Caribbean/West Indian ID - U.S. Census 2010

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Caribbean/West Indian ID - U.S. Census 2010
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Richard Miller
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Joined: 26 May 2007
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Location: San Antonio, Texas

Posted: Wed 09 Jul 2008 14:14 Post subject: Re: Caribbean/West Indian ID - U.S. Census 2010

Salsassin wrote:

Let off the hook of what? Discrimination? Those who apply ODR will use it no matter what the census says. It is about self identification and grouping categories.

Caribbean Island cultures have unique characteristics that are separate from most of the mainland.

No, I mean let off the hook of having to be considered black. F*ck culture, I'm talking about SSA ancesty - and if you have a predonderance of it while not having to be considered black, while I have to be when I DON'T have a preponderance of SSA ancestry, I have a problem.

Salsassin
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Posted: Wed 09 Jul 2008 14:20 Post subject: Re: Caribbean/West Indian ID - U.S. Census 2010

Spiral wrote:

They Identify with a Caribbean Culture with an Hispanic flavour.
Despite being " seen " at Caribbean Festivals In North America is their evidence that Spanish speaking Caribbean Citizens consider non Hispanic Caribbean Cultures a part of their own ?

Yes and No. They see elements that are shared, but Anglo and Franco Caribbean cultures are more Afro-oriented because of their demographics. Still part of the Caribbean Diaspora.

We call it cultura antillana. Antilles (read caribbean) culture.

There is a reason why Reggaetton starts in Puerto Rico influenced by it's Jamaican neighbor.

Salsassin
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Posted: Wed 09 Jul 2008 14:22 Post subject: Re: Caribbean/West Indian ID - U.S. Census 2010

Richard Miller wrote:

Salsassin wrote:

Most Caribbeans of predominant SSA consider themselves Black. Your argument isn't holding up much water. Nor your claim that they would be classified as White.

Richard Miller
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Joined: 26 May 2007
{Posts: 400 }
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Posted: Wed 09 Jul 2008 14:29 Post subject:

Spiral wrote:

They are not AA and some of them from particular islands are of Mixed background and with very little to none at all SSA. ODR should not to applied to the group, because when they leave the island Most of the ethnic and class divisions are done away with and they consider themselves West Indian.
You wouldn't consider a European descended West Indian black just because he belongs to a group that has people with SSA would ya ?

I don't think you understood me. In that last paragraph, I'd consider that person white.

However, I'm not talking about white Carribbeans, since I can't say that I'm exactly sure that they want a separate category as bad as black Carribbeans, if at all - afterall, socially speaking, it's only black Carribbeans that stand to benefit from being considered to be a separate entity from their respective "race" in the US.

Richard Miller
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Joined: 26 May 2007
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Location: San Antonio, Texas

Posted: Wed 09 Jul 2008 14:34 Post subject: Re: Caribbean/West Indian ID - U.S. Census 2010

Salsassin wrote:

Most Caribbeans of predominant SSA consider themselves Black. Your argument isn't holding up much water. Nor your claim that they would be classified as White.

I don't see anywhere in this post where you're responding to anything I've said.

What is the effect of a separate Carribbean category? Checking that, instead of black, in the case of Carribbeans with predominant SSA ancestry.

However, working in HR - in various places - where I review applicants, in places where forms have a separate "race" and "hispanic/non-hispanic" item, it has always been policy to mark them "white" if they don't check anything for race - even if they look like Wesley Snipes (though I personally break that by eye-balling, as I consider it to be the lesser of two evils).

Spiral
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Posted: Wed 09 Jul 2008 14:41 Post subject:

Richard Miller wrote:

Spiral wrote:

I understand that you would be "pissed " if a group that is not that much different from you would gain certain benefits that you have been working all your life to achieve .

Salsassin
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Posted: Wed 09 Jul 2008 14:48 Post subject: Re: Caribbean/West Indian ID - U.S. Census 2010

Richard Miller wrote:

Salsassin wrote:

Most Caribbeans of predominant SSA consider themselves Black. Your argument isn't holding up much water. Nor your claim that they would be classified as White.

You have yet to show that Caribbean would be classified as a race. Itr is an ethnic umbrella. They would still mark Black. But not African American.

Of course if they pulled something like they did with Pacific Islanders (makingit a race), I'd be annoyed. Do Hawaiians of Japanese ancestry mark pacific Islander or Asian? What about Europeans raised there?

Spiral
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Posted: Wed 09 Jul 2008 14:49 Post subject:

Quote:

What is the effect of a separate Carribbean category? Checking that, instead of black, in the case of Carribbeans with predominant SSA ancestry.

I think to answer that , one should ask the question what effect has the Caribbean had upon North American Society, then we'll know if they deserve a separate Category.

sagascend
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Joined: 17 Jun 2006
{Posts: 2112 }

Posted: Wed 09 Jul 2008 14:51 Post subject:

Richard Miller wrote:

What is the effect of a separate Carribbean category? Checking that, instead of black, in the case of Carribbeans with predominant SSA ancestry.

Why shouldn't the various ethnic cultures in the U.S. be recognized? Why should people be forced to ascribe to a racial identity if they do not want one? Perhaps others would view it as progress if an Afro-Euro person was forced to check "mulatto" when he'd rather identify as a Jamaican but I would not. I see no reason why categories that suit the identification needs of citizens could not be developed. If the government balks at the expense perhaps the citizenry could decide whether the collection of such statistics is worth their tax dollars.

Since the government insists on categorization a separate Carribean category would actually go a long way to understanding the experiences of these immigrants as distinct from other groups with SSA ancestry. For example, we would have much better data on the Black-White test gap, which is known to differ according to children's ethnic culture. We'd probably understand much more about Hispanics/Latinos if the U.S. government allowed them to denote their ethnic backgrounds.

Richard Miller
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Posted: Wed 09 Jul 2008 14:59 Post subject: Re: Caribbean/West Indian ID - U.S. Census 2010

Salsassin wrote:

Okay, you got me - I wasn't saying that Carribbean would be considered a race, but my arguments are based on that possibility.

Richard Miller
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Joined: 26 May 2007
{Posts: 400 }
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Posted: Wed 09 Jul 2008 15:03 Post subject:

sagascend wrote:

Richard Miller wrote:

What is the effect of a separate Carribbean category? Checking that, instead of black, in the case of Carribbeans with predominant SSA ancestry.

Why shouldn't the various ethnic cultures in the U.S. be recognized?

I'm not saying that they shouldn't. All I'm saying is that those who do not have a predonderance of SSA ancestry should get let off the hook of being black before those who do.

sagascend
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Posted: Wed 09 Jul 2008 15:09 Post subject:

Richard Miller wrote:

sagascend wrote:

Richard Miller wrote:

What is the effect of a separate Carribbean category? Checking that, instead of black, in the case of Carribbeans with predominant SSA ancestry.

Why shouldn't the various ethnic cultures in the U.S. be recognized?

I'm not saying that they shouldn't. All I'm saying is that those who do not have a predonderance of SSA ancestry should get let off the hook of being black before those who do.

Now you know that this Carribean category would do nothing to relieve the current racialist agenda of categorizing people according to the races USAmericans believe exist. As far as having a "preponderance" of SSA, the ODR isn't about how much SSA ancestry you have, but that you are a visibly European with known SSA ancestry and are not Spanish-speaking or Middleastern.

The "hook," as it were, is not a Black category. It is the denigration of SSA-ness that is either overemphasized or minimized depending on the ethnicity and self identity of the person who possesses it.

Richard Miller
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Posted: Wed 09 Jul 2008 15:40 Post subject:

sagascend wrote:

Now you know that this Carribean category would do nothing to relieve the current racialist agenda of categorizing people according to the races USAmericans believe exist.

I wouldn't be so sure about that, seeing as how for some strange reason, Latinos are seen as a "race" (eg, "You're Mexican? I thought you were white!"), so how do we know that a Carribbean category won't engender the same thing? Not that that in itself bothers me, I'm just addressing your point.

sagascend wrote:

As far as having a "preponderance" of SSA, the ODR isn't about how much SSA ancestry you have, but that you are a visibly European with known SSA ancestry and are not Spanish-speaking or Middleastern.

Or Carribbean, if they get their way.

sagascend wrote:

The "hook," as it were, is not a Black category. It is the denigration of SSA-ness that is either overemphasized or minimized depending on the ethnicity and self identity of the person who possesses it.

Maybe, maybe not - in my case, and to make an understatement, "mulatto" indicates the presence of "SSA-ness," while that's not necessarily the case for Latino or Carribbean. To me, all of that is beside the point anyway, as I'm really not concerned with how one feels toward blacks as it relates to why he or she does or does not want to check "black."

divana
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Posted: Wed 09 Jul 2008 23:30 Post subject: Re: Caribbean/West Indian ID - U.S. Census 2010

Salsassin wrote:

dahlin wrote:

Salsassin wrote:

dahlin wrote:

Please join the movement to get all non-Hispanic Caribbean-Americans their own self identifying category on the US Census form. We need to stand up and be counted. Join the movement at Welcome to CaribID and ensure that we are invisible no longer.

http://www.caribid2010.com/

Interesting. Why would Hispanic Caribbeans be excluded?

Because Hispanic Caribbean people in general choose to be counted as Latinos/Hispanic...

But as Caribbean Hispanics still. They still identify with a Caribbean culture as well. Overlapping Umbrella cultures.

The question is whether they identify enough with Caribbean cultures on a whole to want to identify as such on a census. Honestly, if that is a prevailing desire then the population will make it clear. So far, it seems as though their preference is to be primarily associated with other Latinos.

divana
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Location: Somewhere...

Posted: Wed 09 Jul 2008 23:35 Post subject: Re: Caribbean/West Indian ID - U.S. Census 2010

Richard Miller wrote:

Salsassin wrote:

Interesting. Why would Hispanic Caribbeans be excluded?

They already get to not check black, what more do they want?

I can appreciate Carribbeans wanting their own category, but... let's just say that it would be an extreme understatement to say that I'd be totally pissed at the lack of fairness if another group of people with a preponderance of SSA ancestry are let off the hook, while those of who have an equal amount of SSA ancesty and something else - let alone those who have a preponderance of European or other non-SSA ancestry - are still left with ODR.

Utter nonsense. Caribbean people are pushing to be considered our own ethnicity. It has nothing to do with so-called race. It has to do with people originating from a certain region being recognized as a group for a number of reasons which have already been given.

Like every other group, including Hispanics, we will still check so-called race boxes. So nothing is "unfair" to you.

divana
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Posted: Wed 09 Jul 2008 23:40 Post subject: Re: Caribbean/West Indian ID - U.S. Census 2010

Richard Miller wrote:

Salsassin wrote:

Well, then talk about SSA ancestry when appropriate. This is about culture and heritage - about the Caribbean community in this country.

divana
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Location: Somewhere...

Posted: Wed 09 Jul 2008 23:44 Post subject:

Richard Miller wrote:

sagascend wrote:

Richard Miller wrote:

What is the effect of a separate Carribbean category? Checking that, instead of black, in the case of Carribbeans with predominant SSA ancestry.

Why shouldn't the various ethnic cultures in the U.S. be recognized?

I'm not saying that they shouldn't. All I'm saying is that those who do not have a predonderance of SSA ancestry should get let off the hook of being black before those who do.

LOL...are you concerned about Indo-Caribbeans not checking the Asian box and being able to mark Caribbean? What about those of predominant European heritage? Are all these people getting "let off the hook" too?

divana
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Location: Somewhere...

Posted: Wed 09 Jul 2008 23:45 Post subject:

Spiral wrote:

Quote:

What is the effect of a separate Carribbean category? Checking that, instead of black, in the case of Carribbeans with predominant SSA ancestry.

I think to answer that , one should ask the question what effect has the Caribbean had upon North American Society, then we'll know if they deserve a separate Category.

It's significant enough that there is a Caribbean-American Heritage Month. So why not a category?

Richard Miller
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Location: San Antonio, Texas

Posted: Thu 10 Jul 2008 00:51 Post subject:

Bottom line - if you have more SSA ancestry than I do, then I deserve a separate category before you do - I don't give a damn what your "culture" is. It makes no sense whatsoever to give someone with preponderance of SSA ancestry an "escape hatch" while still f*cking me, and everyone else, who has 1/2 or less SSA ancestry.

Richard Miller
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Joined: 26 May 2007
{Posts: 400 }
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Posted: Thu 10 Jul 2008 00:58 Post subject:

dahlin wrote:

Does "one drop" of any of these make you that only? Therein lies the difference.

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