Report again slams Dominican 'racism', 'xenophobia' against Haitians
SANTO DOMINGO.- A report released today by the Washington-based Council on Hemispheric Affairs (COHA) slams Dominicans and the Dominican Government for its alleged racism and xenophobia against its population of Haitian immigrants and descendants of parents from the neighboring country, yet another criticism which will prompt quick and virulent reactions from political leaders and official spokespersons.
“Dominican leadership, reflecting the attitude of the general population, continues to see Haitians as a lesser people and they have attempted, usually in contradiction of applicable law, to thwart Haitian efforts to achieve citizenship,” states the report ‘Stateless in the Dominican Republic’.
The report also slams the national elite’s “disdainful contempt” for allegedly treating the mostly undocumented immigrants as “parasitic vagabonds.” “For the most part, the Dominican overclass expresses disdainful contempt for the Haitian immigrants, regarding them as parasitic vagabonds.”
However the report reveals the use of clichés and misconception repeated in previous barrages aimed at unveiling deeply rooted sentiments of mistrust between the peoples of the neighboring countries, by confusing two common terms in the hemisphere; mestizo, which describes a mix between European and Native Americans, instead of the correct mulatto. “Haiti turned out to be a state mostly of African slave descent and what would become the Dominican Republic was predominantly a country of mestizo blood.”
And again repeats the misnomer: “Dominican Republic remains the only country in Latin America with a large African-Latino population that has no laws that effectively challenge racial conflict between them and its scornful majority mestizo population.”
It also reveals a lack of thorough research regarding the country’s Law on the right to citizenship by the offspring of people regarded as “in transit” in a landmark ruling by the Supreme Court in 2008. “By Dominican law, any child born in the Dominican Republic, with the exception of children of ambassadors, is entitled to citizenship.”
“The government also feeds indications of xenophobia by accusing the Haitians of triggering violence in the country, making them scapegoats for crime issues on the Dominican side of the island,” concludes the report published by COHA.
DominicanToday.com - The Dominican Republic News Source in English
Dr. Jacinto Mañón #7, Piso 2, Ensanche Paraíso
Tel. (809) 412-2830 / (809) 616-2801 Fax. (809) 616-2334
The above picture is a Haitian and a Dominican.
The article said the "majority mestizo population" this is false, genetic studies of Dominica have shown this and you can look at the people. But I was told by a Puerto Rican friend that even many of the most African looking Dominicans say they are just "Indio".
Posted: Wed 02 Sep 2009 17:43 Post subject: Re: Report again slams Dominican 'racism'...
Dragon Horse wrote:
The article said the "majority mestizo population" this is false, genetic studies of Dominica have shown this and you can look at the people.
The article quotes the report, which was published by the Washington-based Council on Hemispheric Affairs (COHA). It was the report that used the term mestizo. I doubt it's commonly used by Dominicans.
The report the article is discussing is essentially slamming the Dominican governement for its attempts to control its own borders. There is a serious problem with Haitian illegal immigration. The insertion of information about anti-Haitain attitudes and colorism in the DR into the report only confuses things.
Quote:
But I was told by a Puerto Rican friend that even many of the most African looking Dominicans say they are just "Indio".
I've had conversations with a Dominican about this term "Indio", and according to her, it's a discriptor that doen't mean the user sees himself as an Amerindian. Her opinion is supported by this person:
I wont even talk about the first sentence, wtf, 35% of people in d.r are afro ams? LOL not true, but there is a couple of hundred or a few thousand of their descendants in Samana. Again its NOT about what they are considered, but what we truly consider ourselves, and no Dominican calls himself a hispanic or a latino, unless he's in the u.s As far as the term black, there is confusions, Dominicans do use the term black in a different way, very similar to how people in Cartagena Colombia use the term black. We say "Moreno" "Morena", the word "Indio" to us simply means brown/dark, just like Moreno and Morena. In other words, people who are not Dominican and see things from the outside think we are calling ourselves Indegenous, this is NOT true.
I wonder why are any Dominican/Haitian related news often so one sided, or to be more blunt so full of very basic factual errors. Irresponsible journalism at its best.
I wonder why are any Dominican/Haitian related news often so one sided, or to be more blunt so full of very basic factual errors. Irresponsible journalism at its best.
I do not think that the Council on Hemispheric Affairs is a collection of journalists. I believe that it is a political action group. This is not to say that U.S. journalists are accurate when discussing how other nations see "race" or the words that they use to denote different skin tones. It is just that I think that the above particular example is a political rant by an organization whose mission is to publish political rants, and not an example of biased journalism.
I wonder why are any Dominican/Haitian related news often so one sided, or to be more blunt so full of very basic factual errors. Irresponsible journalism at its best.
I do not think that the Council on Hemispheric Affairs is a collection of journalists. I believe that it is a political action group. This is not to say that U.S. journalists are accurate when discussing how other nations see "race" or the words that they use to denote different skin tones. It is just that I think that the above particular example is a political rant by an organization whose mission is to publish political rants, and not an example of biased journalism.
That is correct, from their site:
Founded in 1975, the Council on Hemispheric Affairs (COHA), a nonprofit, tax-exempt independent research and information organization, was established to promote the common interests of the hemisphere, raise the visibility of regional affairs and increase the importance of the inter-American relationship, as well as encourage the formulation of rational and constructive U.S. policies towards Latin America.
http://www.coha.org/about-coha/
What also calls my attention whenever the topic of Haiti & DR are mentioned is the trend to simplistically reduce every issue to being a matter of 'racism'. Dominicans suffer from 'deeply ingrained anti-Haitianismo" but Haitians do not have any '"anti-Dominicanismo' (regardless of historical facts). Any negative issue faced by Haitian migrants in DR is 'racist'.
For example, recently a Dominican who was invited by his Haitian friend visited Haiti and while there attacked by Haitians after he told them he was Dominican. They actually made sure he wasn't a UN soldier, they asked him directly. I don't see this as racist, it's an attack probably fueled by a recent incident in which illegal Haitian immigrants were surprised by a group of Domincan while they were cutting trees to make charcoal and subsequently killed.
I know I'm ranting away here but as a Dominican it gets realling tiring reading the same train of thought parroted by various 3rd parties.
If I may ask, what is your personal opinion as to why it's so one sided? I'm by no means trying to portray DR as heaven, just wonder why there aren't more balanced and factual based articles.
I wonder why are any Dominican/Haitian related news often so one sided, or to be more blunt so full of very basic factual errors. Irresponsible journalism at its best.
Would the periodic assault and murders of Haitians and people believed to be Haitian not be part of this? Only a few days/weeks ago some Haitians were gunned down on the Dominican side of the border. Having immigration authorities arrest them and send them back might have been better.
Trujillo and Balaguer (the latter in a more enlightened era so having less excuse) in their writings also have some responsibility. What of reports that Juan Pena faced prejudice from parts of the Dominican electorate because of his appearance even though he wa sborn in the Dominican Republic?
My question for you given that composition of a large part of th Dominican population is why is it so often reported that "blackness" is equated with "Haitianess"? I have been told by Dominicans that the darkest one in the family is sometimes teased by being called "Haitian".
Last edited by caribj on Fri 06 Nov 2009 02:04; edited 1 time in total
[For example, recently a Dominican who was invited by his Haitian friend visited Haiti and while there attacked by Haitians after he told them he was Dominican. They actually made sure he wasn't a UN soldier, they asked him directly. I don't see this as racist, it's an attack probably fueled by a recent incident in which illegal Haitian immigrants were surprised by a group of Domincan while they were cutting trees to make charcoal and subsequently killed.
s.
Not to excuse the behavior by the Haitians but which incidents occur most. Dominicans attacking Haitians in the DR or Dominican being attacked in Haiti because they are Dominican? It appears as if the attack by Haitians was revenge. Was the attack by Dominicans revenge?
DR has a serious problem and that is being a poor country lying next to an even poorer one which exports its problems that the DR clearly isnt responsible for nor can it be expected to resolve. How ever killing Haitians is clearly not a good response.
I wonder why are any Dominican/Haitian related news often so one sided, or to be more blunt so full of very basic factual errors. Irresponsible journalism at its best.
Would the periodic assault and murders of Haitians and people believed to be Haitian not be part of this?
The 'periodic assaults and murders' in DR between Haitians and Dominicans goes both ways. Illegal Haitian immigrants in DR face a similar fate to those in other Caribbean islands, but due to the fact that we share a very porous border that they can simply walk across we have the lions share of their migrants. Subsequently we also take the top spot light to every wrong doing (real or not). Whenever the poor people of one poor third world nation (DR) must now compete for scarce resourses with a huge influx of illegal immigrants from another even poorer country (Haiti) then tension and conflict is sure to follow.
To me, the interesting question is not who is more or less "right" or "wrong" between the inhabitants of the Dominican Republic and the illegal immigrants from Haiti. Indeed, such debate is forbidden by the site rules. The two questions that I find interesting are the ones posed by Cimmerian: First, why do U.S. political activists persist in seeing the situation through the lens of U.S. racialism? Why do they fantasize that White Dominicans are denying their Black ancestry by being racists against Black Haitians? Second, why are the Dominicans consistently portrayed in being in the wrong for trying to protect their border?
Is the answer to the first that USAmericans are so obsessed with the "race" notion that they see it everywhere? Is the answer to the second that it can be politically dangerous to attack fellow U.S. citizens who oppose illegal immigration, so they attack Dominicans with impunity instead?
Last edited by fwsweet on Fri 06 Nov 2009 17:07; edited 1 time in total
Only a few days/weeks ago some Haitians were gunned down on the Dominican side of the border. Having immigration authorities arrest them and send them back might have been better.
If you're going to comment on an incident, it's best to tell the whole story instead of your very short summary.
As many of you here may have noticed, the google map between Haiti and DR shows the stark differences in their landscapes. There is a tremendous enviromental issue in Haiti, so in addition to the usual influx of illegal immigrants many also now cross the border to chop down trees on the Dominican side to make charcoal. This goes on even in protected lands/parks and has recently made alarming headlines in DR.
The following tells the whole story and the very sad and unfortunate situation that led to the Haitians deaths. I will also reference any related news articles to give better clarity to the current situation:
http://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/poverty/2009/8/5/32821/Haitian-charcoal-makers-ravage-the-border-Dominican-Environment-chief Haitian charcoal makers ravage the border, Dominican Environment chief warns
SANTO DOMINGO.- Dominican Republic’s Environment Minister on Wednesday affirmed that Haitians are devastating the border region, for which the government’s grave environmental concern is to put a halt to illegal cutting of trees, action he attributes to the neighboring country’s citizens who make charcoal to sell.
He said the incident occurred around 9 a.m. between the villages Boca de Cachón and Los Pinos del Edén, near community La Descubierta, where witnesses saw 18 Haitians cutting numerous which trees were then piled on several furnaces to make charcoal to haul back to their country, when they were surprised by unidentified Dominicans and believed to be Park Rangers.
The official said witnesses also saw when the Dominicans fired on the 18 Haitians, killing four, as the others fled, among them a youngster who despite being injured managed to reach Jimaní and inform the authorities. The wounded Haitian, taken to the public hospital here, had told Perez that his four dead compatriots had been burned in the furnaces.
Border Security (Cesfront) agents participate in the investigation assisted by Army and Police officials, while the coroner went to the scene of the killings, a sparsely populated area used mostly for farming and to raise cattle. Its high altitudes provide a temperate climate where some Haitian families work the land and raise animals.
http://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/local/2009/10/23/33644/Dominican-choppers-retrieve-remains-of-4-Haitians-arrest-warrants-issued Dominican choppers retrieve remains of 4 Haitians, arrest warrants issued
JIMANI, Dominican Republic.- Air Force helicopters sent to the area Loma El Bejuco, site of the murder of four Haitians who were burning trees to make charcoal, retrieved the charred remains of their bodies and flown to the local hospital Friday morning to conduct autopsies.
The Prosecutor Ruddy Perez Medrano said they had been killed by a group of unidentified Dominicans, which Police last night announced it had located “the people in charge of that horrible crime.”
http://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/local/2009/10/26/33675/Just-days-after-killingsn-at-border-more-Haitians-arrested-for-chopping Just days after killingsn at border, more Haitians arrested for chopping trees
Santo Domingo. – The Environment Ministry (SEMARENA) handed over to the Immigration Agency 46 undocumented Haitians who were caught chopping down trees to plant crops in the Los Haitises National Park (northeast), just five days after the killings of at least three undocumented Haitians rocked the border town Jimaní.
To me, the interesting question is not who is more or less "right" or "wrong" between the inhabitants of the Dominican Republic and the illegal immigrants from Haiti. Indeed, such debate is forbidden by the site rules. The two questions that I find interesting are the ones posed by Cimmerian: First, why do U.S. political activists persist in seeing the situation through the lens of U.S. racialism? Why do they fantasize that White Dominicans are denying their Black ancestry by being racists against Black Haitians? Second, why are the Dominicans consistently portrayed in being in the wrong for trying to protect their border?
Beautifully said. It is refreshing to see others (non-Dominicans) capture the essence of what I and many other Dominicans consistently find very perplexing. I will expand a bit on this by giving the following examples from various commonly parroted scenarios:
-If Dominicans deport Haitians, it's fueled by racism. Not enforcing their migratory laws,etc.
-When Obama issued deportation orders for 30,000 Haitians, no thats different. When the US has their coast guard patrolling their waters and capture and deport illegal Haitian immigrants, thats different.
-When the people of the Bahamas, the Francophone Caribbean deport, discriminate, essentially the same scenario Haitians face in DR....not thats different.
-There is a negative stigma attached to Haitians all over the Caribbean, but only Dominicans are mentioned.
Regarding US style racialism, I also find it amusing that whatever steretoypes and negative stigma Dominicans attach to Haitians, these same racialist then make Haitians=every one of Sub Saharan ancestry. In other words they then throw in black Dominicans, Jamaicans, etc. into this one dimensional formula despite very real evidence to the contrary.
San Pedro the Macoris is considered the 'home base' of Cocolo culture. If I had to guess, it's Senator Williams is probably of Cocolo ancestry. No one considers him haitian or having anything to do with Haitians. Someone of pred. Sub Saharan phenotype commonly found in West Africa with an English last name is not the same or viewed as somehow 'similar' to haitians. Dominicans don't see Tito Trinidad as somehow similar to Haitians.
And then I read the fictional accounts of DR culture and history. Supposedly Trujillo killed Haitians (fact) and black Dominicans (false)
Supposedly Dominicans deport Haitians and "black Dominicans"
When I ask for a credible source it's amazing but no one seems to have one.
[quote="CIMMERIAN"][Four Haitians shot dead for burning trees in Dominican border zone
JIMANÍ, Dominican Republic.- Four Haitians who were chopping down trees were shot dead Wednesday night in a remote area of southwest Independencia province, by Dominicans who surprised them making charcoal in several furnaces, said the Prosecutor Ruddy Perez.
He said the incident occurred around 9 a.m. between the villages Boca de Cachón and Los Pinos del Edén, near community La Descubierta, where witnesses saw 18 Haitians cutting numerous which trees were then piled on several furnaces to make charcoal to haul back to their country, when they were surprised by unidentified Dominicans and believed to be Park Rangers.
The official said witnesses also saw when the Dominicans fired on the 18 Haitians, killing four, as the others fled, among them a youngster who despite being injured managed to reach Jimaní and inform the authorities. The wounded Haitian, taken to the public hospital here, had told Perez that his four dead compatriots had been burned in the furnaces.
Border Security (Cesfront) agents participate in the investigation assisted by Army and Police officials, while the coroner went to the scene of the killings, a sparsely populated area used mostly for farming and to raise cattle. Its high altitudes provide a temperate climate where some Haitian families work the land and raise animals.
http://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/local/2009/10/23/33644/Dominican-choppers-retrieve-remains-of-4-Haitians-arrest-warrants-issued Dominican choppers retrieve remains of 4 Haitians, arrest warrants issued
quote]
Cimmerian I did point out that the Dominican Republic has a problem, that of being a poor country lying next to an even poorer one. The poverty of Haiti has led to massive illegal migration that has impacted not only the DR but also The Bahamas. Neither nation is responsible for Haiti's problems (one can blame the Haitians themselves and maybe in times past the US and the French). Clearly neither are able to solve the problem.' Nor do they have any obligation to do so.
Given the above you will agree that shooting down Haitians rather than calling the authorities is not a solution. This is not the first time that there have been violent reactions from the public, or allegedly from soldiers themselves.
Denying citizenship rights to people born in the Dominican Republic is probably what sparks the "one sided" debate. It is quite possible that the "biased" opinions of the DR lie not in its treatment of Haitians (most nations deport illegals and abuse isnt unknown) but in how it treats people born in the DR, merely for the "sin" of having Haitian parents.
Clearly the deportation of illegals from poorer Caribbean nations fleeing to nations less poor isnt only limited to the DR with respect to Haiti but also in the case of Puerto Rico with respect to the DR. Also and with many smaller islands with respect to illegals from Jamaica, Haiti, The DR and Guyana.
What might be unique about the DR is it appears to be the only one which denies citizenship to a group of people born there based on the nationality of their parents. The result being that people born in the Dominican Rep, often indistinguishable from other Dominicans (French last names arent unknown among Dominicans with no Haitian connections) are sent back to Haiti, a land alien to them.
Fwsweet the issue of identity among Dominicans is much discussed especially now that many second generation Dominicans from the US are returning for visits. I know that it isnt a scholastic source and certainly not one that will test to what extent many Dominicans disagree on the issue of "blackness" but I saw some youtube conversations on this topic that might be interesting.
Why do they fantasize that White Dominicans are denying their Black ancestry by being racists against Black Haitians? Second, why are the Dominicans consistently portrayed in being in the wrong for trying to protect their border?
?
Curious. Who says that white appearing Dominicans deny their black ancestry? Apart from that is a small rabid Afrocentric group.
The comments appear to be directed towards Dominicans who differ only minimally in phenotype from people who would be classified as black in the non Hispanic Caribbean. Hence the references to hair texture, skin color, etc.
[-If Dominicans deport Haitians, it's fueled by racism. Not enforcing their migratory laws,etc.
-When Obama issued deportation orders for 30,000 Haitians, no thats different. When the US has their coast guard patrolling their waters and capture and deport illegal Haitian immigrants, thats different.
-When the people of the Bahamas, the Francophone Caribbean deport, discriminate, essentially the same scenario Haitians face in DR....not thats different.
-There is a negative stigma attached to Haitians all over the Caribbean, but only Dominicans are mentioned.
e.
Cimmerian can you cite any Caribbean country (other than the DR) where people born there of Haitian parentage are denied citizenship?
Also what is your view of that book by Balaguer La Isla al Reves? Some cite it as being quite racist, interesting considering that it was a head of state and not some minor person who wrote it.
BTW race is often cited as a reason for the differential treatment of Haitians by the US govt compared to refugees from Cuba and Central America.
What might also interest you is that there are increased levels of deportation of Guyanese living in Barbados, many of whom are of East Indian ancestry. Barbadians have been demonized for illtreating their Caribbean "brothers", and racism on their part is also cited. So this is not only a Dominican issue, though granted the large numbers of people involved and the history of statements made by Trujillo and Balaguer, it attracts the most attention.
In fact colorism is sometimes mentioned as a factor that colors (no pun intended) attitudes of Puerto Ricans to Dominicans living in that island, isnt that the case? On visits to Puerto Rico I have been considered Dominican (because they consider me to be a slightly mixed black) and can report a few irritating incidents at the airport prior to boarding a flight to return to the USA, this being a form of profiling based on appearance.
Last edited by caribj on Fri 06 Nov 2009 19:22; edited 1 time in total
Cimmerian can you cite any Caribbean country where people born there of Haitian parentage are denied citizenship?
Citizenship by birth (you are a citizen if you are born in a country, even if your parents were there illegally) stems from British tradition. Citizenship by ancestry (you are a citizen even if you were born overseas) stems from Roman tradition. (Recall that St. Paul was a Roman citizen, but St. Peter was not.) Latin nations tend to follow Roman tradition. For example, you are not a Haitian citizen merely by being born in Haiti. Former British colonies tend to follow British tradition--if you are born in England, you are English. Southeast Asian nations follow Roman tradition--you are not a Japanese citizen merely by being born in Japan.
caribj wrote:
Who says that white appearing Dominicans deny their black ancestry?
Look closely. I did not write "white-appearing Dominicans." I wrote "White Dominicans." I was not refering to phenotype, but to involuntary attribution of ethnopolitical membership due merely to their opposition to Haitians. As far as I can tell, critics see all Dominicans who oppose Haitians as thinking themselves "White." That the ethnopolitical label is independent of phenotye is characteristic of U.S. racialism. Only thus, for instance, can Jim Wright label himself "Black" even as he excoriates Whites for bequeathing him a pink skin tone.
caribj wrote:
In fact colorism is sometimes mentioned as a factor that colors (no pun intended) attitudes of Puerto Ricans to Dominicans living in that island, isnt that the case? On visits to Puerto Rico I have been considered Dominican (because they consider me to be a slightly mixed black)...
Yes, I believe that this is the case. I learned about it last weekend, when Mary Lee and I visited my mom in PR. We stayed at a hotel. On Monday morning we were making waffles in the hotel's breakfast area and Mary Lee made small-talk with another couple, asking the woman (who spoke perfect English as well as Spanish) if she was from Puerto Rico. To my amazement, the woman got all bent out of shape, asking Mary Lee if the reason she questioned her Puertorican-ness was because she was dark. Was Mary Lee accusing her of being Dominican? Apparently colorism mixed with ethnocentrism against Dominicans is becoming so prevalent in PR that some darker Puerto Ricans now walk around with hair-triggers.
Last edited by fwsweet on Fri 06 Nov 2009 19:39; edited 4 times in total
Cimmerian can you cite any Caribbean country where people born there of Haitian parentage are denied citizenship?
Citizenship by birth (you are a citizen if you are born in a country, even if your parents were there illegally) stems from British tradition. Citizenship by ancestry (you are a citizen even if you were born overseas) stems from Roman tradition. (Recall that St. Paul was a Roman citizen, but St. Peter was not.) Latin nations tend to follow Roman tradition. For example, you are not a Haitian citizen merely by being born in Haiti. Former British colonies tend to follow British tradition--if you are born in England, you are English. Southeast Asian nations follow Roman tradition--you are not a Japanese citizen merely by being born in Japan.
Correct me if I am wrong but I read some where that the DR follows what you call the British tradition except with respect to the children of Haitians.
Given the above you will agree that shooting down Haitians rather than calling the authorities is not a solution.
No where in my posts do I even suggest otherwise. Since you did mention the incident, I then referenced the actual news articles as well as related ones to give readers here a bit more background on the current and on going enviromental situation that led to that. Incidents like these are not common, if they were you'd be hearing about alot more considering the sheer amount of illegal Haitian migrants in DR. Also the sources do make it clear that the act was condemned and the perpetrators will face punishment. In those very same news articles you'll also see how the Haitians caught chopping down trees in a protected park were caught and will be deported, not shot down.
Quote:
Denying citizenship rights to people born in the Dominican Republic is probably what sparks the "one sided" debate.
"Denying" or enforcing its laws regarding citizenship? If a Haitian immigrant illegally crosses the border, as many do, and gives birth in a border hospital (as many do) their children are not Dominicans. If one is born to illegal immigrants, they are not granted automatic citizenship and this applies to all, not just Haitians.
Quote:
What might be unique about the DR is it appears to be the only one which denies citizenship to a group of people born there based on the nationality of their parents. The result being that people born in the Dominican Rep, often indistinguishable from other Dominicans (French last names arent unknown among Dominicans with no Haitian connections) are sent back to Haiti, a land alien to them.
Immigrants from other countries, including Haitians, do become citizens of DR. The law applies to all, the fact that the overwhelming amount of Haitians in DR are illegal does not mean they are so because of some Dominican law that targets only them.
Your statement regarding Dominicans being sent back to Haiti based solely on their appearance and/or French surname is just wrong. Please do give a credible source in which a Dominican is deported to Haiti because the authorities mistook him for a Haitian becasue of his appearance and/or French surname. This reminds me of an article I read where supposedly Dominican authorities round up any 'dark skinned people' and deport to Haiti. This is where the US influenced racialism comes in, they somehow try to connect Haitians with 'black Dominicans'.
Quote:
Fwsweet the issue of identity among Dominicans is much discussed especially now that many second generation Dominicans from the US are returning for visits. I know that it isnt a scholastic source and certainly not one that will test to what extent many Dominicans disagree on the issue of "blackness" but I saw some youtube conversations on this topic that might be interesting.
Dominicans self-identify along similar lines to other LatinAmericans (Brazilians, Puerto Ricans, Cubans). Youtube is like the internet, a ton of misinformation with gems here and there. Despite the ridiculous claims heard from foreigners usually of the Anglophone Afrocentric variety, Dominicans do not see themselves as Spaniards, Africans of the New World, Taino Indians, white, off white, or any of the other bizarre claims I've seen on Youtube. Again, I believe it is foreigners applying their own labels on us.
Cimmerian can you cite any Caribbean country where people born there of Haitian parentage are denied citizenship?
Citizenship by birth (you are a citizen if you are born in a country, even if your parents were there illegally) stems from British tradition. Citizenship by ancestry (you are a citizen even if you were born overseas) stems from Roman tradition. (Recall that St. Paul was a Roman citizen, but St. Peter was not.) Latin nations tend to follow Roman tradition. For example, you are not a Haitian citizen merely by being born in Haiti. Former British colonies tend to follow British tradition--if you are born in England, you are English. Southeast Asian nations follow Roman tradition--you are not a Japanese citizen merely by being born in Japan.
caribj wrote:
Who says that white appearing Dominicans deny their black ancestry?
Look closely. I did not write "white-appearing Dominicans." I wrote "White Dominicans." I was not refering to phenotype, but to involuntary attribution of ethnopolitical membership due merely to their opposition to Haitians. As far as I can tell, critics see all Dominicans who oppose Haitians as thinking themselves "White." That the ethnopolitical label is independent of phenotye is characteristic of U.S. racialism. Only thus, for instance, can Jim Wright label himself "Black" even as he excoriates Whites for bequeathing him a pink skin tone.
caribj wrote:
In fact colorism is sometimes mentioned as a factor that colors (no pun intended) attitudes of Puerto Ricans to Dominicans living in that island, isnt that the case? On visits to Puerto Rico I have been considered Dominican (because they consider me to be a slightly mixed black)...
Yes, I believe that this is the case. I learned about it last weekend, when Mary Lee and I visited my mom in PR. We stayed at a hotel. On Monday morning we were making waffles in the hotel's breakfast area and Mary Lee made small-talk with another couple, asking the woman (who spoke perfect English as well as Spanish) if she was from Puerto Rico. To my amazement, the woman got all bent out of shape, asking Mary Lee if the reason she questioned her Puertorican-ness was because she was dark. Was Mary Lee accusing her of being Dominican? Apparently colorism mixed with ethnocentrism against Dominicans is becoming so prevalent in PR that some darker Puerto Ricans now walk around with hair-triggers.
1. I used the term "white appearing" to avoid ethnopolitical labelling which generally causes problems and mis understandings on this site and elsewhere. I was under the impression atht it was the term "Indio" that created misunderstanding as in non Dominicans thinking tht it means a refusal to admit to (partial) subSaharan African ancestry and Dominicans who say that it refers to skin color and nothing else, not any attempt to ethnically define.
2. I will tell you a joke whcih happened once American Airlines overbooked one of their SJU/JFK flights. Having been stopped (as usual) to show my US passport [because with my appearance they are convinced that I must be Dominican, therefore attempting to sneak into the USA, so even though not necessary I have to carry a US passport as they think that NY state ID might be fraudulent] AA personnel had a hard time processing my very AngloSaxon name when they were looking up to see if I made the cut for the flight. They kept calling out Hispanic names to see if one matched with me (this after showing ID). Its not that she thought I was telling a lie. Its just that she figured that I had to be Dominican, i.e a slightly mixed black. If I was fully African then I would be from the US Virgin Islands, so entitled to my name.
Of course they are minimally mixed "blacks" as well as fully African looking "blacks" in Puerto Rico.
You might have heard of the joke that has been told to me by both NY area based Puerto Ricans and Dominicans that in the DR every black is a Haitian and in Puerto Rico every black is Dominican. The joke being that both (in the islands) according to the joke, want to trivialize the presence black appearing people in their countries.
Given the above you will agree that shooting down Haitians rather than calling the authorities is not a solution.
No where in my posts do I even suggest otherwise. Since you did mention the incident, I then referenced the actual news articles as well as related ones to give readers here a bit more background on the current and on going enviromental situation that led to that. Incidents like these are not common, if they were you'd be hearing about alot more considering the sheer amount of illegal Haitian migrants in DR. Also the sources do make it clear that the act was condemned and the perpetrators will face punishment. In those very same news articles you'll also see how the Haitians caught chopping down trees in a protected park were caught and will be deported, not shot down.
Quote:
Denying citizenship rights to people born in the Dominican Republic is probably what sparks the "one sided" debate.
"Denying" or enforcing its laws regarding citizenship? If a Haitian immigrant illegally crosses the border, as many do, and gives birth in a border hospital (as many do) their children are not Dominicans. If one is born to illegal immigrants, they are not granted automatic citizenship and this applies to all, not just Haitians.
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What might be unique about the DR is it appears to be the only one which denies citizenship to a group of people born there based on the nationality of their parents. The result being that people born in the Dominican Rep, often indistinguishable from other Dominicans (French last names arent unknown among Dominicans with no Haitian connections) are sent back to Haiti, a land alien to them.
Immigrants from other countries, including Haitians, do become citizens of DR. The law applies to all, the fact that the overwhelming amount of Haitians in DR are illegal does not mean they are so because of some Dominican law that targets only them.
Your statement regarding Dominicans being sent back to Haiti based solely on their appearance and/or French surname is just wrong. Please do give a credible source in which a Dominican is deported to Haiti because the authorities mistook him for a Haitian becasue of his appearance and/or French surname. This reminds me of an article I read where supposedly Dominican authorities round up any 'dark skinned people' and deport to Haiti. This is where the US influenced racialism comes in, they somehow try to connect Haitians with 'black Dominicans'.
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Fwsweet the issue of identity among Dominicans is much discussed especially now that many second generation Dominicans from the US are returning for visits. I know that it isnt a scholastic source and certainly not one that will test to what extent many Dominicans disagree on the issue of "blackness" but I saw some youtube conversations on this topic that might be interesting.
Dominicans self-identify along similar lines to other LatinAmericans (Brazilians, Puerto Ricans, Cubans). Youtube is like the internet, a ton of misinformation with gems here and there. Despite the ridiculous claims heard from foreigners usually of the Anglophone Afrocentric variety, Dominicans do not see themselves as Spaniards, Africans of the New World, Taino Indians, white, off white, or any of the other bizarre claims I've seen on Youtube. Again, I believe it is foreigners applying their own labels on us.
1. Cubans seem to more clearly attach an ethnopolitical identity "black" and in fcat have had a history of having black focused organizations aimed at improving the lot of blacks. In fact in the early 20th century there was even a political party which aimed at defending the interests of people of color (blacks and mulattos). Not under Castro, and its not that they dont want it but that is "counter revolutionary" in a society which claims to have eradicated racism. Indeed many of the young Cuban rappers talk about racism in todays Cuba.
2. I will not argue with you as to whether children born in Haiti of Haitian origin qualify as Dominican citizens. The argument by Dominico Haitian groups and others is that they do not and this jeopardizes their access to education, proper employment, etc. This incident on the border wasnt the only one mentioned and in fact a few years ago the NYT mentioned lynchings of Haitians in the Cibao region. Then of course there are the accusations of virtual peonage occurring on some sugar estates.
I dont know where "US influenced" ideas of race come in given that I doubt that this organization is US controlled given the history of antagonism between the UN and the US govts.
3. I asked you to discuss Balaguer's book on the Dominican identity, much quoted by many to cite the problem that Dominicans have with acknowledging their African roots and the supposedly race based animosity to Haitians. Do you plan to do this? Maybe other Caribbean/Latin American heads of state haveent been as explicit in recent years about ther views around race and ethnicity which is why DR gets tagged with the stigma that bothers you.
BTW I went to youtube and focused only on comments made by people of Dominican descent, those presumably born and/or raised in NY who spoke English. There was some laughter at "racial" attitudes of the older generation. Some comments about some who looked "Haitian" (I guess meaning unmixed SubSaharan African appearance as Haiti carries a braod range of phenotypes) yet became enraged if called "black". Not scientific I agree but interesting as these comments were not being made by either African Americans, Haitians or West Indians (or even Cubans) who often scratch their heads when trying to figure out Dominican attitudes to race/color.
Last edited by caribj on Fri 06 Nov 2009 23:53; edited 1 time in total
Having been stopped (as usual) to show my US passport [because with my appearance they are convinced that I must be Dominican, therefore attempting to sneak into the USA, so even though not necessary I have to carry a US passport as they think that NY state ID might be fraudulent] ...
I have similar problems in reverse. Since I look European, and go by an Anglo name, I have no problem travelling from PR to the States. But when I return to the U.S. from a foreign country, the immigration guys see from my U.S. passport that I am from PR, and suspect something because of my speech and appearance. Sometimes they ask me to "say something in Spanish." Sometimes they look me up in their database and my original name pops up. Although it is legal to have your passport issued with a name that you commonly use, rather than your original name, it convinces them that there is some skulduggery afoot. I guess anything out of the ordinary raises red flags with the authorities. My problem is trivial compared to yours, of course, because I return from foreign countries much less often than I return from PR.
caribj wrote:
In the DR every black is a Haitian and in Puerto Rico every black is Dominican.
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