So the point then is that the rhetoric about multiculturalism in the USA (and the UK and Canada) vs the rhetoric of we are all one without distinction of France seem to lead to the same outcome. However an upper middle class seems to be more prevalent among nonwhite immigrants (FIRST generation) in the USA than it is in France.
Perhaps more social mobility in the U.S. combined with selective immigration is the cause?
caribj wrote:
I have been made to understand that there are very few few nonwhite broadcasters on French TV despite their large North African and Antillean and African black populations. Yet daily even on CNBC (which focuses on the capital markets) blacks can be seen. Even on teh conservative FOX TV. CNN might even have a slight OVERrepresentation. We have a "black" President (as he is so considered by most in the USA) and the head of the GOP is also a black man. There is another thread on this forum discussing the increased popularity of multi cultural images even in high end advertising. Doesnt seem to be so in France. Maybe the "multiculturalism" of the USA allows this country to embrace (or at least pretend to) those who look different. France seems less tolerant preferring to present a more uniform image.
Technically these are multi-racial images as opposed to multicultural ones.
The U.S. and France shouldn’t be compared in this regard (comparing some Latin American countries with the U.S. is better). The U.S. has a black population that has deep roots in U.S. society and is disproportionately influential culturally. Hence, though there is a history of exclusion, the preponderance of African-American personalities in our media today makes more sense given African-American’s historical presence in the U.S.
Non-whites in France are immigrants and the children of immigrants. As such their invisibility in the media, though lamentable, is more understandable in France than African-American invisibility in the U.S. media. Incidentally, until recently, many other non-white communities in the U.S. like South Asians and Mexican-Americans were also under-represented in the U.S. media.
[Incidentally, until recently, many other non-white communities in the U.S. like South Asians and Mexican-Americans were also under-represented in the U.S. media.
Seems that there has been a gradual resolution of that problem as Mexican American faces have now become quite visible on newscasts especially in regions where their populations are large. South Asians are a very small group, much smaller relatively than the Arab populations of France as an example. Mexican Americans also face all of the socio-economic, linguistic and maybe even cultural barriers that Arab immigrants face. Remember also that there has been migration from North Africa since WWII, and that France has had close ties to Algeria for at least a century.
There is now a significant Mexican American middle class, and several have been elected or appointed to very prominent positions. Given the lack of data we do not know for certain what the situation is with second and third generation Arabs so we are left with the anecdotal accounts from their ghettoes. THis might be an example of where having data would allow analysts to prove or disprove the extent to which a nonGaullist ethnic identity poses or does not pose a barrier to upward mobility in France. This might be compared with analyses as to the extent that Americans who are not AngloSaxon face barriers.
US migration is not that selective and looking at the profile of Hispanic immigrants would show this. I do not know this for a fact but it might well be easier for someone to migrate to the USA from a nonwhite nation than to France, assuming of course one has relatives able to sponsor siuch migration.
Though proximity is clearly key in this it doesnt appear as if Haitians, having migrated to the USA and being able to establish financial stability, then move on to France in large numbers. Given that Haitians are French speaking if France was more desirable, or even AS desirable a destination one might expect some Haitians to move there from the USA once able to.
It is the very presence of large numbers of blacks in the USA and their core role in this society that might well explain the difference between France and the USA, and the fact that the USA has to adopt a more diverse image of itself than France. Such diversity is expressed in phenotype, ethnic identity, or even greater tolerance for cultural difference, as indicated by the widespread use of immigrant languages, lack of legal sanction against ethnic garb, and usually greater communal tolerance for different religions (though this has been tempered by post 9/11 hysteria).
Perhaps more social mobility in the U.S. combined with selective immigration is the cause?
That there is a greater level of social mobility in the US for reasons unrelated to multiculturalism is what I was getting at. There is something of a cultural elite in America, but it strikes me as being far less entrenched and more penetrable and fluid.
Of course the most obvious problems with multiculturalism, as an approach to diversity management, have less to do with the matter of making a host country pleasant for new immigrants to enter into and more to do with the matter of what already existent members of the host country get out of the deal.
G-Man wrote:
Non-whites in France are immigrants and the children of immigrants.
Yes. Our understanding of the term "black" is shifting here between how we apply it in France and ow we apply it in the US.
Most "blacks" in France are foreign born or first generation immigrants from former French colonies in Africa and the Caribbean. So to discuss the conditions for "blacks" in France is to discuss conditions for immigrants that are largely shared by such non-"black" regarded immigrant groups as Moroccans and Algerians, for example.
To discuss the conditions for "black" as opposed to "white" Americans is to discuss a non-immigrant based phenomenon. "Black" Americans are every bit as historically non-immigrant American as are "white" Americans. Likewise, "white" Americans are every bit as nouveau immigrant as are "black" in the sense of lacking the depth of rooting of a Gaul in France.
I find this thread very interesting. I live in the UK. I am from a family who migrated from the Caribbean to America, UK and Canada. I do not think any of these countries could be described as racially friendly towards Caribbean immigrants. However, I think America is probably is the most immigrant friendly country towards immigrants because it is immigrant country. Furthermore, I think America offers immigrants more opportunities because America was founded on immigrant therefore they have a system and structure that caters for immigrants. If I were to use my families as example, none of them had an easy ride. I think they suffered from racism based on stereotypes based on their races and their country of origin. Furthermore, my family that migrated to America faced prejudices from being perceived to be African American and from African Americans themselves. For this reason, Caribj, your hypothesis does not make sense to me.
I find this thread very interesting. I live in the UK. I am from a family who migrated from the Caribbean to America, UK and Canada. I do not think any of these countries could be described as racially friendly towards Caribbean immigrants. However, I think America is probably is the most immigrant friendly country towards immigrants because it is immigrant country. Furthermore, I think America offers immigrants more opportunities because America was founded on immigrant therefore they have a system and structure that caters for immigrants. If I were to use my families as example, none of them had an easy ride. I think they suffered from racism based on stereotypes based on their races and their country of origin. Furthermore, my family that migrated to America faced prejudices from being perceived to be African American and from African Americans themselves. For this reason, Caribj, your hypothesis does not make sense to me.
You are making the same points that I make about the USA vs other countries, in this case France but you then say that what I say doesnt make sense. In fcat the socio economic profile of FIRST generation AngloCaribbean immigrants tracks them as having family incomes at about 80%+ of white households. Note that we compare FIRST generation black immigrants with whites who have been here for many generations. Immigrants from the Spanish Caribbean (except the Cubans) and Haitians havent done as well, due to linguistic challenges that the first generation faces.
My point wasnt that there was no racism in the USA. In fcat I am sure that I made this point. My point was that BECAUSE the USA has a history of racism it has been easier for blacks and others to employ a language of remedies, even if such remedies are limited to the current rage of ensuring diverse images in our media, inclusive of ads. In France where discussions of ethnicity arent allowed the barriers that people who look visibly different then can be ignored, and remedies assigned scant priority.
This plus the history of the USA of being an immigrant country places first generation Caribbean immigrants definitely in a better place in there than in the UK. I will not attempt to compare the situation in Canada because it seems quite complicated and class I suspect plays a huge role. I have been told that blacks in the UK are better off than any in Europe, due I suspect to the US diversity image influences. My understanding is that images of black upward mobility, even if confined to the highly assimilated second and third generation descendant of Caribbean immigrants, might be easier to process in the UK than in France. You live in Europe so probably more about this than I do.
I urge you to watch CNN (if possible) as an example and then compare the diverse images with what one might see on French TV. If American whites see blacks every day discussing all sorts of issues might it not be easier for them to accept blacks, who figure out how to be upwardly mobile, than in France where such symbols of black upward mobility seem much more rare? Even on CNBC, our financial cable TV news, blacks are seen talking daily about small cap stocks and commodites and more than a few Asian Indians also appear as analysts. A Hispanic is an anchor. Do we see this in Europe except in the heavily American influenced UK?
Clearly therefore upwardly mobility, notwithstanding racism, is easier for immigrant blacks in the USA than it is in Europe, I suspect especially in France, which appears quite comfortable projecting its image as a white country where the nonwhites are hidden in the ghettos, except during periods of unrest. And where the adulation for Obama doesnt transfer to the French black, some of whom are now third generation given that migration from the French Antilles has been occurring since WWII and their grandparents arrived as French citizens.
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