The academic blogs are alive about this-- half the communities are accusing Gates of "pulling the race card" or using a situation to further an agenda, and the other half is pointing the unfairness of the situation.
Quite frankly, you can yell anything you like at an officer-- as long as you're not inciting a riot, threatening bodliy harm, or interfering with an ongoing ivestistgation (and that rises to a level of INTERFERENCE--ie, you're blocking them from getting to a crime scene, etc.)
Local laws vary (In NY it is agaginst some local laws to tie a girafee to a phone pole... No, I'm not kidding...) but usually a "disturabnce" or "tumultuous behavior" will rise to a level where it shocks the conscience-- the person is phyically swiping at the officers, spitting on them, or throewing things.
Because I usually avoid being arrested, my usual tactic is to speak slowly and comly. I keep my hands where they can be seen. I explain that I have a JD. I also (if my son, w/ a disability) is in the car and has his SmartPen with him, explain that an Assistive Technology device used by a PWD (Person with a Disability) is acivated, and is recording every word.
Darn. They get so damned nice when their actual words are being recorded by what the Federal Rules of Evidence consider to be above reproach.
Gates should have had a SmartPen with him.
~PW (Juris Doctor)
Can you record a conversation without letting the officer know?
I mean on my cell phone I can record conversations, but do I have to notify him/her?
CHICAGO — Ralph Medley, a retired professor of philosophy and English who is black, remembers the day he was arrested on his own property, a rental building here in Hyde Park where he was doing some repair work for tenants.
A concerned neighbor had called the police to report a suspicious character. And that was not the first time Mr. Medley said he had been wrongly apprehended. A call Mr. Medley placed to 911 several years ago about a burglary resulted with the police showing up to frisk him.
“But I’m the one who called you!” he said he remembers pleading with the officers.
Like countless other blacks around the country, Mr. Medley was revisiting his encounters with the police as a national discussion about race and law enforcement unfolded after the arrest of Henry Louis Gates Jr., Harvard’s prominent scholar of African-American history. Professor Gates was arrested for disorderly conduct July 16 at his home in Cambridge, Mass., as the police investigated a report of a possible break-in there. The charge was later dropped, and the Cambridge Police Department said the incident was “regrettable and unfortunate.”
In interviews here and in Atlanta, in Web postings and on television talk shows, blacks and others said that what happened to Professor Gates was a common, if unacknowledged, reality for many people of color. They also said that beyond race, the ego of the police officer probably played a role.
But more deeply, many said that the incident was a disappointing reminder that for all the racial progress the country seemed to have made with the election of President Obama, little had changed in the everyday lives of most people in terms of race relations.
“No matter how much education you have as a person of color, you still can’t escape institutional racism,” said Keith E. Horton, a sports and entertainment lawyer in Chicago who is black. “That’s what the issue is to me.”
To be sure, people have found fault with how Professor Gates responded to the arresting officer, Sgt. James Crowley, who said he was simply fulfilling his duty in investigating the report of a burglary in progress.
The police and Professor Gates offered differing accounts of what happened after officers arrived. The police said Professor Gates initially refused to show identification and repeatedly shouted at officers. Professor Gates said that he had shown photo identification to Sergeant Crowley but that the sergeant had not appeared to believe that he lived there. He also said he had brought up race during the confrontation but was not disorderly.
Many comments posted online suggested that Professor Gates, 58, had made a tricky situation worse by not easily cooperating. Even some blacks acknowledged that he did not help himself by refusing to show deference to a police officer.
“It is unwise for anyone of any race to raise their voice to a law enforcement officer,” said Al Vivian, a diversity consultant in Atlanta who is black. “But the result at the end of the day is this was a man who violated no law, was in his own house, who is the top academic star at the top academic school in the nation, and he was still taken away and arrested.”
At a news conference on Wednesday night, President Obama said he thought the Cambridge police had “acted stupidly” in the arrest of Professor Gates.
“I think it’s worse than stupid,” said Mr. Medley, 65, the retired Chicago professor. “I think it was mean-spirited and ill-intended.”
In interviews, blacks and whites of various ages and experiences with law enforcement showed a tendency to give a benefit of the doubt to Professor Gates over the police.
“It seems to me that Dr. Gates was simply arrested for being upset, and he was arrested for being upset because he’s a black man,” said Wayne Martin, 25, an official at the Atlanta Housing Authority, who is also black.
The way Mr. Martin described himself, he could be the very definition of a “post-racial” American. “I have children I’m trying to raise not to see race,” he said. “I’m beyond the whole black-white thing. It doesn’t matter to me.”
Yet Mr. Martin could not think of any other way than racism to explain what had happened to Professor Gates. He is fascinated by the story. On Wednesday, he changed his Facebook status to: “Wayne Martin is wondering when it became illegal to be angry at a law enforcement official.”
Mr. Martin said that he was heartened to see Mr. Obama — who said he was a friend of Professor Gates — address the issue, and that while he agreed with Mr. Obama’s interpretation of the incident, he thought the word “stupidly” had been poorly chosen.
“That choice of the word was something that I don’t agree with,” Mr. Martin said. “To use such a common offensive term, it almost lowers him down to the level of the folks he’s wagging his finger at.”
Sabine Charles, 37, a white cardiologist who lives in Hyde Park, is married to a black man and said that she could not count how many times people had interrupted the two over the years to ask her, quietly, “Is this man bothering you?”
“I say, ‘Guess what? He’s not! We’re actually on a romantic date, can’t you tell?’ ” she said. “Even here in this diverse area I’ve heard people say, ‘Look at those black guys coming toward us.’ I say, ‘Yes, but they’re wearing lacrosse shorts and Calvin Klein jeans. They’re probably the kids of the professor down the street.’ ”
“You have to be able to discern differences between people,” she said, criticizing the practice of racial profiling. “It’s very frustrating.”
Mr. Vivian, the diversity trainer in Atlanta, said that what happened to Professor Gates was “age old” in America, but that what was different this time was that it happened in a so-called post-racial America.
Mr. Vivian, 47, said that he had been unfairly stopped by the police in the past, but that he lived by “an unwritten code” for dealing with these incidents. And Dr. Gates certainly did not obey the code, he said.
Quiet politeness is Rule No. 1 in surviving an incident of racial profiling, he said. So is the frequent use of the word “sir.”
“People used to say, ‘Look, there’s a Colin Powell. There’s an Oprah Winfrey.’ Now they say, ‘There’s a black president.’ I say, I’m happy to see the exceptions. There’s always an exception. But I’m interested in how society treats the average person.”
That there is a well-known code of behavior familiar to most minorities who are stopped by the police, Mr. Vivian said, is testament enough of a problem.
“It clearly says that we have a lot of work to do,” he said.
The bottom line for me is that Gates may have behaved poorly, but he did not break any laws. Therefore, the choice to arrest him was based an ego-driven power trip that cops on American streets are notorious for. I am much more concerned with the ability of armed cops to "feed the beast" and illegitimately arrest innocent people than I am of an elderly unarmed man throwing a temper tantrum in his own house.
I suspect that law enforcement units across the country are filled with the types of people who feed off of the power that comes with being a police officer, making these incidents more likely (and escalations to violence more likely as well). Why should our society call thuggery by another name because the police are the culprits? I certainly understand that cops see things day in and day out that make them jaded and jumpy, but if citizens are expected to control themselves then so should the "peace officers" that are supposed to protect them.
excessive force, lying to get answers, manipulation of the law takes place by law enforcement all the time. These upholders of the law.
One of the suburbs:Greece NY here has the whole Police dept under investigation for all kinds of fraudulent crimes and abuse of power. Bribes, There have been police officers who cause accidents because they were under the influence and got off a whole slew of things just came out.
Can you record a conversation without letting the officer know? I mean on my cell phone I can record conversations, but do I have to notify him/her?
I am not a lawyer, but I would not hesitate to record (or even film) interactions with others that may be disputed later. If the need to use them ever arose, I would turn the recordings over to my lawyer and let him decide. YouTube has many dozens of secretly filmed police meltdowns and abuses.
Joined: 02 May 2006 {Posts: 462 } Location: Île-de-France
Posted: Fri 24 Jul 2009 15:34 Post subject:
Quote:
The bottom line for me is that Gates may have behaved poorly, but he did not break any laws. Therefore, the choice to arrest him was based an ego-driven power trip that cops on American streets are notorious for. I am much more concerned with the ability of armed cops to "feed the beast" and illegitimately arrest innocent people than I am of an elderly unarmed man throwing a temper tantrum in his own house.
I suspect that law enforcement units across the country are filled with the types of people who feed off of the power that comes with being a police officer, making these incidents more likely (and escalations to violence more likely as well). Why should our society call thuggery by another name because the police are the culprits? I certainly understand that cops see things day in and day out that make them jaded and jumpy, but if citizens are expected to control themselves then so should the "peace officers" that are supposed to protect them.
I agree with this. I have a brother who was a cop for four years before he quit. He told me there were generally three types of police officers. 1) Those who should have been social workers whose hearts are in the right place but quickly burn out (him). 2) Those who just like the job security who do the least amount of work possible to avoid being fired. 3) And finally those with an amoral or semi-sociopath type A personality, who thrive off the rush of using force against others. My brother calls them bullies who joined the winning team.
The first type don't last long, leaving the ranks of police dominated by the second two.
What most surprises me about this case is that Professor Gates apparently doesn't realize that this is how everyone-regardless of their racial or ethnic affiliation-is treated by the police in the US if they do not defer to their authority.
The bottom line for me is that Gates may have behaved poorly, but he did not break any laws. Therefore, the choice to arrest him was based an ego-driven power trip that cops on American streets are notorious for. I am much more concerned with the ability of armed cops to "feed the beast" and illegitimately arrest innocent people than I am of an elderly unarmed man throwing a temper tantrum in his own house.
I suspect that law enforcement units across the country are filled with the types of people who feed off of the power that comes with being a police officer, making these incidents more likely (and escalations to violence more likely as well). Why should our society call thuggery by another name because the police are the culprits? I certainly understand that cops see things day in and day out that make them jaded and jumpy, but if citizens are expected to control themselves then so should the "peace officers" that are supposed to protect them.
I agree with this. I have a brother who was a cop for four years before he quit. He told me there were generally three types of police officers. 1) Those who should have been social workers whose hearts are in the right place but quickly burn out (him). 2) Those who just like the job security who do the least amount of work possible to avoid being fired. 3) And finally those with an amoral or semi-sociopath type A personality, who thrive off the rush of using force against others. My brother calls them bullies who joined the winning team.
The first type don't last long, leaving the ranks of police dominated by the second two.
What most surprises me about this case is that Professor Gates apparently doesn't realize that this is how everyone-regardless of their racial or ethnic affiliation-is treated by the police in the US if they do not defer to their authority.
I'm not surprised at all that Gates seems to believe that white police officers lovingly embrace all other whites as brothers and sisters. Intellectually, people like him may know that isn't true, but the EMOTIONAL belief is very strong.
I do believe that gates could have reacted better but that is not the issue here.
According to Gates he reacted appropriately. It was the police officer who, acording to Gates, reacted unprofessionally and in a racist manner prior to arresting him.
anonymouse wrote:
This case, IMHO, is not about racism but racial sensitivity or in this case racial insensitivity. To someone who probably has been harassed by the police in the past while in the public it must have been the straw that broke the camel's back to have it happen in his own home.
And how was he being harrassed in his home by a police officer asking him for identification after telling Gates that the police received a call that a break in took place at Gates's address?
Also, how is one to approach a black male sensitively under these circumstances? Based on the officer's report, the mere act of asking Gates for identification and presenting reasons why was enough to set Gates off.
anonymouse wrote:
And I suspect Gates is not the only black man in America who would become enraged by being questioned by police while standing in his own home.
Apparently so. It appears that the act of questioning by police in someone's home as opposed to how one is questioned by the police and under what circumstances is enough to induce fits of rage.
Skip Gates, please sit down
You are suffering from what I call the "Ivy League Effect"
By a Phantom Negro
Editor's note: This column originally appeared on the Web site "This Week in Blackness," which is maintained by Brooklyn, N.Y., comedian Elon James White. The person who submitted it to "This Week in Blackness" published it under the pseudonym "a Phantom Negro" because "Dr. Henry Louis Gates has reach and influence in the academy."
The Ivy League is not real life. College in general is not real life, and the Ivy League is a more fantastic version of college. The amenities are better, the rules are flexible, and everyone, student and faculty alike, is well aware that the realities of life as most people know it are merely a peculiar footnote to the day-to-day of campus life. I do not speak out of turn when I say this. I know because I am in and of that world.
As a black Ivy Leaguer, something funny happens as you become ensconced in ivy. You’re smart enough to understand that race and racism are a reality you deal with on a daily basis, but you also know that your university ID sets you apart. Does this mean you are kept from hurtful incidents? No, but it is to say that much of the outrage felt at a racial slight is replaced by outrage at a class slight. Sure, we get pissed, knowing we’re getting hassled because we’re black, but the real indignation comes from being hassled as members of an elite group. How dare you hassle me? I go to school here. I go to work here. That second part of the thought is always present. I go to school here. I go to work here. When the Ivy League Effect is going full tilt, our black compass gets confused; the realities we know to exist become other people's problems.
True story: One night, years ago, many of the black students at school were throwing a party in a dormitory common area when three police officers arrived, flashlights searching the crowd. Nobody moved, nobody left, nobody did anything but keep dancing as three police officers walked through the crowd, flashlights in faces. I didn’t run either. In fact, I wondered if they were chasing someone on foot and wondered if the person they were chasing had run into the party.
That could only happen in the Ivy League. Three cops come into a party and nobody, surreptitiously or otherwise, made for an exit? It seems like the beginning of a joke. On one hand, you could argue that this is a sign of progress; a sign that we’ve moved past the days of fearing police presence. I say that that quasi-luxury is brought on by the muscle backing these students (and, by extension, the faculty) -- the school. All the lessons about dealing with police as a black person seem to have no place in the ivory tower. We can forget those lessons because, more than we’re black in America, we’re Ivy Leaguers.
Which brings me to Skip Gates. He isn’t outraged because he feels he was the victim of racial profiling by the police (that dubious honor goes to his foolish neighbor) [in fact, the woman who called the police is not a neighbor, but works nearby]. He’s outraged because he was the victim of class profiling. He didn’t resent being identified as black; he resented being identified as that kind of black, the kind of black that can be hassled and pushed around by simpleton cops. How dare you hassle me? I’m Skip Gates: Harvard professor!
Skip has fallen victim to the Ivy League Effect. Check out his articles -- you can definitely go to the Root -- the Web site he is editor in chief of -- if you want to see a repository for the whole masturbatory display. He all but says, “Do I look like that type of (black) person? I was wearing a blazer and a polo shirt!” Gates is Ivy League pissed with a dash of black anger. Not the other way around. Is this to say the police weren’t in the wrong? Hardly. As a person who is familiar with the Cambridge/Boston P.D., I can say that the prospect of some procedural malfeasance on their part is entirely believable, if not an abject certainty.
But I’m also sure the good doctor was talking some shit. The Ivy League Effect, when it’s potent, wouldn’t allow otherwise. It made Gates forget that, no matter what, even when you’re right, you don’t talk shit to the police. And that’s not a matter of manhood or pride; it’s a question of survival. Why? Because you’re black before you’re a Harvard professor. Because, in an extreme case, you can’t tell your side of the story if you get shot reaching for your ID. As a black man and a Harvard professor, Gates’ thought process should have been: “Wow. I am so thoroughly pissed right now. When this current situation is resolved and I am out of harm’s way, I’m going down to the station and I’m going to use my considerable influence to make heads roll. But right now, I need to be the smart one, remember all the details and not give him any reason to escalate this situation.” That’s what many of my colleagues have done, guns drawn on them at night in the middle of campus by the police. They didn’t get loud; they got smart. They defused the situation, then got pissed and did something about it. And, I assure you, they did so with much less juice than Dr. Gates.
I remember when I heard about the story, I couldn’t help thinking: Wow, that Ivy League Effect has washed out his healthy fear of the police. Yikes.
Can he be outraged? Absolutely. The circumstance should outrage any person that happened to. But why is he outraged? Because he didn’t think the black tax applied to him anymore. In his mind, he was Skip Gates, well-regarded Harvard professor who was being treated poorly in his home by the police. Believe me, if this took place at North Carolina State his sense of indignation would be far different and his ability to garner attention would be much less. And if he was just a working-class stiff? Forget it.
But this didn’t happen anywhere else. It happened in Cambridge on Ivy turf and now his story has taken on Paul Bunyan-esque qualities. If you didn’t know better, you’d think a lynch mob was waiting outside Gates’ door with the rope and the hitching wagon before Ving Rhames came along and saved the day.
Skip Gates thought that he’d worked hard enough, achieved enough, become Harvard enough that this sort of treatment did not apply to him. And now, rather than channel that outrage in a way that is subtle but effective, he’s very publicly suffering the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, having "joined the ranks of the million incarcerated black men in America." That’s laughable. He does not see those million men as kin and he doesn’t, by and large, give a damn about those guys. He’s merely annoyed that such an irritation as police misconduct found its way into his home. If he read about this story happening to a plumber in Roxbury, he’d shake his head in disappointment and then go on with his life.
So before we heed the call of racism, let’s be mindful of the tower from which that call came. This has something to do with race. But it has a lot more to do with messing with Skip Gates.
The Ivy League Effect, people. The Ivy League Effect.
[url]The bottom line for me is that Gates may have behaved poorly, but he did not break any laws. Therefore, the choice to arrest him was based an ego-driven power trip that cops on American streets are notorious for. .
This is my thinking too.
Based on my experiences with police I can well imagine the cop banged on the door, arrogantly demanded ID, didnt clearly explain what happened, and didnt apologize for the inconvenience as in "just doing my job but.....based upon a report of a burglary in progress". Sometmes its HOW you say things that is as importnat as what you say. Surely if this cop was a diversity expert he would have known about the sensitivities that AA males (and other African looking males too) often have about encounters with cops.
It seems obvious that with his cane, his limp, his build and his age Gates isnt a threat or a profile of a burglar.
The bottom line for me is that Gates may have behaved poorly, but he did not break any laws. Therefore, the choice to arrest him was based an ego-driven power trip that cops on American streets are notorious for. I am much more concerned with the ability of armed cops to "feed the beast" and illegitimately arrest innocent people than I am of an elderly unarmed man throwing a temper tantrum in his own house.
I suspect that law enforcement units across the country are filled with the types of people who feed off of the power that comes with being a police officer, making these incidents more likely (and escalations to violence more likely as well). Why should our society call thuggery by another name because the police are the culprits? I certainly understand that cops see things day in and day out that make them jaded and jumpy, but if citizens are expected to control themselves then so should the "peace officers" that are supposed to protect them.
I agree with this. I have a brother who was a cop for four years before he quit. He told me there were generally three types of police officers. 1) Those who should have been social workers whose hearts are in the right place but quickly burn out (him). 2) Those who just like the job security who do the least amount of work possible to avoid being fired. 3) And finally those with an amoral or semi-sociopath type A personality, who thrive off the rush of using force against others. My brother calls them bullies who joined the winning team.
The first type don't last long, leaving the ranks of police dominated by the second two.
What most surprises me about this case is that Professor Gates apparently doesn't realize that this is how everyone-regardless of their racial or ethnic affiliation-is treated by the police in the US if they do not defer to their authority.
Precisely! This incident is not about race, its about Cops having 'authoritarian' issues. Gates escalated the situation for his own benefit, i.e press.
Yes, he may have been tired, but he should have shut (or slammed ) the door after the cop went outside. The cop arrested Gates because he was SHOWING HIM UP IN FRONT OF HIS COP BUDDIES - males egos...
If this had happened in Brazil for example where it is alot more common for the police to use violent force, Henry would have most likely lost a couple of tooths or worst if he would have started yelling and saying yo mama in Portuguese to a Brazilian cop.
If this had happened in Brazil for example where it is alot more common for the police to use violent force, Henry would have most likely lost a couple of tooths or worst if he would have started yelling and saying yo mama in Portuguese to a Brazilian cop.
I do not how Brazil is today, but when we all lived in Brazil (late 1960s and early 1970s), if any police officer had pissed off a personal friend of the president, he (the policeman) would have disappeared and never been seen again.
If this had happened in Brazil for example where it is alot more common for the police to use violent force, Henry would have most likely lost a couple of tooths or worst if he would have started yelling and saying yo mama in Portuguese to a Brazilian cop.
I do not how Brazil is today, but when we all lived in Brazil (late 1960s and early 1970s), if any police officer had pissed off a personal friend of the president, he (the policeman) would have disappeared and never been seen again.
The bottom line for me is that Gates may have behaved poorly, but he did not break any laws. Therefore, the choice to arrest him was based an ego-driven power trip that cops on American streets are notorious for. I am much more concerned with the ability of armed cops to "feed the beast" and illegitimately arrest innocent people than I am of an elderly unarmed man throwing a temper tantrum in his own house.
Too true. I just read a wonderful column on this by Stanley Fish, a friend and former colleague of Gates:
This question is only for those who believe that Gates should not have been arrested.
Does the fact that the Black police officer who was present during the incident strongly supports the validity of the arrest change your mind? Does the fact that the national association of Black police officers strongly objects to the president's meddling on behalf of a friend (Gates) change your mind?
This question is only for those who believe that Gates should not have been arrested.
Does the fact that the Black police officer who was present during the incident strongly supports the validity of the arrest change your mind? Does the fact that the national association of Black police officers strongly objects to the president's meddling on behalf of a friend (Gates) change your mind?
No, because I've found over the years that the thin blue line is close to impenetrable, and that officers routinely lie. As far as I can tell, this solidarity transcends racial lines.
No, because I've found over the years that the thin blue line is close to impenetrable, and that officers routinely lie. As far as I can tell, this solidarity transcends racial lines.
I hope that you are right.
I asked the question because there is presently a steadily increasing volume of messages on law-enforcement and military forums by A-A police and military expressing their dismay at the president. Their position is that anything that splits the nation into polarized "racial" camps is bad. And anything that focuses on character or abilities and ignores "racial" ancestry is good.
Police officers and military today live in professional worlds that are close to the second ideal. In their view, there are wicked people in the U.S. who make a living "racially" polarizing the nation. In their view, there are good people whose mission is to erase racialism from the nation. They are not surprised that Gates is one of the former, just like the other usual subjects whose names we all know. But those A-A military and law enforcement men and women are horrified and despairing that the president has shown himself to be of that stripe as well. They have spend their careers earning the trust and loyalty of their comrades and now they fear that the president is deliberately destroying that trust and loyalty. One said, "scratch Obama and Jim Wright pops out."
Last edited by fwsweet on Sat 25 Jul 2009 23:01; edited 1 time in total
This question is only for those who believe that Gates should not have been arrested.
Does the fact that the Black police officer who was present during the incident strongly supports the validity of the arrest change your mind? Does the fact that the national association of Black police officers strongly objects to the president's meddling on behalf of a friend (Gates) change your mind?
outside of 'race' I thought the other officer had a hispanic first & last name?
For me it wouldn't change my opinion
the LAPD one of many corrupt LEA's with a well known racist cop who was heavily involved in OJ Simpsons case a few years later were exposed of many abuses: the officers ranged from white hispanic and black:Training Day anyone?
outside of 'race' I thought the other officer had a hispanic first & last name?
There were numerous police officers present when Gates was arrested; some from the Cambridge PD, some from the Harvard U. PD. All of them agree the man should have been arrested. The specific policeman that I am referring to is Sgt. Leon Lashley. He looks African American and he self-identifies as African American.
CAMBRIDGE, Mass. (AP) — A black police officer who was at Henry Louis Gates Jr.'s home when the black Harvard scholar was arrested says he fully supports how his white fellow officer handled the situation.
Sgt. Leon Lashley says Gates was probably tired and surprised when Sgt. James Crowley demanded identification from him as officers investigated a report of a burglary. Lashley says Gates' reaction to Crowley was "a little bit stranger than it should have been."
Asked if Gates should have been arrested, Lashley said supported Crowley "100 percent." President Barack Obama says the officers "acted stupidly." Lashley called Obama's remark "unfortunate" and said he should be allowed to take it back.
May I point out something that the article's author is apparently unaware of? Gates broke into a house. He was not asked to identify himself because he was Black. He was asked to identify himself because he broke into a house.
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This incident is not about race, its about Cops having 'authoritarian' issues. Gates escalated the situation for his own benefit, i.e press.
) the door after the cop went outside. The cop arrested Gates because he was SHOWING HIM UP IN FRONT OF HIS COP BUDDIES - males egos... 
