Report again slams Dominican 'racism'...

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Report again slams Dominican 'racism'...
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caribj
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Posted: Mon 09 Nov 2009 22:06 Post subject:

CIMMERIAN wrote:

[
The bulk of illegal immigrants come via Mexico and this includes many Brazilians which may surprise some here.

CIMMERIAN I suspect that their biggest surprise might be your implication that they arrive trying to get refugee statius because the claims made by Haitians are in comparison to OTHER GROUPS claiming REFUGEE status. Not illegal immigration in general.

caribj
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Posted: Mon 09 Nov 2009 22:10 Post subject:

[quote="CIMMERIAN"][Joaquin Balaguer served under Trujillo and shared similar anti-Haitian sentiments so it would not surprise me if the book has any anti-Haitianismo. Again, I have not read this book therefore I cannot comment on it based on others opinions and hearsay.Let me remind you that "anti-Haitian" does not equal 'anti anything & everything black' or 'anti-black Dominican".

Quote:

And he served as President in a democratic Dominican Republic didnt he?.

Given that he was President for 24 out of the 36 years between 1960 and 1996 it would appear as if he was a very powerful and popular head of state?

Now why woukd Dominicans vote for a man with such polarizing views?

His opinion (as reported) was that Haiti was a Savage African nation, painting the DR in more Eurocentric Iberian terms.

Last edited by caribj on Mon 09 Nov 2009 22:28; edited 1 time in total

CIMMERIAN
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Posted: Mon 09 Nov 2009 22:14 Post subject:

caribj wrote:

The overwhelming majority of Cubans exiles, and certainly those with clout, are white. Clearly the US govt cannot formulate one policy for one group of Cubans and another for a different group. That would be too obvious.

Central Americans refugees have been given more opportunities to regularize their status, or at least to extend their stay here than Haitians.

You're overgeneralizations weaken your arguments. The first waves of Cuban immigrants were overwhelmingly of predominant European ancestry, and of the upper socioeconomic classes. These Cubans are either long dead or very old. Their sons and daughers are very Americanized and have had alot of success at assimilation.
Subsequent waves of Cuban immigrants, specifically from the Mariel and onward, have been of all ancestries. Many of these different waves with colorful names(gusanos, bomberos, los peter pan, marielitos, balseros, etc.) don't even see eye to eye on many things, very different mindset which is why it is a mistake to use a broad brush and paint and use a certain segment of Miami Cuban exiles (white Republican, racist, etc.) to stereotype all Cubans.
There are tons of black Cubans, they are not handpicked for entry into the USA. I see them all the time here in NJ.

Regarding the Central Americans, I do believe that they've been here longer and in bigger numbers than Haitians in addition to US involvement in their countries. Perhaps that plays a role. Most of these Central Americans are not 'white', not even in the more elastic LatinAmerican definition. And most them do face prejudices from everyone, including other Latinos.

caribj
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Posted: Mon 09 Nov 2009 22:15 Post subject:

CIMMERIAN wrote:

[, but Torres-Saillant is not considered the top tier in Dominican culture and history. I've read some of his flawed works. I don't need to 'paint a picture' of Dominican culture, I can prove it with indisputable facts, not some authors own personal slant.

http://maxweber.hunter.cuny.edu/pub/eres/SOC217_PIMENTEL/dominicanidentity.pdf

Comments by him. While you may not consider himself top tier unless you consider his research and the conclusions to which he came to flawed then it is worthy of some consideration.

The main point of course is he is neither African American nor from the Anglophone Caribbean. But a Dominican.

CIMMERIAN can you prove that dark skinned Dominicans with negroid features are as common within the business elites of that nation as lighter colored more caucasoid featuired Dominicans? Or is it true that thev poorest of the nation are most likely to be also the darkest. I am not arguing as to what they chose to call themselves.

fwsweet
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Posted: Mon 09 Nov 2009 22:24 Post subject:

caribj wrote:

CIMMERIAN can you prove that dark skinned Dominicans with negroid features are as common within the business elites of that nation as lighter colored more caucasoid featuired Dominicans?

Straw man. First warning.

Also, I think it is time to clarify each others' theses. You seem to be wandering. Caribj wrote, "The issue is about Domincan children BORN in the DR denied citizenship even though it appears as if your laws state that any person born their is a citizen." Is that the issue under discussion? If so, what does it have to do with intra-national colorism? If not, then what is the issue at hand?

If you cannot agree on the topic under discussion I shall lock the thread.

Last edited by fwsweet on Mon 09 Nov 2009 22:30; edited 2 times in total

caribj
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Posted: Mon 09 Nov 2009 22:26 Post subject:

CIMMERIAN wrote:

caribj wrote:

My response withdrawn in an attempt to prevent the discussion from meandering.

Last edited by caribj on Mon 09 Nov 2009 22:45; edited 1 time in total

CIMMERIAN
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Posted: Mon 09 Nov 2009 22:28 Post subject:

caribj wrote:

I find it interesting that you are unaware of complaints, not the least by Gomez himself ,that the other party (Balaguer) was using not too thinly disguised attempts to draw attention to his Haitian origins in order to deflect votes away from him.http://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/local/2009/4/19/31731/The-legacy-of-Dr-Jose-Francisco-Pena-Gomez

Unaware? I've repeatedly told you that his opponents targeted his Haitian ancestry? Please read my post carefully.

Quote:

You will note many references to racism and anti Haitianism as impacted Pena Gomez. This paper is printed in teh DR I believe, not Washington DC.

Read carefully:
(This analysis was prepared by COHA Research Associate Deanna Cox.)

G-Man
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Posted: Mon 09 Nov 2009 22:29 Post subject:

caribj wrote:

CIMMERIAN can you prove that dark skinned Dominicans with negroid features are as common within the business elites of that nation as lighter colored more caucasoid featuired Dominicans? Or is it true that thev poorest of the nation are most likely to be also the darkest. I am not arguing as to what they chose to call themselves.

I suppose he couldn't prove it, but is that any different from DR's neighbor Haiti or Jamaica? This is common throughout the Caribbean.

Quote:

Now why woukd Dominicans vote for a man with such polarizing views?

It's possible his views weren't limited to the negative ones he held about Haitians and Haiti. Perhaps Balaguer was much more than the anti-Haitian politician to his voters.

caribj
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Posted: Mon 09 Nov 2009 22:32 Post subject:

CIMMERIAN wrote:

caribj wrote:

Unaware? I've repeatedly told you that his opponents targeted his Haitian ancestry? Please read my post carefully.

Quote:

You will note many references to racism and anti Haitianism as impacted Pena Gomez. This paper is printed in teh DR I believe, not Washington DC.

Read carefully:
(This analysis was prepared by COHA Research Associate Deanna Cox.)

You will note that apparently Pena Gomez thought highly of them (based on the note at the bottom) so clearly their analysis has some merit dont you think? It represents a point of view worthy of analysis and not being totally dismissed as being inaccurate or mischevious. I would think that beiing of Haitian descent he would know something of that problem, whether it is of Haitians or Dominicans who look like him.

Last edited by caribj on Mon 09 Nov 2009 22:49; edited 1 time in total

caribj
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Posted: Mon 09 Nov 2009 22:43 Post subject:

CIMMERIAN wrote:

caribj wrote:

Unaware? I've repeatedly told you that his opponents targeted his Haitian ancestry? Please read my post carefully.

Quote:

You will note many references to racism and anti Haitianism as impacted Pena Gomez. This paper is printed in teh DR I believe, not Washington DC.

Read carefully:
(This analysis was prepared by COHA Research Associate Deanna Cox.)

Cimmerian help me. At what point does a Haitian decended person born in the DR become a Dominican? Pena was supposedly born in the DR but was stigmatized by some for being of Haitian origin. This should then lead to a discussions as to whether the sins of the parents (arriving in the DR illegallY) should permanently stain the prospects of their kids born in the DR, and apparently entitled to Dominican citizenship by virtue of being born there.

caribj
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Posted: Mon 09 Nov 2009 22:47 Post subject:

G-Man wrote:

caribj wrote:

I suppose he couldn't prove it, but is that any different from DR's neighbor Haiti or Jamaica? This is common throughout the Caribbean.

.

Can respond but will not in an attempt to prevent the discussion from losing its core focus.

CIMMERIAN
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Posted: Mon 09 Nov 2009 22:47 Post subject:

fwsweet wrote:

caribj wrote:

CIMMERIAN can you prove that dark skinned Dominicans with negroid features are as common within the business elites of that nation as lighter colored more caucasoid featuired Dominicans?

The thread has indeed become very messy. This sums up the points that I initially wanted to bring to light:

Quote:

The two questions that I find interesting are the ones posed by Cimmerian: First, why do U.S. political activists persist in seeing the situation through the lens of U.S. racialism? Why do they fantasize that White Dominicans are denying their Black ancestry by being racists against Black Haitians? Second, why are the Dominicans consistently portrayed in being in the wrong for trying to protect their border?

I think that my posts have at least pointed out that:
1) Based on various articles, blogs, reports, etc., the situation between Haiti & DR should not be simplistically reduced to racism (Dominicans hate Haitians because they're black) or colorism (Dominicans hate Haitian because they're blacker) and the very one dimensional formula of 'anti-Haitianismo=anti anything and everything black & anti-black Dominican. I've pointed out how other 'black' countries like the Bahamas share a similar attituded towards Haitians. And even the rest of the Francophone Caribbean.

2) The severity of the problem which is only brought to light when a conflict happens and always to the detriment of the DR. Anything and everythig DR does to protect their border and enforce their laws is 'racist'.

CIMMERIAN
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Posted: Mon 09 Nov 2009 22:53 Post subject:

caribj wrote:

The main point of course is he is neither African American nor from the Anglophone Caribbean. But a Dominican.

CIMMERIAN can you prove that dark skinned Dominicans with negroid features are as common within the business elites of that nation as lighter colored more caucasoid featuired Dominicans? Or is it true that thev poorest of the nation are most likely to be also the darkest. I am not arguing as to what they chose to call themselves.

They are very visible. I will not expand on this in order not to stray further as per your strawman warning.

caribj
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Posted: Mon 09 Nov 2009 22:55 Post subject:

CIMMERIAN wrote:

[I think that my posts have at least pointed out that:
1) Based on various articles, blogs, reports, etc., the situation between Haiti & DR should not be simplistically reduced to racism (Dominicans hate Haitians because they're black) or colorism (Dominicans hate Haitian because they're blacker) and the very one dimensional formula of 'anti-Haitianismo=anti anything and everything black & anti-black Dominican. I've pointed out how other 'black' countries like the Bahamas share a similar attituded towards Haitians. And even the rest of the Francophone Caribbean.

2) The severity of the problem which is only brought to light when a conflict happens and always to the detriment of the DR. Anything and everythig DR does to protect their border and enforce their laws is 'racist'.

While Haitian migrants (and Dominicans by the way, along with Jamaicans and Guyanese) are much despised throughout the Caribbean claims have been made that Dominicans have a much more complex attitude to Haitians. Even by people like Torres-Sailant who I suspect isnt out to discredit Dominicans, but to explain their attitudes. This being beyond being a source of too many illegal migranst which threaten the stability of Dominican society and its economy. Indeed these issues extended, and you admit to this, to a major Dominican figure like Pena Gomez who clearly is NOT an illegal migrant from Haiti.

The DR does have a right to protect its borders as I have said, many times on this thread. Whats more debatable is whether people born in the DR of Haitian parentage should be deprived of Dominican citizenship as many allege.

BTW while illegals from Haiti are despised the attitudes towards Haiti from much of the rest of the Caribbean are more complex as indicated by Haiti's membership in CARICOM (they are more hesitant to seriously commit to relationships with the DR) and respect for Haiti's role has having the only successful slave revolt.

Some thing that I saw some years ago. There was a merrengue concert in Central Park as part of the Summerstage series. Because of the assaults which occurred at the Puerto Rican parade (turned out to be not by Puerto Ricans) events attracting certyain audiences were scrutinized by Central Park and there was sharp crowd control. As a result many were not allwed in though off duty police men, some with Dominican girl friends, were waved in. No comments made by the crowd until one of them, obviously Haitian, turned to the crowd and said something in creole. All hell let loose. Pure rage.

Last edited by caribj on Mon 09 Nov 2009 23:08; edited 1 time in total

caribj
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Posted: Mon 09 Nov 2009 23:02 Post subject:

CIMMERIAN wrote:

caribj wrote:

They are very visible. I will not expand on this in order not to stray further as per your strawman warning.

You can start another thread to respond if you care.

CIMMERIAN
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Posted: Mon 09 Nov 2009 23:18 Post subject:

caribj wrote:

Cimmerian help me. At what point does a Haitian decended person born in the DR become a Dominican?

If you mean obtain legal Dominican citizenship then it's the same way anyone else who enters legally and obtains citizenship via legal means as per my previous post.
If you mean the children born in DR of illegal Haitian immigrants , than the answer is no, they're not Dominican as per the laws as I understand them. These children are neither 'stateless' as many reports say because according to the Haitian constitution they are given Haitian citizenship if they or their parents haven't forfeited it by becoming citizens of another country.
If you mean seen as a 'native' Dominican, it would depend on how Dominicanized they've become (culturally). There is a negative Haitian stigma, there is no doubt about that.

caribj
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Posted: Mon 09 Nov 2009 23:45 Post subject:

CIMMERIAN wrote:

caribj wrote:

Cimmerian help me. At what point does a Haitian decended person born in the DR become a Dominican?

Claims are that if one is born in the DR one is automatically Dominican as is teh acse in the USA. If an illegal Mexican gives birth in the US the child is American and can stay in the USA. The mother as an illegal can be deported. The child can sponsor the mother once of age, subject to whatever immigration rules that are applicable at the time.

Claims are that the proof of birth in the DR is denied to children born in the DR to Haitian parents through denying birth certificates. The DR becomes stigmatized by virtue of that. as being anti Haitian. It appears as if the problem isnt that Haitians are denied citizenship by statute. But by denying Dominican born Haitian descended children their birth certificates, a defacto even if not de jure policy, then their rights to be citizens is denied as they lack proof of birth in the DR. I merely repeat claims that are made.

In any case given the huge under class of stateless citizens created by denying birth certificates it would appear to me as if unless the DR wishes a huge under class of alienated illiterates it ought to do something. They can certainly deport the parents but as the kids arent Haitian Haiti is under no obligation to accept them.

As to whether Dominicans who have no Haitian connection but are deported because they "look Haitian". You claim that this doesnt happen, but havent furnished evidence of this. Many, many others claim that it does occur. So we are left with a He say/she say dilemma but as they say where there is smoke there is fire.

There is also the other issue of Haitians working in the bateyes being kept under virtual house arrest and under semi slave conditions in times past. It was when this issue was raised that what you call an obsessive focus on the DR began. The Haitians were working in cane fields under contract and so one can argue werent there illegally at least not during the harvest. There were many reports of abuses, and accusations of semi slave conditions. Now I do not know whether this is still the issue but it appears as if it once was.

So this goes beyond Haitians swarming over the border.

caribj
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Posted: Mon 09 Nov 2009 23:47 Post subject:

CIMMERIAN wrote:

[If you mean seen as a 'native' Dominican, it would depend on how Dominicanized they've become (culturally). .

many Dominico-Haitians claim full cultural absorption and know nothing of Haiti, yet claim stigmatization and denial of what they consider to be their righst to be citizens of the Dominican Republic. These arent limited to people whose mothers popped over the border into a hospital but includes those whose families have lived in the DR for decades. Creating a multi generational class of excluded people.

CIMMERIAN
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Posted: Wed 11 Nov 2009 15:42 Post subject:

caribj wrote:

While Haitian migrants (and Dominicans by the way, along with Jamaicans and Guyanese) are much despised throughout the Caribbean

Dominicans from Dominica or DR? If from the latter, I am aware that Dominicans migrate to many different islands, but I was unaware that migrants from DR formed any significant population on those other islands aside from Puerto Rico. The USA, Puerto Rico, Spain, Venezuela, Costa Rica, Aruba & Curacao are the historical and current destinations that host any significant Domincan presence. I have never visited any other Caribbean islands aside from DR & PR, but I have never personally seen any evidence of any negative stigma attached to Domincans from those islanders. Although I have seen pretty clear evidence of said sentiments towards Haitians. Keeping in mind one of my main points, notice how when illegal Dominican immigrants get deported from said places there is no protest and claims of 'anti-Dominicanismo' or 'racism'. The Dominican government itself takes a proactive approach at trying to control any of its citizens from engaging in this activity.

CIMMERIAN
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Posted: Wed 11 Nov 2009 17:28 Post subject:

caribj wrote:

claims have been made that Dominicans have a much more complex attitude to Haitians. Even by people like Torres-Sailant who I suspect isnt out to discredit Dominicans, but to explain their attitudes. This being beyond being a source of too many illegal migranst which threaten the stability of Dominican society and its economy.

The following is a summary of relevant historical events that may shed light on how the 'complex attitudes' towards Haitians evolved.:

1801: Toussaint invades Santo Domingo.
1805: Dessalines invades Santo Domingo.
1821: De Caceres declares independence for Santo Domingo and starts the process to be incorporated into Simon Bolivars La Gran Colombia.
1822: Boyer invades the fledgling republic and occupies it. During said occupation:
a) Bankrupts the nation by imposing his own very different economic policies. Also forces Dominicans to pay for the indemnity France had forced Haiti to pay for it's independence even though it was specifically towards the inhabitants of the former French icolony of Saint Domingue.
b) Severs ties with the Catholic Church (Catholicism played an important role in Dominican culture)
c) Tried to suppress Domincan culture.
d) Lands confiscated and given to Haitian officials, Haitian soldeirs living off the land created more animosity.
1845: Pierrot invades DR and is defeated.
1849: Soulouqe invades DR and is defeated.
1855: Soulouqe again invades DR and is defeated.
1963: Dominican embassy in Haiti is invaded, Dominicans executed.

Keep in mind that each invasion resulted in the usual rape, pillaging, burning of towns of that day. Even when defeated Haitian armies would regularly do this in their retreat. leaving a very bad memory for those unfortunate towns. Please also note the absence of any Dominican invasions into Haiti. Also note that Haitians often outnumbered Dominicans approx. over 5 to 1.
Like I've previously mentioned, the Dominican 'story' as viewed by your average outsider has been very one sided and hypocritical. The amount of apologitics and historical revisionism is what annoys many of us. Everyone is very familiar with the oft used charge of 'Anti-Haitinismo' against Dominicans, but no one seems to notice the very real 'Anti-Dominicanismo' of Haiti.

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