Posted: Wed 01 Oct 2008 23:10 Post subject: Interracial Marriage: Yes, It's Still Hard
Quote:
Interracial Marriage: Yes, It's Still Hard
By Robyn Preston-McGee , The Frisky
Posted on September 30, 2008, Printed on October 1, 2008
http://www.alternet.org/story/100981/
I am white. My husband is black. Our daughter is ... well ... she's like that great flavor of "World Class Chocolate" at Baskin-Robbins, which is a sweet, delectable combination of white and dark chocolate, blended to perfection. When the grocery store checker, or the dentist, or our insurance salesman, or the shoe store clerk, or one of my college students who sees her picture in my office asks where she gets her curly hair or if she's "mixed," I usually reply, "Yes, she's biracial," (for I've always thought "mixed" to be used only for dogs and cocktails). I answer this question three or four times a day and often wonder if I should just stick a sign on her that reads "Yes, my father is black."
The journey to my interracial family has been both horrifying and humorous. One thing I'm sure of is that opposition to my modern marriage is nothing like the venom I faced as a dating teenager in rural Oklahoma. I had a few boyfriends (one of them Latino, another Spanish and French), but only the "Black" one resulted in humiliation and, in one instance, physical violence. The townsfolk whispered, some friends abandoned me, and my father disowned me.
When I moved to Mississippi for graduate school and began dating my husband, I expected to find the same kind of rejection. Some of it was still there. We found "For Rent" houses to be suspiciously already rented when we arrived for a tour. Every now and then, someone would tell us to "stick to your own kind," followed by the obligatory tobacco-spit. But generally speaking, we got by without incident.
When my husband and I finally decided to take the plunge after dating for four years, we eloped. I think deep down we were worried about the "if anyone here can show just cause" part. My father's side of the family was horrified, my mother's tolerant, but not overjoyed. When my grandmother showed our wedding photo to a family member, they asked, "What nationality is he?" Perhaps they were hoping she would respond with the more exotic-sounding "Nigerian" or "Haitian." Nope. Just plain ol' African-American.
When my husband and I moved to Missouri, I wasn't sure what to expect. We live in a suburb of Kansas City, and while I have the great fortune to work among some very warm, open-minded colleagues, my experiences in middle-America suburbia have not always been positive. I've become keenly aware that as a white person, other white people feel perfectly comfortable revealing their prejudices to me, unaware of my family situation. Not long ago, a new neighbor moved in across the street. My husband was away, and, being the good neighbor I am, I went to greet him.
As we talked, I asked what prompted his move to our neighborhood. "Well," he replied, "there just got to be too many blacks on our block and we figured it was time to get out."
My reply? "Well, er, um ... .how 'bout those Chiefs!" I would like to say that I had a witty comeback for him, that I embarrassed him for his racist comment. After all, my husband and I have been married almost ten years. I should be more prepared. Instead, all I could offer was some weak analysis of our beloved Chiefs' offensive line.
My silence, however, made "the reveal" that much sweeter. Imagine the look of astonishment on my neighbor's face the next day when my husband and I drove by, smiling and waving. The rebellious side of me was thinking about that sweet revenge, but the Oklahoma teenager in me was afraid of the fallout.
Fortunately, the only fallout was in the form of an awkward apology to me (not my husband) from that neighbor. In fact, he's become somewhat of a friend and we've managed to bridge whatever gaps he thought existed in his old neighborhood. But I can't offer the same happy ending when it comes to my family. My marriage and the subsequent birth of my daughter solidified my father's "disownership" of me.
All of this is not to whine about the opposition I've faced for marrying the person I married. It's nothing compared to the discrimination racial minorities face everyday in America. But when my white students, for example, joyously remark that "racism is a thing of the past," I ask them to consider how their own parents would react if they brought home a black person to marry. A flash of awareness comes across their faces ... and I already know their answer.
Posted: Wed 01 Oct 2008 23:57 Post subject: Re: Interracial Marriage: Yes, It's Still Hard
Robyn Preston-McGee wrote:
when my white students, for example, joyously remark that "racism is a thing of the past," I ask them to consider how their own parents would react if they brought home a black person to marry. A flash of awareness comes across their faces ... and I already know their answer.
Interesting that she does not mention the reaction of A-A women to her marriage (or the reaction of her future in-laws to their courtship). According to Randall Kennedy, Interracial Intimacies: Sex, Marriage, Identity, and Adoption (New York: Pantheon Books, 2003), African Americans on average are as hostile to intermarriage as are Whites. For some reason, such hostility is not usually called "racism."
Posted: Thu 02 Oct 2008 13:15 Post subject: Re: Interracial Marriage: Yes, It's Still Hard
fwsweet wrote:
Robyn Preston-McGee wrote:
when my white students, for example, joyously remark that "racism is a thing of the past," I ask them to consider how their own parents would react if they brought home a black person to marry. A flash of awareness comes across their faces ... and I already know their answer.
Interesting that she does not mention the reaction of A-A women to her marriage (or the reaction of her future in-laws to their courtship). According to Randall Kennedy, Interracial Intimacies: Sex, Marriage, Identity, and Adoption (New York: Pantheon Books, 2003), African Americans on average are as hostile to intermarriage as are Whites. For some reason, such hostility is not usually called "racism."
Some black American intellectuals have successfully convinced many people on the Left to adhere to the politically correct myth that "blacks" cannot be "racist" because they have no "power."
Posted: Thu 02 Oct 2008 14:27 Post subject: Re: Interracial Marriage: Yes, It's Still Hard
Powell wrote:
Some black American intellectuals have successfully convinced many people on the Left to adhere to the politically correct myth that "blacks" cannot be "racist" because they have no "power."
I also have a problem with semantic quibbles. But Pitts's argument is more subtle, although just as invalid.
You say: Mr. X is a (Black) racist.
Pitts says: Not so. Historically White people have oppressed Black people far worse than Blacks could ever oppress Whites. (Presumably talking only about North America within the past 500 years).
You say: Yeah but we were not talking about history. We are talking about Mr. X.
Pitts says: Let's allow that black folks can, indeed, be racist. Or prejudiced, intolerant, biased, bigoted or any other word that floats your boat. ... when you find a black bigot, feel free to censure and ostracize him or her as the circumstance warrants.
You say: Oh. Okay. In that case, Mr. X is a (Black) racist.
Pitts says: Not so. Historically White people have oppressed Black people far worse than Blacks could ever oppress Whites.
And round and round it goes.
Actually, the claim of "racism" was not what attracted my attention. What I noticed about the article was its blind-spot towards Black and female hostility to intermarriage.
Everyone who was even glanced at the phenomenon knows that U.S. society is viciously hostile to B/W intermarriage.
Everyone who has looked into it discovers that A-As are just as hostile as Whites, if not more so. (Consider that states with the lowest fraction of A-As have the highest intermarriage rates, because where there are so few A-As, they must either outmarry or stay single.)
And anyone who has seriously studied it finds that hostility comes mostly from same-sex, opposite "race" individuals. Intermarried Black men are attacked mostly by White men (secondarily by Black women). Intermarried White men are attacked mostly by Black men (secondarily by White women). Intermarried Black women are attacked mostly by White women (secondarily by Black men). And intermarried White women are attacked mostly by Black women (secondarily by White men). I think it is because in those cases normal intra-sex competition for mates reinforces hostility towards exogamy.
What struck me as odd was that the story was about the fourth situation and yet the author does not mention hostility from Black women. It is doubly odd because the only response to the article by a woman in the same situation talks only about that. Is the author oblivious to Black female hostility? Does she consider it unimportant? Is it irrelevant to her main point? I just though it odd, that's all.
Last edited by fwsweet on Thu 02 Oct 2008 15:27; edited 3 times in total
Captivating article, thank you for sharing that.
The way I see it is, people aren't nearly as racist as they used to be. It's got to a point where out right remarks/comments or obvious body language that would suggest it is virtually wiped out. However it's not to the point where people would want to see cross racial dating/marrying. In other words most mono-racials aren't racist but they'll only go so far, once we talk about intimacy or sensual feelings it's a whole other ball game.
they'll only go so far, once we talk about intimacy or sensual feelings it's a whole other ball game.
Interestingly, this social attitude reversed about 150 years ago. Before then, in a society dominated by White males (neither women nor non-Whites had full civil rights), interracial sex was tolerated. Many articles (fiction and reality) described the sensuality and attractiveness of Coloured women. And in some regions (along the French-speaking Gulf coast and former Spanish colonies of Florida and the southwest) the courts accepted and regulated White male / Coloured female extramarital relationships. Laws provided some legal protection to the female and the children. Formal marriage, on the other hand, was unthinkable and a criminal offense in most jurisdictions.
A century and a half ago, it was okay for a White man to fall in love (or lust) with a Coloured woman, but it was not okay to marry across the line. Today, I wonder if it is shifting the other way. Is it possible that interracial dating is still frowned upon, but intermarriage is becoming more acceptable?
Joined: 24 Sep 2008 {Posts: 102 } Location: Santiago, DR
Posted: Fri 03 Oct 2008 22:07 Post subject:
As I'm white and my wife is black (at least in the US) from the Dom Rep after we got married in the DR I decided it was best to move to a hispanic area rather than Charleston, SC where I grew up for the very reason that I knew we would be uncomfortable. I chose Orlando and for the most part I would say it is as good a place for intermaried couples as one can find in the States (I would imagine). I think this is due to the large number of hispanics in the area and there penchant for intermarrying.
Funny thing is, if I spoke English in the presence of people whenever we would go out we got more attention from whites and blacks as opposed to when I mainly spoke Spanish, Americans generally payed less attention to us. It as if Americans still find intermarrying something of a big deal among Americans, but among Hispanics, it's ok.
To continue, in our time in the SE US(5 years) there was only one instance of that someone made a racist remark, and that was by a middle age white lady in a Mall in Orlando. Other than that no one ever said anything unappropriate, but what always bothered me is the amount of stares we got - especially in SC - it unnerved me. What is funny is that a black friend of mine who has a white wife said he liked the attention because he assumed people thought he was an athlete, haha!
We eventually returned to the DR not for any racially caused reason, but just to make life easier on my wife who was not adapting well to life in the US. Here in the DR, mixed marriages are the norm. In fact, even the few whites that are here seem to prefer mates of other color. We feel at home for this reason here. I wonder how long it will take the States to get to this point?
Joined: 24 Sep 2008 {Posts: 102 } Location: Santiago, DR
Posted: Fri 03 Oct 2008 23:55 Post subject:
I would aslo like to clarify that there is racism in the DR, but at a relatively small level comparing it to the US. Most of it is in the small "white" community, which is estimated to be around 5 to 10 % of the total population. Sometimes, people visit the DR and witness what appears to be racism (among the small white poplation) and assume that it is endemic. Unfortunately this does not make sense to judge the people as a whole for a small minority at best even they hold an inordinate amount of influence in politics and business.
As far as the US goes, I think with the growing of the hispanic community, interracial marriages will be increasingly more common, and thus socially acceptable. Of course, I'm sure there will always be "enclaves" of racist areas, but overtime their influence can be mitigated.
I'm hopeful in the next two generations attitudes will be much more open. Also, as much as I am a conservative and Christian, I will have to concede as Hollywood shows more and more mixed race marriages in movies attitudes will change for the better. Also, it can't hurt that very attractive women like Beyonce, Hally Berry and Alicia Keys are certainly making some of these white racist types change their position.
While it's not uncommon for blacks to oppose interracial marriage, I've never heard of a black person who disowned their son or daughter for marrying a white person. Afterall, many older black people would be delighted to have grandchildren with light skin and good hair.
On the other hand, many whites oppose interracial marriage because they think black genes are dominant or inferior in some way.
While it's not uncommon for blacks to oppose interracial marriage, I've never heard of a black person who disowned their son or daughter for marrying a white person. Afterall, many older black people would be delighted to have grandchildren with light skin and good hair.
True. African Americans (I won't comment on other blacks) are often hysterical in their opposition to interracial marriage and relationships with whites or others, but whites and other non-black's lack of a similarly vociferous opposition to such relationships is due largely, IMO, to the lack of a prospect in their minds of such a thing happening…….When it does……
BlackHaze wrote:
On the other hand, many whites oppose interracial marriage because they think black genes are dominant or inferior in some way.
True. There's the belief that the children cannot be part white in any way or connected to the non-black side. Plus interracial marriage is an indication that their (female) children have no respect for themselves. You know the idea that white women (and other women) who marry black men are losers in some way.
On the other hand, many whites oppose interracial marriage because they think black genes are dominant or inferior in some way.
True. There's the belief that the children cannot be part white in any way or connected to the non-black side. Plus interracial marriage is an indication that their (female) children have no respect for themselves. You know the idea that white women (and other women) who marry black men are losers in some way.
I agree. Although I know of no serious study that has collected data on this phenomenon, I have heard such remarks from (non-A-A) friends regarding a non-A-A woman marrying or dating an A-A man. Specifically, that the women lack self-respect or are "trailer trash" or are losers in some other way.
I should add that many black folks think the same way too.
People who think this way employ questionable logic to justify their position: only trashy white (or non-black) women deal romantically with black men. You're dealing with a black man and you are white (or non-black) therefore you are trashy or some loser. Proof that you are trash is the fact that you're involved romantically with a black man.
I always chime in on these people who are in multiracial marriages or who have parents of different ethnic groups and how hard they say it is and how they grew up neither this nor that. They are not special, new,nor unique. My maternal grandmother was White, actually Black American, but looked 100 % European White and she married a Kinte Kunte look-alike. If these grandparents of mine were alive today, they would be about 110 yrs. old today. There was nothing new about them then and there is nothing new around here about people like them now. While, I can't say someone's experience is true, false, or just their imagination, I think if any so-called Bi-racial kids have "problems" adjusting , or people in mixed -ethnic marriages, have "problems," the problem is with them . You cannot push your lifestyle on people and a society that is not open to YOUR lifestyle choice. You really cannot make people change for you or accept you . If you are in one of these marriages, move someplace where you are accepted and not noticed. NY state, CA, New Orleans, FL, TX, Denver , are some states and cities where society is mostly open and people blend. It would be great if all places were open, but some are not and there is really nothing you can do to open and change other's opinions. If you feel that you want to put yourself out there and make peope see your lifestyle,fine. Go for it. Some opinions take years , decades to change. Don't complain. I noticed the author said they dated while in Mississippi. They moved to Kansas City. Maybe these places were not so open . What can you do? Stay and fight it. Move where your choice is more accepted and you are not even noticed. Gay guys and their kids, mixed ethnic marriages, children and people of different ethnic groups, White couples, Black couples and their families being real friends and neighbors socializing, Pasasdena, CA or Vidor ,Texas ? I think Pasadena, CA.
Posted: Mon 06 Oct 2008 19:42 Post subject: Re: Interracial Marriage: Yes, It's Still Hard
fwsweet wrote:
Robyn Preston-McGee wrote:
when my white students, for example, joyously remark that "racism is a thing of the past," I ask them to consider how their own parents would react if they brought home a black person to marry. A flash of awareness comes across their faces ... and I already know their answer.
Interesting that she does not mention the reaction of A-A women to her marriage (or the reaction of her future in-laws to their courtship). According to Randall Kennedy, Interracial Intimacies: Sex, Marriage, Identity, and Adoption (New York: Pantheon Books, 2003), African Americans on average are as hostile to intermarriage as are Whites. For some reason, such hostility is not usually called "racism."
I agree that is interesting she did not mention her future -in-laws reaction.
That is a big part of her story that is missing. Did they have an opinion? Liked her? Did not like her ? Did she leave out that part of the story because it is just assumed that the Black family of a Black male child is naturally overjoyed. I mentioned a Black male because it is assumed a Black female's family is not so overjoyed . I agree with Randall Kennedy's book.
My personal opinion: It makes no difference to me who people date/marry. I always say just be with the person who you have things in common with, be real, be honest, don't knock other people's choice or ethnic groups or the opposite gender of your ethnic group.
Hi everyone! A friend of mine sent me a link to this forum because I wrote the article you're all discussing and she thought I might be interested in some of the commentary. If you don't mind, I'd like to respond to some of your concerns and questions because they do seem quite genuine.
First of all, some of you expressed concern over my lack of attention to the response by African American women to my marriage. The reason I didn't address this is quite simple: I have had no response. I agree that the perception of African American women is that, in general, they are opposed to marriage between a black man and a white woman. I am not naive to this idea and had always had this perception as well. But my experiences have not corroborated that. I'm sure there have been some negative reaction, but is has not been blatant enough to warrant my attention. Yes, even in Mississippi! I've had many black women in my classes (I'm a college professor) who have expressed concern over that perception, so I think it's a bit unfair to generalize about what black women might or might not think. Just as I try not to generalize about what white men (particularly those of my parents' generation) might think of our relationship as well.
Also, there were some questions about why I hadn't discussed the reaction of my husband's family. Two reasons: first, because they were, indeed, very warm and welcoming (my husband's younger sister included). My race has never even come up in discussion with my husband or with me. The purpose of my article was to discuss the challenges still faced by interracial couples in 2008--not to espouse the joys of our everyday lives (which largely overshadow any negativity we experience). And since my relationship with his family is a good one, I didn't see a need in addressing it. Secondly, the article was intended to highlight my own experiences, not those of my husband's; thus, I didn't feel it necessary (or really even appropriate) to include his family in a published article.
Finally, and this is for Creole GAL, I appreciate your view that interracial couples are nothing new and should stop acting like they are special. I agree. But when you say that we should not "push our lifestyle on people" who won't accept us, I'm not exactly sure what you mean. I've never pushed anyone to adopt my "lifestyle" nor have I ever wanted anyone to change their mind about it. What does bother me, however, is ending up in the emergency room from a broken nose (a gift from my father when he found out about my interracial relationship) or receiving unsolicited "stick with your own kind" advice from people on the street. In that case, they are the ones pushing a lifestyle on me....not the other way around. Finally Creole GAL, your advice to "just move to another place where you are more accepted," is much easier said than done. Not many people can just pick up and move. Job and family responsibilities often dictate that couples/families remain where they are. Couples can't just keep moving everytime they run into problems. But you're absolutely right that biracial children and interracial families are nothing new under the sun. I certainly don't spend my days bemoaning the fact that I'm a part of one.
Finally, I'd just like to say that as my article states, I was in no way intending to whine/complain about my marriage or the reactions to it. Those negative reactions are few and far between, even in Deep South America. What I did mean to show, however, is that race is still a part of our national dialogue, rightly or wrongly, positively or negatively. Look at this site, for example: an entire site devoted to the issue of race? And this isn't the only one. The fact that we post to a board like this indicates, to me at least, that race is still a topic of interest for some people.
Thank you all for reading my article and responding. It was nice to see my piece spark some dialogue!
I love it when original authors stop by! Nothing like hearing it from the horse's mouth.
Welcome to ODR, Robyn.
BlackHaze wrote:
I've never heard of a black person who disowned their son or daughter for marrying a white person.
This happened in the AA side of my family - my uncle disowned my cousin for marrying a White man. Granted, the most egregious offense was that he was a police officer but no one actually believes that. had my cousin come home with a Black cop that he would have said nothing but "welcome to the family."
And for anyone who believes that grandchildren with "light skin and good hair" soften AA grandparents here is another example that colorism goes in all directions. My uncle dotes on his darker skinned more SSA looking grandkids and barely tolerates his little visibily mixed grandson, who also happens to look just like him.
Hi everyone! A friend of mine sent me a link to this forum because I wrote the article you're all discussing and she thought I might be interested in some of the commentary. If you don't mind, I'd like to respond to some of your concerns and questions because they do seem quite genuine.
First of all, some of you expressed concern over my lack of attention to the response by African American women to my marriage. The reason I didn't address this is quite simple: I have had no response. I agree that the perception of African American women is that, in general, they are opposed to marriage between a black man and a white woman. I am not naive to this idea and had always had this perception as well. But my experiences have not corroborated that. I'm sure there have been some negative reaction, but is has not been blatant enough to warrant my attention. Yes, even in Mississippi! I've had many black women in my classes (I'm a college professor) who have expressed concern over that perception, so I think it's a bit unfair to generalize about what black women might or might not think. Just as I try not to generalize about what white men (particularly those of my parents' generation) might think of our relationship as well.
Also, there were some questions about why I hadn't discussed the reaction of my husband's family. Two reasons: first, because they were, indeed, very warm and welcoming (my husband's younger sister included). My race has never even come up in discussion with my husband or with me. The purpose of my article was to discuss the challenges still faced by interracial couples in 2008--not to espouse the joys of our everyday lives (which largely overshadow any negativity we experience). And since my relationship with his family is a good one, I didn't see a need in addressing it. Secondly, the article was intended to highlight my own experiences, not those of my husband's; thus, I didn't feel it necessary (or really even appropriate) to include his family in a published article.
Finally, and this is for Creole GAL, I appreciate your view that interracial couples are nothing new and should stop acting like they are special. I agree. But when you say that we should not "push our lifestyle on people" who won't accept us, I'm not exactly sure what you mean. I've never pushed anyone to adopt my "lifestyle" nor have I ever wanted anyone to change their mind about it. What does bother me, however, is ending up in the emergency room from a broken nose (a gift from my father when he found out about my interracial relationship) or receiving unsolicited "stick with your own kind" advice from people on the street. In that case, they are the ones pushing a lifestyle on me....not the other way around. Finally Creole GAL, your advice to "just move to another place where you are more accepted," is much easier said than done. Not many people can just pick up and move. Job and family responsibilities often dictate that couples/families remain where they are. Couples can't just keep moving everytime they run into problems. But you're absolutely right that biracial children and interracial families are nothing new under the sun. I certainly don't spend my days bemoaning the fact that I'm a part of one.
Finally, I'd just like to say that as my article states, I was in no way intending to whine/complain about my marriage or the reactions to it. Those negative reactions are few and far between, even in Deep South America. What I did mean to show, however, is that race is still a part of our national dialogue, rightly or wrongly, positively or negatively. Look at this site, for example: an entire site devoted to the issue of race? And this isn't the only one. The fact that we post to a board like this indicates, to me at least, that race is still a topic of interest for some people.
Thank you all for reading my article and responding. It was nice to see my piece spark some dialogue!
Welcome! I'm glad you stopped by to give us the true scoop on your experiences!
Posted: Fri 31 Oct 2008 13:05 Post subject: "Trashy" women
G-Man wrote:
I should add that many black folks think the same way too.
People who think this way employ questionable logic to justify their position: only trashy white (or non-black) women deal romantically with black men. You're dealing with a black man and you are white (or non-black) therefore you are trashy or some loser. Proof that you are trash is the fact that you're involved romantically with a black man.
Have you found that many of those people would be only too eager for a "light-skinned" person to marry into the family as long as that person identifies as "black"?
Posted: Tue 18 Nov 2008 15:33 Post subject: To Mr. Sweet
fwsweet wrote:
sammy wrote:
they'll only go so far, once we talk about intimacy or sensual feelings it's a whole other ball game.
Interestingly, this social attitude reversed about 150 years ago. Before then, in a society dominated by White males (neither women nor non-Whites had full civil rights), interracial sex was tolerated. Many articles (fiction and reality) described the sensuality and attractiveness of Coloured women. And in some regions (along the French-speaking Gulf coast and former Spanish colonies of Florida and the southwest) the courts accepted and regulated White male / Coloured female extramarital relationships. Laws provided some legal protection to the female and the children. Formal marriage, on the other hand, was unthinkable and a criminal offense in most jurisdictions.
A century and a half ago, it was okay for a White man to fall in love (or lust) with a Coloured woman, but it was not okay to marry across the line. Today, I wonder if it is shifting the other way. Is it possible that interracial dating is still frowned upon, but intermarriage is becoming more acceptable?
To be honest, White women are more open-minded and tolerant than her male counterpart when it comes to interracial dating/marriage. Black men even more so than Black women.
Could it also be that White men have most to lose when they interracially married than if they only have a fling?
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