[. I consider hypocritical that Obama issued deportation orders to 30,000 Haitians yet when DR deports a fraction of this it makes the news.
).
Oh that definitely made the news in fact more so than any happenings in te DR. In fact Obama was even accused of being as "bad as Bush and as a black man ought to know better". He apparently has delayed his deportation orders. No doubt because of the bad publicity in Florida among Haitians and their supporters.
1. CIMMERIAN if they are 3,000 Dominicans on an island with 40,000 that a lot isnt it? Doesnt matter if that represents .0000001% of Dominican migrants. It does however show that Dominicans are creating similar levels of panic as do Haitians. Especially as there seems to be high involvement in the sex trade.
1. caribj, you keep trying to somehow compare Dominican migrants in the Caribbean to DR's illegal Haitian immigration issue. And I keep reminding you that Puerto Rico, as per the very same link you provided, is the #1 Caribbean destination for Dominican migrants. Puerto Rico & DR don't share a border. Puerto Rico & DR did not have historical conflicts. Puerto Rico & DR are both LatinAmericans, etc. You can start there. And keeping to the main points, this is also one more example of the hypocritical double standards that are applied depending on who is the host country and who are the migrants. Dominicans get deported, end of story. Haitians get deported by Dominicans, then all of a sudden that is a problem, with the usual racial/racialist elements thrown in. You keep mentioning the sex trade, where there is a demand there is supply. You must ask yourself, there are prostitutes from many other Caribbean islands, including Haiti where there's a problem with that. What is it about Dominican women that creates this demand? Hmmn.
2. Some of the Dominicans felt quite singled out for abuse, in fcat they did use the word DISCRIMINATION. They reported that some Puerto Rican cops seemed eager to go beyond their call of duty and reporting Dominicans to the ICE. One can only wonder if the residency status was checked before reports were made or was looking and sounding Dominican enough.
2. In the very same link you provided, ONE lady that was interviewed said " "This," she said, "is about discrimination." This doesn't make it to the world stage, there is no international press slamming Puerto Ricans and making them look like self-hating racist. See the difference? The Dominican goverment is in agreement with Puerto Rico to enforce there migratory laws. But what does this have to do with our main point? All it does is confirm my original points. And you speak as if I'm not familiar with Puerto Rico, you can reach all you want but it is not very comparable to DR's illegal Haitian immigration issue.
3. You will note that there is a difference between a talk show host and a President. One might inflame emotions, the other enforces the law and sets policy.
You keep bringing up Balaguer because of that one book he wrote...a book neither of us has read. Feel free to post proof that Balaguer 'enforced' laws or made policies based on skin color or race which is what it seems you're implying. You will never confuse a gathering of Dominican politicians with Spainiards. The fact that Gregorio Luperon, a Dominican war hero, of Anglophone Caribbean descent held the presidency of a provisional government (after the war of restoration) between 1879-1880, and the fact that Ulises Heureaux also became president and then dictator during a time when slavery either existed on other islands or was recently abolished destroys any racist angle you may be pursuing.
This whole thread has made it quite clear that there is one sidedness, double standards and hypocrisy regarding issues with DR.
Given the widespread animosity in Guadeloupe and Martinique towards the bekes, as indicated in the recent strikes and violence I doubt that Guadeloupeans racialize their animosity towards Haitians (and people from Dominica) as you imply. Certainly Haitian music is wildly popular. and some locals must be buying the crafts that the Haitian vendors sell.
In fact the big lament in the French Antilles seems to be that bekes treat them like slaves. There seems to be a lot about slavery in their narrative. THose islands seem to be more racially polarized than average in the Caribbean and it doesnt appear as if Haitians are the biggest complaint. In fact local blacks displaced by workers arriving from continental Europe seems to anger more. So much so that Sarkozy has them on a "time out" during which they will have to decide to what extent they wish to remain part of France.
http://www4.uwm.edu/clacs/resources/pubs/pdf/brodwin91.pdf
^
Written by a professor of Anthropology:
"in 1993, Interior Minister Charles Pasqua promptly announced
the goal of ‘zero immigration.’ The ‘Pasqua laws’ (Les lois Pasqua) tightened entry requirements,
increased identity checks, and sharply restricted access to residency permits. They also authorized
deportations without judicial review on the broad grounds of threats to public order. In
Guadeloupe, these deportations involve strong-arm tactics such as arrests at night and forced
entry into private homes" "Haitians know that they run the greatest
personal danger of arrest in those zones controlled by Guadeloupeans, not white métropoles (civil
servants or professionals from France). ‘[i]It’s blacks who are arresting blacks,’ one man said
angrily as he described the immigration raid at the Pentecostal revival."[/i]
‘No, they’re the ones who make the law. They don’t respect the law, when
it comes to Haitians.
They argue that their dishonor and precarious social position are an
effect of Guadeloupeans’ ambivalence about their own identity as both Black Caribbeans and
French citizens. They claim that Guadeloupeans who stigmatize Haitians are motivated by their
fear of Haiti and envy of its cultural resources.
^
Sounds familiar?
They humiliate us. Even in a Black country, they despise us. You
know that we were the first Black country to take our
independence from France. France was afraid of us, and ever
sSerge explicitly blames the
wounded pride of France (defeated in Haiti’s war of independence, 1791-1804) for its longstanding
denigration of Haitians. He asserts that the assimilation of Guadeloupe into the French
nation-state outweighs any commonality between the Black residents of Guadeloupe and those of
Haiti10. He thus explains why migrants are humiliated by Guadeloupeans despite the two groups’
shared history (former colonial plantation societies with African-descended populations, speaking similar Creole languages, etc.). A second, even more common argument seizes on a lingering
ambivalence in Guadeloupeans’ self-identification as French. It claims that Guadeloupeans
actually envy Haitians’ cultural autonomy. Guadeloupeans, who always try to imitate the French,
are intimidated by Haitians’ cultural autonomy and their obvious national pride.
The caricature allows Haitian migrants to imagine their place in Guadeloupe
on more favorable terms. It negates the dominant clichés of Haitians as rapacious, intrusive
foreigners and substitutes an (equally essentialized) image of Haitians as more authentic and
culturally self-assured Caribbeans.
I also wonder whether some one using the name "Ibo" is indeed anti black. Maybe he ha sthat "Spanish caribbean" senss of humor.
Would you also wonder this very same thing if his name was Juan Gonzalez? Or would you then apply the 'formula' of racist/self-hate, etc. but ONLY if it's not a fellow black Caribbean islander?
US Dominicans in general are also starting to get annoyed with the way DR is portrayed:
https://www.dominicansforthetruth.org/Home_Page.html Dominicans for the Truth
In recent years the positive image of the Dominican people has been dampened by problems the country is having with immigration from neighboring Caribbean countries. Dominicans for the Truth expresses its concern regarding non-governmental organizations (NGO's) working with these migrants in the Dominican Republic. Though meaning well, many have ceased to be mere humanitarian organizations and have instead become vehicles used to increase the amount of poverty in the Dominican Republic.
Letter to US Department of State
US Department of State
Under Secretary for Democracy and Global Affairs
Bureau of Population, Refugees, and Migration
Dear Acting Assistant Secretary,
Dominicans for the Truth is an independent organization dedicated to preventing and stopping defamation against the Dominican people. As you may already be aware, there is a sizeable Dominican community here in the United States, the majority of which can be considered economic refugees, since their residency and/or birth here is the direct result of harsh economic conditions in the Dominican Republic. It has come to our attention however that despite this fact, the US State Department seems to be very active in supporting another group of immigrants in the Dominican Republic, one which the United States itself rejects on a consistent basis. Dominicans for the Truth is deeply disturbed by this fact, since in addition to imposing an unbearable burden on the Dominican Republic, the US State Department is also indirectly contributing to the defamation of the Dominican Republic and consequently the Dominican people in the world of international affairs. Dominicans for the Truth is writing to petition the US State Department to withdraw its support from non-governmental organizations (NGO's) working with these migrants in the Dominican Republic, including but not limited to, the Dominican operations of Jesuit Refugee Services, Catholic Relief Services and the Julia V. Taft fund.
Our organization is very concerned about the fact that the most powerful country in the world, which allows millions of people into its doors every year, currently has such harsh policies against this group of immigrants that comes primarily from Haiti. While we do not wish to provide a laundry list of historical events, we do wish to point out some very recent political decisions that clearly demonstrate the way the US government feels towards this group of people. First, late last year the Department of Homeland Security denied Temporary Protection Status to Haitian immigrants, even though that country was battered by four storms one right after the other. Second, per statistics published by the State Department, the US has only been providing an average of 13,000 visas per year to Haitian immigrants, a great disparity from the approximately 100,000 Haitians per year the Dominican Republic has been receiving during the past few years. Lastly, as recently as January, the US authorities immediately repatriated 242 Haitian migrants that were intercepted at sea. Ironically, the Jesuit Refugee Services organization in the Dominican Republic, which receives support from the US State Department is one of the Dominican Republic's fiercest critics when it tries to enforce its own immigration policy within its borders.
As Dominicans and Dominican-Americans concerned about the future of the Dominican Republic, who wish to continue seeing both the United States and the Dominican Republic have excellent diplomatic relations, we are forced to question why the US State Department is financing and supporting Haitian immigration in the Dominican Republic while simultaneously rejecting it here in the United States. It is for this reason that we are requesting support and funding be withdrawn from the Jesuit Refugee Services, Catholic Relief Services, and Julia V. Taft fund operations in the Dominican Republic. Dominicans for the Truth believes the aforementioned NGO's and programs are not assisting migrants any more than they are assisting in imposing an overwhelming burden on the Dominican Republic. The millions of dollars used by such organizations will be of much better use to the entire Western Hemisphere if they are redirected instead towards development programs in Haiti, where one can find the origin of this migration.
Dominicans for the Truth is writing to request the withdrawal of support for the alleged humanitarian organizations Solidaridad Fronteriza and Jesuit Refugee Services in the Dominican Republic. It is our understanding that these organizations openly support the human trafficking of Haitian migrants into the Dominican Republic, and rather than assisting are increasing the amount of poverty in a country that Catholic Relief Services acknowledges does not have much resources of its own. Dominicans for the Truth laments that Catholic Relief Services has chosen to ignore the plight of the Dominican people in their own homeland in exchange for helping foreigners. We disagree with your assessment that "Haitian immigrants face additional threats to their well-being, including racial discrimination, exploitation and deportation."
The Dominican Republic is not a racist country; the majority of its citizens are people of color. If it were a truly racist country there is no way over 1 million Haitians and their descendants (predominantly black) would be in the country in the first place. Any violent incidents registered in the country involving Haitian migrants has always begun with personal strife between two parties, they have never been attacked based solely on the color of their skin.
While there have been cases of exploitation of Haitian immigrants in the Dominican Republic, this is an issue that needs to be looked at more carefully. Given the volatile situation in their home country of Haiti, many immigrants that cross the border into the Dominican Republic often times offer their services in exchange for nothing other than food and housing, voluntarily putting themselves in the position of modern day slaves. It is imperative that Catholic Relief Services understand the root of the problem lies in the immigrants' home country, and immediately move its services to Haiti where it is needed. Supporting Haitian immigrants in the Dominican Republic has done nothing but add to the Dominican Republic's poverty, proof of which lies in the overwhelming presence of hundreds of migrants and their families begging in the streets of large Dominican cities.
Immigrants and their descendants that do not have access to citizenship are subject to deportation in the Dominican Republic, but Catholic organizations should stop the hypocritical attack of the country's immigration policies. The United States itself (Catholic Relief Services' home country) is very strict with its immigrant visa requirements, last year alone deported over 200,000 individuals, and even fines employers that knowingly hire illegal labor. In addition, Dominicans for the Truth questions why no attention is paid to other Christian countries that do not give citizenship to the children of illegal migrants in their country or outright ban birthright citizenship.
Dominicans for the Truth believes that as part of an institution already in crisis, Catholic Relief Services should refrain from working with any organization that intervenes in a country's immigration and citizenship policy. We invite you to take a closer look at recent events that took place in the Dominican Republic where the director of Solidaridad Fronteriza openly supported the illegal trafficking of hundreds of Haitian migrants (http://www.listindiario.com/app/article.aspx?id=86779), (http://www.listindiario.com.do/app/article.aspx?id=86811).
In the name of peace and social stability, it is imperative that Catholic organizations immediately stop assisting in imposing an unjust and overbearing burden on the Dominican Republic, a country which has thousands of its own people as émigrés.
These letters may give posters a hint as to why NGO's in DR are generally not seen as purely humanitarian organizations. Along with Jesuit priests.
Just look at the poster DragonHorse's original post, the site he got that picture:
"Makarios...is a faith-based organization that focuses on educational development in the Dominican Republic and Haiti. Makarios’ initial projects provide improved educational opportunities in the Haitian villages, called bateyes, on the D.R.’s north coast. In addition to working in the bateyes, Makarios helps support several existing educational programs targeting poor Dominicans in Santiago, the D.R.’s second largest city."
They sell Dominican Coffee to a US based coffe shop called 'Dominican Joes'. The reason I bring this up is because my aunt wondered why, when she became aware of them, did she only see pictures of Haitians?
This is the perception, wether accurate or not, that Dominicans are getting: NGO's in DR, using DR but to help only Haitians at DR's expense.
I also wonder whether some one using the name "Ibo" is indeed anti black. Maybe he ha sthat "Spanish caribbean" senss of humor.
Would you also wonder this very same thing if his name was Juan Gonzalez? Or would you then apply the 'formula' of racist/self-hate, etc. but ONLY if it's not a fellow black Caribbean islander?
"Ibo" is an ethnic group in Nigeria. I very much doubt that it was the name he was born with. If he is distancing himself from an ethnopolitical identity as ablack man (very powerful identity in the French Antilles) or from his African heritage doubt that he would have that name.
You need to relax. I have a perfectly Welsh name. Does that indicate anything about my ethnopolitical identity which I will not disclose as its not allowed but I suspect you know what it is?
BTW there are loads of "fellow Black Caribbean islanders" who are of Dominican descent. You can define what you mean by "black".
[
"Ibo" is an ethnic group in Nigeria. I very much doubt that it was the name he was born with. If he is distancing himself from an ethnopolitical identity as ablack man (very powerful identity in the French Antilles) or from his African heritage doubt that he would have that name.
There is no mention of him 'distancing himself' or questions about how he self identifies caribj. Read carefully:
"The organization "Friends of Haiti" had sued him, and as a result he was summoned to appear before the court for having made racist and anti-foreigner remarks against Haitian immigrants. Ibo Simon’s racist, anti-foreigner and contemptuous remarks aren't new
Quote:
You need to relax. I have a perfectly Welsh name. Does that indicate anything about my ethnopolitical identity which I will not disclose as its not allowed but I suspect you know what it is?
BTW there are loads of "fellow Black Caribbean islanders" who are of Dominican descent. You can define what you mean by "black".
Based on these remarks it seems that you missed the point. Recall one of the original points :
Quote:
The two questions that I find interesting are the ones posed by Cimmerian: First, why do U.S. political activists persist in seeing the situation through the lens of U.S. racialism? Why do they fantasize that White Dominicans are denying their Black ancestry by being racists against Black Haitians?
All thru this thread you've either implied or made statements that relate any anti-Haitian attitudes with Dominicans of Afroancestry.
And when I give you a very clear example of a black Francophone Caribbean islander, voicing his opinion that are not uncommon in his country but not to that extreme, you question how can he be 'anti-black' if he is black. Yet if this was a Hispanic, you would then throw the whole self-hate/denial/distancing yourself formula. It's quite easy to see.
[:
"The organization "Friends of Haiti" had sued him, and as a result he was summoned to appear before the court for having made racist and anti-foreigner remarks against Haitian immigrants. Ibo Simon’s racist, anti-foreigner and contemptuous remarks aren't new
Quote:
You need to relax. I have a perfectly Welsh name. Does that indicate anything about my ethnopolitical identity which I will not disclose as its not allowed but I suspect you know what it is?
BTW there are loads of "fellow Black Caribbean islanders" who are of Dominican descent. You can define what you mean by "black".
Based on these remarks it seems that you missed the point. Recall one of the original points :
Quote:
The two questions that I find interesting are the ones posed by Cimmerian: First, why do U.S. political activists persist in seeing the situation through the lens of U.S. racialism? Why do they fantasize that White Dominicans are denying their Black ancestry by being racists against Black Haitians?
All thru this thread you've either implied or made statements that relate any anti-Haitian attitudes with Dominicans of Afroancestry.
And when I give you a very clear example of a black Francophone Caribbean islander, voicing his opinion that are not uncommon in his country but not to that extreme, you question how can he be 'anti-black' if he is black. Yet if this was a Hispanic, you would then throw the whole self-hate/denial/distancing yourself formula. It's quite easy to see.
1. It is not only US "racialists" who wonder about Dominican attitudes. Even some Dominicans do. I was also unaware that the "racialsts" were demanding that "white", which I presume you mean to be white LOOKING adopt a black ethnopolitical identity. I suspect that they look at the two boys at the top, boys who might be brothers given the diversity present in mnay Caribbean families and then make the demands on the Dominican boy that he adopt a black ethnopolitical identity. While I agree with you that they have no right to transpose their ethnoracial politics on a society that works differently I wonder where you get the impression that I peddle this belief. In this thread I have deliberately stayed away from any debate as to what Dominicans should call themselves or whether they should or should not adopt a racial classification as an ethnopolitical identity.
Each society has its own rules and indeed many Angophone Caribbeans are confused as to why some one looking like Adam Clayton Powell will call himself "black" when he can, and indeed did pass for white on occassion. There are historical reasons why a man like Powell will call himself "black" in the USA, "red" or "brown" in the non Hispanic Caribbean and maybe even "white" in Latin societies.
2. Ibo made remarks considered offensive and racist by the norms of the French Antilles and was dragged to court. When Balaguer wrote a book making similar claims about Haitians was he dragged to court? You must admit that Balaguer, having been President for 24 years, was not a bit player so cannot be ignored unless you indicate to the extent to which numbers of Dominicans were offended to the point where he suffered the same fate as Ibo.
Last edited by caribj on Fri 13 Nov 2009 00:07; edited 1 time in total
3. You will note that there is a difference between a talk show host and a President. One might inflame emotions, the other enforces the law and sets policy.
You keep bringing up Balaguer because of that one book he wrote...a book neither of us has read. Feel free to post proof that Balaguer 'enforced' laws or made policies based on skin color or race which is what it seems you're implying. You will never confuse a gathering of Dominican politicians with Spainiards. The fact that Gregorio Luperon, a Dominican war hero, of Anglophone Caribbean descent held the presidency of a provisional government (after the war of restoration) between 1879-1880, and the fact that Ulises Heureaux also became president and then dictator during a time when slavery either existed on other islands or was recently abolished destroys any racist angle you may be pursuing.
This whole thread has made it quite clear that there is one sidedness, double standards and hypocrisy regarding issues with DR.
All of this is true but Balaguer was President more recently than they were and allegedly peddled an anti Haitian, and some argue a Eurocentric agenda aimed at minimizing African influences on Dominican culture and identity. Some argue that, rather than portraying Dominican culture as one based on three root sources (African, Spanish and Taino), he focused on the Spanish colonial heritage suggesting that it represented an ideal.
In fact this may well be why the DR gets so much flack even though they are hardly the only society where abuse of illegal migrants occurs. And even though they clearly have the right to protect their borders against illegal entrants much as do other islands protect against Caribbean migrants from poorer islands, such as the Dominican Rep. And particularly with Haiti, the poorest country in the Americas, and one where the rule of law rarely obtains presenting unique difficulties posed to the closest inations, the DR and the Bahamas.
Now I would be interested in finding out, given that Balaguer dominated Dominican politiics in the 1980s and 1990s and so is a major figure in recent Dominican history, and has been accused of peddling a belief system that Haitians and others consider offensive. What do Dominicans think of this? Are descriptions of the book accurate, and if so then did people object as some in Guadeloupe objected to Ibo a MERE talk show host.? I am giving you an opportunity to tell your story.
Given that Balaguers book is virtually always cited its quite core to the belief that some have of Dominican society that you take offense to. It seems to be core to your attempt to portray as inaccurate descriptions that some have of Dominicans. Either that reviews of the book are inaccurate, or that Dominicans not only took offense to its thesis but loudly conveyed this fact.
And its not just Americans. In fact under Reagan Balaguer was quite popular among certain US interests. Its the NON US NGOs that began to raise complaints. Until they began to talk I dont even think that most African Americans were even aware that they were sizeable numbers of people who they would consider to be black in th DR.
Dominicans for the Truth is writing to request the withdrawal of support for the alleged humanitarian organizations Solidaridad Fronteriza and Jesuit Refugee Services in the Dominican Republic. It is our understanding that these organizations openly support the human trafficking of Haitian migrants into the Dominican Republic, .
Is it not also true that many Dominican employers illegally hire Haitians to work in agriculture, construction and other low skilled jobs and that many corrupt Dominican officials including army officers, are actively involved in this human trafficking for a fee? How come so mnay Haitians were allowed to enter unless there was some complicity between the employers in the DR and those who are supposed to protect the Dominican border with Haiti? It has to be hard to hide one million people in a nation of 9 million. How come so many were allowed to enter?
Last edited by caribj on Fri 13 Nov 2009 00:16; edited 1 time in total
[They argue that their dishonor and precarious social position are an
effect of Guadeloupeans’ ambivalence about their own identity as both Black Caribbeans and
French citizens. They claim that Guadeloupeans who stigmatize Haitians are motivated by their
fear of Haiti and envy of its cultural resources.
^
Sounds familiar?
They humiliate us. Even in a Black country, they despise us. You
know that we were the first Black country to take our
independence from France. France was afraid of us, and ever
sSerge explicitly blames the
wounded pride of France (defeated in Haiti’s war of independence, 1791-1804) for its longstanding
denigration of Haitians. He asserts that the assimilation of Guadeloupe into the French
nation-state outweighs any commonality between the Black residents of Guadeloupe and those of
Haiti10. He thus explains why migrants are humiliated by Guadeloupeans despite the two groups’
shared history (former colonial plantation societies with African-descended populations, speaking similar Creole languages, etc.). A second, even more common argument seizes on a lingering
ambivalence in Guadeloupeans’ self-identification as French. It claims that Guadeloupeans
actually envy Haitians’ cultural autonomy. Guadeloupeans, who always try to imitate the French,
are intimidated by Haitians’ cultural autonomy and their obvious national pride.
The caricature allows Haitian migrants to imagine their place in Guadeloupe
on more favorable terms. It negates the dominant clichés of Haitians as rapacious, intrusive
foreigners and substitutes an (equally essentialized) image of Haitians as more authentic and
culturally self-assured Caribbeans.
You said that only the DR gets blamed but here Guadeloupe and Martinique does also with the accusation that French Antilleans are packed with self hatred. And I can imagine having a more powerful punch given that both Haiti and the French Antilles were agood deal more slave based than DR ever was, and so Haitians might expect more solidaity from their French Caribbean brethren.
One thing I have often pondered about is why is that that Dominican music and dance more closely resembles that of the French caribbean than that of Cuba and PR. Haitians have their opinions as to why.
[
2. In the very same link you provided, ONE lady that was interviewed said " "This," she said, "is about discrimination." This doesn't make it to the world stage, there is no international press slamming Puerto Ricans and making them .
WE have a saying that " he who beats the drum calls the dance". PR is a US territory and the immigration laws enforced are that of the US, the nation which dominates world media.
However The Bahamas gets loads of bad press, at least within the Caribbean about how they treat their fellow AfroCaribbeans, Jamaicans and Haitians. And you have easily discovered similar accusations against French Antilleans. So why do you think that Dominicans are uniquely stigmatized?
Given what is happening in Barbados where other Caribbean people wish hurricanes and tsunamis on that tiny island in revenge for them enforcing their laws and thus deporting Caribbean migrants illegally there it hardly seems that the DR is unique. Now of course huge Dominican Rep will attract more press than tiny Barbados. Especially when it has had a President who ruled for a total of 24 years, I believe on at least 3 occasions, a man who wrote a supposedly racist book. While many Bajans can be accused of hurling xenophobic remarks at Guyanese and racist comments about IndoGuyanese I dont recall such words ever coming from the pen of a Barbadian Prime Minister.
You will also note, if you researched it, a parallel between Barbados and Guyana and the DR and Haiti where the former citizens feel it unfair to be put upon by citizens from the latter who in both instances are fleeing unstably badly governed nations, Haiti clearly more guilty of this than Guyana. And similar demonization as a result.
[, you question how can he be 'anti-black' if he is black. .
Hmmmm. I belive I said because he adopted an Afrocentric name. Do people distancing themselves from a "black" identity adapt Afrocentric names? Ibo isnt a French name. Its the name of a Nigerian ethnic group.
1. It is not only US "racialists" who wonder about Dominican attitudes. Even some Dominicans do. I was also unaware that the "racialsts" were demanding that "white", which I presume you mean to be white LOOKING adopt a black ethnopolitical identity. I suspect that they look at the two boys at the top, boys who might be brothers given the diversity present in mnay Caribbean families and then make the demands on the Dominican boy that he adopt a black ethnopolitical identity. While I agree with you that they have no right to transpose their ethnoracial politics on a society that works differently I wonder where you get the impression that I peddle this belief. In this thread I have deliberately stayed away from any debate as to what Dominicans should call themselves or whether they should or should not adopt a racial classification as an ethnopolitical identity.
1. Either there is some miscommunication or you are not reading the posts you quoted. My post was about the double standards regarding anti-Haitian discrimination. When it occurs in a Caribbean island whos people more closely resemble Haitians in phenotype, example Bahamas, there is no racial element thrown in. Yet if the same thing occurs in DR, they add the whole racist element, and due to the fact that it is a country of Afrodescendancy, an additional charge of self-hate. You yourself have implied that anti-Haitian attitudes are somehow related to Dominican Afroancestry. Your reply here makes no sense, we are not talking about Dominican self-identity.
Each society has its own rules and indeed many Angophone Caribbeans are confused as to why some one looking like Adam Clayton Powell will call himself "black" when he can, and indeed did pass for white on occassion. There are historical reasons why a man like Powell will call himself "black" in the USA, "red" or "brown" in the non Hispanic Caribbean and maybe even "white" in Latin societies.
Agreed, except that there isn't a slew of Latinos dedicating alot of time pseudopsychoanalyzing and attacking the use of onedroppism...the fact that people who would not be considered 'black' in many parts of the world, including Africa are considered so in the US. Or the fact that onedroppism is often encouraged and enforced by many Afrocentric idealogues. It is understood that it is an American cultural element.
Quote:
2. Ibo made remarks considered offensive and racist by the norms of the French Antilles and was dragged to court. When Balaguer wrote a book making similar claims about Haitians was he dragged to court? You must admit that Balaguer, having been President for 24 years, was not a bit player so cannot be ignored unless you indicate to the extent to which numbers of Dominicans were offended to the point where he suffered the same fate as Ibo.
Why try to keep changing the point of the current discussion? Where do I compare who's worse between Balaguer and Ibo? I keep calling out your double standards and you keep avoiding a reply.
I'm specifically talking about the fact that even though Ibo made anti-Haitian remarks, you 'doubted' that he is anti-black. Haitian is first and foremost a nationality, there are plenty of negative anti-Haitian attitudes from African Americans, but if this was from a non-black or mixed black group you then would automatically have no prolbem with making it a matter of racism and self-hate.
'
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