Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1763 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Wed 03 Jun 2009 21:15 Post subject: Obama says US one of the largest Muslim nations
Obama goes out of his way to say we are not a Christian nation, but yet he says we're one of the biggest Muslim nations. How this can be is above and beyond me. Maybe press secretary Gibbs can explain it!!
Quote:
Barack Hussein Obama: US "one of the largest Muslim countries in the world"
Posted By: Toby Harnden at Jun 3, 2009 at 04:14:00 [General]
Posted in: Foreign Correspondents
It is important to note that "if you actually took the number of Muslim Americans, we'd be one of the largest Muslim countries in the world".
So says President Barack Obama. Or I should say: Barack Hussein Obama.
That's right: Barack Hussein Obama. Say it proud. Say it out loud. The middle moniker that dared not speak its name during the election campaign is now front and centre of the US president's attempt to woo the Muslim world, the theme of his visits to Riyadh on Wednesday and Cairo on Thursday.
Petrified of the potential political fallout of being branded a Muslim, Candidate Obama - a practicing Christian - never used the name "Hussein" and its use was frowned upon as a forbidden code for the nutty accusation that he was some kind of Islamic Manchurian candidate.
No more. To say Barack Hussein Obama - BHO for short - now appears to be the height of political correctness.
As I argue in this analysis for the Telegraph dead tree edition, Obama is seeking to return to a Middle East policy based on realism - buttressed by the bona fides of his own multi-cultural (including Muslim) background.
In Strasbourg two months ago, the president tried out his full name. Days later in Ankara, he was introduced to the Turkish parliament by his full name.
As ABC's Jake Tapper and Sunlen Miller astutely outline here, the Obama administration is embracing the new president's inner Muslim, as it were. Deputy national security adviser stated that Obama had "experienced Islam on three continents...growing up in Indonesia, having a Muslim father -- obviously Muslim Americans [are] a key part of Illinois and Chicago".
So that's once, twice, three times a Muslim?
Just in case the Arab world hasn't yet got this message of inbuilt tolerance, Mr Obama himself has gone a step further. In an interview with France's Canal Plus released on Tuesday evening, he suggested that the United States might be a Muslim country.
Obama said he wanted to "create a better dialogue so that the Muslim world understands more effectively how the United States but also how the West thinks about many of these difficult issues like terrorism, like democracy, to discuss the framework for what's happened in Iraq and Afghanistan and our outreach to Iran, and also how we view the prospects for peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians".
So far, so blah - President George W. Bush often expressed much the same sentiments.
But then, as is his habit , Obama turned the concept around. "Now, the flip side is I think that the United States and the West generally, we have to educate ourselves more effectively on Islam.
"And one of the points I want to make is, is that if you actually took the number of Muslim Americans, we'd be one of the largest Muslim countries in the world. And so there's got to be a better dialogue and a better understanding between the two peoples."
Obama said in Turkey that Americans "do not consider ourselves a Christian nation or a Jewish nation or a Muslim nation". John McCain was criticised in 2007 for saying the US was "a Christian nation", later amending this to "a Judeo-Christian valued nation".
Of course, the concept of separation of church and state, which derived from the First Amendment to the Constitution, means that the US is not officially a Christian nation or a nation of any other particular religion. Which means, I suppose, that the US is as much a Muslim nation as a Christian one.
It's a bold - some might say audacious - turnaround by the president.
It's also a classically Obamaesque move.
During the 2008 campaign, he skillfully made himself, through his life story, the personification of change.
Now, implicitly contrasting himself with the born-again, evangelical Bush who pursued a post-9/11 "crusade" against terrorism, Obama is presenting himself to the Islamic world as the personification of a new, tolerant - and, yes, partly Muslim - America.
UPDATE: The excellent Don Surber crunches the numbers and points out that Obama's claim is highly dubious. According to Surber, the US has an estimated three to eight million Muslims, less than one per cent of the world's total and less than at least 23 other countries.
The average claim for the US Muslim population is about six million. The precise figure is difficult to get because it's not included in US census data and many put the figure at much, much less.
But even if we assume there are six million Muslims in the US, that makes it only the 34th biggest Muslim country in the world - behind Indonesia, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Turkey, Egypt, Iran, Nigeria, China, Ethiopia, Algeria, Morocco, Afghanistan, Sudan, Iraq, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Uzbekistan, Yemen, Tanzania, Syria, Malaysia, Niger, Senegal, Ghana, Tunisia, Somalia, Guinea, Kenya, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Burkina Faso and Tajikistan.
UPDATE 2: Debbie Schlussel cites a reputable survey by Pew that puts the number of Muslims in the US at 1.8 million. This would make it the 48th biggest Muslim country, after the above list plus France, Libya, Jordan, Israel, Turkmenistan, Uganda, Kyrgyzstan, Mauritania, Germany, Kuwait, Oman, Eritrea, Lebanon and Serbia and Montenegro - and just above Britain, which would be the 50th.
He obviously needs a course in numbers and number crunching. Much like he needs a course in geography to remind him that there is no Austrian language.
The United States is in fact a Judeo-Christian based nation in its principles, though there is no official state religion.
I don't know the specific numbers of Muslim Americans, but there are many Americans who are Muslim... and Hindu and Buddhist, and even non-religious. They are Americans too. I understand that you would like it to be recognized that Christians constitute a large percentage of Americans, and even a majority. That is true. America is largely Christian. But Christianity and Judaism do not constitute the religion of America. So it would be as correct, or incorrect, to say that America is a Muslim nation as it would be to say that America is a Christian nation.
According to this Wikipedia page HERE (Im not necessarily claiming it to be an authority) "Some sources mention estimates as high as 6-7 million."
Comparing that number with this list of populations of Muslims in other nations HERE, it seems far fetched to me to state that "we'd be one of the largest Muslim countries in the world." That same source also lists the population of US Muslims as being 1,806,840. Quite a bit less than the figure cited in my first paragraph above.
So I have to agree with you that Barack is stretching figures for the sake of expressing solidarity with Muslims.
There's a big fat "IF" in the sentence that indicates one ought to take it as a hypothetical rather than a statement of fact. Obama is not saying that the U.S. is a Muslim nation. All he is doing is drawing attention to the fact that there are a lot of Muslims here.
Similarly, someone who points out that, IF Texas was a country its GDP would be larger than those of many nations isn't advocating for secession.
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1763 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Thu 04 Jun 2009 20:28 Post subject:
sagascend wrote:
There's a big fat "IF" in the sentence that indicates one ought to take it as a hypothetical rather than a statement of fact. Obama is not saying that the U.S. is a Muslim nation. All he is doing is drawing attention to the fact that there are a lot of Muslims here.
OK, but his statement is still wrong based on the numbers of Muslims here in the US.
Quote:
But even if we assume there are six million Muslims in the US, that makes it only the 34th biggest Muslim country in the world - behind Indonesia, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Turkey, Egypt, Iran, Nigeria, China, Ethiopia, Algeria, Morocco, Afghanistan, Sudan, Iraq, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Uzbekistan, Yemen, Tanzania, Syria, Malaysia, Niger, Senegal, Ghana, Tunisia, Somalia, Guinea, Kenya, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Burkina Faso and Tajikistan.
6 to 8 million out of 300 million + does not sound like a lot of anything to me.
I think America is, among other things, a nation that respects religious differences and the individual right of conscience to reliously identify as one sees fit... at least in so far as any nation has ever been successful at being so. An imperfect and rocky road perhaps, but I do think that is a meaningful and significant part of America. No?
Even if his figures are a bit off, it is a good thing that Barack Obama wishes to reach out with a hand of solidarity toward self identified Muslims in other nations, isn't it?
Posted: Thu 04 Jun 2009 22:54 Post subject: Re: Obama says US one of the largest Muslim nations
DChapman wrote:
Much like he needs a course in geography to remind him that there is no Austrian language.
It is really a matter of semantics as to whether or not it is correct to term Austrian as a language. Austrian German is distinct in many ways from other forms of German. In fact, the "Österreichisches Wörterbuch" states specific grammar rules and is a dictionary using distinct Austrian spelling. So, in a meaningful sense, Austrian is a language.
Here is a dictionary definition for the term language, which seems to be in question-
Quote:
language |ˈla ng gwij|
noun
2 the system of communication used by a particular community or country : the book was translated into twenty-five languages.
Regardless, Barack Obama did not say that Austrian was a language. What he said can be heard word for word HERE.
Barack Obama wrote:
It was also interesting to see that political interaction in Europe is not that different from the Unites States Senate. There's a lot of... um... I don't know what the term is in Austrian... "wheeling and dealing." And, you know, people are pursuing their interests...
Barack Obama was searching for an equivalent Austrian aphorism for the American "wheeling and dealing." There is nothing incorrect about the idea that Austrians have particular aphorisms. They do.
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1763 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Fri 05 Jun 2009 01:59 Post subject:
erasmusinfinity wrote:
It is really a matter of semantics as to whether or not it is correct to term Austrian as a language. Austrian German is distinct in many ways from other forms of German. In fact, the "Österreichisches Wörterbuch" states specific grammar rules and is a dictionary using distinct Austrian spelling. So, in a meaningful sense, Austrian is a language.
Not really. As much as "American" is a language. It is not. American English is distinct from British English, probably more so than Austrian German and its German counterpart, but both are recognized as English.
erasmusinfinity wrote:
Barack Obama was searching for an equivalent Austrian aphorism for the American "wheeling and dealing." There is nothing incorrect about the idea that Austrians have particular aphorisms. They do.
Fair enough. The Yanks and the Brits and the Ausies have distinct aphorisms, so I see the point.
My point was, if Bush said those remarks, the media would have jumped all over it..."look, that idiot thinks Austrian is a language." But Obama gets a pass as usual.
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1763 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Fri 05 Jun 2009 02:13 Post subject:
erasmusinfinity wrote:
I think America is, among other things, a nation that respects religious differences and the individual right of conscience to reliously identify as one sees fit... at least in so far as any nation has ever been successful at being so. An imperfect and rocky road perhaps, but I do think that is a meaningful and significant part of America. No?
Even if his figures are a bit off, it is a good thing that Barack Obama wishes to reach out with a hand of solidarity toward self identified Muslims in other nations, isn't it?
It is a good thing. However, if I were one of those folks, I would think I was being plagerized, taken as a sucker. If you want to make friends with me, then don't lie to me or take me as a fool.
It's like a situation some years ago when a executive was talking to me. All of a sudden he brought up Tiger Woods and how great is was that he was a successful golfer, yada, yada, yada. Which is all fine and dandy, but I'm not into golf. He plagerized me, and hence, I had no respect for him.
Back to Muslims, I tell my right of center friends that most Muslims would be on our side in that they are very conservative in most of their philosophies. So it would not be wise to alienate them, being we on the right need as many allies as possible!
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1763 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Fri 05 Jun 2009 13:22 Post subject:
erasmusinfinity wrote:
...But Christianity and Judaism do not constitute the religion of America. So it would be as correct, or incorrect, to say that America is a Muslim nation as it would be to say that America is a Christian nation.
That is true that there is no official religion of the United States. It would be unconstitutional. That stated, using this logic, America is not an English language nation because English is not the official language of the United States, though all offcial business and correspondence of the government and most of the people are conducted in English. Granted the US is perhaps the 5th or 6th largest Spanish speaking country, but no official business is conducted in Spanish. Contrary to Canada where official Canadian business is conducted in French and English, even in Saskatewan (Candian Federal government). French is the official language of Quebec.
Being that the majority of Americans say they are Christian, then America is in fact, a Christian nation. This does not mean that you cannot be a Muslim here without fearing any kind of repercussions as you would in many Muslim nations.
That is true that there is no official religion of the United States. It would be unconstitutional. That stated, using this logic, America is not an English language nation because English is not the official language of the United States, though all offcial business and correspondence of the government and most of the people are conducted in English. Granted the US is perhaps the 5th or 6th largest Spanish speaking country, but no official business is conducted in Spanish. Contrary to Canada where official Canadian business is conducted in French and English, even in Saskatewan (Candian Federal government). French is the official language of Quebec.
Being that the majority of Americans say they are Christian, then America is in fact, a Christian nation.
It seems to me, here, that discussions about how Christian America is stray significantly from the matter of simply describing the popularity of a particular religion in the US. Are you saying that because Americans are largely Christian in number that Christianity is part of some sort of hidden underlying doctrine? If so, and accepting that our constitution makes the legality of religious imposition on government and individual religious freedom rather clear, at what point for you does consensus become part of this hidden underlying doctrine? Is America also a Catholic nation since it has more Catholics than any other particular denomination? Stepping outside of religion as in your language analogy, is America also a "white" nation?
DChapman wrote:
This does not mean that you cannot be a Muslim here without fearing any kind of repercussions as you would in many Muslim nations.
This point certainly validates Barack Obama's efforts. Muslims should not feel that America is a nation out to get them for their religion, which many Muslims around the world do think. It is a nation of religious diversity and tolerance that, for the most part, wishes to include them as allies. Sure, there are some here who would seek to impose upon their sense of religious liberty. But religious freedom here, for Muslims, is better than it is in most of the world and even in the predominantly Muslim countries in which they reside.
Many Muslims may find Obama's words of solidarity to be insincere, but I think we have determined that they are not insincere. And, for what it's worth, I know Muslims in the US and in Egypt who have applauded his efforts.
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1763 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Fri 05 Jun 2009 15:25 Post subject:
erasmusinfinity wrote:
It seems to me, here, that discussions about how Christian America is stray significantly from the matter of simply describing the popularity of a particular religion in the US. Are you saying that because Americans are largely Christian in number that Christianity is part of some sort of hidden underlying doctrine? If so, and accepting that our constitution makes the legality of religious imposition on government and individual religious freedom rather clear, at what point for you does consensus become part of this hidden underlying doctrine? Is America also a Catholic nation since it has more Catholics than any other particular denomination? Stepping outside of religion as in your language analogy, is America also a "white" nation?
Christianity is in a sense part of a doctrine, though not necessarily hidden. Christmas is a legal federal holiday. Thanksgiving, though not a religious holiday, has its roots in giving thanks to God. The week of Passover and Easter, though not federally recognized as holidays, has large implications in government and business. The stock markets are closed on Good Friday. Public schools are off on Good Friday and the week after Easter Sunday, at least where I live. Schools in the New York Metro are off on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kipper, days that public schools in the South would not be off on.
This nation and it's Constitution were in fact founded on the principles of Judeo-Christian philosophy to an extent. What they did in the First Amendment was to prohibit an official state religion funded by the taxpayer such as England had with the Anglican Church which is still the official Church of England. I have a litany of quotes by the Founding Fathers on their intentions of the First amendment and how they viewed America as a nation founded on Christian principles. They also made sure one would have religious freedom without having that right being inhibited by the government.
Would I deem the US a Catholic nation because roughly 25% of the populaton is Catholic? Yes and no. But Catholicism is a part of Christianity. Let's face it, the US is much more of a Catholic nation than it is a Muslim nation using Obama's logic.
Yes, I do think America is a primarily "white" nation. It certainly is not majority "non-white".
Posted: Fri 05 Jun 2009 15:31 Post subject: nation and religion
DChapman wrote:
erasmusinfinity wrote:
It seems to me, here, that discussions about how Christian America is stray significantly from the matter of simply describing the popularity of a particular religion in the US. Are you saying that because Americans are largely Christian in number that Christianity is part of some sort of hidden underlying doctrine? If so, and accepting that our constitution makes the legality of religious imposition on government and individual religious freedom rather clear, at what point for you does consensus become part of this hidden underlying doctrine? Is America also a Catholic nation since it has more Catholics than any other particular denomination? Stepping outside of religion as in your language analogy, is America also a "white" nation?
Christianity is in a sense part of a doctrine, though not necessarily hidden. Christmas is a legal federal holiday. Thanksgiving, though not a religious holiday, has its roots in giving thanks to God. The week of Passover and Easter, though not federally recognized as holidays, has large implications in government and business. The stock markets are closed on Good Friday. Public schools are off on Good Friday and the week after Easter Sunday, at least where I live. Schools in the New York Metro are off on Rosh Hassana and Yom Kipper, days that public schools in the South would not be off on.
This nation and it's Constitution were in fact founded on the principles of Judeo-Christian philosophy to an extent. What they did in the First Amendment was to prohibit an official state religion funded by the taxpayer such as England had with the Anglican Church which is still the official Church of England. I have a litany of quotes by the Founding Fathers on their intentions of the First amendment and how they viewed America as a nation founded on Christian principles. They also made sure one would have religious freedom without having that right being inhibited by the government.
Would I deem the US a Catholic nation because roughly 25% of the populaton is Catholic? Yes and no. But Catholicism is a part of Christianity. Let's face it, the US is much more of a Catholic nation than it is a Muslim nation using Obama's logic.
Yes, I do think America is a primarily "white" nation. It certainly is not majority "non-white".
We should also note that those people who love to predict a "non-white" majority in the future, fail to consider the changing nature of racial identification. Before the rise of the Chicano "Brown Power" movement and affirmative action, Latinos were very happy to be classified as white (regardless of skin color or ancestry).
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1763 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Fri 05 Jun 2009 15:48 Post subject:
Powell wrote:
We should also note that those people who love to predict a "non-white" majority in the future, fail to consider the changing nature of racial identification. Before the rise of the Chicano "Brown Power" movement and affirmative action, Latinos were very happy to be classified as white (regardless of skin color or ancestry).
Posted: Fri 05 Jun 2009 15:52 Post subject: Re: nation and religion
Powell wrote:
We should also note that those people who love to predict a "non-white" majority in the future, fail to consider the changing nature of racial identification. Before the rise of the Chicano "Brown Power" movement and affirmative action, Latinos were very happy to be classified as white (regardless of skin color or ancestry).
True. Just to be clear, I am not one of those people who loves to predict a "non-white" majority in the future.
DChapman wrote:
But Catholicism is a part of Christianity. Let's face it, the US is much more of a Catholic nation than it is a Muslim nation using Obama's logic.
Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all Monotheistic and Abrahamic faiths. In that sense they are the same. In many more particular senses they are different. Catholicism and protestantism are both forms of Christianity. In many more particular senses they are different. A variety of denominations constitute forms of protestantism and in that sense are the same as one another. In many more particular senses they are different.
It is rather common to here the phrase "America is a Christian nation" replaced by "America is a Judaio-Christian nation." Where we draw the lines is an illustration of our individual preferences.
DChapman wrote:
Yes, I do think America is a primarily "white" nation. It certainly is not majority "non-white".
Yes it is. My point was that it is not only "white" interests that matter, simply because that is the majority. Same goes for religion.
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1763 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Fri 05 Jun 2009 15:55 Post subject:
erasmusinfinity wrote:
But religious freedom here, for Muslims, is better than it is in most of the world and even in the predominantly Muslim countries in which they reside.
You're absolutely right!!!!! I once had an office mate who is a Muslim from Bangladesh who lived in Africa, Russia, Germany, Suadi Arabia, and other places. He emphatically told me the US is the best place in the world for Muslims. And I believe this to be true. He also had no problem with America being considered a Christian nation. Well because, it is. And because it is, people like my old office mate are able to practice their religion freely without worry. This is not from me, but from him.
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1763 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Fri 05 Jun 2009 16:24 Post subject:
erasmusinfinity wrote:
Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all Monotheistic and Abrahamic faiths. In that sense they are the same. In many more particular senses they are different. Catholicism and protestantism are both forms of Christianity. In many more particular senses they are different. A variety of denominations constitute forms of protestantism and in that sense are the same as one another. In many more particular senses they are different.
It is rather common to here the phrase "America is a Christian nation" replaced by "America is a Judaio-Christian nation." Where we draw the lines is an illustration of our individual preferences.
There are many similarities between the three religions you mentioned. Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism. IMO a true Christian cannot be anti-Semitic. Islam is a little different, but it should be respected because we all have the same goals. Muslims support traditional families and values.
The Judeo-Christian is the more appropriate IMO. Without Judaism, there is no Christianity.
I think America is, among other things, a nation that respects religious differences and the individual right of conscience to reliously identify as one sees fit... at least in so far as any nation has ever been successful at being so. An imperfect and rocky road perhaps, but I do think that is a meaningful and significant part of America. No?
Even if his figures are a bit off, it is a good thing that Barack Obama wishes to reach out with a hand of solidarity toward self identified Muslims in other nations, isn't it?
In his capacity as POTUS no, especially given the content of his speech.
Presidents usually don't "reach out" to religions, just nations. Further, his speech may be interpreted by Muslims differently from the way he intended.
America may be a place that respects religious differences, however many Islamic nations are not. Institutionalized mistreatment of religious minorities (the Baha’is in Iran and Egypt as well as Coptic Christians in Egypt come to mind) and even smaller Islamic sects like the Ahmadiya is not uncommon and seen as completely in line with Islamic teachings in these places. And there’s that whole apostasy thing.
In extending a hand of solidarity to "the Muslim World," will Obama call these behaviors into question? What if some of the more unsavory aspects of Islam manifest themselves here in the U.S. (e.g., death penalty for apostasy and blaspheming The Prophet)? Will Obama shield the faithful from justified criticism or legal prosecution?
The actual number of Muslims in the U.S. is less important to me than some of the things said in the speech and their implications here in the U.S. Additionally, he suffers from that annoying habit many people have of equating Arab and Muslim.
In any case, here are some critical reviews of his Cairo speech.
But religious freedom here, for Muslims, is better than it is in most of the world and even in the predominantly Muslim countries in which they reside.
You're absolutely right!!!!! I once had an office mate who is a Muslim from Bangladesh who lived in Africa, Russia, Germany, Suadi Arabia, and other places. He emphatically told me the US is the best place in the world for Muslims. And I believe this to be true. He also had no problem with America being considered a Christian nation. Well because, it is. And because it is, people like my old office mate are able to practice their religion freely without worry. This is not from me, but from him.
Um could we be more specific here in what constitutes religious freedom for many Muslims?
Um could we be more specific here in what constitutes religious freedom for many Muslims?
Well, I agree with the point in your last post that-
G-Man wrote:
America may be a place that respects religious differences, however many Islamic nations are not. Institutionalized mistreatment of religious minorities (the Baha’is in Iran and Egypt as well as Coptic Christians in Egypt come to mind) and even smaller Islamic sects like the Ahmadiya is not uncommon and seen as completely in line with Islamic teachings in these places. And there’s that whole apostasy thing.
Similarly, I think that disempowered factions and denominations of Islam within these nations suffer from similar mistreatment as might adherents of Baha'i or Copts. In the US there is a right of dissent, even if it is sometimes under attack.
G-Man wrote:
In extending a hand of solidarity to "the Muslim World," will Obama call these behaviors into question? What if some of the more unsavory aspects of Islam manifest themselves here in the U.S. (e.g., death penalty for apostasy and blaspheming The Prophet)? Will Obama shield the faithful from justified criticism or legal prosecution?
Respect for the right of all individuals to religiously identify as they see fit is not the same thing as respecting whatever ideas and/or practices can be ascribed to a particular religion. Criticizing a belief or practice is not the same thing as criticizing an entire group of people. Again, I think that the right of dissent is a key ingredient here. Criticize ideas, beliefs, actions... not the person or groups of persons.
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