Posted: Thu 08 Jan 2009 06:58 Post subject: Black devotion to forced hypodescent
This man's "open letter" to Bliss Broyard states clearly that it is personally important to him (and he is far from alone among American blacks) that some physically white people be or claim to be (or lead others to believe) that they are totally "black" in their thinking. Submission to the "one drop" myth on the part of parents is reinterpreted as an immutable ethnic/racial identity that cannot or should not be changed. I'm sick of scholars, journalists, and other gatekeepers asking why people "pass" when they should be asking why so many blacks are fanatically devoted to controlling the lives and "racial" identities of strangers.
I recall that American blacks commonly use the word "oreo" to express their contempt for a person who is "black" on the outside but "white" on the inside. Yet, many of these same people worship the idea that one can be "white" on the outside but "black" on the inside. Of course, they don't see the hypocrisy.
But see, you’re in a position to think post-racially because your skin is white, Bliss---it’s as simple and real as that. No one will assume you are of African descent because it doesn’t show on your surface. I’m sorry, but for you, it’s easy to be post-race---nobody is going to remark about your blackness when you walk into a room. More importantly, you won’t (you never have) had to deal with knowing that your blackness announces your presence. You can be post-race, but how post-race can I be? How does that work?
And you know what else? I going to make a distinction between bi-racial people who look white but have been raised by parents who made sure they were raised with a black identity, whatever “black identity” means to them. True, even in that case their blackness doesn’t announce itself, but when they walk into a room they’re walking into it looking out through black eyes, through culturally black eyes. That matters to me. Matters a lot. I know some black folks will diss them because they’re not black enough, or don’t look black, and that’s unfortunate, but nevertheless, that visually-white-looking black person will know who they are. That matters, too. Hugely.
Dear, do you ever meet with blacks who do not think in this evil way you always seem to rant about? What was it like? How do they behave? I aks this to get some perspective on your ideas. Is this the falsification I keep hearing about?
Dear, do you ever meet with blacks who do not think in this evil way you always seem to rant about? What was it like? How do they behave? I aks this to get some perspective on your ideas. Is this the falsification I keep hearing about?
The use of "rant" is inappropriate, especially in this forum. It is judgmental and stakes an idealogical position. First warning.
Also, what is meant by, "the falsification I keep hearing about"? Hearing from whom? Does the fact that you "keep hearing" things have anything to do with this thread (or this site, for that matter)? If not, it is irrelevant and distracting.
Dear, do you ever meet with blacks who do not think in this evil way you always seem to rant about? What was it like? How do they behave? I aks this to get some perspective on your ideas. Is this the falsification I keep hearing about?
The use of "rant" is inappropriate, especially in this forum. It is judgmental and stakes an idealogical position. First warning.
Also, what is meant by, "the falsification I keep hearing about"? Hearing from whom? .
Well, you have been asking me earlier about facts which will disprove my findings in the Blue blood is Black blood research. This was falsification you are talking about, no?
I wanted to find out how blacks should behave according to the ideas, ideology of this gentleman who seems to be very judgemental and angry with (certain) blacks. So what should blacks do to redeem themselves?
you have been asking me earlier about facts which will disprove my findings in the Blue blood is Black blood research. This was falsification you are talking about, no?
Oh. Now I understand. In that case, perhaps you should ask what it would take to persuade Powell that most African Americans in fact do not, "use the word "oreo" to express their contempt for a person who is "black" on the outside but "white" on the inside." Nor do they, "worship the idea that one can be "white" on the outside but "black" on the inside." Perhaps surveys or statistics could help.
you have been asking me earlier about facts which will disprove my findings in the Blue blood is Black blood research. This was falsification you are talking about, no?
Oh. Now I understand. In that case, perhaps you should ask what it would take to persuade Powell that most African Americans in fact do not, "use the word "oreo" to express their contempt for a person who is "black" on the outside but "white" on the inside." Nor do they, "worship the idea that one can be "white" on the outside but "black" on the inside." Perhaps surveys or statistics could help.
This answer shows your more human and sympathetic side. On the other hand I feel that rules, in this thread regarding this person, are not handled in an equal way. You object to me using the word 'rant' yet we have a gentleman here who seems to advocate hatred of a whole group called Blacks linking their colour with their supposed way of persecuting the people who are ‘not black enough.’
Although you have framed your criticism of this person in a more guarded way I read your answer as in full support of mine. His views are offensive to me.
But with you dominating the discussion now all hope has passed for having a real answer to my legitimate question. How then do good blacks behave?
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 {Posts: 1829 } Location: Lookin DC Metro, Feelin Geneva
Posted: Mon 20 Apr 2009 11:59 Post subject: Re: Black devotion to forced hypodescent
Powell wrote:
This man's "open letter" to Bliss Broyard states clearly that it is personally important to him (and he is far from alone among American blacks) that some physically white people be or claim to be (or lead others to believe) that they are totally "black" in their thinking. Submission to the "one drop" myth on the part of parents is reinterpreted as an immutable ethnic/racial identity that cannot or should not be changed. I'm sick of scholars, journalists, and other gatekeepers asking why people "pass" when they should be asking why so many blacks are fanatically devoted to controlling the lives and "racial" identities of strangers.
I recall that American blacks commonly use the word "oreo" to express their contempt for a person who is "black" on the outside but "white" on the inside. Yet, many of these same people worship the idea that one can be "white" on the outside but "black" on the inside. Of course, they don't see the hypocrisy.
But see, you�re in a position to think post-racially because your skin is white, Bliss---it�s as simple and real as that. No one will assume you are of African descent because it doesn�t show on your surface. I�m sorry, but for you, it�s easy to be post-race---nobody is going to remark about your blackness when you walk into a room. More importantly, you won�t (you never have) had to deal with knowing that your blackness announces your presence. You can be post-race, but how post-race can I be? How does that work?
And you know what else? I going to make a distinction between bi-racial people who look white but have been raised by parents who made sure they were raised with a black identity, whatever �black identity� means to them. True, even in that case their blackness doesn�t announce itself, but when they walk into a room they�re walking into it looking out through black eyes, through culturally black eyes. That matters to me. Matters a lot. I know some black folks will diss them because they�re not black enough, or don�t look black, and that�s unfortunate, but nevertheless, that visually-white-looking black person will know who they are. That matters, too. Hugely.
Please provide a reference for this:
Quote:
I recall that American blacks commonly use the word "oreo" to express their contempt for a person who is "black" on the outside but "white" on the inside. Yet, many of these same people worship the idea that one can be "white" on the outside but "black" on the inside. Of course, they don't see the hypocrisy.
This was slang that has pretty much went out of style, your recollection does not necessarily make for reality when speaking of a group of close to 40 million people. I have not heard that term since high school and I know a lot of blacks and I am one.
Quote:
Black devotion to forced hypodescent
What black devotion? Are you saying blacks world wide are devoted to this? If you are speaking about a specific group of blacks what quantitative evidence do you have that the current population is "devoted"? Before you do this, please define what behavior leads you to define someone as "devoted".
you have been asking me earlier about facts which will disprove my findings in the Blue blood is Black blood research. This was falsification you are talking about, no?
Oh. Now I understand. In that case, perhaps you should ask what it would take to persuade Powell that most African Americans in fact do not, "use the word "oreo" to express their contempt for a person who is "black" on the outside but "white" on the inside." Nor do they, "worship the idea that one can be "white" on the outside but "black" on the inside." Perhaps surveys or statistics could help.
This answer shows your more human and sympathetic side. On the other hand I feel that rules, in this thread regarding this person, are not handled in an equal way. You object to me using the word 'rant' yet we have a gentleman here who seems to advocate hatred of a whole group called Blacks linking their colour with their supposed way of persecuting the people who are ‘not black enough.’
Although you have framed your criticism of this person in a more guarded way I read your answer as in full support of mine. His views are offensive to me.
But with you dominating the discussion now all hope has passed for having a real answer to my legitimate question. How then do good blacks behave?
I would ask why the Rules aren't being enforced against Codfried.
Quote:
2.2 Do not engage in ad hominem. — If you disagree with someone, focus your comments on the content of their message, not their person. Do not attribute motives. Do not ridicule them. Do not engage in any form of ad hominem.
2.3 Do not engage in straw man. — Make sure that you understand what the other person is saying before replying. Never caricature or distort another person’s argument.
Posted: Thu 23 Apr 2009 13:18 Post subject: Re: Black devotion to forced hypodescent
Dragon Horse wrote:
Powell wrote:
This man's "open letter" to Bliss Broyard states clearly that it is personally important to him (and he is far from alone among American blacks) that some physically white people be or claim to be (or lead others to believe) that they are totally "black" in their thinking. Submission to the "one drop" myth on the part of parents is reinterpreted as an immutable ethnic/racial identity that cannot or should not be changed. I'm sick of scholars, journalists, and other gatekeepers asking why people "pass" when they should be asking why so many blacks are fanatically devoted to controlling the lives and "racial" identities of strangers.
I recall that American blacks commonly use the word "oreo" to express their contempt for a person who is "black" on the outside but "white" on the inside. Yet, many of these same people worship the idea that one can be "white" on the outside but "black" on the inside. Of course, they don't see the hypocrisy.
But see, you�re in a position to think post-racially because your skin is white, Bliss---it�s as simple and real as that. No one will assume you are of African descent because it doesn�t show on your surface. I�m sorry, but for you, it�s easy to be post-race---nobody is going to remark about your blackness when you walk into a room. More importantly, you won�t (you never have) had to deal with knowing that your blackness announces your presence. You can be post-race, but how post-race can I be? How does that work?
And you know what else? I going to make a distinction between bi-racial people who look white but have been raised by parents who made sure they were raised with a black identity, whatever �black identity� means to them. True, even in that case their blackness doesn�t announce itself, but when they walk into a room they�re walking into it looking out through black eyes, through culturally black eyes. That matters to me. Matters a lot. I know some black folks will diss them because they�re not black enough, or don�t look black, and that�s unfortunate, but nevertheless, that visually-white-looking black person will know who they are. That matters, too. Hugely.
Please provide a reference for this:
Quote:
I recall that American blacks commonly use the word "oreo" to express their contempt for a person who is "black" on the outside but "white" on the inside. Yet, many of these same people worship the idea that one can be "white" on the outside but "black" on the inside. Of course, they don't see the hypocrisy.
This was slang that has pretty much went out of style, your recollection does not necessarily make for reality when speaking of a group of close to 40 million people. I have not heard that term since high school and I know a lot of blacks and I am one.
Quote:
Black devotion to forced hypodescent
What black devotion? Are you saying blacks world wide are devoted to this? If you are speaking about a specific group of blacks what quantitative evidence do you have that the current population is "devoted"? Before you do this, please define what behavior leads you to define someone as "devoted".
Your contention that you have never heard of the term "oreos" or that it is "out of date" is hard to believe.
I think you know very well what "blacks" I'm referring to, so drop this "world wide" nonsense. Do you ever make a similar challenge against anyone who says something negative about "whites" (American being implied)? Frank has previously described research showing black American support of hypodescent (especially among American black elites).
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 {Posts: 1829 } Location: Lookin DC Metro, Feelin Geneva
Posted: Thu 23 Apr 2009 13:45 Post subject: Re: Black devotion to forced hypodescent
Powell wrote:
Dragon Horse wrote:
Powell wrote:
This man's "open letter" to Bliss Broyard states clearly that it is personally important to him (and he is far from alone among American blacks) that some physically white people be or claim to be (or lead others to believe) that they are totally "black" in their thinking. Submission to the "one drop" myth on the part of parents is reinterpreted as an immutable ethnic/racial identity that cannot or should not be changed. I'm sick of scholars, journalists, and other gatekeepers asking why people "pass" when they should be asking why so many blacks are fanatically devoted to controlling the lives and "racial" identities of strangers.
I recall that American blacks commonly use the word "oreo" to express their contempt for a person who is "black" on the outside but "white" on the inside. Yet, many of these same people worship the idea that one can be "white" on the outside but "black" on the inside. Of course, they don't see the hypocrisy.
But see, you�re in a position to think post-racially because your skin is white, Bliss---it�s as simple and real as that. No one will assume you are of African descent because it doesn�t show on your surface. I�m sorry, but for you, it�s easy to be post-race---nobody is going to remark about your blackness when you walk into a room. More importantly, you won�t (you never have) had to deal with knowing that your blackness announces your presence. You can be post-race, but how post-race can I be? How does that work?
And you know what else? I going to make a distinction between bi-racial people who look white but have been raised by parents who made sure they were raised with a black identity, whatever �black identity� means to them. True, even in that case their blackness doesn�t announce itself, but when they walk into a room they�re walking into it looking out through black eyes, through culturally black eyes. That matters to me. Matters a lot. I know some black folks will diss them because they�re not black enough, or don�t look black, and that�s unfortunate, but nevertheless, that visually-white-looking black person will know who they are. That matters, too. Hugely.
Please provide a reference for this:
Quote:
I recall that American blacks commonly use the word "oreo" to express their contempt for a person who is "black" on the outside but "white" on the inside. Yet, many of these same people worship the idea that one can be "white" on the outside but "black" on the inside. Of course, they don't see the hypocrisy.
This was slang that has pretty much went out of style, your recollection does not necessarily make for reality when speaking of a group of close to 40 million people. I have not heard that term since high school and I know a lot of blacks and I am one.
Quote:
Black devotion to forced hypodescent
What black devotion? Are you saying blacks world wide are devoted to this? If you are speaking about a specific group of blacks what quantitative evidence do you have that the current population is "devoted"? Before you do this, please define what behavior leads you to define someone as "devoted".
Your contention that you have never heard of the term "oreos" or that it is "out of date" is hard to believe.
I think you know very well what "blacks" I'm referring to, so drop this "world wide" nonsense. Do you ever make a similar challenge against anyone who says something negative about "whites" (American being implied)? Frank has previously described research showing black American support of hypodescent (especially among American black elites).
It is not nonsense. My point is simple. That term "oreo" is not a commonly used term in black America in 2009, there are no commonly used terms for stuff like that anymore.
The median age for black or African-American was 31.3 years.*
I'm 32, I'm pretty sure I know my generation better than you, that term was used by people older than us, often in the 1980's, but even then I did not hear it outside television very often, some times it was thrown around in the school yard, but rarely.
Racialicious is a site owned by an Asian/white mixed women and just because that site uses a term does not mean it is common in black America. You think the average black person goes to this site? Seriously?
What is an elite? What percentage is that of the black population? AM I elite? I have a master's degree and I'm in the top 5% of African American income, at least. What is elite? Who are these people going around calling people "oreos"? The only time I have heard this term has been from lower class blacks, and as I said, many years ago.
Quote:
Do you ever make a similar challenge against anyone who says something negative about "whites"
I am not concerned with whites.
I'm concerned with the broad general statements you make about black people, statements that are unsubstantiated.
Frank info was posted where? How recent was the survey data done? He has data that shows the average black American calls people "oreos"? Really? Please provide it.
This site is about learning and teaching, you are not doing either.
Oh BTW, does Frank have data on how many whites support the one-drop rule? I would like to see both figures.
Posted: Thu 23 Apr 2009 16:04 Post subject: Re: Black devotion to forced hypodescent
Powell wrote:
Frank has previously described research showing black American support of hypodescent (especially among American black elites).
Dragon Horse wrote:
Frank info was posted where? ... does Frank have data on how many whites support the one-drop rule?
I wish! I have been seeking data on the relative support of the ODR among A-A's versus non-A-A's for years now. I have some pretty good evidence that A-A political leadership (Douglass, Delaney, Du Bois, Washington) in the past expressed rhetorical support of the ODR in the interest of ethnic solidarity. Randall Kennedy also mentions this in Sellout: The Politics of Racial Betrayal (New York: Pantheon, 2008) and Debra J. Dickerson, in The End of Blackness: Returning the Souls of Black Folk to Their Rightful Owners (New York: Pantheon, 2004) argues (to excess) that most A-A's do this today. And, of course, Henry Louis Gates Jr., Gregory Howard Williams, Adrian Piper, and many other academics have made lucrative careers out of preaching the ODR.
And so, like A.D. I get the impression from my friends that non-A-A's are more comfortable with the concept of a White person with a Black grandparent (like Carol Channing, say) or a White person with known, but not individually identified, African slave ancestry (like Heather Locklear, say) than A-A's are. This may be because A-A's think about "racial" classification more often than White folks do.
But I do not have any recent survey data on this. Indeed, every time that the subject comes up here, I plead for any sociology or anthropology student reading these words to use this topic as a term paper and collect some data for us.
Posted: Fri 24 Apr 2009 22:12 Post subject: Re: Black devotion to forced hypodescent
fwsweet wrote:
And so, like A.D. I get the impression from my friends that non-A-A's are more comfortable with the concept of a White person with a Black grandparent (like Carol Channing, say) or a White person with known, but not individually identified, African slave ancestry (like Heather Locklear, say) than A-A's are. This may be because A-A's think about "racial" classification more often than White folks do.
I don't understand this sentence. I remember you saying a while back that among your "white" Cuban/Hispanic friends, you found that they were pretty much nonchalant about the thought of having distant African heritage while the average White American would more than likely "freak out" about having black blood. White Americans are non AA's aren't they? And going back to Hispanics, only 2% of Latinos check off Black anything on the census! I also recall the reaction (I believe it was Mark Shriver's mother) who wasn't too pleased to find that her family had Black blood and begged him to keep it quiet! Maybe she was more comfortable with Black blood being in Carol Channings family since after all they probably aren't related.
Just from general observation it seems that very few people are willing to commit suicide when they find out they have black blood, but they doesn't mean they're exactly proud of it either!
Posted: Fri 24 Apr 2009 23:55 Post subject: Re: Black devotion to forced hypodescent
girlfromthenc wrote:
I remember you saying a while back that among your "white" Cuban/Hispanic friends, you found that they were pretty much nonchalant about the thought of having distant African heritage while the average White American would more than likely "freak out" about having black blood. White Americans are non AA's aren't they?
Those are two different things. My impression is that most non-A-A's (including Whites) do not get upset at the idea that someone else who is not A-A has distant African ancestry. But Whites (as opposed to Hispanics) do get upset by the idea of themselves having African ancestry. In contrast, one-dropping A-A's (as defined above) seem to get upset at the thought that anyone of any sub-Saharan admixture would reject an A-A ethnopolitical self identity.
girlfromthenc wrote:
Maybe she was more comfortable with Black blood being in Carol Channings family since after all they probably aren't related.
Precisely. That is my take on it also.
girlfromthenc wrote:
only 2% of Latinos check off Black anything on the census!
Of course. "Black" on the census means a member of the African-American community. No matter how much African admixture a Hispanic has, he/she is not a member of that ethnic group.
[Somali born ex-Dutch Lower House Member Ayaan Hirsi Ali]
[The St Moritzburg Treasure with a silver and golden Moor. How did blacks came from this…]
[…to that? Hanged runaway slave by John Steadman in Voyage to Surinam (1799)]
Although all of us are against Racialism and Racism, we all still seem to think, speak and argue in terms of black, white, SSA, AA or non-AA. We can not get past this because Race, which does not exist, still matters. Particularly irksome to me is the use of SSA on this forum, because to me it refers to the worst excesses of nineteen century racism. I think about a magazine article by Alisson Blakely about how terrible blacks were discussed and labelled in Dutch dictionaries and handbooks. With SSA is meant ‘True Negro,’ the ‘ugly’ blacks who have black skin, frizzled hair and most unforgiving, thick prognastic lips and a broad nose. Never mind that the Chinese and Indonesians have subnasal prognatism too, but they have straight hair and lighter skin; so they are forgiven for this terrible biometric offence.
In my mind the ‘True Negro’ type, which I call Classical African type after reading Snowden’s Blacks in Antiquity, is found in the whole of Africa and beyond. Also among the ‘Black Caucasians’ or ‘African Caucasians’ nations, the non-SSA Africans. These ideas have been discredited long time ago, and I find that these kind of ‘whites’ are not accepted nor treated as whites, nor do they see themselves as whites. The Classical type was used in European art from 1120-1789 to symbolise ‘Blue blood.’ Blue Men is how European blacks, who were Christians, were called in the medieval period and sometimes depicted as blue people as well. This was also to set them apart from blacks who were heathens and Muslims.
Because the hatred against blacks is so irrational and overwrought I looked for a direct conflict between black and white. Unlike A. Blakely in Blacks in the Dutch world and Kim F. Hall in Things of Darkness: Economics of Race and Gender in Early Modern England (1996), I cannot fathom racial hatred and racism without the substantial presence of peoples of the offending race. That’s one reason why I have concluded that racism was used against the European blue blooded elite, who was black and coloured in looks and preached black superiority. They advertised their blackness with the extensive use of images of The Moor. We are however shown revisionist, whitened portraits of the old nobility members and kings who are described as ‘black, brown, chimney sweep, black as chimney, not the white hands, brown, swarthy, very dark, bad complexion, The Black Boy, Black Tom etc. This ongoing racism started in the eighteen century and was used to free France and Europe from a system I have defined as ‘Reversed Apartheid’. So I say that white superiority today is based on fake, whitened portraits. The idea that blacks play no part at all in Modern history is hard to believe, especially with all these pitch-black Moors in European art.
Earlier I stated that the one-drop-rule reminds me of how Europeans struggled to find one noble ancestor to claim a noble title for themselves, because they needed the blue blood in their veins to be accepted, bye and bye, as nobles. Black researchers as J.A.Rogers in his Sex and Race came to embrace the one-drop-rule dogma to discredit it by showing African admixture in European royalty, with some even being described as showing Classical African features, and portraits which show these looks.
To me the word racialism is levelled against black activist who forge a black identity for a black community who is targeted for their ethnicity, their culture and looks. Like pay back by whites who have been accused of racism for ages by blacks. The tables are turned and now blacks have to answer for preaching a black ideology while whites are just whites. If I read how some folks carry on I would believe that there never was any racism, just blacks burning crosses and hanging themselves to make whites look bad. Perhaps there even was no slavery, just international labour movements, as a Dutch researcher will have it. But it’s like with men and women rights: men in general will not lift a finger to change a situation which favours them and so whites will not help to change a situation of white supremacy which favours whites.
People who are not familiar with my research and ideas should look for my widely read, illustrated Blue Blood Is Black Blood threads on this forum
'
FAQ
Search
Register
Log in
