Posted: Fri 30 May 2008 14:14 Post subject: Do most Americans see most "Puerto Ricans" as non-White?
Subj: Do most Americans see most "Puerto Ricans" as non-White?
Supporting another member’s thesis that most Americans consider most U.S.-resident, self-labeled "Puerto Ricans" to be non-White (note the two uses of "most"), Richard Miller wrote:
Richard Miller wrote:
Puerto Ricans: Born in the U.S.A., pp. 59-62, by Clara E. Rodriguez, appears to substantiate his claim.
There are five problems with using Rodriguez's 20-year-old thesis on immigrants' struggle for acceptance and assimilation to support a thesis on how Puerto Ricans are seen today, twenty years later.
First, Rodriguez was talking about perception by English-speaking Americans (White and Black) and not about perception by Hispanic Americans. If we are talking "most" we must include everyone.
Second, Rodriguez herself apparently saw a great change between 1989, when she wrote Puerto Ricans: Born in the U.S.A. and 1994, when she wrote "Challenging Racial Hegemony: Puerto Ricans in the United States," in Race, ed. Steven Gregory and Roger Sanjek (New Brunswick NJ: Rutgers University, 1994) 131-45. In 1989 she was struck by immigrants' struggle to be accepted into the mainstream. In 1994 she emphasized the success of immigrants' children in accomplishing precisely that goal.
Third, it is easy to be misled by ethnic (as opposed to racial) self-label. One could argue that neither Irish-Americans nor Italian-Americans consider themselves White on the grounds that they too have retained their non-White labels ("Irish," "Italian"). U.S.-resident "Puerto Ricans" (the quotation marks distinguish them from residents of the island) continue to label themselves "Puerto Rican" no differently. Self-applied ethnic labels like "Puerto Rican," "Irish-American," and Italian-American simply denote different ethnicities under the overall White umbrella. To see this, consider that (as Rodriguez herself points out in her 1994 work) 90 percent of those who check off "Puerto Rican" on the federal census "Hispanic" question also check off "White" on the same form's "race" question. This point may seem peripheral to the thesis under inspection (perception by most Americans rather than self-perception) but I shall connect it momentarily. In any case, the overwhelming evidence (90 percent check off "White") is that almost all U.S.-resident "Puerto Ricans" consider themselves White. Puerto Ricans still, but White nonetheless (again, like Irish-Americans and Italian-Americans).
Fourth, self-label is vitally important in polite society. We have countless examples posted in this forum alone where mainstream society accepts someone's self-label with a shrug. There are exceptions, to be sure. Discourtesy in challenging someone's right to label himself or herself appears now and then, especially among A-A activists and academics. But by and large, most people around the world are polite and accept your self-label at face value.
Finally, and this the clincher in my view, there is only objective replicable definition of acceptance as "White" that has ever been presented, either in this forum or in the general literature. It is the scholarly consensus definition: "Are members of the group accepted as suitable marriage partners by Whites?" If a group is not seen as suitable marriage partners by Whites, then it is pointless to argue that they are "really White" in some subjective nonreplicable sense. And if they freely intermarry with Whites, then it is pointless to argue that that they are not. As of the 2000 census, about 45 percent of Puerto Ricans were married to Anglo Whites (about the same fraction as Italian-Americans). In fact, 15 percent of all "Hispanics" (including Mexican-Americans) married Anglo Whites (about the same as Irish-Americans in the 1930s).
In my experience, Puerto Ricans and Hispanics are DEFINITELY seen as non-white. In Ohio we mainly have Mexican immigrants, and racism against them is growing at an alarming rate. It isn't so bad in Columbus, but outside of the capitol, racism against Hispanics is pretty bad.
Joined: 26 May 2007 {Posts: 425 } Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posted: Fri 30 May 2008 16:23 Post subject:
Concerning the third problem, I think there's one possible issue with it. Though I'm not sure how it's done in the census, I can tell you as an HR professional that although "white" is indeed marked off for most Latinos (not just Puerto Ricans), most of them didn't mark it there themselves.
I'm not sure how it works with the census, but in many companies where there is a separate "race" question from a "Hispanic/not Hispanic" question, any Hispanic who does not choose a "race" is to be considered white by default, regardless of phenotype - even if he looks like Roberto Clemente (any non-Hispanic who does not choose a "race" is to be "eyeballed").
Where I work now, the "race" question is "check all that apply," and I do dissent by "eyeballing" Hispanic applicants as well. To me, I consider it to be the lesser of two evils.
Joined: 26 May 2007 {Posts: 425 } Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posted: Fri 30 May 2008 20:15 Post subject:
I just wanted to throw this is out there:
The reason why Bischoff, and many some others, are saying what they're saying, without citing any sources, is probably because of sheer disbelief, as it may contrast with what they've known their whole lives.
In world were certain non-whites are "true" minorities, and others are "honorary white," many African Americans have always considered Puerto Ricans to be their closest ally. Therefore, what's written here may be more than what many African Americans want to hear, i.e., the possibility (or probability) that Puerto Ricans might be "betraying" them.
many African Americans have always considered Puerto Ricans to be their closest ally.
It depends. It was only a few hours after giving an impassioned speech extolling the solidarity of Hispanics and A-As that Corrine Brown looked two Hispanic cabinet members in the eye and said, "All you white men look alike to me." Let us try to peer into the illustrious congresswoman's brain. In the morning, Hispanics were fellow "people of color" to her. In the afternoon, they were "white men" whom she could not tell apart from other white men.
Similarly, even borderline white supremacist members of this site and borderline Afrocentrist members of this site both agree that Puerto Ricans are non-White when the former do not need their political support and the latter do need them. But Puerto Ricans become White in the blink of an eye (as in Brown's eyes) when the former suddenly need them but the latter do not.
I agree that if White Anglos view them as suitable marriage partners, then they're white in a way. What I disagree with is the notion that simply rejecting the "Black" label will make you white.
This gives people the impression that White Anglos are color blind and that they're willing to marry anyone, as long as they're not African American. The reason white people aren't against marrying puerto ricans, asians and other non-Black groups is because in most cases, their children are more likely to look white.
What I disagree with is the notion that simply rejecting the "Black" label will make you white.
Historically, rejecting a nonWhite label and explicitly showing contempt for African Americans have not sufficed by themselves to guarantee an immigrant group's acceptance under the White umbrella. But they are a necessary step. See Jonathan W. Warren and France Winddance Twine, “White Americans, the New Minority?,” Journal of Black Studies 28, no. 2 (1997): 200-218. I have uploaded the PDF for you. Just click on the title.
BlackHaze wrote:
The reason white people aren't against marrying puerto ricans, asians and other non-Black groups is because in most cases, their children are more likely to look white.
Chicken and egg. The reason a few selected sub-Saharan features are seen as nonWhite, while other more obvious and measurable variations are not, is because of the endogamous color line.
many African Americans have always considered Puerto Ricans to be their closest ally.
It depends. It was only a few hours after giving an impassioned speech extolling the solidarity of Hispanics and A-As that Corrine Brown looked two Hispanic cabinet members in the eye and said, "All you white men look alike to me." Let us try to peer into the illustrious congresswoman's brain. In the morning, Hispanics were fellow "people of color" to her. In the afternoon, they were "white men" whom she could not tell apart from other white men.
Similarly, even borderline white supremacist members of this site and borderline Afrocentrist members of this site both agree that Puerto Ricans are non-White when the former do not need their political support and the latter do need them. But Puerto Ricans become White in the blink of an eye (as in Brown's eyes) when the former suddenly need them but the latter do not.
I think the opinions of most American born blacks is that puerto ricans are non-whites based on the island being a society that at one time had african slavery, plantations and african laboreres on an island which limited who one might have the opportunity to mate with.
What I disagree with is the notion that simply rejecting the "Black" label will make you white.
Historically, rejecting a nonWhite label and explicitly showing contempt for African Americans have not sufficed by themselves to guarantee an immigrant group's acceptance under the White umbrella. But they are a necessary step. See Jonathan W. Warren and France Winddance Twine, “White Americans, the New Minority?,” Journal of Black Studies 28, no. 2 (1997): 200-218. I have uploaded the PDF for you. Just click on the title.
BlackHaze wrote:
The reason white people aren't against marrying puerto ricans, asians and other non-Black groups is because in most cases, their children are more likely to look white.
Chicken and egg. The reason a few selected sub-Saharan features are seen as nonWhite, while other more obvious and measurable variations are not, is because of the endogamous color line.
Perhaps I am missing something, most people who are classifying themselves as "white" in American ARE "white". Meaning they have European ancestry and phenotype. In America, asians are not white, indians are not white and Africans and African Americans are not whites. Logic would dictate that if Asians, indians, arabs, etc consisered themselves "white" then they would call themselves white.
Isn't it as simple as my knowing that you are Frank Sweet NOT Laura Washington, and although I know Frank Sweet not the name you were born into, you are still not Laura Washington (unless you go to court and change your name). So tell me, have these ethnic groups let the world know in some wholesale fashion that they now what to be refered to as white? ( like how Burma wants the world to know it is now Myamar)
most people who are classifying themselves as "white" in American ARE "white". Meaning they have European ancestry and phenotype. In America, asians are not white, indians are not white and Africans and African Americans are not whites. Logic would dictate that if Asians, indians, arabs, etc consisered themselves "white" then they would call themselves white.
Wrong on every count. First, "European phenotype" has varied. Ben Franklin believed that the descendants of German-American immigrants would never be able to pass as White because Germans are obviously non-White by appearance. Second, such Asians in America as Turks and Arabs have always considered themselves White. Third, east Asians (Chinese-Americans in particular) were ruled to be legally White in the Jim Crow South. Finally, the only accepted replicable scholarly definition of "White" is "accepted as suitable marriage partners by Whites."
You did not read Jonathan W. Warren and France Winddance Twine, “White Americans, the New Minority?,” Journal of Black Studies 28, no. 2 (1997): 200-218, the article to which I provided a link. The answers to your questions (as to how immigrant groups succeed in merging into Whiteness) are there. Alternatively, for a similar account that is easier to read but just as thoroughly footnoted, see The "Race" Notion's Role in Ethnic Assimilation. Please read either one now before opining on this topic again.
NNDB does not classify Puerto Ricans as White. I could not find a single example of a celebrity with 2 Puerto Rican parents who is listed as White under race or ethnicity.
Yet NNDB has absolutely no problem classifying celebrities of pure Irish, German, Italian, or Jewish ancestry as White under race or ethnicity.
Here are some examples
It doesn't look like Puerto Ricans are socially heading the same way as the Italians, Germans, Irish, and Jews when it comes to being accepted in the eyes as of most Americans as socially White. By American standards most Puerto Ricans genetically have way too much SSA admixture in their family tree. One of the main reasons why the Jews, Italians, Germans, and the Irish eventually was accepted as White in the U.S is because the SSA admixture in those groups is nowhere near as high as it is among most Puerto Ricans. Most Puerto Ricans have SSA admixture in the double digits percentage wise. By American standards an ethnic group that averages SSA admixture in the double digits will definitely have an extremely hard time being accepted by most Non Hispanic Whites as their racial kin since most Non Hispanic Whites fall into one of 2 categories. 1) They either have absolutely no detectable SSA ancestry whatsoever or 2) If they do it's extremely miniscule, in most cases it definitely does not reach the level of double digits percentage wise, or in other words the SSA admixture is definitely well under 10% for most. Most Non Hispanic Whites would definitely not be able to give most Puerto Ricans a run for their money in the SSA admixture department. Hence why facial features, hair texture, and pigmentation that are socially eyeballed as Negroid traits is alot more commonly found among Puerto Ricans than it is among Non Hispanic Whites. Also add to the fact that Puerto Ricans are not socially considered model minorities the same way Asian Americans such as the Chinese and the Indians are for example since the Puerto Rican community in the U.S has a high rate of high school dropouts and people who live the below the poverty line. So non model minority status plus high Non European admixture, and the fact that the Puerto Rican community have a good strong positive relationship with the African American community is what's stopping most Puerto Ricans from from being granted access into that social club that opened it's doors to the Jews, Italians, the Irish, and the Germans. Most Puerto Ricans will forever belong to the Nonwhite social club that includes African Americans, Mexicans, Dominicans, Pacific Islanders etc. No ethnic group that is partially responsible for the birth of hip hop will ever been as socially White in the U.S.
I agree with William. Suspended members should not simply create another userid in order to continue posting. I am de-activating both BillyMadison69 and Straight Edge. If the individual wants to continue here, he/she should use the "Bischoff" userid when it is reinstated.
When I read thread like this, I am always baffled. I am not an American and I do not reside in America therefore, I cannot fully comprehend issues like these. The definition of white people is for people who are of mainly European descent. I find it difficult to believe this definition can extend to other groups including those of Asian descent. Moreover, in my little experience of white Americans, I have never seen or heard them refer to those from non-European background as white.
Joined: 02 May 2006 {Posts: 443 } Location: Île-de-France
Posted: Sun 01 Jun 2008 13:32 Post subject:
Where I currently reside in the upper midwest, (and where I will soon leave), it seems to me that most white Americans simply apply thier own preconcieved colorline to Puerto Ricans: "If they look white to them they are white, if they don't they aren't." This is to say that most people here do not seem to have any preconcieved notion about the "race" of Puerto Ricans as a group, so they simply place them into the racial classification system that they already have internalized based on how they look. When they are presented with a situation where family members fall on to opposite sides of their preconcieved black/white color line (like for example, my wife and her mother) they must deal with the square peg that won't fit in the square hole in one of several way: Apply the one drop rule (which does not seem to happen very often), accept the Puerto Rican view of color ("oh, your mom is black and you are white, OK"-also not very common), or place both in a new category (Oh, ok you're not black or white, you're Puerto Rican-seems to be most common and the most acceptable solution to all involved )
in my little experience of white Americans, I have never seen or heard them refer to those from non-European background as white.
If you are referring to Asians, I recommend James W. Loewen, The Mississippi Chinese: Between Black and White (Cambridge MA: Harvard University, 1971) or either of the two sources to which I already provided links: Jonathan W. Warren and France Winddance Twine, “White Americans, the New Minority?,” Journal of Black Studies 28, no. 2 (1997): 200-218; or The "Race" Notion's Role in Ethnic Assimilation. Please. The goal here is to inform and to become informed. We cannot do that unless people are wiling to read.
If you are referring to Jews, I recommend either Karen Brodkin, How Jews Became White Folks and What That Says About Race in America (New Brunswick NJ: Rutgers University, 1998) or the shorter Karen Brodkin Sacks, “How Did Jews Become White Folks?,” in Race, ed. Steven Gregory and Roger Sanjek (New Brunswick NJ: Rutgers University, 1994), 78-102.
If you are referring to Puerto Ricans, Puerto Ricans are of Spanish language and culture. Spain is in Europe.
MisterLawyer wrote:
When they are presented with a situation where family members fall on to opposite sides ... [they]: Apply the one drop rule (which does not seem to happen very often), accept the Puerto Rican view of color ("oh, your mom is black and you are white, OK"-also not very common), or place both in a new category (Oh, ok you're not black or white, you're Puerto Rican-seems to be most common and the most acceptable solution to all involved )
Interesting. Here in south Florida (we are visiting grandchildren this weekend), I would reverse the last two. Most frequent: your mom is black and you are white (sort of like what Charles Byrd hears). Second-most: you're not black or white, you're Puerto Rican. Third-most: the ODR. The main exception seems to be A-A's who usually apply the ODR if they do not realize that the subject and the mother are both Puerto Rican.
Last edited by fwsweet on Sun 01 Jun 2008 16:08; edited 1 time in total
many African Americans have always considered Puerto Ricans to be their closest ally.
It depends. It was only a few hours after giving an impassioned speech extolling the solidarity of Hispanics and A-As that Corrine Brown looked two Hispanic cabinet members in the eye and said, "All you white men look alike to me." .
Was Corrine Brown referring to Mexican Americans or to Puerto Ricans? The former, at least in the NY area, are perceived quite differently from the latter as are Dominicans and Cubans of color. Certainly anyone who is familiar with The Bronx will note the close friendships and other forms of association and cultural exchange that more than a few US Born Puerto Ricans have with African Americans. The whole hip hop culture that emerged in the late 70s is evidence of that as is the African American tinged accent. I have personally witnessed hostile behavior from Puerto Ricans (and Dominicans) towards Mexicans and mestizo Central Americans.
I have never heard any refer to ether Ricky Martin or Jennifer Lopez as white. Clearly Big Pun and Rosie Perez arent. seen as such.
Possibly Rita Moreno?
I suspect it depends on the phenotype and the degree of perceived assimilation into teh American mainstream culture.
Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1082 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Tue 03 Jun 2008 22:43 Post subject:
caribj wrote:
I have never heard any refer to ether Ricky Martin or Jennifer Lopez as white.
Where I work, the TV is often tuned to The View in the morning. I recall Joy Behar once saying something like (referring to Ricky Martin): "That white boy can dance!" One of the other members said, "He's not white. He's Hispanic. He's Puerto Rican." Joy retorted by saying something similar to, "Are you telling me he's not a white boy? You can be Hispanic and white. Just look at him. He looks like a relative of mine, and I'm Italian-American. Many Puerto Ricans are white."
Obviously, Joy was calling him white based on phenotype. I honestly don't know how Ricky Martin identifies.
I have never heard any refer to ether Ricky Martin or Jennifer Lopez as white.
Where I work, the TV is often tuned to The View in the morning. I recall Joy Behar once saying something like (referring to Ricky Martin): "That white boy can dance!" One of the other members said, "He's not white. He's Hispanic. He's Puerto Rican." Joy retorted by saying something similar to, "Are you telling me he's not a white boy? You can be Hispanic and white. Just look at him. He looks like a relative of mine, and I'm Italian-American. Many Puerto Ricans are white."
Obviously, Joy was calling him white based on phenotype. I honestly don't know how Ricky Martin identifies.
I know he wasn't called white when he was in Menudo (yes I know I am dating myself) and he was "the Latin Lover"on whatever soap opera he was on. But by the time he started Living La Vida Loca, more people referred to him as white. Maybe it was the dancing...
*buh dum PISH*
Last edited by anonymouse on Wed 04 Jun 2008 00:19; edited 1 time in total
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