply the ODR in reverse on someone who has predominately African ancestry, identifies as black, yet has green eyes or light skin or who otherwise does not fit completely into the Sub-Saharan look. You are already under warning for a usage violation. Now I must warn you to back up factual claims. See The Rules, paragraph 3.2. Your accusation that "you all" (presumably meaning most members of this site) assign involuntary ethnic identity to others rings false. Paragraphs 2.5 and 2.6 of The Rules explicitly forbid such a thing. If someone has violated those rules by ... (2.5.1) discussing another member’s ethnicity or “race” without their permission, by (2.5.2) “racially” or ethnically labeling a member against their wishes, or by (2.6) criticizing anyone’s choice of ethnic or “racial” self-identity whether they are site members or not,... ... then please cite the specific message number so that I can warn or suspend the violator. If you cannot cite any such violation, but are simply making a false accusation, then you are seriously at risk of being suspended yourself, especially since you are already under warning. That was your second warning within 24 hours. I implore you to please, please read The Rules before posting another message. There will be no more warnings. Back to top MP mulattoprince Wizard Joined: 10 Apr 2007 {Posts: 464 } Posted: Fri 18 Jan 2008 23:28    Post subject: In America currently there is no broad definition applied to whiteness, but there is a broad definition applied to blackness (African American) in America. Meaning if you show visible signs of black ancestry you re stereotyped African American or black in general whether you like it or not. What is this fascination with light skin blacks that have noticed among certain African Americans. You sweetcocoa if I am not mistaken describe yourself as being an African American (you described your skin complexion). Yet you said you want to have biracial children with a white person. On top of that you said you will teach your biracial children that they are both black and white. Well some of those light skin blacks want to acknowledge their white ancestry too, but yet they get ODRed, but yet you want your children to acknowledge theirs. Back to top gemini072 Moderator Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 2942 } Posted: Sat 19 Jan 2008 03:09    Post subject: MP mulattoprince wrote: In America currently there is no broad definition applied to whiteness, but there is a broad definition applied to blackness (African American) in America. Meaning if you show visible signs of black ancestry you re stereotyped African American or black in general whether you like it or not. In america and outside there is a very narrow definition of what an African is supposed to look like. Whereas a European can range from light to dark, full lips to thin, curly almost kinky hair to board straight, jet black to almost white blond hair. Which is why in the past there was some confusion on what to classify Northern and Eastern Africans. Which is also why 'Europeans' try to consider Egyptians as whites. All you have to do is look at the sculptures and artwork of the ancient egyptians. The person your responding to from what I see is not dealing with mixed people but racial descriptors. What is this fascination with light skin blacks that have noticed among certain African Americans. You sweetcocoa if I am not mistaken describe yourself as being an African American (you described your skin complexion). Yet you said you want to have biracial children with a white person. On top of that you said you will teach your biracial children that they are both black and white. Well some of those light skin blacks want to acknowledge their white ancestry too, but yet they get ODRed, but yet you want your children to acknowledge theirs. Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         The Study of Racialism Forum Index -> Molecular Anthropology and Genetics All times are GMT Goto page 1, 2  Next Page 1 of 2 Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group