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Bischoff
Mentor
Joined: 20 Jan 2008
{Posts: 395 }
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 Posted: Mon 12 May 2008 05:41 Post subject: Do You Think This Jewish Woman Would Have Been Eyeballed As |
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Looking "Aryan" if she lived in nazi Germany and thus could have "passed" and avoid being put in a concentration camp ? She is a friend of mine on myspace.
To me I think she could easily pass for a German Gentile based on her phenotype. |
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William
Moderator
Joined: 30 Mar 2005
{Posts: 1046 }
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Mon 12 May 2008 16:35 Post subject: |
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| In my humble opinion, she doesn't look particularly Semitic, but I am not sure that would have saved her from a concentration camp. Sometimes, according to what I've read and been told, the authorities delved into people's genealogies and backgrounds. Then again, there were "Aryan Jews" who were spared from concentration camps. |
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sagascend
Moderator
Joined: 17 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Mon 12 May 2008 17:37 Post subject: |
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| William wrote: | | In my humble opinion, she doesn't look particularly Semitic, but I am not sure that would have saved her from a concentration camp. Sometimes, according to what I've read and been told, the authorities delved into people's genealogies and backgrounds. Then again, there were "Aryan Jews" who were spared from concentration camps. |
The Nazis were relentless about genealogical/political determination of who was and who wasn't Jewish but they bent the rules when it suited them of course. People who had been Christians for several generations were classfied as Jews. Blond-haired, blue eyed Nordic-looking people were classified as Jews, while brown-haired/eyed Semitic-looking people were not. Generally speaking, if you had a Jewish grandparent you were headed for the camps.
So whether or not this woman looks Jewish would have been quite irrelevant in Nazi Germany. Nazis were all about the papers. Passing might have enabled someone to escape temporarily but not to live out in the open without forged documents. |
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fwsweet
Administrator
Joined: 26 Nov 2004
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Location: Palm Coast, FL
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| Posted: Mon 12 May 2008 18:20 Post subject: |
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| sagascend wrote: | | So whether or not this woman looks Jewish would have been quite irrelevant in Nazi Germany. Nazis were all about the papers. |
True. This fact apparently bothered racialist Nazis who sincerely believed their own propaganda, that Jewishness was biological. Heidrich and Himmler funded several efforts to use craniofacial anthropometry or blood tests to separate "racial" jews (who were the targets of the "final soution") from merely "religious," "ethnic," or "genealogical" jews (who were not). Those efforts did not work out. No test was ever found to be replicable by an independent investigator. And so the Nazis resigned themselves to using genealogy (a 1/4 blood-fraction rule) as the best approximation that they could come up with. |
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William
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Joined: 30 Mar 2005
{Posts: 1046 }
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Mon 12 May 2008 18:43 Post subject: |
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| Maya wrote: | The Nazis were relentless about genealogical/political determination of who was and who wasn't Jewish but they bent the rules when it suited them of course. People who had been Christians for several generations were classfied as Jews. Blond-haired, blue eyed Nordic-looking people were classified as Jews, while brown-haired/eyed Semitic-looking people were not. Generally speaking, if you had a Jewish grandparent you were headed for the camps.
So whether or not this woman looks Jewish would have been quite irrelevant in Nazi Germany. Nazis were all about the papers. Passing might have enabled someone to escape temporarily but not to live out in the open without forged documents. |
Yes, that is my understanding as well.
Here is a tragic story that ultimately had a happy ending: My dad met a man in postwar Austria who was in a concentration camp. The man was a native Austrian, and a Catholic, whose family had lived in the remote mountain village near Lienz for generations. He was put in the camp because someone supposedly overheard him saying he was part-Jewish. He claimed he never said this. Anyway, he was taken away, only to be brought back home after a month, because research didn't support the tattler's tale. When it was discovered he was a very well-known professional boot-maker, he was taken back to the camp and ordered to make boots for officers. The excuse was that the authorities uncovered a hitherto unknown document on his family. He was never told what it supposedly was, and was convinced he was re-committed because of his boot-making abilities. He got out unscathed when the camp was liberated in 1945, and says he never suffered from malnourishment. In fact, he had all the food he wanted. For him, this supported the theory that there was no document proving any Jewishness, as he felt he wasn't likely to have received preferential treatment if there had been Jews in his background, boot-maker or not. (Of course, I'm sure stories of preferential treatment of Jews in camps exist, but in this gentleman's mind, his was because of his non-Jewishness.) |
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William
Moderator
Joined: 30 Mar 2005
{Posts: 1046 }
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Mon 12 May 2008 18:53 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Heidrich and Himmler funded several efforts to use craniofacial anthropometry or blood tests to separate "racial" jews (who were the targets of the "final soution") from merely "religious," "ethnic," or "genealogical" jews (who were not). Those efforts did not work out. No test was ever found to be replicable by an independent investigator. And so the Nazis resigned themselves to using genealogy (a 1/4 blood-fraction rule) as the best approximation that they could come up with. |
Interestingly, the work of anthropologist Hans Guenther, who wrote in the 1920s, attempted to dispel in a few short sentences any notion that the Jews were anything but a nation. He said they aren't a "racial" group, because there are Jews of all known "races." He said they aren't a cultural group, because Jews do not all adhere to the same culture. He said they aren't even a religious group, because there are Jews of all European faiths. He used Benjamin Disraeli, who was a high churchman, as an example of the last category. Guenther's conclusion was that Jews must form a nation. |
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sagascend
Moderator
Joined: 17 Jun 2006
{Posts: 2087 }
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| Posted: Mon 12 May 2008 19:58 Post subject: |
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| William wrote: | | Here is a tragic story that ultimately had a happy ending: My dad met a man in postwar Austria who was in a concentration camp. The man was a native Austrian, and a Catholic, whose family had lived in the remote mountain village near Lienz for generations. He was put in the camp because someone supposedly overheard him saying he was part-Jewish. He claimed he never said this. Anyway, he was taken away, only to be brought back home after a month, because research didn't support the tattler's tale. When it was discovered he was a very well-known professional boot-maker, he was taken back to the camp and ordered to make boots for officers. The excuse was that the authorities uncovered a hitherto unknown document on his family. He was never told what it supposedly was, and was convinced he was re-committed because of his boot-making abilities. He got out unscathed when the camp was liberated in 1945, and says he never suffered from malnourishment. In fact, he had all the food he wanted. For him, this supported the theory that there was no document proving any Jewishness, as he felt he wasn't likely to have received preferential treatment if there had been Jews in his background, boot-maker or not. (Of course, I'm sure stories of preferential treatment of Jews in camps exist, but in this gentleman's mind, his was because of his non-Jewishness.) |
That's terrible! I'm also inclined to believe that his skills rather than ancestry kept him imprisoned. There are so many stories about neighbours, co-workers and even family members who were sold out to the Gestapo for any number of petty reasons. It seems that the Gestapo were far from fastidious in their pursuit of the truth in those cases, which certainly will come as no surprise to any of us. |
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sir alcal
New User
Joined: 01 Sep 2008
{Posts: 30 }
Location: italy
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| Posted: Wed 03 Sep 2008 15:23 Post subject: Re: Do You Think This Jewish Woman Would Have Been Eyeballed As |
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| Bischoff wrote: | Looking "Aryan" if she lived in nazi Germany and thus could have "passed" and avoid being put in a concentration camp ? She is a friend of mine on myspace.
To me I think she could easily pass for a German Gentile based on her phenotype. |
She is clearly middleastern, with some asian admixture. The blonde hair are fake. |
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Grasshoppa
Experienced User
Joined: 07 Oct 2007
{Posts: 188 }
Location: United States
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| Posted: Wed 03 Sep 2008 21:09 Post subject: Re: Do You Think This Jewish Woman Would Have Been Eyeballed As |
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| sir alcal wrote: | | Bischoff wrote: | Looking "Aryan" if she lived in nazi Germany and thus could have "passed" and avoid being put in a concentration camp ? She is a friend of mine on myspace.
To me I think she could easily pass for a German Gentile based on her phenotype. |
She is clearly middleastern, with some asian admixture. The blonde hair are fake. |
No, it's really not as clear as you say. |
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sir alcal
New User
Joined: 01 Sep 2008
{Posts: 30 }
Location: italy
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| Posted: Fri 05 Sep 2008 13:45 Post subject: Re: Do You Think This Jewish Woman Would Have Been Eyeballed As |
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| Grasshoppa wrote: |
No, it's really not as clear as you say. |
Do you know what middleastern is? |
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fwsweet
Administrator
Joined: 26 Nov 2004
{Posts: 4525 }
Location: Palm Coast, FL
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| Posted: Fri 05 Sep 2008 13:59 Post subject: |
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I am locking this thread, and Does this man look black to you?.
Also, please be cautious about posting threads that ask for opinions of who looks like what to whom. By now, every member of this site should fully understand that such eyeballing is notoriously subjective. (See The Perception of “Racial” Traits for details.) Such threads quickly degenerate to "does not," "does too," "does not" ... ad infinitum and teach nothing but how to consume internet bandwith pointlessly. |
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