Joined: 07 Feb 2007 {Posts: 1301 } Location: Lookin DC Metro, Feelin Geneva
Posted: Mon 10 Nov 2008 03:30 Post subject: My One Drop Experience
I had an interesting time tonight and felt I should share it.
My wife met a older lady at the Japanese Embassy, here in the DC area. Her American husband is a retired ex-diplomat to a small African nation. He worked his way up through the civil service (starting at OMB in 1962). He eventually made his way to diplomatic security at the State Department and after 25 years was named a diplomat under the Clinton Administration.
I went to their home out in Loudon country. I had met the wife, but never the husband. A very tall broad chested older gentle men met me at the door. He had salt and pepper hair, thin, wavy (not curly)...he had a long aquiline nose and a fairly long but narrow face. He had blue-green eyes and he appeared tan, but no more tan than the typical Italian American on Staten Island, slightly olive in complexion. Basically, this man, but for his physical size, could easily walk about any small town on any coast of the Mediterranean and be taken as a local. He had a slight southern accent, which tipped me off to his place of birth, which was near Richmond, VA.
As our wives spoken in Japanese, he and I began to talk. I talked to this man about his life experience overseas, current political affairs, and home improvement for an hour.
He then tells me he graduated from Howard in 1961 and then he said "no too many brothas like me" were working in the State Department when I started there. He said it was work there or go to work at Customs in the South, but white folks were real racist back then and I was interested in that.
I was dumbfounded. I didn't want to offend the man, but I wanted to yell out "YOU ARE BLACK!?!?!? WHAT THE #*$#*#???"
I'm usually pretty good about picking up facial features, expressions, mannerisms, not just with Americans; I can often tell Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese apart better than my Japanese wife. I definately can usually identify an African American.
If this guy didn't say he was a "brotha from Howard" I would have left that house thinking he was just a white man.
It was really surreal. It would be like being at Robert DiNero's house and he came out and said "hey I'm a brotha too" and was dead serious and started talking about how he feared Jim Crow and went to a HBCU...etc.
I mean the guy looked that white, actually more white, he had nearly blue eyes. LOL
I told my wife he was black when we got in the car she thought I was trying to make some type of joke.
Before I left the guy said he had some contacts in the government and brothas need to look out for each other, despite Obama... He said if I see anything to let him know and he would see what he could do.
I was still dumbfounded thinking "ahhh...but...he's black...okay I'm talking to a black man...uh...really??"
Just weird.
This man was not "one droped" by anyone or he never complained about that. He explained he came from a "black family" in Richmond and his father was an accountant, mother was a nurse, etc. He considered himself black and always tried to work toward black American uplift.
Last edited by Dragon Horse on Mon 10 Nov 2008 11:50; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Mon 10 Nov 2008 14:12 Post subject: Re: My One Drop Experience
Dragon Horse wrote:
I had an interesting time tonight and felt I should share it.
My wife met a older lady at the Japanese Embassy, here in the DC area. Her American husband is a retired ex-diplomat to a small African nation. He worked his way up through the civil service (starting at OMB in 1962). He eventually made his way to diplomatic security at the State Department and after 25 years was named a diplomat under the Clinton Administration.
I went to their home out in Loudon country. I had met the wife, but never the husband. A very tall broad chested older gentle men met me at the door. He had salt and pepper hair, thin, wavy (not curly)...he had a long aquiline nose and a fairly long but narrow face. He had blue-green eyes and he appeared tan, but no more tan than the typical Italian American on Staten Island, slightly olive in complexion. Basically, this man, but for his physical size, could easily walk about any small town on any coast of the Mediterranean and be taken as a local. He had a slight southern accent, which tipped me off to his place of birth, which was near Richmond, VA.
As our wives spoken in Japanese, he and I began to talk. I talked to this man about his life experience overseas, current political affairs, and home improvement for an hour.
He then tells me he graduated from Howard in 1961 and then he said "no too many brothas like me" were working in the State Department when I started there. He said it was work there or go to work at Customs in the South, but white folks were real racist back then and I was interested in that.
I was dumbfounded. I didn't want to offend the man, but I wanted to yell out "YOU ARE BLACK!?!?!? WHAT THE #*$#*#???"
I'm usually pretty good about picking up facial features, expressions, mannerisms, not just with Americans; I can often tell Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese apart better than my Japanese wife. I definately can usually identify an African American.
If this guy didn't say he was a "brotha from Howard" I would have left that house thinking he was just a white man.
It was really surreal. It would be like being at Robert DiNero's house and he came out and said "hey I'm a brotha too" and was dead serious and started talking about how he feared Jim Crow and went to a HBCU...etc.
I mean the guy looked that white, actually more white, he had nearly blue eyes. LOL
I told my wife he was black when we got in the car she thought I was trying to make some type of joke. :lol:
Before I left the guy said he had some contacts in the government and brothas need to look out for each other, despite Obama... :lol: He said if I see anything to let him know and he would see what he could do.
I was still dumbfounded thinking "ahhh...but...he's black...okay I'm talking to a black man...uh...really??"
Just weird.
This man was not "one droped" by anyone or he never complained about that. He explained he came from a "black family" in Richmond and his father was an accountant, mother was a nurse, etc. He considered himself black and always tried to work toward black American uplift.
I find it interesting that he went out of his way to talk to you like that. I've said for a long time that the "one drop rule" depends mainly on self-policing.
I understand how it was back in the day, but Powell is right. Many Creole/MGM families have members who basically decided to be 'White' or 'Black'. They moved away/married 'White' or stayed in the community to be 'Black'. It was a conscience choice. And I have known quite a few AAs/Creoles that 'White'. And even some White people I thought were 'Black', who were really 'White'.
My question to DH - did they have any kids? And if so, did they have photos of their half AA (but phenotype 'White') and Japanese children? That would be interesting to see.
Also, I see there is also that 'to uplift the Black race' mantra again, which is common in MGM circles. Not to beat a dead horse, but I just posted that about Obama - to be a 'credit to the AA race'.....etc. This is why I am moreso pro-mixed. In a way, its to allow AAs to stand on their own two feet, take a look in the mirror, and come to terms with what Black is. Blond hair, blue eyes, and features like this AA gentleman is not natural to the African/Black race. That is not what African is (Yes, he is AA). But why is he then seen as a credit to the race (aside from his accomplishments)? There is nothing wrong with Black people being a credit to themselves.
The idea that MGM/biracial/Creole people cannot be who they are - mixed-they need to 'help out AAs', because........? Isn't Black enough alone? Why must people TODAY who look like this man be pressured (aside from racism) to chose AA so that some radom AA can look at them and be proud to be AA too? Why can't they be proud in and of themselves? Does anyone else see what is wrong with this? This doesn't help AAs, esp. women. This is the cause of alot of self-hate and jealousy in the AA community due to colorism (and yes, its whiteys fault, lol). Yes, AAs tend to welcome them (esp. if they marry and 'act Black'), but isn't stange that no other country, including AFRICA, would? To me, that highlights one probem with hypodescent/ODR - that Black alone isn't good enough. Africans I have met are very proud of their heritage/culture/tribe and don't look to outsiders to enhance their selfworth or self-identity. These people bring diversity to the AA phenotype, even a preferred one for some - but what does this say?
DH- not to single you out, but as a dark-skinned man with a mulatto-phentotype mother, does knowing this man is AA give you more pride in being Black? And if so, why?
Posted: Mon 10 Nov 2008 16:20 Post subject: Re: My One Drop Experience
Powell wrote:
I find it interesting that he went out of his way to talk to you like that. I've said for a long time that the "one drop rule" depends mainly on self-policing.
Given this man's age, he probably saw himself as 100% black; his speaking to DH in this manner could have been a way of conveying to him that he too was black.
This isn't out of the ordinary. I work in the DC area and have worked with two not-very-black-looking black people. One was my supervisor who was "off-white". The other was, according to my supervisor, a "Wessort" from Maryland.
Accordong to her these were white-looking black people who formed a community some place in Maryland and basically engaged in selective breeding with each other. Boxing promoter Rock Newman is supposed to be one.
This guy was the whitest black man I've ever seen-both in appearance and speach patterns. "Code switching" was something that was immune to him. It was odd seeing him host the Black History Month kick off at my place of work. It was even more strange when he made fun of Michael Jackson trying to be white. People who didn't know him where like: "What...Who does this white man think he is?"
Joined: 19 Jan 2006 {Posts: 185 } Location: Southern California
Posted: Mon 10 Nov 2008 17:49 Post subject:
In reference to the individuals mentioned in DH's and G-Man's narratives....it would be really interesting to see what one of those DNA-ancestry tests would yield in terms of percentages.
I've been saying from day one that racial identity in adults today is completely voluntary. Forget the "Soul Patrol" and all those other lame excuses. As a child, of course, it is not!
Strangers might see you one way and you could see yourself as another. If I'm not mistaken Frank here self identifies as Puerto Rican, but I think most Americans would say he looks pretty "gringo". Should that take away Franks right to be Puerto Rican if Black and White Americans mistake him for an elderly White American man? I'm sure Frank sometimes has to go into Spanish speaking mode when he meets other Puerto Ricans to insure them that he's "one of them" too. Is it anymore different from what this man does?
I think I've met maybe 4 or 5 people like this in my entire life which really isn't a lot. I was shocked too because I consider myself a pretty good judge of race and facial features as well. All of these people I thought were straight White American (not the Italian or Jewish type either mind you) if it had not been for their more visibly African descended children.
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 {Posts: 1301 } Location: Lookin DC Metro, Feelin Geneva
Posted: Mon 10 Nov 2008 19:03 Post subject:
DucorpsToo wrote:
In reference to the individuals mentioned in DH's and G-Man's narratives....it would be really interesting to see what one of those DNA-ancestry tests would yield in terms of percentages.
There are actually very few genes that determine phenotype, but there is an obvious correlation between admixture and appearance. I would guess the guy I met is no more than 30% SubSaharan African in Ancestry...if that.
In reference to the individuals mentioned in DH's and G-Man's narratives....it would be really interesting to see what one of those DNA-ancestry tests would yield in terms of percentages.
The guy in my example was, according to my supervisor, from a community that has been called a "tri-racial isolate" by some.
Based on what I know about the people this guy was a part of, which is limited, I'd say he was predominantly Euro-descended with some African ancestry.
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 {Posts: 1301 } Location: Lookin DC Metro, Feelin Geneva
Posted: Mon 10 Nov 2008 19:41 Post subject:
Melani23 wrote:
I understand how it was back in the day, but Powell is right. Many Creole/MGM families have members who basically decided to be 'White' or 'Black'. They moved away/married 'White' or stayed in the community to be 'Black'. It was a conscience choice. And I have known quite a few AAs/Creoles that 'White'. And even some White people I thought were 'Black', who were really 'White'.
My question to DH - did they have any kids? And if so, did they have photos of their half AA (but phenotype 'White') and Japanese children? That would be interesting to see.
Also, I see there is also that 'to uplift the Black race' mantra again, which is common in MGM circles. Not to beat a dead horse, but I just posted that about Obama - to be a 'credit to the AA race'.....etc. This is why I am moreso pro-mixed. In a way, its to allow AAs to stand on their own two feet, take a look in the mirror, and come to terms with what Black is. Blond hair, blue eyes, and features like this AA gentleman is not natural to the African/Black race. That is not what African is (Yes, he is AA). But why is he then seen as a credit to the race (aside from his accomplishments)? There is nothing wrong with Black people being a credit to themselves.
The idea that MGM/biracial/Creole people cannot be who they are - mixed-they need to 'help out AAs', because........? Isn't Black enough alone? Why must people TODAY who look like this man be pressured (aside from racism) to chose AA so that some radom AA can look at them and be proud to be AA too? Why can't they be proud in and of themselves? Does anyone else see what is wrong with this? This doesn't help AAs, esp. women. This is the cause of alot of self-hate and jealousy in the AA community due to colorism (and yes, its whiteys fault, lol). Yes, AAs tend to welcome them (esp. if they marry and 'act Black'), but isn't stange that no other country, including AFRICA, would? To me, that highlights one probem with hypodescent/ODR - that Black alone isn't good enough. Africans I have met are very proud of their heritage/culture/tribe and don't look to outsiders to enhance their selfworth or self-identity. These people bring diversity to the AA phenotype, even a preferred one for some - but what does this say?
DH- not to single you out, but as a dark-skinned man with a mulatto-phentotype mother, does knowing this man is AA give you more pride in being Black? And if so, why?
Thanks for sharing.
No they didn't have any kids together. He had two kids from a previous marriage to a black woman. A boy and a girl. I saw pictures later. His son looks something like Prince, but bigger and more conservative looking (he is lawyer in New York)...
His daughter looks...well...maybe like Suzanne Malveaux, but lighter skinned...brown hair, light eyes (couldn't tell the color from the photo)...
In any event, in my opinion, neither could "pass" for white. If they had Spanish last names they would not be considered black though.
Being that he feels strongly black and he said he ex was "black"...I'm going to guess his kids also consider themselves black.
There were no pictures of his ex-wife, so I can't tell you what he looked like.
As far as "being a credit to his race, blah blah blah. I think you are projecting.
This man, I don't believe feels some burden. He feels he is black, as black as I and sees himself as a black man who grew up in America trying to get by and help other black people when he can. I have biracial cousins, one considers herself biracial the other just black, both have went out of their way to help black people and even though one says she is biracial, most of her friends are black to my knowledge and have been since we were kids (not that she does not associate with non-blacks, but it is obvious that culturally she leans toward African American, although her father is a white man). I don’t think they feel any “burden” nor when they see Obama do they feel something wrong with him saying he is black or people saying he is the “first black president”. Obama in phenotype does not look significantly different from many African Americans. African Americans are about 20% white on average, so we are not pure West Africans and have not been for hundreds of years so how you would determine who is “really black” or who has the “proper phenotype for a black person” in 2008 is corny. That is just subjective in the U.S. You would draw an artificial line at some point where people in the same family, with the same parents would be different races. Most black people I know are not interested in that…these "light skin" folks you are talking about are not usually a self contained community in most areas of the country.
There is some self hatred, colorism, etc. But the reality is that exist among whites too…How many Jews have got nose jobs, how many white women dye their hair and alter their facial features to look like some Nordic princess that no one in their Mediterranean looking family looks like? By this definition you definitely have self hating Italian-Americans, Jews, etc. Let a leggy blond nordic type come into an office in a short skirt, it is not unusual for the "darker whites women" to start hating on her. This type of stuff goes on all the time, but everyone seems to think it is normal...it is all phenotypically based.
As far as me personally…my mother was definitely a “light skin creole” woman, but she always considered herself black. She was a black panther for a few years in the 1970’s. She was very pro-black and for her, she never said this, but based on things she had said when she was a live I believe she wished she had less white admixture. She went out and married the darker pure West African looking brother she could find (my father) as to be “black and proud” in the 70’s in many areas was in fashion, many “black women” wanted a “African prince” type of stereotype. I think that went out of style in the late 70’s when the Michael Jacksons, Princes, Debarges, Lionel Richie etc came into style. Hip Hop saved the dark skin black man as a sex symbol. LOL My mother once told me that she used to be embarrassed in high school as she could not grow a proper afro and some people would tease her by calling her “white gal”, which was her nickname (one that was not cool to have in the early 1970’s/late 1960’s). My mother’ issue around race was never wanting to not be black or be more accepted by whites, having blacks one-drop her. Her issue was wanting to be seen as a normal/typical black woman by blacks.
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Last edited by Dragon Horse on Mon 10 Nov 2008 20:00; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 {Posts: 1301 } Location: Lookin DC Metro, Feelin Geneva
Posted: Mon 10 Nov 2008 19:48 Post subject: Re: My One Drop Experience
Powell wrote:
Dragon Horse wrote:
I had an interesting time tonight and felt I should share it.
My wife met a older lady at the Japanese Embassy, here in the DC area. Her American husband is a retired ex-diplomat to a small African nation. He worked his way up through the civil service (starting at OMB in 1962). He eventually made his way to diplomatic security at the State Department and after 25 years was named a diplomat under the Clinton Administration.
I went to their home out in Loudon country. I had met the wife, but never the husband. A very tall broad chested older gentle men met me at the door. He had salt and pepper hair, thin, wavy (not curly)...he had a long aquiline nose and a fairly long but narrow face. He had blue-green eyes and he appeared tan, but no more tan than the typical Italian American on Staten Island, slightly olive in complexion. Basically, this man, but for his physical size, could easily walk about any small town on any coast of the Mediterranean and be taken as a local. He had a slight southern accent, which tipped me off to his place of birth, which was near Richmond, VA.
As our wives spoken in Japanese, he and I began to talk. I talked to this man about his life experience overseas, current political affairs, and home improvement for an hour.
He then tells me he graduated from Howard in 1961 and then he said "no too many brothas like me" were working in the State Department when I started there. He said it was work there or go to work at Customs in the South, but white folks were real racist back then and I was interested in that.
I was dumbfounded. I didn't want to offend the man, but I wanted to yell out "YOU ARE BLACK!?!?!? WHAT THE #*$#*#???"
I'm usually pretty good about picking up facial features, expressions, mannerisms, not just with Americans; I can often tell Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese apart better than my Japanese wife. I definately can usually identify an African American.
If this guy didn't say he was a "brotha from Howard" I would have left that house thinking he was just a white man.
It was really surreal. It would be like being at Robert DiNero's house and he came out and said "hey I'm a brotha too" and was dead serious and started talking about how he feared Jim Crow and went to a HBCU...etc.
I mean the guy looked that white, actually more white, he had nearly blue eyes. LOL
I told my wife he was black when we got in the car she thought I was trying to make some type of joke.
Before I left the guy said he had some contacts in the government and brothas need to look out for each other, despite Obama... He said if I see anything to let him know and he would see what he could do.
I was still dumbfounded thinking "ahhh...but...he's black...okay I'm talking to a black man...uh...really??"
Just weird.
This man was not "one droped" by anyone or he never complained about that. He explained he came from a "black family" in Richmond and his father was an accountant, mother was a nurse, etc. He considered himself black and always tried to work toward black American uplift.
I find it interesting that he went out of his way to talk to you like that. I've said for a long time that the "one drop rule" depends mainly on self-policing.
I think the guy took this attitude, and this is a guess, that he is used to people not thinking he is black, even other black people, due to his appearance. I co-switch, typically unconsciously. I grew up in mostly white areas and at an early age I learned to speak and act one way outside the home with non-blacks (who were like 90% of people in my community) and at home with my family. I don’t do this consciously, if I’m around blacks I start to speak differently and my wife has noticed this, even when I do not. Most people, for example, tend to think I’m white on the telephone and I’ve seen the shock on white people’s face when I come in for an interview, etc. White people generally don’t say anything though, it is black people who say things (once in a while) “oh damn…I thought you were a white man…”
LOL
I think this guy felt I was talking to him like a “white man” and he wanted me to know he was black or something like that. Since I asked him about his background, work history, etc…for him race was something he felt he needed to talk about being his age and having been the first black man in many situations when he was younger. So after he established in an indirect way that he was a black man (African American) he then discussed his history and experience and added in how being black affected his work experience.
Still, I have to think, many people worked with him and likely did not know he was black or did not consider him black (especially when he was working at embassy’s abroad). Not many Asians, Arabs, Hispanics would consider this man “black” on appearance. So I wonder how “being black” and not appearance black effected his career. I wanted to ask him what he thought, but I didn’t want to possibly offend him by implying he did not look black, some folks are quite sensitive about these things and I don’t know the man well.
I understand how it was back in the day, but Powell is right. Many Creole/MGM families have members who basically decided to be 'White' or 'Black'. They moved away/married 'White' or stayed in the community to be 'Black'. It was a conscience choice. And I have known quite a few AAs/Creoles that 'White'. And even some White people I thought were 'Black', who were really 'White'.
My question to DH - did they have any kids? And if so, did they have photos of their half AA (but phenotype 'White') and Japanese children? That would be interesting to see.
Also, I see there is also that 'to uplift the Black race' mantra again, which is common in MGM circles. Not to beat a dead horse, but I just posted that about Obama - to be a 'credit to the AA race'.....etc. This is why I am moreso pro-mixed. In a way, its to allow AAs to stand on their own two feet, take a look in the mirror, and come to terms with what Black is. Blond hair, blue eyes, and features like this AA gentleman is not natural to the African/Black race. That is not what African is (Yes, he is AA). But why is he then seen as a credit to the race (aside from his accomplishments)? There is nothing wrong with Black people being a credit to themselves.
The idea that MGM/biracial/Creole people cannot be who they are - mixed-they need to 'help out AAs', because........? Isn't Black enough alone? Why must people TODAY who look like this man be pressured (aside from racism) to chose AA so that some radom AA can look at them and be proud to be AA too? Why can't they be proud in and of themselves? Does anyone else see what is wrong with this? This doesn't help AAs, esp. women. This is the cause of alot of self-hate and jealousy in the AA community due to colorism (and yes, its whiteys fault, lol). Yes, AAs tend to welcome them (esp. if they marry and 'act Black'), but isn't stange that no other country, including AFRICA, would? To me, that highlights one probem with hypodescent/ODR - that Black alone isn't good enough. Africans I have met are very proud of their heritage/culture/tribe and don't look to outsiders to enhance their selfworth or self-identity. These people bring diversity to the AA phenotype, even a preferred one for some - but what does this say?
DH- not to single you out, but as a dark-skinned man with a mulatto-phentotype mother, does knowing this man is AA give you more pride in being Black? And if so, why?
Thanks for sharing.
No they didn't have any kids together. He had two kids from a previous marriage to a black woman. A boy and a girl. I saw pictures later. His son looks something like Prince, but bigger and more conservative looking (he is lawyer in New York)...
His daughter looks...well...maybe like Suzanne Malveaux, but lighter skinned...brown hair, light eyes (couldn't tell the color from the photo)...
In any event, in my opinion, neither could "pass" for white. If they had Spanish last names they would not be considered black though.
Being that he feels strongly black and he said he ex was "black"...I'm going to guess his kids also consider themselves black.
There were no pictures of his ex-wife, so I can't tell you what he looked like.
As far as "being a credit to his race, blah blah blah. I think you are projecting.
This man, I don't believe feels some burden. He feels he is black, as black as I and sees himself as a black man who grew up in America trying to get by and help other black people when he can. I have biracial cousins, one considers herself biracial the other just black, both have went out of their way to help black people and even though one says she is biracial, most of her friends are black to my knowledge and have been since we were kids (not that she does not associate with non-blacks, but it is obvious that culturally she leans toward African American, although her father is a white man). I don’t think they feel any “burden” nor when they see Obama do they feel something wrong with him saying he is black or people saying he is the “first black president”. Obama in phenotype does not look significantly different from many African Americans. African Americans are about 20% white on average, so we are not pure West Africans and have not been for hundreds of years so how you would determine who is “really black” or who has the “proper phenotype for a black person” in 2008 is corny. That is just subjective in the U.S. You would draw an artificial line at some point where people in the same family, with the same parents would be different races. Most black people I know are not interested in that…these "light skin" folks you are talking about are not usually a self contained community in most areas of the country.
There is some self hatred, colorism, etc. But the reality is that exist among whites too…How many Jews have got nose jobs, how many white women dye their hair and alter their facial features to look like some Nordic princess that no one in their Mediterranean looking family looks like? By this definition you definitely have self hating Italian-Americans, Jews, etc. Let a leggy blond nordic type come into an office in a short skirt, it is not unusual for the "darker whites women" to start hating on her. This type of stuff goes on all the time, but everyone seems to think it is normal...it is all phenotypically based.
As far as me personally…my mother was definitely a “light skin creole” woman, but she always considered herself black. She was a black panther for a few years in the 1970’s. She was very pro-black and for her, she never said this, but based on things she had said when she was a live I believe she wished she had less white admixture. She went out and married the darker pure West African looking brother she could find (my father) as to be “black and proud” in the 70’s in many areas was in fashion, many “black women” wanted a “African prince” type of stereotype. I think that went out of style in the late 70’s when the Michael Jacksons, Princes, Debarges, Lionel Richie etc came into style. Hip Hop saved the dark skin black man as a sex symbol. LOL My mother once told me that she used to be embarrassed in high school as she could not grow a proper afro and some people would tease her by calling her “white gal”, which was her nickname (one that was not cool to have in the early 1970’s/late 1960’s). My mother’ issue around race was never wanting to not be black or be more accepted by whites, having blacks one-drop her. Her issue was wanting to be seen as a normal/typical black woman by blacks.
[/img]
Oh, they didn't have any kids then, oh well. Since his other kids were not there, its pointless to speculate about them and you didn't give any ages on anybody.
Moving on....
Projecting, eh? Funny, thats what I think of Americans who 'project' mystical race qualities on certain people.
And 'burden', where did that word come from? No one is using it but you. And as far as "helping Black people" is that how you see such people? As I stated, what is wrong with 'Black' people helping themselves?
Again, my reference to Obama wasn't about his looks, but the MGM ODR mantra of 'uplift the race', 'talented tenth', etc, etc. Again, why do some people think that AAs need 'help' in this form (Africans, some Carribeans, Black Canadians, etc do just fine without ODResque folks)? I am not White appearanced, but mixed, and think something is not quite 'kosher' about phentoype White people (not obviously mixed) racially 'helping' Blacks by their 'being'. Unless you mean as spies? LOL! I do have a story.....
My dad told us some stories on how certain 'White' but Creoles/Blacks would attend KKK rallies and the next day, all the Klan secrets were printed in the Black newspapers, lol. I have heard this 'spy on Whites' before, but is that really fair to be used in this manner, today?
Sorry, if I am not making myself clear, but let's try another example. I'll use my family as you have....I have a relative who is bi-racial and is African-American identified. She has a young daughter who is LSB. She buys all raced dolls for her, but I did ask, since you/she are AA, why don't get soley get AA dolls (there are some medium toned ones too)? Her response: "My child wouldn't be able to relate or understand". My question is more about reinforcement. What are the messages left un-said....? Remember, I grew up around Creoles - many who are more mixed in appearance than myself, (and I don't just mean White), and many (not all) have a Creole/Black identity these days. This wasn't always the case (good or bad).
DH - due to your genetics and wife, suppose your future daughter comes out looking like Kimora Lee Simmons. Would you only buy AA dolls for her? Or would you buy Black and Asian dolls (happily today there are mixed raced dolls). I don't think you would buy only AA dolls, but many would applaud your decison if you did. Likewise, for a MGM child who is like this man, what would be the appropriate dolls and why?
African Americans are about 20% white on average, so we are not pure West Africans and have not been for hundreds of years so how you would determine who is “really black” or who has the “proper phenotype for a black person” in 2008 is corny
The choices have already been made in the past, I am talking about current/future ones for those of mixed parentage.
Again, I am not talking about splitting current members of the AA community by color. Why would a person with 2 AA parents today, seek to change their race? That's absurb. Whites come in many colors too.
I am talking about mixed raced people born via interracial marriages and Non-Whites, but mixed with SSA people, moving here from the non-ODR countries. I am talking about new mixtures with immigrants, non-Whites with non-Black parents/grandparents in the house. This goes beyond White and Black Americans - I have a cousin with 2 mixed Black/Mexican girls who look like dark Mexicans. Black Hispanic might not cut it for them in CALIFORNIA.
I think I asked the wrong person, lol. But thank you for your comments.
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 {Posts: 1301 } Location: Lookin DC Metro, Feelin Geneva
Posted: Mon 10 Nov 2008 21:20 Post subject:
Quote:
Oh, they didn't have any kids then, oh well. Since his other kids were not there, its pointless to speculate about them and you didn't give any ages on anybody.
Moving on....
Projecting, eh? Funny, thats what I think of Americans who 'project' mystical race qualities on certain people.
And 'burden', where did that word come from? No one is using it but you. And as far as "helping Black people" is that how you see such people? As I stated, what is wrong with 'Black' people helping themselves?
Again, my reference to Obama wasn't about his looks, but the MGM ODR mantra of 'uplift the race', 'talented tenth', etc, etc. Again, why do some people think that AAs need 'help' in this form (Africans, some Carribeans, Black Canadians, etc do just fine without ODResque folks)? I am not White appearanced, but mixed, and think something is not quite 'kosher' about phentoype White people (not obviouly mixed) racially 'helping' Blacks by their 'being'. Unless you mean as spies? LOL! I do have a story.....
My dad told us some stories on how certain 'White' but Creoles/Blacks would attend KKK rallies and the next day, all the Klan secrets were printed in the Black newspapers, lol. I have heard this 'spy on Whites' before, but is that really fair to be used in this manner, today?
Sorry, if I am not making myuself clear, but let's try another example. I'll use my family as you have....I have a relative who is bi-racial and is African-American identitfied. She has a young daughter who is LSB. She buys all raced dolls for her, but I did ask, since you/she are AA, why don't get soley get AA dolls (there are some medium toned ones too)? Her response: My child wouldn't be able to relate or understand. My questions is more about reinforcement. DH - due to your genetics and wife, suppose your future daughter comes out looking like Kimora Lee Simmons. Would you only buy AA dolls for her? Or would you buy Black and Asian dolls (happily today there are mixed raced dolls). I don't think you would, but many would applaud your decison if you did. Lkewise, for a MGM child who is like this man, what would be the appropriate dolls) and why?
Recall the Doll Studies if you think this is a joke.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4627755 http://www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/article_2919.shtml
Quote:
African Americans are about 20% white on average, so we are not pure West Africans and have not been for hundreds of years so how you would determine who is “really black” or who has the “proper phenotype for a black person” in 2008 is corny
The choices have already been made in the past, I am talking about current/future ones for those of mixed parentage.
Again, I am not talking about splitting current members of the AA community by color. Whites come in many colors too. No, I am talking about mixed raced people born via interracial marriages. Why would a person with 2 AA parents today, seek to change their race? That's absurb.
No, I am talking about new mixtures including non-White mixtures who have parents/grandparents in the house. This goes beyond White and Black Americans - I have a cousin with 2 mixed Black/Mexican girls.
I think I asked the wrong person, lol. But thank you for your comments.
Okay I see what you are getting at.
I don' see it as extremely mixed or "white looking" or biracial "black people" helping blacks in general by their appearance.
My mother was also helped by black people in her life.
It is not like only light skin blacks are in only in a position to benefit black folks...maybe in some areas in the past that was true, but I live in the DC Metro area and I see dark skin successful, educated, wealthy black people daily. There are dark skinned black managers in my office making 6 figures with graduate degrees. In fact there are no light skin black people with comparable positions that I have seen in this building.
This is why I don't really understand the source of your question.
I am not "light skinned" but I recall on two occasions in the last 4 years helping light skin black males get jobs.
Black people can help themselves, but the reality is, at least where I live, who you know is often as important (if not more important than what you know)...as long as you have some base level qualifications the difference between having a plush job and a so-so job has to do with connections...DC is famously corrupt and inbred in this way...well depending on industry. the less objective your industry is the more connections are going to be important.
Historically black folks had less connections. Even today I have seen hiring managers request the apps of people who are friends of a friend, who have limited experience and hire them, usually these are white (non-Hispanic) folks they hire over blacks, Asians, Hispanics, etc.
Do you think Bush would have been president without his father's name and influence...this is the affirmative action that goes back to the countries beginning and can be found in most nations in the world (I know it is rampant in East Asia).
Obama being a biracial "black man" does not help me due to his existence, just as my cousins being biracial don't help me.
I think the point is that the man I considers himself black and through some connections of his own and a lot of hard work "made good" he felt due to his being a member of a community (especially at the time he grew up) who were legally and socially oppressed it was his duty to help other black people.
If he turned out to be a pimp (think Malcolm X, another "black man" of obvious admixture) it would not have been a benefit to anyone. Jails have plenty of light skinned black folks who are no good to anyone, including themselves.
As far as my potential child. My wife and I have talked about this.
We will tell them that they are half black (African American) and half Japanese. We will give them English first names, and Japanese middle names. My wife will teach them to speak, read, and white Japanese. She will also teach them about Japanese culture (as I will teach her about my people's history).
That being said we will not force an identity on them. I will tell them, depending on how they look or just based on who their father is, that most people will see them as black and that comes with negatives and positives...and I will seek to explain them.
That being said, I will not tell them they are just black. I don't believe in the one-drop rule although I see how it is political advantageous to black folks...or has been.
I will teach them they are individuals of mixed heritage and it is for them to define who they are, but I feel I would be irresponsible as a parent to not teach them how the many in the world will treat them and the consequences of that.
That's about it. So what dolls would I buy them? Likely black and Asian ones...I wouldn't be buying white Nordic barbies.
I think what is important is that the children are grounded morally and understand both cultures and can deal with people from both, that they can code-switch. I don't think that will be a problem as my wife is very Japanese and not becoming American any times soon, and I'm definately not, so how they related to both of us would be different...they might not even speak the same language to both of us all the time. That's fine too.
I don't want them to feel they MUST choose as children. I will warn them some will try to make them and that they have to be stronger than that...my mother told me the same thing as a child, but in reference to "bad kids" who want me to be "down" and "keep it real".
She would say ..."if those kids don't take your tests for you, aren't your close family, don't pay for food and a roof over your head, they "ain't nobody to be worried about...leave them fools alone, because they are not your friends".
Some of the best advice she ever gave me, and something I will pass on.
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where did that word come from? No one is using it but you. And as far as "helping Black people" is that how you see such people? As I stated, what is wrong with 'Black' people helping themselves? 