Posted: Tue 25 Nov 2008 14:38 Post subject: Sex roles and marriage choices
girlfromthenc wrote:
Melani23 wrote:
Many early "AA' leaders were mixed and/or White. Due to the ODR/Hypodescent and many White Americans irrational fear of the 'Negro taint', there was little or no chance of large scale seperatism like in other countires. Maroon communities did form, and you have the French-cultured Creoles in the South, these 'mixed' groups were isolated. Many MGM simplyu went Black over time. Today, they exist but their numbers are marginal. Their ancestors either 'passed' (I feel many were White), or they went to the AA side of the colorline. I have met many Creoles with spilt Black/White families with a singular great- grand -parent. Some even went Hispanic by marrying int the Latino community.
Now, many Americans are used to calling mixed people (either bi-racial, MGM, Creole, LSB, etc) by the name 'African-American' unless that person speaks up and says otherwise. I do not see this changing until America gains a good 30% Hispanic population (cultural shift) and an increase in B/W interracial marriages. I do see quads on down being accepted as White - they are in certain cases (looks).
Quote:
But to say "lets all get together and say we are mixed race...blah blah"...uhm...you gonna let everyone from Keanue Reeves to about 80% of black folks join it? Kind of looses meaning and then looses cohesion.
This is why for a multi-racial category to work, it needs to be selective based upon certain, unmistakeable qualifying criteria that other groups, esp. AAs, DO NOT possess. That's why I personlly separate it out by parentage, and to an lesser extent culture. For example, of course there are AAs who are 'Whiter' than me, however, for many, they do not know which ancestor was White/non-Black or it was so long ago, and for some, they never met them. In the case of mulattos (F1), we can call them up anyday of the week. Also, our birth certifcates reflects this reality. And culture is pased down, in large part, by families.....but DNA testing doesn't lie either, and MGM are mixed-raced too. Quandry, I know, but that is why I've always said 'Quadroons' (American type) are the key/or the ones who are trully free to be 'Other' or even 'White' if it came to that. And I do not personaly see many AAs going out of their way to 'claim' people 1/4 or less 'Black' (although quite a few have with Halle's baby thus far....) :?:
Lastly, I will also say this....more Americans are recepetive/open to 'traditionally AAs' calling themselves mixed though (irregardless of parentage). I've witnessed it.
8)
I agree with everything you said except the 30% Hispanic population changing America. You better hope Hispanics are do not reach 30% levels because I see them becoming much more hostile to those they see in 'competition' with their Whiteness. I think this is a huge part of the reason black/hispanic tensions are so high in California- Black men dating White women at very high rates!
I am beginning to see young mixed raced men (like Derek Jeter who are the products of White moms and Black dads) marrying White women a lot. I believe their offspring will consider themselves White and not mixed or Black at all. I don't see a multiracial community in the near future at all. The daughters of these unions normally marry Black men and are assimilating back into the AA community. But this is just what I'm observing in my area and have no studies to back up my findings.
I've noticed that as well. I think it reflects the traditional sex roles in courtship (aggressive male, passive female) being wedded to American racial attitudes. Mulatto males would have little trouble finding white females who are open to a relationship and marriage. Mulatto females seem to be eagerly sought out by aggressive black males. White males are timid by comparison. If the mulatto female is insecure about her looks due to comparisons with white females, she is more open to drifting toward black society, where she will usually be the "belle of the ball."
I think even biracial women tend to be devalued by society as a whole, especially the more African their features are. Most of them have White mothers so I don't think they feel any kind of jealousy or competition with Caucasian women at all. They just realize the reality of things sooner or later!
And before someone brings up Latinos, I have to add that I rarely see Hispanic women dating outside their race either. Even the light skin and Metizo ones. Hispanic interracial relationships are normally reserved for men only too!
And before someone brings up Latinos, I have to add that I rarely see Hispanic women dating outside their race either. Even the light skin and Metizo ones. Hispanic interracial relationships are normally reserved for men only too!
Depends on where you live in the U.S. and the Hispanic ethnic group.
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 {Posts: 1829 } Location: Lookin DC Metro, Feelin Geneva
Posted: Wed 26 Nov 2008 17:46 Post subject:
G-Man wrote:
girlfromthenc wrote:
And before someone brings up Latinos, I have to add that I rarely see Hispanic women dating outside their race either. Even the light skin and Metizo ones. Hispanic interracial relationships are normally reserved for men only too!
Depends on where you live in the U.S. and the Hispanic ethnic group.
Yeah I've seen plenty of Hispanic women with blacks on the East Coast, in Texas (with Mexicans) I rarely saw that, most of them, if dating out were with Anglos.
Joined: 26 May 2007 {Posts: 425 } Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posted: Thu 11 Dec 2008 11:33 Post subject:
girlfromthenc wrote:
I am beginning to see young mixed raced men (like Derek Jeter who are the products of White moms and Black dads) marrying White women a lot. I believe their offspring will consider themselves White and not mixed or Black at all. I don't see a multiracial community in the near future at all. The daughters of these unions normally marry Black men and are assimilating back into the AA community. But this is just what I'm observing in my area and have no studies to back up my findings.
I think that this is due to parentage. Taking into consideration that people tend to be attracted to those who are more like their opposite sex parent, and the majority of mulattoes are born to a white mother and a black father, it follows that a mulatto man is more likely to seek out a white woman, and a mulatto woman is more likely to seek out a black man.
I've noticed that mulatto born to a black father and a white mother is more likely to seek out white men (it is also possible that she grew up listening to her black mother's choice words for black men - I know I did).
I've noticed that as well. I think it reflects the traditional sex roles in courtship (aggressive male, passive female) being wedded to American racial attitudes. Mulatto males would have little trouble finding white females who are open to a relationship and marriage. Mulatto females seem to be eagerly sought out by aggressive black males. White males are timid by comparison. If the mulatto female is insecure about her looks due to comparisons with white females, she is more open to drifting toward black society, where she will usually be the "belle of the ball."
LOL, OMG Powell you are a trip. Seriously. Sometimes I come here just to see what you'll write next.
Any proof that mulatto gals are being courted by "aggressive" black males or is this just more anecdata?
Any proof that mulatto gals are being courted by "aggressive" black males or is this just more anecdata?
I can answer that: No. It's been discussed in many threads in the past and there isn't any. In these discussions I always point out that the mulatta is portrayed as a passive vessel for Negro aggression, which is not only sexist but ridiculous. It's inconceivable, apparently, that such women might actually be active partners in their romantic pursuits. This is same type of logic that White male supremacists use when they harangue about White women with Black men, that those oversexed, agressive you-know-whats are after their women, who are helpless in the face of such bestial power I suppose.
I think anyone who has spent 5 minutes among Black Americans who are not code switching would concede that communication is more verbally and physically expressive (generally, there are serious exceptions). White Americans (again, generally with serious exceptions) are less verbally and physically expressive. How females from a culture are approached by males from that culture tends to vary, and it is likely that males from a culture are slow to change their approach when pursuing out-culture females, especially since the expectation is for them to be the aggressors.
Is it actually true that more and more Black-identified men are choosing White (in the color line sense, not genetic sense) female partners these days? I mean the rate, not the number because all such relationships are increasing. Hasn't the rate of Black male/White female relationships always been higher, about twice that of Black female/White male relationships?
I've noticed that as well. I think it reflects the traditional sex roles in courtship (aggressive male, passive female) being wedded to American racial attitudes. Mulatto males would have little trouble finding white females who are open to a relationship and marriage. Mulatto females seem to be eagerly sought out by aggressive black males. White males are timid by comparison. If the mulatto female is insecure about her looks due to comparisons with white females, she is more open to drifting toward black society, where she will usually be the "belle of the ball."
LOL, OMG Powell you are a trip. Seriously. Sometimes I come here just to see what you'll write next.
Any proof that mulatto gals are being courted by "aggressive" black males or is this just more anecdata?
Probably not proof, but in the social circles I move in women of Afro/European phenotype are courted aggressively by black men. Are these men aggressive? Don't know. Is this at the expense of darker black women? Not really. Are they representative of black men? Probably less so than when I was growing up.
It bears mentioning that white males in general, at least in my experience, are reluctant to approach such women.
Mulatto women (i.e. light-skinned AAs or biracial) women, again in my experience, are actually more attracted to black men than white men. Indeed, in some cases they may, in the way females do, pursue black men.
Well, I was once in love with an AA guy who was VERY dark. Some of you know what happened...
Anyway, I'm now engaged to the guy I met at jury duty back in 2007. We've been engaged since last June.
We're having a non-traditional courthouse wedding in March.
Oh? And did I mention that he is White?
I like black men on an individual basis and they make good friends, but in terms of my own personal experience and what I want in a partner...they aren't for me.
It is true that most white males are more passive in their approach to wooing a woman. When I met him, I was blown away by his good looks and confidence when we spoke.
I will admit I flirted with him a bit in the first email I sent (complimented him on his beautiful eyes).
I'm very shy, but I simply felt like I had to know this person. We hit it off the minute we met.
In terms of biracial women being devalued in comparison to white women...this is one statement that has some truth in it. I have come across a few very nasty white women who tried to put me down and assert their "superiority" in the beauty department. One who did this had breast implants and had a biracial daughter herself with a married man. She was British. The other was a "white" Latina, who was morbidly obese and lived in filth. Her little boy was literally eating dog feces off the KITCHEN floor.
Because I look White but still have some features that are somewhat "non-white", I think that some people will always have issues with me without getting to know me as a person.
I am beginning to see young mixed raced men (like Derek Jeter who are the products of White moms and Black dads) marrying White women a lot. I believe their offspring will consider themselves White and not mixed or Black at all. I don't see a multiracial community in the near future at all. The daughters of these unions normally marry Black men and are assimilating back into the AA community. But this is just what I'm observing in my area and have no studies to back up my findings.
I think that this is due to parentage. Taking into consideration that people tend to be attracted to those who are more like their opposite sex parent, and the majority of mulattoes are born to a white mother and a black father, it follows that a mulatto man is more likely to seek out a white woman, and a mulatto woman is more likely to seek out a black man.
I've noticed that mulatto born to a black father and a white mother is more likely to seek out white men (it is also possible that she grew up listening to her black mother's choice words for black men - I know I did).
Your last line confused me. that contradicts what you said in your prev paragraph. also in the ( ) you do a double take and say her black mother instead of white mother.
Well, I was once in love with an AA guy who was VERY dark. Some of you know what happened...
Anyway, I'm now engaged to the guy I met at jury duty back in 2007. We've been engaged since last June.
We're having a non-traditional courthouse wedding in March.
Oh? And did I mention that he is White?
I like black men on an individual basis and they make good friends, but in terms of my own personal experience and what I want in a partner...they aren't for me.
(In what way? that is a very broad brushing of black men? When you say black men are you dealing with black identified or black as in SSA dominate looks)
It is true that most white males are more passive in their approach to wooing a woman. When I met him, I was blown away by his good looks and confidence when we spoke.
I don't think white men are more passive in their approach to wooing a woman at all. Go to a sports bar on a Friday night especially after the guy has had some to drink. I don't know what kind of white men your talking about. But white dudes can be really aggresive to the point of fighting each other. I see this all the time.
I will admit I flirted with him a bit in the first email I sent (complimented him on his beautiful eyes).
I'm very shy, but I simply felt like I had to know this person. We hit it off the minute we met.
In terms of biracial women being devalued in comparison to white women...this is one statement that has some truth in it. I have come across a few very nasty white women who tried to put me down and assert their "superiority" in the beauty department. One who did this had breast implants and had a biracial daughter herself with a married man. She was British. The other was a "white" Latina, who was morbidly obese and lived in filth. Her little boy was literally eating dog feces off the KITCHEN floor.
Because I look White but still have some features that are somewhat "non-white", I think that some people will always have issues with me without getting to know me as a person.
I wouldn't call White men 'passive' I just think they are not as aggressive as the average Black man.
When I see couples with Black men in them the woman is normally seen as an 'equal' in the realtionship. He pays sometimes, she pays others. Black women are 'praised' for being independent and having their own money (there are a slew of bad names for women who rely on men in the AA community ie Golddigger, chickenhead, broke_______).
On the otherhand White men tend to prefer to pay for meals and have a chuvanist realtionship. White men prize women who are 'arm candy' more than independent women. From the outside it looks like the average White man is the perfect gentlemen. The downside that I've notice is that White men are much more critical of their partners than the average Black man. I've seen some of them be verbally abuse to White girlfriends about the smallest imperfections. I think that is why White women are much more insecure about their bodies than Black women in America.
I don't know pianoplayer or her situation, but maybe she is just physically more attracted to White men than Black men. It is not unusal to hear men from every race speak about their physical attraction to women with European-like features, so I don't think it should be strange nor wrong for a woman half White to be attracted to men who also fit this discription. To me, it seems perfectly natural for the average biracial woman to prefer mates with strong European features considering they were brought up watching their father 'fawn' over their (White) mother. But I don't think biracial women act on these impulses mostly because of the general devaluation of women of African descent in this country, and they culturally have more in common with Black men than White men.
I have no problem with the way black men look, since you referred to SSA phenotype.
What I do have a problem with is the way they have treated me. I have never been treated well by men of color, not even as a child.
With that said, I am speaking from personal experience of my romantic involvements in the past. I have nothing against black-looking or black-identified men, no matter where they are from, but I have no interest or attraction to black men anymore. I find that individually they can be cool guys but whatever attraction or interest I once had simply isn't there anymore.
Not to offend anyone, but I outgrew that some time ago.
As to how you and I view the way white men approach women...we will have to agree to disagree on that one.
I happen to be a woman and in my experience, it is typically black and Hispanic men (all kinds) who tend to be the least shy. There are exceptions, of course, but this is mostly what I've noticed. This is one reason my fiance stood out, because of his confidence. He didn't hit on me or make inappropriate comments...he simply seemed to enjoy talking with me and we took it from there.
I did most of the flirting, . Nope...he was pretty sober too!
Well, girlfromthenc, I will tell you this...my father never "fawned" over my mother.
He was absent from my childhood most of the time. My parents divorced and he decided that his responsibility was over since she had custody.
My father is also biracial, BTW. Perhaps I should clarify that the black ancestry I have is actually from Jamaica. None of my ancestors who were enslaved were American.
My mother actually lived a similar life to many women of color. She has had a heart condition since she was 30 years old because of all the strenuous work she did to support both of us when I was a kid. She has also been close friends with many Black women over the years. Her best friend is a Jamaican lady who lives in Indiana. Race and color has never been an issue, because they see one another as sisters.
I agree that women of African descent have had a raw deal in this country. I talk about this with my fiance all the time. He never understood it at first, but I believe he is starting to come around.
As to my attraction...I have always felt that certain White men embodied what I like in a partner, physically and otherwise. This is not to say that I have never been deeply in love with a Black man or two...quite the contrary. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that most White men have treated me with a level of respect that sadly, most men of color have not.
And this is a shame, because I adored black men as a young girl and I wanted them to love me. My stepfather treated me like trash. So did my ex. So did boys at school.
However, I'm not bitter towards black men because I judge people on an individual basis.
I simply realize that my relationships with black men have not been healthy or positive.
My husband-to-be is White, but this is not the reason I'm with him. I happen to admire who he is and the way he makes me feel.
Physically, he is much taller than my ex and in better shape, despite being much older. I've always liked tall men.
He is definitely not a passive person. He is somewhat traditional in his views of relationships but he IS older than me by 14 years and he was raised in a fairly conservative home by Southern Baptist parents.
Contrary to what you say, he prefers independent women to weak ones.
He likes shapely women, not skinny ones. He likes women with brains. He does prefer to pay for meals but he also opens doors, holds my hand, and shows affection openly.
He is only critical of the way I do things sometimes but he is never critical of my physical appearance.
By contrast, it was the black and Hispanic men I encountered who were the most cruel when it came to my looks.
I've had severe body image problems since childhood. I suffered with anorexia and bulimia as a young girl. I thought I was ugly and that no one would ever love me.
I cannot complain about how my fiance has treated me because he has been nothing but kind. We have mutual respect and trust.
My post was more of a response to Gemini's suggestion that White men were as aggressive as Black men when pursuing women. I may have unfairly used pianoplayer, as an 'example' of mixed raced women in general. In no way did I mean to imply that I knew pianoplayer or her family's history of heart disease and mixed raced carribeans and high school drama with black men (west indian I assume).................I'm just some lowly AA woman reflecting on watching White men and black men with their women.
Joined: 19 Jan 2006 {Posts: 223 } Location: Southern California
Posted: Wed 14 Jan 2009 00:55 Post subject:
^^^^This then, raises a couple of questions that I have. I've been in this country (USA) my whole life and did not date very often. So *if*, for the sake of argument, there indeed *is* a difference in "agression" among AA males and white males while pursuing a mate then a)why? and b)from where did this difference arise? Is it due to , say, socioeconomic class instead of race?
Also, I've heard it thrown around that "Black-men-are-scared-of-a *smart*-Black-woman". Why is it necessarily just black? I've heard this genaralization numerous times that there are some men *period* who are intimidated by intelligent women *period*, irrespective of ethnicty.
^^^^This then, raises a couple of questions that I have. I've been in this country (USA) my whole life and did not date very often. So *if*, for the sake of argument, there indeed *is* a difference in "agression" among AA males and white males while pursuing a mate then a)why? and b)from where did this difference arise? Is it due to , say, socioeconomic class instead of race?
Also, I've heard it thrown around that "Black-men-are-scared-of-a *smart*-Black-woman". Why is it necessarily just black? I've heard this genaralization numerous times that there are some men *period* who are intimidated by intelligent women *period*, irrespective of ethnicty.
I agree with you there,
I believe it is a class/gender thing.
First off, men are always seen as the 'aggressor' the pursuer, and that was never a racial indicator, it's always been.
What is the 'stereotype' of women walking by construction sites? Cat calls whistles and come her baby
A lot of my social circle includes Italian/Siciilian men and they are very 'aggressive' and forward in their approach to women.
As well when it comes to Native Italy, it's been stated and noted that black women are aggressively pursued by Italian men.
I wish I could tell my 'black' side that it's supposed to be more aggressive and overpower the white side so I can get more dates.
I just don't believe it, and I'm a dude with a very mixed social circle for all my life and I don't buy that black men are more aggressive.
How certain ethnic groups express that is worth looking into. But I don't see much different from country guys, black, latino, italian white.
Some guys may be more forward everywhere, and other only in situations that allow it ie bars and clubs.
Also, I've heard it thrown around that "Black-men-are-scared-of-a *smart*-Black-woman". Why is it necessarily just black? I've heard this genaralization numerous times that there are some men *period* who are intimidated by intelligent women *period*, irrespective of ethnicty.
It's MOST men in my opinion. Not in the abstract sense, but if a woman is thought to be (or is) more intelligent/succesful/ambitious/independent than the man interested in her, there will be problems. Most men say that they like "smart women" but dig a little deeper and very few would like a woman perceived to be "smarter than them."
A truly secure, confident man isn't scared of smart women. In fact, they seek them out and see them as assets. Unfortunately, LOTS of men still need to feel superior to the women in their lives, and it's not like these men spend a lot of time self-analyzing to figure out why they seek to diminish women that they are attracted to.
I will say that my experience with AA men and some Carribean men is that they are more used to the notion of an "independent woman." Doesn't mean they liked it in reality.
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