Latino Ethnicity and Race

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Latino Ethnicity and Race
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The Study of Racialism Forum Index -> Ethnicity in America

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Egmond Codfried
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Joined: 03 Jul 2008
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Posted: Wed 15 Oct 2008 14:37 Post subject:

This is the thread we are in now: 'Ethnicity in America.' So no Black Blood is Blue Blood, over here. Do you have something to contribute on Latino's, Black Irish, Black Dutch or Cape Verdians? That would be wonderfull to have the discussion going. What link did you not find?

fwsweet
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Joined: 26 Nov 2004
{Posts: 5376 }
Location: Palm Coast, FL

Posted: Wed 15 Oct 2008 16:07 Post subject:

Egmond Codfried wrote:

how can one approach a known 'false player' a liar and a cheat as if he just came to the table and is above any reproach. Are you not allowed to expose his old tricks by pointing to older showdowns? This is off topic for this thread because I am not allowed to post in the discussion of the Rules thread. Perhaps it can now be moved to that thread?

Yes, it should be in "Site Management," but while the software allows thread-splitting at the bottom, it does not enable a moderator to pull selected messages out of the middle a thread and use them to start a new thread. I was going to split them off, as you probably foresaw, but by then you had already posted subsequently on-topic.

The best answer I can give is that one never knows why two off-site disputants have chosen to bring their squablle here. It could be that they are honestly interested in the subject and feel that continuing their debate under this site's strict rules will help them focus on issues rather than on personalities. In any event, the moderators really have no choice but to apply the rules evenly to both incoming disputants, thus forcing both to change their style to fit this site's rules. Retaliation even for an insult hurled on this site is forbidden. Retaliation for an insult hurled from outside this site is not only forbidden but looks unprovoked and will arouse moderator suspicion that you are a troll.

If you want to continue discussing why we do not allow new members to bring in squabbles from outside, please start a new thread in the "Site Management" forum.

fwsweet
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Joined: 26 Nov 2004
{Posts: 5376 }
Location: Palm Coast, FL

Posted: Wed 15 Oct 2008 16:17 Post subject:

Egmond Codfried wrote:

This is the thread we are in now: 'Ethnicity in America.' ... Do you have something to contribute on Latino's, Black Irish, Black Dutch or Cape Verdians?

Are Black Irish or Black Dutch U.S. ethnic groups?

Egmond Codfried
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Joined: 03 Jul 2008
{Posts: 242 }

Posted: Fri 17 Oct 2008 08:40 Post subject:

fwsweet wrote:

Egmond Codfried wrote:

This is the thread we are in now: 'Ethnicity in America.' ... Do you have something to contribute on Latino's, Black Irish, Black Dutch or Cape Verdians?

Are Black Irish or Black Dutch U.S. ethnic groups?

As I understand it, those two do not really exist anymore as such. Just in the memory of some descendents who research their ancestors. And off course they are alive in the historical cartoons about the so-called Black Irish. But in my research, which I will not discuss on ODR anymore, they are EXTREMELY important. I have posted a piece over here just to point out that the question of the ethnicity of newcomers in the USA has been dealt with before, and might give more understanding of the present discussion over the ethnicity of US Latino's for example. That was my contribution to the mission of ‘learn and inform.'

Egmond Codfried
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Joined: 03 Jul 2008
{Posts: 242 }

Posted: Sat 18 Oct 2008 10:06 Post subject:

[quote="fwsweet"]

Egmond Codfried wrote:

Quote:

Are you serious? Do we serf the software or does the software serf us?

Quote:

The best answer I can give is that one never knows why two off-site disputants have chosen to bring their squablle here. It could be that they are honestly interested in the subject and feel that continuing their debate under this site's strict rules will help them focus on issues rather than on personalities. In any event, the moderators really have no choice but to apply the rules evenly to both incoming disputants, thus forcing both to change their style to fit this site's rules. Retaliation even for an insult hurled on this site is forbidden. Retaliation for an insult hurled from outside this site is not only forbidden but looks unprovoked and will arouse moderator suspicion that you are a troll.

The squabble, as you called it, could have began on this site. So one will be dredging up stuff from right here. Like if somebody does not really contributes to the discussion, but proposes irritating questions and stupid statements, perhaps to trip another person up.

Quote:

If you want to continue discussing why we do not allow new members to bring in squabbles from outside, please start a new thread in the "Site Management" forum.

I see what I can do.

Sadie
Regular User

Joined: 19 Oct 2008
{Posts: 73 }

Posted: Tue 21 Oct 2008 16:49 Post subject:

BlackHaze wrote:

Most latinos in the U.S. identify with their nationality and do not share a common bond with first generation bi-racial americans or tri-racial groups that have been here for centuries.

I have a friend who's puerto rican and according to him, latin countries in the carribean don't really use racial or ethnic terms to describe people. The terms that they use only describe someone's physical appearance. If this is true, you probably won't find a lot of latinos who identify themselves as mulatto or mixed race. Nationality usually comes first. This is what I've been told.

That might explain why most Americans dont view them as mixed. Its also due to the fact that most latinos are mexican, and mexicans are big supporters of the ODR. Look up the spanish soap opera El Alma no Tiene Color , it looks like mexican version of Imitation of Life.

http://telenovela-world.com/archives/show.php?N=almanotienecolorel1997

Yes the Puerto Ricans use physical descriptors to describe skin color and appearance. It doesn't resemble the USA system which is very narrow and you can only be black or white. However, there is no doubt that there is some racism especially towards the more African-looking ones. Here is an interesting article by sociologist Jorge Duany showing the words used to describe color in Puerto Rico.http://maxweber.hunter.cuny.edu/eres/docs/eres/SOC217_PIMENTEL/duany.pdf

Sadie
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Joined: 19 Oct 2008
{Posts: 73 }

Posted: Tue 21 Oct 2008 16:59 Post subject: Re: Latinos

Powell wrote:

onlyhuman77 wrote:

Something I found very interesting, once when dating a multiracial female who was West Indian (Father-Indian/West Indian, Mother-German) I received so much attitude from African American females it was rediculous. But when I was dating a Spanish female (Mexican/Puerto Rican) who dressed way too provacative for my taste, not a peep from the peanut gallery. So the Multiracial sister with African ancestry gets no love but the Latina with Eva Longoria proportions gets props on her sleezy yet fashion forward attire . I just didn't get it.

But Latinos are also mixed. Americans are socialized to talk about them as though they were a separate "race."

I really don't understand your post. Why would African-American females be bothered because you dated a biracial women and OK when it was a Latina female? Maybe it had more to do with skin color. Did the biracial female look more white than African and thus was lighter than the Latina one? And how does this lead to the title of your post? Everyone knows they are of mixed heritage with some more mixed than others which results in a variety of hues. Latinos can be as white as Ricky Martin or as dark as Tego Calderon. It is analogous to American. Americans come in different shades too.

Sadie
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Joined: 19 Oct 2008
{Posts: 73 }

Posted: Tue 21 Oct 2008 17:01 Post subject:

Egmond Codfried wrote:

This is all most interesting to me as I’m researching historical Blacks and coloureds in Europe.

Without starting a new topic I like to say that this discussion reminds me of similar processes as the existence of the Black Dutch: the Black European immigrants who arrived in America in the 17th century. Mike Nassau wrote an Internet article about Black Dutch (Deutsch) and Black Irish. What makes this highly interesting to me is that there were Blacks or at least Black looking people coming from Europe who were not to be treated as the enslaved Africans. And that later on people claimed descent from these Black Dutch to escape slavery or not be treated and segregated as if they were ‘n*gg*rs.’

Some might argue that as long as people are not SSA looking, they are okay! Some even believe those people to be Whites! Rhett Jones (2003: 257-285) writes about coloured American communities as Freejacks, Cape Verdians, Lumbee and Black Seminoles; which had visible Black, Indian and White admixture but under pressure of racism decided to regard themselves as White’s. I guess that they would make sure that the more White looking ones were given front seats.

I’m further reminded of some people of Aruba, a former Dutch colony, who seem to consider themselves White and would for example frown on Aruban women with braided hairstyles. I guess that women with frizzy hair are expected to straighten the kinkiness out. They even deny having any Black ancestors and a slave great-grandmother is sometimes regarded as shameful. Perhaps they also fear the lost of tourism from certain Americans. This I did not fully research but relied on information of people who regularly visit Aruba.

Some of it consistent with what I find in my research about colonial Surinam. But Surinamese have strong and proud traditions around slavery and nobody tries to hide slave ancestors.

Egmond Codfried
Holland

I fail to see what Latinos have to do with Cape Verdeans. You should have started a new thread.

fwsweet
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Location: Palm Coast, FL

Posted: Tue 21 Oct 2008 17:17 Post subject:

Sadie wrote:

I fail to see what Latinos have to do with Cape Verdeans.

The Cape Verdeans are of Portuguese language and culture.

Sadie
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Joined: 19 Oct 2008
{Posts: 73 }

Posted: Tue 21 Oct 2008 17:36 Post subject:

fwsweet wrote:

Sadie wrote:

I fail to see what Latinos have to do with Cape Verdeans.

The Cape Verdeans are of Portuguese language and culture.

Well, I guess technically they fall under Hispanic but they are generally not what springs to mind when you hear the word Latino.

Egmond Codfried
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Joined: 03 Jul 2008
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Posted: Wed 22 Oct 2008 11:21 Post subject:

Sadie wrote:

Egmond Codfried wrote:

I fail to see what Latinos have to do with Cape Verdeans. You should have started a new thread.

This might answer your question. Its from my earlier posting:

Quote:

I have posted a piece over here just to point out that the question of the ethnicity of newcomers in the USA has been dealt with before, and might give more understanding of the present discussion over the ethnicity of US Latino's for example. That was my contribution to the mission of ‘learn and inform.'

This is what I started on egyptsearch.com, about the race of newcomers´ Neither White Nor Black

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000692

Sadie
Regular User

Joined: 19 Oct 2008
{Posts: 73 }

Posted: Wed 22 Oct 2008 16:34 Post subject:

Egmond, thanks for the link and the explanation. Yes I can see how it relates. I think racism in the USA is worse than in Puerto Rico. Not to say that there is absolutely no racism in Puerto Rico towards Africans. For example, African hair is referred to in Puerto Rico as "pelo malo" (bad hair) and some Puerto Ricans do try to marry someone lighter than them in order to "whiten" the family. However, an Afro-Puerto Rican today would never be denied a front-row seat! Our culture is much more important than our color.

fwsweet
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Joined: 26 Nov 2004
{Posts: 5376 }
Location: Palm Coast, FL

Posted: Wed 22 Oct 2008 19:11 Post subject:

Sadie wrote:

Egmond, thanks for the link and the explanation. Yes I can see how it relates. I think racism in the USA is worse than in Puerto Rico. Not to say that there is absolutely no racism in Puerto Rico towards Africans. For example, African hair is referred to in Puerto Rico as "pelo malo" (bad hair) and some Puerto Ricans do try to marry someone lighter than them in order to "whiten" the family. However, an Afro-Puerto Rican today would never be denied a front-row seat! Our culture is much more important than our color.

I think that both of you are conflating "racism" (discrimination based on presumed ancestry) with "colorism" (discrimination based on appearance). "Colorism" (appearance-based discrimination) is so common in PR that it is practically an art form. "Racism" (ancestry-based discrimination regardless of appearance) is unknown.

To illustrate: many doors of opportunity are closed to you in PR if you look "black", even if your actual non-Euro ancestry were New Guinean, say. On the other hand, those same doors open wide if you look completely Euro, even if everyone knows that you have a black (Afro-descended) grandmother. For more on this, see The Rules 3.3.5 through 3.3.8. For even more details on technical categories of discrimination, see The Trouble With “Racism”.

Sadie wrote:

Our culture is much more important than our color.

Sadie, it is considered bad form to use the first person plural in this site. See The Rules 2.4.

Sadie
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Joined: 19 Oct 2008
{Posts: 73 }

Posted: Wed 22 Oct 2008 19:24 Post subject:

Sadie wrote:

Our culture is much more important than our color.

Sadie, it is considered bad form to use the first person plural in this site. See The Rules 2.4.[/quote]

Oh, okay. Amend it to say "The Puerto-Rican culture is much more important than color." Sorry to inject myself in there.

Egmond Codfried
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Joined: 03 Jul 2008
{Posts: 242 }

Posted: Thu 23 Oct 2008 13:24 Post subject:

Sadie wrote:

As a researcher I try not to be tot judgemental, as one would normally be, because one does not want the collection of information and facts to be clouded by feelings. So I have grown insensitive to certain things of the past, while I might be sitting with someone who is moved to tears by the same story. What I mean to say is that I'm so fascinated with the information the USA has to offer about these matters that I even might stop to laugh at certain foolishness, which for the participants was dead serious.

Surinam S.A, is my place of birth, I stayed till my twentieth year, then went to The Netherlands, our former coloniser. All Surinamese are practically coloured and most descend from slaves, or from exploited contract labourers from Asia. Nobody tries to hide this or feel embarrassed about his roots. It's part of the Surinam identity and we take pride in many traditions and culture which started with the slaves. Yet our culture is a mix with some European elements. But the first generation European immigrants already incorporated African customs and speech in their daily live.

There is some racism, politically fostered competition between the 13-14 ethnicities. No discrimination around religion. There is some Colorism among Black’s and folks from India. Anyone who is not pure Asian, they think off themselves as pure but they are not, is called ´Creool.´ I have wondered where the idea of 'Opo yu kleur,' raise your colour originated. Perhaps it started with the coloured masters in the nineteenth century. In general I feel the Surinam mentality is very egalitarian, for which I credit an independence movement 1742/1753 among the Surinamised, second generation plantation owners. This was Enlightened and Republican in nature. With women running the movement, while they were barred from voting and holding public offices. They were however running their own plantations.

sources:

4. Maria Susanna Du Plessis (1739-1795) : dader of slachtoffer?
Codfried, Egmond / 8e bew. dr / Codfried / 2005

5. Belle van Zuylen's vergeten oma: Maria Jacoba van Goor (1687-1737) : een beknopte studie over zwarten en kleurlingen in Europa en Nederland door de eeuwen heen
Codfried, Egmond / 1e verb. dr / Codfried / 2005

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