Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Mon 25 Jul 2005 03:11 Post subject: Murdered because his looks
Hi,
I young brazilian was murdered by police in London a day after the second attacks. The only reason he was killed was because he looked different, like an Arab.
He was a Brazilian and that cost him his life.
O. Vega
--
Brazil demands Britain fully investigate killing of Brazilian Sun Jul 24,11:28 AM ET
LONDON (AFP) - Brazilian Foreign Minister Celso Amorim asked Britain to launch "a full investigation" into the killing of an innocent Brazilian man during an anti-terrorism operation.
"We expect a full investigation," Amorim told BBC radio, adding his government was "shocked and perplexed" by the fatal shooting Friday of 27-year-old electrician Jean Charles de Menezes.
"The investigation should be thorough and I had reassurances in that respect," Amorim said. "This was an innocent citizen."
"We have of course expressed in the past our total solidarity in the combat against terrorism but we understand also that in combating terrorism one should exercise the necessary caution not to take away innocent lives," he said.
Amorim met earlier Sunday in London with Lord David Triesman, a British foreign office minister, to discuss the shooting incident and was due to meet Foreign Secretary Jack Straw on Monday.
Former British foreign secretary Robin Cook, who quit Tony Blair's government in protest over the Iraq war, told BBC television the blunder dealt "a very serious blow to our relations" with Brazil, an important ally.
Straw spoke by telephone with Amorim to express his regrets and assure him that there would be an inquiry, Britain's domestic Press Association news agency said.
However, Straw said that it was essential that police were able to deal effectively with the threat of a suicide attack.
"It is obviously deeply regrettable but what we have to appreciate is the very intense pressure under which the police officers have to work," he told BBC Radio.
"We have to ensure that clear rules are operated but we also, tragically, have to ensure that the police do have effective discretion to deal with what could be terrorist suicide outrages about to take place. That's the dilemma."
Terrified subway passengers scattered in panic on Friday morning as plain-clothed police pursued Menezes, who relatives said was going to work, through Stockwell Underground station in south London.
Witnesses said the Brazilian -- described as looking "like a cornered rabbit" -- fell to the floor in a train carriage before a policeman standing directly above shot him five times in the head.
Posted: Mon 25 Jul 2005 21:34 Post subject: Re: Murdered because his looks
oevega wrote:
Hi,
I young brazilian was murdered by police in London a day after the second attacks. The only reason he was killed was because he looked different, like an Arab.
His looks combined with his wearing a thick jacket and running from the police got him killed.
His English may have been poor to non-existent, and he probably couldn't understand what the police were saying or he couldn't interpret what was happening around him.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Tue 26 Jul 2005 00:06 Post subject: Re: Murdered because his looks
G-Man wrote:
oevega wrote:
Hi,
I young brazilian was murdered by police in London a day after the second attacks. The only reason he was killed was because he looked different, like an Arab.
His looks combined with his wearing a thick jacket and running from the police got him killed.
His English may have been poor to non-existent, and he probably couldn't understand what the police were saying or he couldn't interpret what was happening around him.
Hi,
It could have been quite different the reaction if he were not a Brazilian but a member of a more feared minority.
So having his face and lacking English is enough to be kill in Britain. Isn't it?
If one has even beeing fearful of racist white mobs, it is quite easy to understand why he run, anyways. Specially when policemen weren't in uniform!
However, I just hope justice is done in this case. Is not Britain the center of humanity and of fighting for human rights? Is not Britain the cream of the cream of civilization?
I hope it continue to be so for a long time. And that they not forget human rigts of foreigners when is convenient.
Otherwise they are asking for revenge in any dark ally.
Posted: Sat 30 Jul 2005 15:36 Post subject: Re: Murdered because his looks
the man should`nt have not ran dumy
oevega wrote:
Hi,
I young brazilian was murdered by police in London a day after the second attacks. The only reason he was killed was because he looked different, like an Arab.
He was a Brazilian and that cost him his life.
O. Vega
--
Brazil demands Britain fully investigate killing of Brazilian Sun Jul 24,11:28 AM ET
LONDON (AFP) - Brazilian Foreign Minister Celso Amorim asked Britain to launch "a full investigation" into the killing of an innocent Brazilian man during an anti-terrorism operation.
"We expect a full investigation," Amorim told BBC radio, adding his government was "shocked and perplexed" by the fatal shooting Friday of 27-year-old electrician Jean Charles de Menezes.
"The investigation should be thorough and I had reassurances in that respect," Amorim said. "This was an innocent citizen."
"We have of course expressed in the past our total solidarity in the combat against terrorism but we understand also that in combating terrorism one should exercise the necessary caution not to take away innocent lives," he said.
Amorim met earlier Sunday in London with Lord David Triesman, a British foreign office minister, to discuss the shooting incident and was due to meet Foreign Secretary Jack Straw on Monday.
Former British foreign secretary Robin Cook, who quit Tony Blair's government in protest over the Iraq war, told BBC television the blunder dealt "a very serious blow to our relations" with Brazil, an important ally.
Straw spoke by telephone with Amorim to express his regrets and assure him that there would be an inquiry, Britain's domestic Press Association news agency said.
However, Straw said that it was essential that police were able to deal effectively with the threat of a suicide attack.
"It is obviously deeply regrettable but what we have to appreciate is the very intense pressure under which the police officers have to work," he told BBC Radio.
"We have to ensure that clear rules are operated but we also, tragically, have to ensure that the police do have effective discretion to deal with what could be terrorist suicide outrages about to take place. That's the dilemma."
Terrified subway passengers scattered in panic on Friday morning as plain-clothed police pursued Menezes, who relatives said was going to work, through Stockwell Underground station in south London.
Witnesses said the Brazilian -- described as looking "like a cornered rabbit" -- fell to the floor in a train carriage before a policeman standing directly above shot him five times in the head.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Sat 30 Jul 2005 17:02 Post subject: Re: Murdered because his looks
mymulatto wrote:
the man should`nt have not ran dumy
Hi,
I don't know what is funny about it to put "green smiles" in the post. Anyways, the man had an expired visa. That's why he run.
Different would be the situation if the victim would have been of another race. Of one that make riots and take revenge when someone shot one of them. He was just a Brazilian. Isn't it? Not worthly enough, I guess.
I hope this event does not mark the beginning of "hunting the immigrant session" in England. Well, knowing the brutality of English people with the Irish and "colored" round the world, what they have done it's not a surprise at all.
I just hope justice is done this time. Although I doubt it. Personally I don't like that ugly British country at all.
Posted: Fri 12 Aug 2005 16:43 Post subject: Re: Murdered because his looks
oevega wrote:
mymulatto wrote:
the man should`nt have not ran dumy
Hi,
I don't know what is funny about it to put "green smiles" in the post. Anyways, the man had an expired visa. That's why he run.
Different would be the situation if the victim would have been of another race. Of one that make riots and take revenge when someone shot one of them. He was just a Brazilian. Isn't it? Not worthly enough, I guess.
I hope this event does not mark the beginning of "hunting the immigrant session" in England. Well, knowing the brutality of English people with the Irish and "colored" round the world, what they have done it's not a surprise at all.
I just hope justice is done this time. Although I doubt it. Personally I don't like that ugly British country at all.
Regards,
Omar Vega
how the police going to no what visa he had he ran from them
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Sat 13 Aug 2005 01:57 Post subject: Re: Murdered because his looks
Quote:
how the police going to no what visa he had he ran from them
Aren't they supposed to be good policemen?
Aren't they supposed to be part of a country which respect human rights?
Doesn't the BBC goes hours and hours of "poor countries'" reports about how bad lives people in the third world, so British feel how good a country is Britain? Even with so nasty peoples like Queen Elizabeth and Prince Charles?
Doesn't the developed countries always complain about the lack of professionalism of other less developed countries?
So, how come Britain is now a savage place where anyone can be killed at random?
Shoot first and ask later is good for the U.S. far west, and some guettos of today, but not for suppossed civilized Britain.
Well, they have been declining for too long, however I never imagined Britain was so low already
And I don't understand why is so funny. Because he was a Brazilian?
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Thu 18 Aug 2005 03:07 Post subject: THE GORILLAS ALWAYS LIE (BRITISH POLICE'S CRIME)
HI,
I survived a dictatorship so I know gorillas. As people know, gorillas always lie. British police did it too.
Regards,
Omar Vega
--------------
LONDON (AFP) - British police face acute embarrassment after leaked documents showed that a Brazilian killed on suspicion of being a suicide bomber was not trying to flee and was being overpowered when he was shot in the head at point-blank range.
The documents and images, which show him pausing to pick up a newspaper and using his ticket to get into the London underground railway system, contradict earlier police claims and witness statements.
The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC), which is investigating the police killing of Jean Charles de Menezes, refused on Wednesday to confirm or deny the report broadcast late Tuesday.
Police shot the electrician, 27, after he boarded a subway train on July 22, a day after four would-be bombers tried but failed to repeat the July 7 blasts that killed 56 people.
The city was in tense mood with all four suspects having escaped and police and government officials warning of the risk of further attacks.
Initial reports said de Menezes had been acting suspiciously -- wearing a bulky jacket, jumping a ticket barrier at Stockwell Underground station, south London, and sprinting onto the train.
But witness accounts and photographs leaked to ITV television showed him in a light denim jacket walking calmly into Stockwell station.
They also revealed that de Menezes -- whose death brought to light a secret police "shoot to kill" policy in dealing with suspected suicide bombers -- was being restrained by an officer before being shot eight times, including seven bullets to the head, in front of horrified commuters.
In addition, a police officer outside his flat disclosed that he had failed to videotape de Menezes when the Brazilian left because he had gone on a toilet break.
"The officers who have done this have to be sent to jail for life because it's murder and the people who gave them the order to shoot must be punished," de Menezes's cousin Alex Alvez Pereira said.
"We won't rest until we have justice, even if it takes years," he told the Evening Standard newspaper.
Home Secretary Charles Clarke, also speaking to the Evening Standard, said he was "uneasy" about any death at the hands of the police and there needed to be a full investigation.
The ITV report indicated the operation was flawed from the start as police monitored de Menezes' block of flats in south London where they believed two of the July 21 suspects were living.
The undercover officer supposed to identify anyone leaving the building admitted he had been away from his post when the Brazilian left, "relieving myself", according to the network's report.
"At this time I was not able to transmit my observations and switch on the video camera at the same time. There is therefore no video footage of this male," he was quoted as saying.
Surveillance footage at Stockwell later captured the electrician arriving at a normal walking pace, collecting a free newspaper, then slowly descending to his train on an escalator.
Contrary to witness accounts on the day, he was seen to board the train via the middle doors before pausing, looking left and right, then sitting down in either the second or third seat facing the platform.
Moments later, police burst in and apparently restrained the Brazilian before pumping seven bullets into his head and one into his shoulder. Three more bullets missed him and the casings were left on the floor.
A member of the police surveillance team was quoted as saying: "I heard shouting, which included the word 'police', and turned to face the male in the denim jacket."
"He immediately stood up and advanced towards me and the SO19 (armed) officers ... I grabbed the male in the denim jacket by wrapping both my arms around his torso, pinning his arms to his side.
"I then pushed him back on to the seat where he had been previously sitting ... I then heard a gun shot very close to my left ear and was dragged away onto the floor of the carriage."
In a statement, the IPCC said it did not know the source of the leak, and that its investigation was continuing.
"Our priority is to disclose any findings direct to the family, who will clearly be distressed that they have received information on television concerning his death," it said.
There was no comment from the Metropolitan Police.
Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1082 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Thu 18 Aug 2005 17:01 Post subject: Sad situation...
It is a terrible tragedy what has happened to this young man. The longer I live in my "civilized" country of the good old U.S.A., the more I dislike it and its close cousin, the U.K. When we act as international police and do things like shooting before finding out what is really going on, I get scared. This isn't the America I was taught to love. Perhaps I should say, "I love my country but hate and fear my government."
My two friends recently moved to southern Brazil, and have very good lives as small business owners. Another friend moved to Argentina, and is doing very well as a secretary in Buenos Aires. I've seriously considered a move down there somewhere myself (Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Uruguay), or to Europe...Austria, perhaps. I'm just not happy or comfortable here anymore.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Thu 18 Aug 2005 17:32 Post subject: Re: Sad situation...
William wrote:
I've seriously considered a move down there somewhere myself (Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Uruguay), or to Europe...Austria, perhaps. I'm just not happy or comfortable here anymore.
Hi,
It is not such a bad idea, as it may sound at first. In the Southern cone life is not bad, and there are lot of opportunities to develop business. Besides, the cost of living is lower.
We have a continious influx of "expatriates" that go to the turism industry, trekking, outdoors lifestyles, for example. Also, investors and high-tech peoples have niches in here. English is a plus in business. And even English teachers are in high demand.
Certain advantages are that there is not much immigration here, so you interact with locals directly. And also, in South America there are more space than people. And the place is HUGE. You wouldn't believe it how empty is outside big cities.
Believe it or not, with all our "underdevelop countries" problems, sometimes life is easier here. That's why I returned, anyways.
Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1082 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Thu 18 Aug 2005 17:53 Post subject: Interesting...
Hi, Señor Vega:
I believe I could do several of the things you mentioned for employment. The idea of having vast amounts of open space is truly enticing. I detest where I live now, because it is so unbelievably crowded. The urban northeast of New Jersey is horrendous.
Being able to interact with the locals is very appealling. I don't like going to areas where the only people you see are tourists. And I believe you about life being easier in "underdeveloped" countries (I hate using that term, or the term "third world" because they smack of American arrogance).
I heard that there are areas of temperate rain forest in Chile with interesting trees, like antarctic beech, monkey-pod, etc. I would love to see that.
Where did you live outside of Chile? Did you live in the U.S.? I had a Chilean neighbour with whom I had a great relationship. We both enjoyed classic and antique automobiles, and frequently went to shows together. We also went hiking together in the woods. He decided to move back to Santiago, and I have lost touch with him, unfortunately.
Posted: Thu 18 Aug 2005 18:47 Post subject: Re: Murdered because his looks
oevega wrote:
mymulatto wrote:
the man should`nt have not ran dumy
Hi,
I don't know what is funny about it to put "green smiles" in the post. Anyways, the man had an expired visa. That's why he run.
Different would be the situation if the victim would have been of another race. Of one that make riots and take revenge when someone shot one of them. He was just a Brazilian. Isn't it? Not worthly enough, I guess.
I hope this event does not mark the beginning of "hunting the immigrant session" in England. Well, knowing the brutality of English people with the Irish and "colored" round the world, what they have done it's not a surprise at all.
I just hope justice is done this time. Although I doubt it. Personally I don't like that ugly British country at all.
Regards,
Omar Vega
Despite being Brazilian, he looked like many South Asians and Arabs in Britain. Rumor had it he was wearing a beard at the time. That combined with his dress (wearing a thick black jacket during the Summer time) and behavior led police to suspect him. This was after a bombing attack by religious zealots, which were followed by even more bombings, so you can imagine how jumpy the often inept London police were.
I agree that the police could have handled the situation differently, but I seriously doubt this will lead to “immigrant hunting season” in Britain. Britain has been much more welcoming to immigrants than many other European societies. Furthermore, Britain’s policy of non-judgmental multiculturalism has allowed extreme religious nuts to flourish in her society, some of whom entered the country as refugees.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Thu 18 Aug 2005 21:43 Post subject: Re: Murdered because his looks
G-Man wrote:
Despite being Brazilian, he looked like many South Asians and Arabs in Britain. Rumor had it he was wearing a beard at the time. That combined with his dress (wearing a thick black jacket during the Summer time) and behavior led police to suspect him. This was after a bombing attack by religious zealots, which were followed by even more bombings, so you can imagine how jumpy the often inept London police were.
I agree that the police could have handled the situation differently, but I seriously doubt this will lead to “immigrant hunting season” in Britain. Britain has been much more welcoming to immigrants than many other European societies. Furthermore, Britain’s policy of non-judgmental multiculturalism has allowed extreme religious nuts to flourish in her society, some of whom entered the country as refugees.
Hi,
It was a murder. Now the truth is coming to light.
Most Brazilians look Southern European as the guy that was killed, not African. Besides, most Brazilians have certain degree of Native American ancestry as well. East Asians are also very numerous in Brazil.
So, that was his looks.
If you see the picture, I don't find him similar to an East Asian or other "exotic" identities.
What the British policemen saw? I have no idea.
However they've lied too much already.
There is no justification for their acts, now that all the truth is comming finally to light.
I only hope the criminals are sent to jail. That's what decency dictates.
Posted: Fri 19 Aug 2005 13:52 Post subject: Re: Murdered because his looks
mymulatto wrote:
oevega wrote:
mymulatto wrote:
the man should`nt have not ran dumy
Hi,
I don't know what is funny about it to put "green smiles" in the post. Anyways, the man had an expired visa. That's why he run.
Different would be the situation if the victim would have been of another race. Of one that make riots and take revenge when someone shot one of them. He was just a Brazilian. Isn't it? Not worthly enough, I guess.
I hope this event does not mark the beginning of "hunting the immigrant session" in England. Well, knowing the brutality of English people with the Irish and "colored" round the world, what they have done it's not a surprise at all.
I just hope justice is done this time. Although I doubt it. Personally I don't like that ugly British country at all.
Regards,
Omar Vega
how the police going to no what visa he had he ran from them
Like O said, it's not funny. Someone died
Yet people always run, when they have something to hide, the police don't have to know, but the persons or people assume. They act nervous...
Posted: Fri 19 Aug 2005 13:57 Post subject: Re: Sad situation...
William wrote:
It is a terrible tragedy what has happened to this young man. The longer I live in my "civilized" country of the good old U.S.A., the more I dislike it and its close cousin, the U.K. When we act as international police and do things like shooting before finding out what is really going on, I get scared. This isn't the America I was taught to love. Perhaps I should say, "I love my country but hate and fear my government."
My two friends recently moved to southern Brazil, and have very good lives as small business owners. Another friend moved to Argentina, and is doing very well as a secretary in Buenos Aires. I've seriously considered a move down there somewhere myself (Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Uruguay), or to Europe...Austria, perhaps. I'm just not happy or comfortable here anymore.
It's the world we live in, it has nothing to do with the country as much as it is humanity. Yes, keep the focus on government, love your country... I too think of cops who shot 1st and it pisses me off that to increase the police force, they get these punk cops who are so scared and don't know how to handle themselves that they shoot with no control. I girl(13) who was having a violent tantrum with her family was shot by a cop here, shot about 3 times in the stomach, because the cop felt threatened, aren't they taught to know how to disable a person? Couldn't he have shot her in the leg?
Posted: Fri 19 Aug 2005 14:07 Post subject: Re: Sad situation...
gemini072 wrote:
aren't they taught to know how to disable a person? Couldn't he have shot her in the leg?
I do not think so. I believe that police officers are trained to shoot for the target's center of mass. Trying to disable a dangerous person with a bullet, by "shooting them in the leg" is a great way to get yourself killed. A tazer is also a possible solution, except that it is even less politically correct than a bullet, for some reason.
When you come down to it, the problem is how to handle someone who might be lethally dangerous but who, in calm hindsight, looks like a harmless child. Even a seven-year old can kill with a knife or with his/her father's pistol.
Until weapons technology can devise disabling, politically correct, but nonlethal weapons for police work, I guess it will always boil down to the officer's judgment call: Was the person really dangerous?
Posted: Fri 19 Aug 2005 15:04 Post subject: Re: Sad situation...
fwsweet wrote:
gemini072 wrote:
aren't they taught to know how to disable a person? Couldn't he have shot her in the leg?
I do not think so. I believe that police officers are trained to shoot for the target's center of mass. Trying to disable a dangerous person with a bullet, by "shooting them in the leg" is a great way to get yourself killed. A tazer is also a possible solution, except that it is even less politically correct than a bullet, for some reason.
When you come down to it, the problem is how to handle someone who might be lethally dangerous but who, in calm hindsight, looks like a harmless child. Even a seven-year old can kill with a knife or with his/her father's pistol.
Until weapons technology can devise disabling, politically correct, but nonlethal weapons for police work, I guess it will always boil down to the officer's judgment call: Was the person really dangerous?
True, I know the story I was talking about, the officer thought the girl had a knife but it was a cordless phone.
Man, I would think officers would be taught how to disable someone assumed to be dangerous. Know if the person has a gun I would definately understand the difference there.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Fri 19 Aug 2005 17:25 Post subject: Re: Sad situation...
gemini072 wrote:
Until weapons technology can devise disabling, politically correct, but nonlethal weapons for police work, I guess it will always boil down to the officer's judgment call: Was the person really dangerous?
Hi,
I believe you are right in many points. Policemen are people and their work is dangerous so, sooner or later they are going to make tragic mistakes.
However, what I don't like at all is the cover up. As I said once, I lived in a dictatorship so I know the methods they use to distort the truth.
The Bristish police and the government itself should recognize the tragedy from the beginning. Instead they show their arrogancy and cover the truth with lies.
Instead they make the victim as guilty of his own death. There were a lots of lies that have proven false.
That is not right. And that's what I can't stand.
The truth should be defended in this and other cases; that's what the victim deserves. And Justice should be done.
Posted: Fri 19 Aug 2005 17:44 Post subject: Re: Sad situation...
oevega wrote:
However, what I don't like at all is the cover up. As I said once, I lived in a dictatorship so I know the methods they use to distort the truth.
I agree. I lived in Brazil during the military dictatorship of 1964-1978. My first reaction to this tragedy was that it was the result of inadequately trained police, shooting first and asking questions later.
But the attempted coverup was apparently deliberate and is apparently ongoing. The police are still flogging "refusal to obey orders" and "bulky jackets" despite the fragmentary film evidence from a distant camera that flatly contradicts these claims. Worse, the police have still not released, to their own version of Internal Affairs, the film from a nearer camera which they confiscated immediately after the killing.
I hate to say it, but it is starting to look like something is rotten in London.
'
FAQ
Search
Register
Log in
