Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1763 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Fri 10 Dec 2004 15:56 Post subject: Happy Kwanzaa!!!
In a conversation with a co-worker, she said that her kids were learning about Kwanzaa in the government indoctrination centers (aka schools). I am absolutely positive that these institutions will not divulge the truth about this bogus holiday.
I do not have a problem with people celebrating this, as long as they realize it is something that does not come from Africa, and that Africans themselves ridicule this holiday. White liberals droole over themselves to show support for this phony holiday.
What is even further absurd is that it is based on Swahili/East African culture when the overwhelming majority of people with African ancestry in the U.S. are of West African descent. I asked a gym buddy from Ghana about Kwanzaa and he laughed in my face.
I think this paragraph sums up the nonsense of what is "Kwanzaa":
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LOOK AT ANY MAP OF THE WORLD and you will see that Ghana and Kenya are on opposite sides of the continent. This brings up an obvious question about Kwanzaa: Why did Karenga use Swahili words for his fictional African feast? American blacks are primarily descended from people who came from Ghana and other parts of West Africa. Kenya and Tanzaniawhere Swahili is spokenare several thousand miles away, about as far from Ghana as Los Angeles is from New York. Yet in celebrating Kwanzaa, African-Americans are supposed to employ a vocabulary of such Swahili words as "kujichagulia" and "kuumba." This makes about as much sense as having Irish-Americans celebrate St. Patrick's Day by speaking Polish. One possible explanation is that Karenga was simply ignorant of African geography and history when he came up with Kwanzaa in 1966. That might explain why he would schedule a harvest festival near the solstice, a season when few fruits or vegetables are harvested anywhere. But a better explanation is that he simply has contempt for black people.
And this proves the phonyness of "Kwanzaa" right from the inventors mouth himself:
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"People think it's African, but it's not," he said about his holiday in an interview quoted in the Washington Post. "I came up with Kwanzaa because black people in this country wouldn't celebrate it if they knew it was American. Also, I put it around Christmas because I knew that's when a lot of bloods would be partying."
Some media operatives call "Kwanzaa" an "African American tradition". Yeah Right
Will the New York Times have the courage to bring up this blantant truth?? Will the agents of political correctness in the government indoctrination centers bring up this fact?? I guess in their opinions, and African is an African is an African, no matter where they are from and what ethnic culture they subscribe to. Me thinks that's racist, but what do I know??
Happy Kwanzaa
By Paul Mulshine
FrontPageMagazine.com | December 26, 2002
On December 24, 1971, the New York Times ran one of the first of many articles on a new holiday designed to foster unity among African Americans. The holiday, called Kwanzaa, was applauded by a certain sixteen-year-old minister who explained that the feast would perform the valuable service of "de-whitizing" Christmas. The minister was a nobody at the time but he would later go on to become perhaps the premier race-baiter of the twentieth century. His name was Al Sharpton and he would later spawn the Tawana Brawley hoax and then incite anti-Jewish tensions in a 1995 incident that ended with the arson deaths of seven people.
Great minds think alike. The inventor of the holiday was one of the few black "leaders" in America even worse than Sharpton. But there was no mention in the Times article of this man or of the fact that at that very moment he was sitting in a California prison. And there was no mention of the curious fact that this purported benefactor of the black people had founded an organization that in its short history tortured and murdered blacks in ways of which the Ku Klux Klan could only fantasize.
It was in newspaper articles like that, repeated in papers all over the country, that the tradition of Kwanzaa began. It is a tradition not out of Africa but out of Orwell. Both history and language have been bent to serve a political goal. When that New York Times article appeared, Ron Karenga's crimes were still recent events. If the reporter had bothered to do any research into the background of the Kwanzaa founder, he might have learned about Karenga's trial earlier that year on charges of torturing two women who were members of US (United Slaves), a black nationalist cult he had founded.
A May 14, 1971, article in the Los Angeles Times described the testimony of one of them: "Deborah Jones, who once was given the Swahili title of an African queen, said she and Gail Davis were whipped with an electrical cord and beaten with a karate baton after being ordered to remove their clothes. She testified that a hot soldering iron was placed in Miss Davis' mouth and placed against Miss Davis' face and that one of her own big toes was tightened in a vise. Karenga, head of US, also put detergent and running hoses in their mouths, she said."
Back then, it was relatively easy to get information on the trial. Now it's almost impossible. It took me two days' work to find articles about it. The Los Angeles Times seems to have been the only major newspaper that reported it and the stories were buried deep in the paper, which now is available only on microfilm. And the microfilm index doesn't start until 1972, so it is almost impossible to find the three small articles that cover Karenga's trial and conviction on charges of torture. That is fortunate for Karenga. The trial showed him to be not just brutal, but deranged. He and three members of his cult had tortured the women in an attempt to find some nonexistent "crystals" of poison. Karenga thought his enemies were out to get him.
And in another lucky break for Karenga, the trial transcript no longer exists. I filed a request for it with the Superior Court of Los Angeles. After a search, the court clerk could find no record of the trial. So the exact words of the black woman who had a hot soldering iron pressed against her face by the man who founded Kwanzaa are now lost to history. The only document the court clerk did find was particularly revealing, however. It was a transcript of Karenga's sentencing hearing on Sept. 17, 1971.
A key issue was whether Karenga was sane. Judge Arthur L. Alarcon read from a psychiatrist's report: "Since his admission here he has been isolated and has been exhibiting bizarre behavior, such as staring at the wall, talking to imaginary persons, claiming that he was attacked by dive-bombers and that his attorney was in the next cell. During part of the interview he would look around as if reacting to hallucination and when the examiner walked away for a moment he began a conversation with a blanket located on his bed, stating that there was someone there and implying indirectly that the 'someone' was a woman imprisoned with him for some offense. This man now presents a picture which can be considered both paranoid and schizophrenic with hallucinations and elusions, inappropriate affect, disorganization, and impaired contact with the environment."
The founder of Kwanzaa paranoid? It seems so. But as the old saying goes, just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean that someone isn't out to get you.
ACCORDING TO COURT DOCUMENTS, Karenga's real name is Ron N. Everett. In the '60s, he awarded himself the title "maulana," Swahili for "master teacher." He was born on a poultry farm in Maryland, the fourteenth child of a Baptist minister. He came to California in the late 1950s to attend Los Angeles Community College. He moved on to UCLA, where he got a Master's degree in political science and African Studies. By the mid-1960s, he had established himself as a leading "cultural nationalist." That is a term that had some meaning in the '60s, mainly as a way of distinguishing Karenga's followers from the Black Panthers, who were conventional Marxists.
Another way of distinguishing might be to think of Karenga's gang as the Crips and the Panthers as the bloods. Despite all their rhetoric about white people, they reserved their most vicious violence for each other. In 1969, the two groups squared off over the question of who would control the new Afro-American Studies Center at UCLA. According to a Los Angeles Times article, Karenga and his adherents backed one candidate, the Panthers another. Both groups took to carrying guns on campus, a situation that, remarkably, did not seem to bother the university administration. The Black Student Union, however, set up a coalition to try and bring peace between the Panthers and the group headed by the man whom the Times labeled "Ron Ndabezitha Everett-Karenga."
On Jan. 17, 1969, about 150 students gathered in a lunchroom to discuss the situation. Two Panthersadmitted to UCLA like many of the black students as part of a federal program that put high-school dropouts into the schoolapparently spent a good part of the meeting in verbal attacks against Karenga. This did not sit well with Karenga's followers, many of whom had adopted the look of their leader, pseudo-African clothing and a shaved head.
In modern gang parlance, you might say Karenga was "dissed" by John Jerome Huggins, 23, and Alprentice "Bunchy" Carter, 26. After the meeting, the two Panthers were met in the hallway by two brothers who were members of US, George P. and Larry Joseph Stiner. The Stiners pulled pistols and shot the two Panthers dead. One of the Stiners took a bullet in the shoulder, apparently from a Panther's gun.
There were other beatings and shooting in Los Angeles involving US, but by then the tradition of African nationalism had already taken holdamong whites. That tradition calls for any white person, whether a journalist, a college official, or a politician, to ignore the obvious flaws of the concept that blacks should have a separate culture. "The students here have handled themselves in an absolutely impeccable manner," UCLA chancellor Charles E. Young told the L.A. Times. "They have been concerned. They haven't argued who the director should be; they have been saying what kind of person he should be." Young made those remarks after the shooting. And the university went ahead with its Afro-American Studies Program. Karenga, meanwhile, continued to build and strengthen US, a unique group that seems to have combined the elements of a street gang with those of a California cult. The members performed assaults and robberies but they also strictly followed the rules laid down in The Quotable Karenga, a book that laid out "The Path of Blackness." "The sevenfold path of blackness is think black, talk black, act black, create black, buy black, vote black, and live black," the book states.
In retrospect, it may be fortunate that the cult fell apart over the torture charges. Left to his own devices, Karenga might have orchestrated the type of mass suicide later pioneered by the People's Temple and copied by the Heaven's Gate cult. Instead, he apparently fell into deep paranoia shortly after the killings at UCLA. He began fearing that his followers were trying to have him killed. On May 9, 1970 he initiated the torture session that led to his imprisonment. Karenga himself will not comment on that incident and the victims cannot be located, so the sole remaining account is in the brief passage from the L.A. Times describing tortures inflicted by Karenga and his fellow defendants, Louis Smith and Luz Maria Tamayo:
"The victims said they were living at Karenga's home when Karenga accused them of trying to kill him by placing 'crystals' in his food and water and in various areas of his house. When they denied it, allegedly they were beaten with an electrical cord and a hot soldering iron was put in Miss Davis' mouth and against her face. Police were told that one of Miss Jones' toes was placed in a small vise which then allegedly was tightened by one of the defendants. The following day Karenga allegedly told the women that 'Vietnamese torture is nothing compared to what I know.' Miss Tamayo reportedly put detergent in their mouths, Smith turned a water hose full force on their faces, and Karenga, holding a gun, threatened to shoot both of them."
Karenga was convicted of two counts of felonious assault and one count of false imprisonment. He was sentenced on Sept. 17, 1971, to serve one to ten years in prison. A brief account of the sentencing ran in several newspapers the following day. That was apparently the last newspaper article to mention Karenga's unfortunate habit of doing unspeakable things to black people. After that, the only coverage came from the hundreds of news accounts that depict him as the wonderful man who invented Kwanzaa.
LOOK AT ANY MAP OF THE WORLD and you will see that Ghana and Kenya are on opposite sides of the continent. This brings up an obvious question about Kwanzaa: Why did Karenga use Swahili words for his fictional African feast? American blacks are primarily descended from people who came from Ghana and other parts of West Africa. Kenya and Tanzaniawhere Swahili is spokenare several thousand miles away, about as far from Ghana as Los Angeles is from New York. Yet in celebrating Kwanzaa, African-Americans are supposed to employ a vocabulary of such Swahili words as "kujichagulia" and "kuumba." This makes about as much sense as having Irish-Americans celebrate St. Patrick's Day by speaking Polish. One possible explanation is that Karenga was simply ignorant of African geography and history when he came up with Kwanzaa in 1966. That might explain why he would schedule a harvest festival near the solstice, a season when few fruits or vegetables are harvested anywhere. But a better explanation is that he simply has contempt for black people.
That does not seem a farfetched hypothesis. Despite all his rhetoric about white racism, I could find no record that he or his followers ever raised a hand in anger against a white person. In fact, Karenga had an excellent relationship with Los Angeles Mayor Sam Yorty in the '60s and also met with then-Governor Ronald Reagan and other white politicians. But he and his gang were hell on blacks. And Karenga certainly seems to have had a low opinion of his fellow African-Americans. "People think it's African, but it's not," he said about his holiday in an interview quoted in the Washington Post. "I came up with Kwanzaa because black people in this country wouldn't celebrate it if they knew it was American. Also, I put it around Christmas because I knew that's when a lot of bloods would be partying." "Bloods" is a '60s California slang term for black people.
That Post article appeared in 1978. Like other news articles from that era, it makes no mention of Karenga's criminal past, which seems to have been forgotten the minute he got out of prison in 1975. Profiting from the absence of memory, he remade himself as Maulana Ron Karenga, went into academics, and by 1979 he was running the Black Studies Department at California State University in Long Beach.
This raises a question: Karenga had just ten years earlier proven himself capable of employing guns and bullets in his efforts to control hiring in the Black Studies Department at UCLA. So how did this ex-con, fresh out jail, get the job at Long Beach? Did he just send a résumé and wait by the phone? The officials at Long Beach State don't like that type of question. I called the university and got a spokeswoman by the name of Toni Barone. She listened to my questions and put me on hold. Christmas music was playing, a nice touch under the circumstances. She told me to fax her my questions. I sent a list of questions that included the matter of whether Karenga had employed threats to get his job. I also asked just what sort of crimes would preclude a person from serving on the faculty there in Long Beach. And whether the university takes any security measures to ensure that Karenga doesn't shoot any students. Barone faxed me back a reply stating that the university is pleased with Karenga's performance and has no record of the procedures that led to his hiring. She ignored the question about how they protect students.
Actually, there is clear evidence that Karenga has reformed. In 1975, he dropped his cultural nationalist views and converted to Marxism. For anyone else, this would have been seen as an endorsement of radicalism, but for Karenga it was considered a sign that he had moderated his outlook. The ultimate irony is that now that Karenga is a Marxist, the capitalists have taken over his holiday. The seven principles of Kwanzaa include "collective work" and "cooperative economics," but Kwanzaa is turning out to be as commercial as Christmas, generating millions in greeting-card sales alone. The purists are whining. "It's clear that a number of major corporations have started to take notice and try to profit from Kwanzaa," said a San Francisco State black studies professor named "Oba T'Shaka" in one news account. "That's not good, with money comes corruption." No, he's wrong. With money comes kitsch. The L.A. Times reported a group was planning an "African Village Faire," the pseudo-archaic spelling of "faire" nicely combining kitsch Africana with kitsch Americana.
With money also comes forgetfulness. As those warm Kwanzaa feelings are generated in a spirit of holiday cheer, those who celebrate this holiday do so in blissful ignorance of the sordid violence, paranoia, and mayhem that helped generate its birth some three decades ago in a section of America that has vanished down the memory hole.
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1763 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Fri 10 Dec 2004 18:29 Post subject:
More on Kwanzaa....
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Karenga has concocted some bits of lore, lingo, and mumbo-jumbo that are intended to make Kwanzaa look like something out of Africa instead of something from Los Angeles County, but his efforts have been feeble. If you scan The Official Kwanzaa Web Site [see note 1, below], you'll read that the origins of Kwanzaa lie in "the first harvest celebrations of Africa," which allegedly "are recorded in African history as far back as ancient Egypt and Nubia" -- but there is no explanation of why any ancient Egyptians or Nubians might have held harvest festivals around the time of the winter solstice, and there is no identification of the crops that they harvested. Karenga's formula for celebrating Kwanzaa requires the use of two ears of maize -- but maize is a New World plant, and it wasn't known at all in ancient Africa.
This is true, maize (corn) is native to Mexico, Central America. It was not brought over to the "Old World" until the Spanish came into the "New World".
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In Karenga's Kwanzaa-lingo, ears of maize are called by the Swahili name "muhindi." In fact, all the objects that Karenga has worked into Kwanzaa have names taken from Swahili, which The Official Kwanzaa Web site describes as "a Pan-African language" and "the most widely spoken African language." The labeling of Swahili as a "Pan-African" language is rubbish. Swahili -- a Bantu tongue that includes many words absorbed from Arabic, from Persian and from certain Indian languages -- is spoken by some 50 million people (i.e., about 7% of Africa's population). Most of those Swahili-speakers are concentrated in eastern Africa, in a region that includes Uganda, Kenya, Tanzania and a strip of Zaire. The language which is used most widely in Africa is Arabic; and indeed, Swahili was originally written in Arabic script [note 2].
note 2: A Roman-based alphabet has been used for writing Swahili since the mid-1800s. See the UCLA Language Materials Project's "Swahili Profile" at http://www.lmp.ucla.edu/profiles/profs04.htm on the Web.
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Kwanzaa is supposed to be celebrated from 26 December through 1 January: It competes with Christmas and Chanukah while incorporating some echoes of both, e.g., gift-giving and a ceremony built around a seven-holed candle-holder that recalls Judaism's seven-branched menorah.
I've asked Kwanzaa practioners to explain this. Some have suggested to me that the Jews stole the menorah idea from the Africans. I have asked for the evidence, but none was provided.
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Do not be carried
about with various and strange doctrines. Hebrews 13:8&9
Americathe greatest country in the worldwas founded on the concept of religious freedom. In America, you can be a Christian, Jew, Muslim, atheist or pagan, without fear of persecution. While government cannot endorse one religion over the other, individuals can.
For decades, the media have given credence to many a self-appointed black leader, no matter how outrageous. Now they're doing the same with a pagan ritual called Kwanzaa, a so-called African-American holiday.
A made-up, anti-Christian observance, Kwanzaa is celebrated by blacks who profess Christ. In our politically correct climate, even President George Bush, a believer in Christ, feels obligated to praise this ritual.
Kwanzaa was invented in 1966 by Dr. Maulana Ron Karenga, a former black militant, Marxist and convicted felon. Claiming to have the unity of black people in mind, Karenga committed most of his crimes against blacks.
Just five years after his invention, he was convicted of torturing two black women by stripping them naked, beating them with electrical cords, placing a hot iron into the mouth of one and mangling the toe of the other in a vice. During the ordeal, he forced them to drink detergent.
Observed from December 26 to January 1, this alternative to Christmas is based on a mixture of East African harvest rituals called first fruitsaccording to Karengaand 1960s radicalism, although most ancestors of black Americans were from West Africa.
Participants acknowledge their African roots and promote seven, harmless-sounding principlesunity, self-determination, collective work and responsibility, cooperative economics, purpose, creativity and faith.
While they sound commendable, the guiding principle behind Kwanzaa is based on race, not on faith in the one true living God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Paganism is a religion of nature. Those who practice it and other New Age fallacies see the divine in the createdhumans, sun, moon, stars, treesinstead of the Creator. Christians who worship created beings are acting like pagans. It's that simple.
Karenga and his followers worship the created, their African ancestors, in a libation ceremony, and believe these dead ancestors to be spiritual intercessors between humans and God. But Christians know (or should) that only Christ is the intercessor between us and God.
Attention Christians: Kwanzaa is a made-up creed cobbled together by a man hostile to the very God you claim to worship! According to Karenga, Christianity is a myth. He does not believe in the God of the Bible. He says this about Christianity: Belief in spooks who threaten us if we don't worship them and demand we turn over our destiny and daily lives must be categorized as spookism and condemned. He believes that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, the whole rationale behind Christianity, is a myth.
Over the years, Karenga has altered his pagan intentions to attract more black Christians into the fold. He now claims that Kwanzaa is a time of giving reverence to the Creator. Just what creator he refers to is unclear. Red flags should jump out at any Bible-believing Christian when someone reveres a Creator but denies the deity of Christ.
Christians must understand that Karenga intends Kwanzaa to be an alternative to Christmas so that blacks can celebrate themselves rather than the birth of Christ.
Kwanzaa is not an innocuous celebration of black history. It attempts to spiritualize that history, replacing Christ-centered theology with pagan principles. For Christians, the only principles by which to live are found in God's word, the Bible.
Pagans have argued that Christ was not born on December 25. Insignificant. While no one knows exactly when Christ was born, the fact remains that He was born. Christmas is a time for Christians to celebrate this joyous fact.
Christ became a man to save men, not to lift up one race or culture in worship. As with any man-made religion, Kwanzaa is just another attempt to make gods of men. All Christians must be discerning when faced with these false doctrines.
The Fall of Man was the direct result of our determination to become gods. The pagan ritual of Kwanzaa is merely the old Lie wearing a new disguise.
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1763 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Fri 10 Dec 2004 19:03 Post subject:
I meant to put this in the last post, but cannot edit it, it times out. Frank is aware:
Quote:
Kwanzaa is supposed to be celebrated from 26 December through 1 January: It competes with Christmas and Chanukah while incorporating some echoes of both, e.g., gift-giving and a ceremony built around a seven-holed candle-holder that recalls Judaism's seven-branched menorah.
I've asked Kwanzaa practioners to explain this. Some have suggested to me that the Jews "stole" the menorah idea from the Africans. I have asked for the evidence, but none was provided.
Dean not trying to be rude or anything, but I prey to GOD that you are not Afro-American or of Black American descent. You spend 95% of your time on this board putting down AAs. Shame on you! There are more important things in life to do than dwell on the negative all the time!
And so what if it uses Kenyan words? Newsflash: KENYA IS IN AFRICA!!!! And Jesse did coin the term "African American".
Those who are labeled "African American" are under no obligation to celebrate "Ghana culture". Nor do we consider ourselves "Ghana American".
Would anyone be stupid enough to think you had to be of German descent to put up a Christmas tree??
Lastly, who cares if "Africans" like or dislike this holiday? Kwanzaa was meant to be an Afro-American holiday and NOT an "African" one.
Do you even know the diffrence between "African" and "black American"?
Kwanzaa was meant to be an Afro-American holiday and NOT an "African" one.
Seeing criticism of Kwanzaa as an attack on African-American ethnicity may miss the point. At least, it misses all three of the points that I think significant. (1) Why has Kwanzaa become accepted? (2) Has Kwanzaa, in fact, become accepted? (3) Is there any harm in it?
1. Why has Kwanzaa become accepted?
Obviously, it has nothing to do with any of the ancestral cultures of African-Americans. But then, many Native American rituals are historically recent and invented from European preconceptions. Kwanzaa is not Christian, of course, but then neither are any of the four seasonal rituals of the European cultures.
The celebration of Earths fertility at the vernal equinox (Estrus => Easter) is pre-Christan pagan. And please do not say that Easter is not really about colored eggs and pregnant rabbits, but that it is instead really about the resurrection of the Saviour on the third day after His execution. If you do this, then we must talk about the much older Mithraism, the most popular religion among the officers and soldiers of the tenth legion (Legio X, Germanica), who crucified the Essene carpenter from Nazareth.
The nighttime celebration of the summer solstice with bonfires and fireworks is pre-Christan pagan. And please do not say that the Fourth of July is not really about fireworks and bonfires (and sacrificial victims in wicker cages set alight) but that it is really about the birth of the nation. If you do this, then we must talk about why every other European culture calls it St. Johns Eve.
The veneration of dead ancestors (skeletons and ghosts) at the autumnal equinox (All Hallows Even => Halloween) is pre-Christan pagan.
The holly and ivy and decorated trees and gift-giving at the winter solstice is pre-Christan pagan. It is the Roman Saturnalia. And please do not say that Christmas is really about a Child born in a manger while shepherds watched their flocks by night. Shepherds in the middle-east watched their flocks by night in the late spring, when they were lambing, not in the winter.
And so, although European rituals predate Christanity, they have been celebrated for many thousands of years and are still celebrated. Kwanzaa on the other hand is also non-Christian, but is newly invented. I would like to know why it has become so quickly accepted. Specifically, what makes Kwanzaa it so palatable to White liberals?
2. Has Kwanzaa, in fact, become accepted?
I happen to live with a White liberal former schoolteacher and school librarian. She complains that neither African-American teachers nor African-American parents teach their children about Kwanzaa. She complains that she personally had to take it upon herself to teach this celebration to the children. To be sure, I doubt that Mary Lee knodguch about Kwanzaa since, when I asked specifically what it was that she taught about it, she spoke at length about the Anansi stories and their importance as a tradition to be preserved as well as carrying important lessons. When I asked what Yoruba spider tales had to do with invented Swahili rituals, she implied that Kwanzaa can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean.
She may be an exception however, in her applying a politically correct Kwanzaa label to a much older folkloric west-African set of traditions. I doubt that most people with strong folkloric traditions have a need to apply modern labels to them. And so, I would like to know what evidence there is (other than girlfromthencs zealous embrace of Kwanzaa) that it really is accepted or popular or celebrated in the homes of African-Americans. Specifically, what fraction of African-American families actually celebrate Kwanzaa?
3. Is there any harm in it?
Sure, Kwanzaa was spawned in the mind of an anti-Christian, anti-American thug. But then, the Roman Saturnalia was celebrated by people who were no slouches when it came to using Christians as lion-food. This does not stop us from decorating trees, putting up wreaths, and giving presents. Incidentally, like Javier, my family did not celebrate Christmas when I was a kid. Instead, we got presents on Twelfthnight (three kings day).
As far as I can tell, the only threat that Kwanzaa poses to society is that it fosters historical ignorance (Swahili, maize, menorah). But it is not as bad in this regard than, say, Easter or Christmas (eggs, rabbits, holly, ivy). Specifically, can anyone provide data that suggests that Kwanzaa (as opposed to its inventor) harms people?
Last edited by fwsweet on Mon 13 Dec 2004 02:39; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1763 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Sat 11 Dec 2004 18:42 Post subject:
girlfromthenc wrote:
Dean not trying to be rude or anything, but I prey to GOD that you are not Afro-American or of Black American descent. You spend 95% of your time on this board putting down AAs. Shame on you! There are more important things in life to do than dwell on the negative all the time!
Yes, I am multi-racial, what does that have to do with the FACTS that I have provided??? Can you please post what you think in your opinion that I have put down blacks??? Instead of making a blanket allegation, you should have cited evidence so that I would be able to respond and perhaps clearify the point I was trying to make. What I have posted about Kwanzaa you may not like, but it is the truth. If I made comments about people who celebrate Kwanzaa, you might have a valid point, but I did not. I even went to lengths to write this:
Dean Chapman wrote:
I do not have a problem with people celebrating this, as long as they realize it is something that does not come from Africa, and that Africans themselves ridicule this holiday.
The fact of the matter is that schools and the media are promoting this as a tradition that was/is celebrated in Africa, when the truth is, it was not at all and was invented only in 1966, which may seem like ancient history to you, but I was around. The truth surrounding the creation of this holiday is NOT taught. Therein lies the problem that I have with it and the establishment. THE TRUTH IS WHAT MATTERS ALL THE TIME!!!
girlfromthenc wrote:
And so what if it uses Kenyan words? Newsflash: KENYA IS IN AFRICA!!!! And Jesse did coin the term "African American".
No they are not Kenyan words, but Swahili words. Most African descended people are of West African descent. West Africans are as culturally similar to East Africans as Irish are to Italians, or better yet Norwegians are to Italians since both Norway and Italy are on the European continent. I sincerely hope that you are able to comprehend the difference. If not then you are guilty of what many people from the African continent complain about black Americans: they think that Africa is a homogenous continent ethnically and culturally. I don't know if you missed it but the writer said it woud be like the Irish speaking Polish on St Patricks Day. And what does "Jesse did coin the term "African American" have to do with anything here? Nobody would insinuate that Europe is one conglomeration of people and culture, why would we do the same with Africa???
girlfromthenc wrote:
Those who are labeled "African American" are under no obligation to celebrate "Ghana culture". Nor do we consider ourselves "Ghana American".
You can consider youself anything you wish!!! I have Italian friends whose parents are from Italy and they say they are under no obligation to celebrate Italian culture. The point of this is that if Ron Everett wanted to really invent a holiday that celebrated African heritage, he should of at least done his homework and research. It was merely an attempt to get at "whitey". He could have used some Nigerian traditions. Even if your ancestors hailed from what is now Ghana, you most likely would not be considered "Ghanian Amercan" because Ghana did not exist until rather recently.
girlfromthenc wrote:
Would anyone be stupid enough to think you had to be of German descent to put up a Christmas tree??
No not at all. You are missing the point here. What has happened here and other parts of the world is that cultures have become interwined to some degree, particularly in the Western Hemisphere, least of which in Sub-Saharan Africa.
girlfromthenc wrote:
Lastly, who cares if "Africans" like or dislike this holiday? Kwanzaa was meant to be an Afro-American holiday and NOT an "African" one.
Really?? I thought Kwanzaa was suppossed to be a ritual that put black Americans in touch with their African heritage??? If that's the case, then wouldn't you want to make it as authentic as possible so that people from the African continent might be willing to participate?? Wouldn't that bridge the gap so to speak between Continental Africans and North American blacks?? What you are asserting is that you don't care about the division, in other words I read what you stated as, "To hell with them, were African Americans and they are Africans". So if Kwanzaa was meant to be an Afr-Amercian holiday as you say, then why did he not use English and for culture, black southern traditions. Basically without blacks, there is no American culture. So you are wrong, it was meant to emulate an African culture, hence the Swahili.
girlfromthenc wrote:
Do you even know the diffrence between "African" and "black American"?
Absolutely, there's a big difference. I think you should ask One Dropists and black separatists this question and let's see the answers you get.
Frank wrote:
As far as I can tell, the only threat that Kwanzaa poses to society is that it fosters historical ignorance (Swahili, maize, menorah). But it is not as bad in this regard than, say, Easter or Christmas (eggs, rabbits, holly, ivy). Specifically, can anyone provide data that suggests that Kwanzaa (as opposed to its inventor) harms people?
This is exactly my point. Kwanzaa is harmless and it does foster positive ideas. The problem is that it fosters historical AND cultural ignorance that is perpetuated by some in the media and the government educational establishment. I think Kwanzaas' authenticity would be more legitimate if it was promoted as an American celebration of African heritage: the Swahili (African), corn (American), menorah (Jewish), as opposed to an "African celebration" which it is not. Don't believe this, then pick up a liberal paper, or see what some schools are teaching.
Ron Karenga:
Quote:
"People think it's African, but it's not," he said about his holiday in an interview quoted in the Washington Post. "I came up with Kwanzaa because black people in this country wouldn't celebrate it if they knew it was American. Also, I put it around Christmas because I knew that's when a lot of bloods would be partying."
girlfromthenc: No where in any of these posts are any sort of put down on blacks. I did put down Karenga who deserves to be put down. I have completely demonstrated using factual evidence how Kwanzaa is a historical and cultural fraud. However, people can celebrate it if they wish because if it makes them happy and fulfilled, then by all means!!!
Last edited by DChapman on Sat 11 Dec 2004 19:12; edited 2 times in total
what does "Jesse did coin the term "African American" have to do with anything here?
Come to think of it, I believe that it was around the time of the Revolutionary War that Massachusetts ship's captain Paul Cuffee used the term to denote the ethnicity of Americans whose ancestors came from Africa.
Specifically, can anyone provide data that suggests that Kwanzaa (as opposed to its inventor) harms people?
Many of you are familiar with my website, Interracial Voice. Some of you may not know that, for a couple of years prior to putting IV online in 1995, I published a monthly print newsletter of the same name. Frank asked whether anyone could provide data showing that Kwanzaa had ever harmed anyone. I think I have one example of harm to share. I had to dig in the drawers to find the exact reference, but I found it. I incorporated the following AP story in the January 1994 print issue of IV, and I contend that Kwanzaa practitioners did harm this young man -- albeit in ways invisible to the naked eye. You be the judge, though.
*******************************************
KWANZAA: BLACK RACISM OR AFRICAN CULTURAL PRESERVATION?
By KATHARINE WEBSTER
Associated Press Writer, 28-Dec-93
BOSTON (AP) -- Discrimination or cultural preservation? That was the question after the white mother of an interracial child was asked to leave a Kwanzaa celebration.
Arthur Hardy's mother, Marie Doubleday, left the celebration at the Roxbury Boys and Girls Club on Sunday night. Several white journalists also were asked to leave.
"The spirit of Kwanzaa was ruined that night, as far as I was concerned," Hardy, 13, said Tuesday. His black father died 10 years ago.
"The black community has always felt like our extended family," Doubleday said. "We've had problems with the white community, but this is the first real problem we've had with the black community."
Sadiki Kambon, chairman of the Community Kwanzaa Committee, said the committee has a long-standing policy of asking -- not telling -- whites to leave.
"We've had a tradition of it being an all-African event for people of color. We have never told any white person they could not attend," Kambon said. "We're asking you to respect our tradition."
Political scientist Maulana Ron Karenga invented Kwanzaa in 1966 hoping to unite the black community. It is now celebrated by about 18 million people worldwide.
The seven-day holiday is based on the agricultural cycle of Africa; Kwanzaa means "first fruits" in Swahili. It celebrates seven principles: unity, self-determination, collective work and responsibility, cooperative economics, purpose, creativity and faith.
When asked how he would feel if blacks were asked to leave a white event, Kambon said he would not attend a Hanukkah celebration out of respect for Jews: "It's a family thing for them to work on their issues."
Kambon said Kwanzaa is the one time of year for blacks to discuss their own issues. "We consider this to be a family meeting time," he said.
What about Hardy's family?
"He didn't even consider me and my mom a family," Hardy said. "All my living family is white, and the only person who has explored the black side of me is my mom."
Doubleday said several black community leaders called her and her son to apologize and invite them to other Kwanzaa celebrations.
The Boys and Girls club had been unaware of the no-whites policy, said spokeswoman Kathryn Holmes Johnson. The club's director, May Bradley, told Doubleday she did not have to leave, "but at that point people were very upset and they didn't feel welcome," Johnson said.
The club will not be used for future Kwanzaa celebrations if anyone is excluded, Johnson said.
But Kambon said Bradley knew about the policy. Bradley did not return telephone calls.
Doubleday and Hardy were invited to the celebration by Johnette Johnson, a black freelance radio reporter.
"Perhaps this will make everybody think," Johnson said. "There's a lot of families who fall into this category, there's a lot of interracial families -- are they part of the black community or not?"
I do not celebrate Kwanzaa, however I do agree with the concept. I'm all for creating a uniquely Afro-American (black Amerian) tradition/culture. The only problem with this is that most AA traditions are just as Anglo as any White families'.
The only fault I find with Kwanzaa is it places too much emphasis on Africa! I and like many other Black Americans do not see myself as a 243rd generation "West African". We are collectively Black AND American!
This is why I am truly coming to despise this term African American. It is creating total confusion. I think Jesse had it figured out in his mind that he could bring Black Americans together by emphasizing the one thing everybody had in common for sure- African ancestry (and not to get close to our "African" heritage). The only problem with it is by bringing us together as "Africans in the diaspora", he's tearing apart our ethnicity/identity. Most young people my age don't want to pretend to be WASPs or Africans.
I really wish that "we" Black Americans could come up with some kind of "culture" that could preserve our "ethnicity". I could care less WHERE or WHO our customs were borrowed from, as long it wasn't SOMEONE ELSE'S-even West African. Right now I feel like we are on the verge of becoming Africans (and even Jamicians, Afro-latinos, etc) who came to America and started the civil rights movement, fought to end slavery, maintained the NAACP etc. And that is not who most of us are!
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1763 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Sun 12 Dec 2004 01:15 Post subject:
girlfromthenc wrote:
To all:
I do not celebrate Kwanzaa, however I do agree with the concept. I'm all for creating a uniquely Afro-American (black Amerian) tradition/culture. The only problem with this is that most AA traditions are just as Anglo as any White families'.
Wow, Black American culture is the among the arguably richest black culture on the planet!!! Most defintely the most well kown. From music, dance, cuisine. The thing is it's not uniquely black. It's also part European as well. It is the two meshed together which creates the culture that the world over tries to emulate, for better or worse.
girlfromthenc wrote:
The only fault I find with Kwanzaa is it places too much emphasis on Africa! I and like many other Black Americans do not see myself as a 243rd generation "West African". We are collectively Black AND American!
I agree with you here. Many are "white", "black" and American....how about just American?? You are more than likely 10th to 13th generation American.
girlfromthenc wrote:
This is why I am truly coming to despise this term African American. It is creating total confusion. I think Jesse had it figured out in his mind that he could bring Black Americans together by emphasizing the one thing everybody had in common for sure- African ancestry (and not to get close to our "African" heritage). The only problem with it is by bringing us together as "Africans in the diaspora", he's tearing apart our ethnicity/identity. Most young people my age don't want to pretend to be WASPs or Africans.
I have always depised "African Amercian". It symbolizes political correctness. I think Ward Connerly has said it the best way on why I despise that term.
girlfromthenc wrote:
I really wish that "we" Black Americans could come up with some kind of "culture" that could preserve our "ethnicity". I could care less WHERE or WHO our customs were borrowed from, as long it wasn't SOMEONE ELSE'S-even West African. Right now I feel like we are on the verge of becoming Africans (and even Jamicians, Afro-latinos, etc) who came to America and started the civil rights movement, fought to end slavery, maintained the NAACP etc. And that is not who most of us are!
Well it is already in place: blues, jazz, and rock 'n' roll (which includes soul, funk, r 'n' b). I do not include hip hop in that category even though I probably should. But I don't know what you mean in the second part. Most blacks I know do not feel African, that's because the are not, they are African descended. Most whites I know do not feel European, that's because they are not. I think blacks are more American than a lot of whites are. Blacks have a significant stake in America. Once this is realized will things start to change. But what has happened is that the Civil Rights movement was hijacked by the militants toward the end of the '60s. So now you have a complete generation of young blacks who think of themselves as victims because this is what they have been told by people they look up to. If anyone goes through life thinking they are a victim, they will eventually give up and succomb to the stereotypes. This is why I see Mexican immigrants working all over the place in pizza joints, in landscaping, and other venues when young blacks are hanging out. Al Sharpton does the cause no good. Believe me, I've known about Sharpton before he came to the national stage. I am from Wappingers Falls and remember first hand the Brawley issue and his role in it. He is a total divider and white "conservatives" are afraid to confront him on his dubious record. The reason why I mention him is because he is a strong proponent of Kwanzaa and IMO one of the leaders of the Soul Patrol.
In another generation some of these Mexican folks will have surpassed many Black Americans economically. My advice to young blacks is this: Read, study, read. Give up the thug mentality, it will get you know where but perhaps in jail, and defintely without a job. Realize that you are an American and you can make it if you put your mind to it. Speak standard English. That's the most important. Give up the reparations mindset, Mexicans and Asians will not feel that they owe anything to blacks for what happened 140 years ago. Whites do not either, so it will not happen. Focus on something tangible, something that has a possiblity of happening. I am not saying to you, girlfromthenc, that you have a thug mentality or that you support reparations. I am speaking in general terms from what I see and read.
Kwanzaa does not unite people, it divides them. It is separatist. Even amongst blacks. Those who wish not to celebrate it for any reason are sometimes villified. Most whites are afraid to say how they really feel because of intimidation and labeling. Even the media. I sit on a community board for the editorial staff for my local paper. We discuss many things local and national. I have asked the editorial staff for the paper to report the truth about Kwanzaa, BUT THEY WILL NOT DO IT!! The reason they will not do it is because the black community will perceive it being anti black. So there you have it, they perpetuate the myth so as to not offend anyone. This is the epitome of political correctness. It is said that people who tell the truth will not be very popular, this is true.
This is exactly why political correctness is dangerous.
Well it is already in place: blues, jazz, and rock 'n' roll (which includes soul, funk, r 'n' b). I do not include hip hop in that category even though I probably should. But I don't know what you mean in the second part. Most blacks I know do not feel African, that's because the are not, they are African descended. Most whites I know do not feel European, that's because they are not. I think blacks are more American than a lot of whites are. Blacks have a significant stake in America. Once this is realized will things start to change. But what has happened is that the Civil Rights movement was hijacked by the militants toward the end of the '60s. So now you have a complete generation of young blacks who think of themselves as victims because this is what they have been told by people they look up to. If anyone goes through life thinking they are a victim, they will eventually give up and succomb to the stereotypes. This is why I see Mexican immigrants working all over the place in pizza joints, in landscaping, and other venues when young blacks are hanging out. Al Sharpton does the cause no good. Believe me, I've known about Sharpton before he came to the national stage. I am from Wappingers Falls and remember first hand the Brawley issue and his role in it. He is a total divider and white "conservatives" are afraid to confront him on his dubious record. The reason why I mention him is because he is a strong proponent of Kwanzaa and IMO one of the leaders of the Soul Patrol.
In another generation some of these Mexican folks will have surpassed many Black Americans economically. My advice to young blacks is this: Read, study, read. Give up the thug mentality, it will get you know where but perhaps in jail, and defintely without a <A TITLE="Click for more information about <A TITLE="Click for more information about job" STYLE="text-decoration: none; border-bottom: medium solid green;" HREF="http://search.targetwords.com/u.search?x=5977|1||||job|AA1VDw">job" STYLE="text-decoration: none; border-bottom: medium solid green;" HREF="http://search.targetwords.com/u.search?x=5977|1||||job|AA1VDw">job. Realize that you are an American and you can make it if you put your mind to it. Speak standard English. That's the most important. Give up the reparations mindset, Mexicans and Asians will not feel that they owe anything to blacks for what happened 140 years ago. Whites do not either, so it will not happen. Focus on something tangible, something that has a possiblity of happening. I am not saying to you, girlfromthenc, that you have a thug mentality or that you support reparations. I am speaking in general terms from what I see and read.
Kwanzaa does not unite people, it divides them. It is separatist. Even amongst blacks. Those who wish not to celebrate it for any reason are sometimes villified. Most whites are afraid to say how they really feel because of intimidation and labeling. Even the media. I sit on a community board for the editorial staff for my local paper. We discuss many things local and national. I have asked the editorial staff for the paper to report the truth about Kwanzaa, BUT THEY WILL NOT DO IT!! The reason they will not do it is because the black community will perceive it being anti black. So there you have it, they perpetuate the myth so as to not offend anyone. This is the epitome of political correctness. It is said that people who tell the truth will not be very popular, this is true.
This is exactly why political correctness is dangerous.
[/quote]
I disagree with you that Kwanzaa, or any other attempt at making a unquie AA custom "divides" people! It divides people no more than Mexicans putting Mexican flags on their car instead of American ones. I personally think it helps Black Americans have a sense of self and their accomplishments. And "White Liberals" have nothing to do with it either. Appearently "White Conservatives" are doing their damnest to destroy any Afro-American tradition that they can. It is not up to "White" identitied or even non-Blacks at all to decide what is AA and what is not. That should be left up to those citizens who choose to define themselves as Afro-American.
Lastly, I've heard this arguement about everyone "passing" Black Americans. This is not true from what I have seen. Black Americans are the most sucessful minority except for Asian Americans. Asians tend to be even more sucessful than White Americans. I think "Conservatives" try to find a scapegoat and tend to dwell on the negative too much. Black Americans only got their FREEDOM/ECONMIC OPPORTUNITY about 36 years ago!!!!! 1968 was the year the Civil Rights act was passed to stop housing discrimination for AAs. Mexican, Latinos, Turks, Jews, Asians all enjoyed "a White status" before 1968. They have no excuses. Mexicans were in Georges(as he claims) White high school, when Black kids were being rocked to death by police. Mexicans have no excuse to be in the situation that they are in, other immigrants come here and are far more sucessful. My grandmother's family were sharecroppers/worked on farmers and if you know what that is I dont' need to say more. My grandmothers did not have the MONEY to send my PARENTS to school/college. Its only NOW that the grandchildren are getting a chance to go to school. And you believe "blacks" should feel sorry for immigrants???? They have had all the "White" opportunities in the world.
And one more thing: I need to piont this out because I hear this out of a lot of conservatives mouths but reparations and talk about it doesn't hurt black Americans what hurts them is lack of econmic establishment. Its almost laughable that Japanese Americans sued and won reparations when they enjoyed more freedoms than TRUE Americans-black ones had!!! Like wise Indian reservations and goodies are still being set aside for "Indian desendents" who are building damn casinos with it!!!! Do you honestly think BLACK AMERICAN tax money did not help pay for these REPARATIONS??? I have not heard Latinos or Asians complaining about the freedoms they now enjoyed because of AA hard work and displine yet they can not "pay". ha ha. "Conservatives" are nothing but liars. They want to end "slavery" and "black discrimination" after 1865, but it lasted another 100 years with Jim Crow. My own FATHER is a living desended of such discrimination. When will he get the reckonition that he is owed???
Anyway this is my last comment on this such because I feel like its piontless to discuss such things with someone who is not even AA. But to emphasis my piont one last time: I'm willing to do just about anything to preserve the memory and history of my brave ancestors. I do not want it claimed by "Africans" or WASP.
I do not celebrate Kwanzaa, however I do agree with the concept. I'm all for creating a uniquely Afro-American (black Amerian) tradition/culture. The only problem with this is that most AA traditions are just as Anglo as any White families'.
The only fault I find with Kwanzaa is it places too much emphasis on Africa! I and like many other Black Americans do not see myself as a 243rd generation "West African". We are collectively Black AND American!
This is why I am truly coming to despise this term African American. It is creating total confusion. I think Jesse had it figured out in his mind that he could bring Black Americans together by emphasizing the one thing everybody had in common for sure- African ancestry (and not to get close to our "African" heritage). The only problem with it is by bringing us together as "Africans in the diaspora", he's tearing apart our ethnicity/identity. Most young people my age don't want to pretend to be WASPs or Africans.
I really wish that "we" Black Americans could come up with some kind of "culture" that could preserve our "ethnicity". I could care less WHERE or WHO our customs were borrowed from, as long it wasn't SOMEONE ELSE'S-even West African. Right now I feel like we are on the verge of becoming Africans .... And that is not who most of us are!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Girlfromthenc has a point, I think, recognizing that the hyphenated phrase "African-American" sets up "black" U.S. Americans to conflict with African immigrants. Much more cultural open water separates immigrant Africans from U.S. "blacks" than slave ancestors. I would let the immigrants have the "African-American" label, with its land-of-origin conventional reference.
I offer the vaguer "Afro-American" as one way to distinguish our "black"-endogamous caste -- Americans who overwhelmingly possess "mixed" racial "bloods." In fact, I think this partly explains why the 1924 Virginia Racial Integrity Act defined people One Drop Rule (ODR) "colored" for having any "drop" of "black," not the other way around. I am sure this was because fear of "white amalgamation" drove the Jim Crow segregation laws in the early 20th century. Even "pure black" was given honorable lip service by the likes of Walter Plecker. The 1915 blockbuster movie Birth of A Nation depicted the patronizing "white" attitude toward "pure blacks." (There was a special White House showing for Pres. Woodrow Wilson, who voiced high praise.) This first horror flick's theme was the monstrosity of spreading Mulatto "blood." (I.e., growth of "colored.")
Did America err again since 1924 by letting its meaning of "colored" (now pc-speak: "of color") slide toward insinuating anyone not "pure white"?
Girlfromthenc has indicated (I'm pretty sure she has) that she would rather see an ethnic American "black" community coalesce its identity around "blood" descent from antebellum slaves. This makes a certain amount of sense when we recognize that these unfortunates' "bood" was "mixed" ("colored") -- their descendants are multiracial today, anyway. The NAACP's leadership shrieked in 1997 that with a multiracial census option 70% of "blacks" would "head for the door!" DNA data now confirms the tri-racial "mix" that are "black"-identified Americans today. (E.g., see Frank's Dec. 15, '04 essay The Heredity of "Racial" Traits <http://backintyme.com/Essay041215.htm>.)
Would Girlfromthenc consider embracing the phrase "black-endogamous Americans," "emancipated former-slave caste," "any-black-of-slave-descent pariah caste," or a similar formulation? "Colored" meant this; but it became politically incorrect after 1960. Is it possible that America still suffers problems accepting human blood being "impure," "mixed," "crossed," "hybrid," "amalgamated," "admixed," "cross-bred," "tainted," "mongrel," etc., as meaning "colored" (pc-speak: "of color")? Is belief in "race difference" the root of this problem, or are "the different ['pure'] races" only an element of it?
George
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1763 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Mon 13 Dec 2004 03:55 Post subject:
girlfromthenc wrote:
I disagree with you that Kwanzaa, or any other attempt at making a unquie AA custom "divides" people! It divides people no more than Mexicans putting Mexican flags on their car instead of American ones.
Comparing Mexicans putting Mexican flags on their cars with Kwanzaa as a unique custom is an apples to oranges comparison. They are not in the same league.
girlfromthenc wrote:
I personally think it helps Black Americans have a sense of self and their accomplishments. And "White Liberals" have nothing to do with it either.
In what way does Kwanzaa help Black Americans have a sense of accomplishments??? How can something fraudulent do this?? Sure White liberals have all to do with this. They are helping to perpetuate the lie. They do not want to know about the facts surrounding Kwanzaa. White liberals by and large control the media outlets which continue to publish myths about Kwanzaa.
girlfromthenc wrote:
Appearently "White Conservatives" are doing their damnest to destroy any Afro-American tradition that they can.
This is not true today. Not the white "conservatives" that I know. I'm sure that there are some, but I think that liberals black and white have done more to set back the black cause today than a white racist could 40 years ago. This is what happens when you refuse the truth and accept the myth in order for a group to feel good about themselves. In the long run, this is destructive.
girlfromthenc wrote:
It is not up to "White" identitied or even non-Blacks at all to decide what is AA and what is not. That should be left up to those citizens who choose to define themselves as Afro-American.
I totally agree with you here. It would help the cause though if this definition is based on historical and cultural facts.
girlfromthenc wrote:
Lastly, I've heard this arguement about everyone "passing" Black Americans. This is not true from what I have seen. Black Americans are the most sucessful minority except for Asian Americans. Asians tend to be even more sucessful than White Americans.
I didn't say everyone passing black Americans. This is what I said:
Dean Chapman wrote:
In another generation some of these Mexican folks will have surpassed many Black Americans economically.
Let's be honest here, ok?? You are indeed correct that black Americans are the most successful "minority" other than Asians. The most successful "black" people on this planet.
girlfromthenc wrote:
I think "Conservatives" try to find a scapegoat and tend to dwell on the negative too much. Black Americans only got their FREEDOM/ECONMIC OPPORTUNITY about 36 years ago!!!!! 1968 was the year the Civil Rights act was passed to stop housing discrimination for AAs.
You are totally wrong here about blacks only getting economic freedom in 1968. TOTALLY WRONG.
If you read Thomas Sowell who is a world reknowned economist at the Stanford Institute yo will know this:
Quote:
Not only do most whites not know this, neither do most blacks today, for their leaders have taken credit for this progress by depicting it as the fruits of their civil rights movements and political efforts. But the poverty rate among blacks fell by half between 1940 and 1960, before any of the major federal civil rights legislation or the vast expansion of the welfare state under President Lyndon Johnson's Great Society programs.
Between 1940 and 1960, black males' number of years of schooling doubled. How surprising is it that doubling your education raises your income? In short, most blacks raised themselves out of poverty, but their leaders robbed them of this achievement and the respect it deserved -- in the eyes of blacks and whites alike -- by making it seem like a concession from the government and a product of agitation.
If you would like or anybody else, I will provide more information to back my claim up. I will do so if asked.
girlfromthenc wrote:
Mexican, Latinos, Turks, Jews, Asians all enjoyed "a White status" before 1968. They have no excuses.
You are right with the exception of Asians. This is on a national level. Turks and Jews are Caucasians. Always have been.
girlfromthenc wrote:
Mexicans were in Georges(as he claims) White high school, when Black kids were being rocked to death by police. Mexicans have no excuse to be in the situation that they are in, other immigrants come here and are far more sucessful.
George who?? George Bush?? If so, Bush went to an elite private prep school in Massachusets, so if there were any Mexicans there, they had money. Mexicans don't have an excuse for the condition they are in?? That's a very ABSURD statement. The Mexicans that come over the border are not the Caucasian Mexicans, but the mestizo Mexicans. They are very poor in Mexico. So what makes you think when they come over the border that they wouldn't be as bad off here??? I would like to know this if you have an answer for me. Some are trouble makers. A lot work hard so they can send money back home. You have to understand something about other immgrants as you mentioned. The ones that usually come here legally are the "cream of the crop" where they come from. This is why so many Africans come here and are successful. Same goes for the Asians. The "cream of the crop" in Mexico by and large stays in Mexico. I hope you can uderstand this.
girlfromthenc wrote:
My grandmother's family were sharecroppers/worked on farmers and if you know what that is I dont' need to say more. My grandmothers did not have the MONEY to send my PARENTS to school/college. Its only NOW that the grandchildren are getting a chance to go to school.
I understand. But you should use the oppotunity you have to look forward into the future, not backwards at the past. You cannot do anything to change the past, but you can do everything you can to effect the future. It's up to you.......
girlfromthenc wrote:
And you believe "blacks" should feel sorry for immigrants???? They have had all the "White" opportunities in the world.
Where the hell did I say this???? No they have not had all the "white" opportunities in the world. That is total rubbish.
girlfromthenc wrote:
And one more thing: I need to piont this out because I hear this out of a lot of conservatives mouths but reparations and talk about it doesn't hurt black Americans what hurts them is lack of econmic establishment.
You're right, reparations talk doesn't hurt blacks but it is a complete waste of time. Because, IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!!!! You first must convince the the people who fund the government, also known as taxpayers, that they are responsible and therefore, have to pay. All the wack jobs on the black forums would always say, "it's not the people, but the government!!" Well Dr. Rocket Scientist, the people are essentially the government. This will do nothing but inflame racial divisions, blacks against everybody else. If you REALLY wanted to have a positive affect on black economics, you would discuss things that are atainable. Reparations I repeat, is not.
girlfromthenc wrote:
Its almost laughable that Japanese Americans sued and won reparations when they enjoyed more freedoms than TRUE Americans-black ones had!!! Like wise Indian reservations and goodies are still being set aside for "Indian desendents" who are building damn casinos with it!!!! Do you honestly think BLACK AMERICAN tax money did not help pay for these REPARATIONS??? I have not heard Latinos or Asians complaining about the freedoms they now enjoyed because of AA hard work and displine yet they can not "pay". ha ha.
Japanese Americans lost all their property only in the 1940s. Some are still alive. I don't think that anyone who was a slave is alive. Yes Jim Crow didn't end until 1964, but there were many black success stories before then.
girlfromthenc wrote:
"Conservatives" are nothing but liars. They want to end "slavery" and "black discrimination" after 1865, but it lasted another 100 years with Jim Crow.
I don't quite understand what you wrote here other than your redundant "conservatives are liars"
girlfromthenc wrote:
My own FATHER is a living desended of such discrimination. When will he get the reckonition that he is owed???
I don't know how to answer this, but it's not going to be reparations, I'll tell you that.
girlfromthenc wrote:
Anyway this is my last comment on this such because I feel like its piontless to discuss such things with someone who is not even AA. But to emphasis my piont one last time: I'm willing to do just about anything to preserve the memory and history of my brave ancestors. I do not want it claimed by "Africans" or WASP.
[Omissions.]
Like wise Indian reservations and goodies are still being set aside for "Indian desendents" who are building damn casinos with it!!!! [b]Do you honestly think BLACK AMERICAN tax money did not help pay for these REPARATIONS???
Girlfromthenc, among other things, questions here the federal U.S. government's special supporting of the recognized American Indian tribes, now "wards" of the government.
I think this special supportive relationship is grounded on the "biological" "different race" notion. I would not minimize the suffering, injustice, or the cruelty and death that previous generations of Indians suffered because of pioneers (predominantly "whites") coveting, taking away Indian lands. Quite arguably, I think, Indian suffering was greater than "blacks'." Tens of millions of Indians died of imported diseases. Attempts at genocide tried sometimes to exterminate Indians. They suffered while valuable "black" slaves were looked after. Following the Civil War, "black" Buffalo Soldiers were employed fighting Indians. Nonetheless, all of that has been history now for a long time.
Numerous treaties have resulted in the U.S. government regarding Indian nations as defeated, client nations within our nation. The conquest of Indian lands was a long campaign that long was truly international conflict. But the posture of it today is that Indians are full American citizens -- and more. Only Indians enjoy the extra super-citizenship of the special Indian entitlements. Among these are the right to build huge gambling casinos, such as the one that glares its advertising lights over my home each night. True, many Indians' only "entitlement" is a place on a dusty reservation. But I am excluded; and I am not allowed to have a casino where I can live. My Asian, "black," and Hispanic friends I are denied Indian citizenship rights based on our government-classified individual "races." How is that squared with the equal protection (creation equal) doctrine?
I seriously doubt that it would be this way if Indians had all along been perceived as cultural or ethnic competition, sans their special "red race" connotation of "biologically different." (Not their fault back then.) Do the Irish clamor for "reparations" from English? From "white" Americans? (19th century Irish were despised, called a "lower race.") Did "white" Jews sue for reparations against any "white" peoples except Germany, so recently Nazi? (The Jewish and Aryan "races," both, were declared nonexistent by the U.N. when I was a Texas boy about 6 -- starting school with "white" Mexican-Am kids w/nut-brown complexions.) Were certain citizens deported to Mexico during the 1930s Great Depression, and more in early WWII, not entitled to sue for damages regardless they might have been classifiable as "white" Hispanic? Is it not clear, therefore, that the "different race" claim is all that triggers ancestral "race reparations" bleats?
As Girlfromthenc says, the entitlements Indian tribes receive work out to be racial "reparations." As coherent nations or tribal group entities reparations might be logical. (E.g., Anglo-French reparations exacted from Germany after WWI -- logical but unreasonable.) But I think we are long past the time when Indian tribes are anything but ethnic fictions. Same as with alleged "black ethnicity/culture," the true fabric of Indian entitlement is "different race" "biology," as government classified on individuals. Even if tribes are somewhat relict tribal groups, they are unnecessary decoration now that all Indians may freely assimilate Mainstream (or alternatively, they may exercise their 1st Amend. Const. rights much as "white" Amish & Hutterites do). It is plain to me that the tribes' only function now, beyond making selected elite chief-relatives rich on casino proceeds, is to establish tribal religion. I think this is not constitutional government outlay of moneys got from Girlfromthenc's hard working "black" taxpayers, or from any of the rest of us.
Girlfromthenc seems to indicate, then, that Indian "red race" "difference" is just another part of America's immense "biological races" problem. If so, I strongly agree with her. But I likely differ with Girlfromthenc on the right solution. I would fix the problem by constitutionally abolishing the whole "different races" notion.
George
Dean, my God I was not talking about George Bush and you know it. I was talking about our very own ODR George!
Also I love how you down play "Japanese" reparations. "There were sucessful Black people then too........". lol still no excuse. Black hard working Americans-who were treated like 2nd class citizens- should have never had to pay for sucessful businesses of immigrants and sons of immigrants that were treated better than them. That's pitful!!! And another TRUTH White Conservatives try to distort!
Same with Indians. "Black" ex cotton pickers have been pulling their share for folks who were treated BETTER THAN THEM??? Should they have been wining and bitching like I hear White Conservatives do??
My God. If we were talking about anybody other than NIGGERS we would have a good honest reparations talk going on.
George you know darn well I was not trying to imply in the slighest way that I advocated a seperate "Afro-American" ethnicity for "multiracial" reasons. I want them for HISTORICAL (and cultural) reasons. Both Colin Powell and Osama Barak (sp) are Multiracial or indentified as "Black", but they are NOT of Afro-American hertiage. That's all I'm trying to say on that subject.
And you sound just like a Conservative, trying to downplay and give reason to why Indians have been enjoying reparations that Blacks have not! So what if Indians lost their lands? My ancestors lost their LAND, HAD THEIR FAMILIES SEPERATED,LOST THEIR RELIGION (THEY SURE WEREN'T BAPTIST WHEN THEY GOT HERE), LOST THEIR LANGUAGE, FAMILY TRADITIONS AS WELL AS THEIR FREEDOM-not to mention how many lost their lives. What more can a people lose? And this wasn't for 10 years like the Jews cry about with the Holucaust, this misery lasted over 300 years!!!! And this sure wasn't just in a war like the Japanese bitched about.
Over 300 years!!!!
Only a crazy person could even compare other folks plight here to that of Black people. The Irish and the Jews, as soon as their children lost their accents or changed their last names they were "American".!!
Indian "complaints" can't even compare either! 1.) For the reasons I mentioned earlier. Its almost SICK that Black Americans have been paying for American Indian casinos all these damn years.
And lastly, please, please don't let me hear you or anyone else say that "White folks 'took care of their slaves'". My God, don't insult my ancestors like that ever again. They were not TAKEN CARE OF, they were KEPT ALIVE to pick cotton and tabacco!!! They were not seen as human beings and given Peace Treaties like Native Americans, they were White folk's property!
This is part of the reason I'm pushing so hard for this seperate Afro-American ethnicity. I dont' want these LIES turned into the truth! And its up to AFRO-AMERICANS to keep the real truth alive!!!
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1763 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Mon 13 Dec 2004 20:31 Post subject:
girlfromthenc wrote:
Dean, my God I was not talking about George Bush and you know it. I was talking about our very own ODR George!
No I didn't know, forgive me for being so thick headed. I cannot read your mind. You have a tendency of not specifying points very well at times. But in a sense since George posted and specifically referred to you, I should have put 2 and 2 together and figured it out.
girlfromthenc wrote:
Also I love how you down play "Japanese" reparations. "There were sucessful Black people then too........". lol still no excuse. Black hard working Americans-who were treated like 2nd class citizens- should have never had to pay for sucessful businesses of immigrants and sons of immigrants that were treated better than them. That's pitful!!! And another TRUTH White Conservatives try to distort!
No I am not playing down Japanese reparations. If what happened to the Japamese happened in 1842 as oppossed to 1942, I would be a vehemently oppossed to Japanese receiving reparations as I am for blacks receiving reparations today.
You are correct that black hard working Americans were treated as second class citizens, and that was WRONG. But there is nothing we can do about that now. We can only move forward. You are wasting your time on this issue when it could be better spent on something attainable, but it's your time........
I always used to ask members on the black forums if a reparations payment were awarded, how would the money be divied up?? Would it be based on the percentage of black blood. How about those who were "house slaves"?? Would the descendants of the field slaves receive more?? If then, why?? Would the presense of the masters blood yield smaller payments?? Or would it be as Jesse Jackson has suggested, it would only go to groups such as his own. If so, who would determine which groups and how much per group?? I could go on and on. As usual, I never recieved an intelligent response, only ad hominem attacks meaning these people did not have any answers.
girlfromthenc wrote:
My God. If we were talking about anybody other than NIGGERS we would have a good honest reparations talk going on.
I don't think so. My great grandfather was the son of slaves. He attained no more than a 4th grade formal education. Yet he was an avid reader and entreprenuer who sent 3 kids to college. He was the exception granted. I asked my great Aunts before they passed away what their father would think of reparations. They didn't even have to think about it and said at the same time he would be oppossed. In my mind, someone like him WOULD be entitled to reparations, not me who is 4 generations removed from slavery.
girlfromthenc wrote:
Only a crazy person could even compare other folks plight here to that of Black people.
Wow, isn't that what you are doing in the next quote????
girlfromthenc wrote:
And this wasn't for 10 years like the Jews cry about with the Holucaust, this misery lasted over 300 years!!!! And this sure wasn't just in a war like the Japanese bitched about.
Over 300 years!!!!
...and the next.....
girlfromthenc wrote:
Indian "complaints" can't even compare either! 1.) For the reasons I mentioned earlier. Its almost SICK that Black Americans have been paying for American Indian casinos all these damn years.
But in those 10 years, the Jews lost 6 million people, have you forgot about that??? This happened during the lifetime of my parents.
In some ways what happened to the Japanese Americans was worse. They had their lives and property confiscated and were uprooted to camps. I know you will deliberately misconstrue what I just stated to fit your agenda. I am used to dealing with people like you on these boards.
I am not apologizing for slavery or minimizing slavery. It was a horrible institution. I have done extensive reading on it. I used to be sort of like you when I was younger. I was very bitter and hateful. I did not say that you were hateful, but I detect a bitterness. I came to a point in my life where I either would dwell on the past, something I cannot change, which was holding me back because of my attitude. Or I could let it go, and work toward the future. I decided on the latter and have not looked back. I did not get this bitterness from my parents, I got it from hateful leftists. This why I know precisely how the left thinks and their operational tactics. Though I always celebrated my mixed heritage (both my parents are multi-racial really) since I had learned about it, I had a hatred for America, and conservatives. Yup, that's right. Since I have seen the light, I am positive. But I also am not afraid of the truth, no matter where it comes from. This is one of the reasons why I abandoned the left. It was the propensity not to deal with the facts. I can go on.....
I have offered you suggestions, it's up to you. The one thing I will NOT take from you is your blatant mis-representation of things that I have writen. This is intellectual dishonesty. In a debate, you must learn to focus on what was actually stated. When you state something, offer some sort of information to substantiate what you stated. Otherwise you will not be taken seriously. You can take it or leave it.......
Dean, little do you know this but you have put forth no kind of reasonable argurment on this subject. All you keep stating is that the you believe the "Japanese", "Jews" and "Native Americans" had it somehow worst than Black Americans. And of course, Black Americans should move on (as oppose to the Japanese and Native Americans NOT moving on), both of whom got/get Reparations money from the very people they are marring at rates as high as 50%- and of course the Nigger's hard earned money.
What sense is your argurment when you say "Japanese" DESERVE reparations because it was in "your life time" when my damn father "which is in your lifetime" was denied access to certain waterfountains??? Do the Japanesse take racism harder than blacks or something? When Black churches, homes and schools were burned down DURING THE 1950'S AND 1960'S CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT and people were lynched (as well as terrorized) do you not count that as a "lost" or "lose in property"? Does history teach you that this was in your lifetime or my father's- WHO IS VERY MUCH ALIVE, -lifetime? Do you know about the Black American civil rights' movement and the racism the people involved in it face?? FYI: Coretta Scott King is still alive and so is Malcolm X's wife.................this is "in your lifetime". No damn Japanese deserves more than these people!!!!
________________________________________________
Anyway, I'm not expecting an honest answer. What I do expect are EXCUSES
Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 1763 } Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Mon 13 Dec 2004 22:46 Post subject:
girlfromthenc wrote:
Dean, little do you know this but you have put forth no kind of reasonable argurment on this subject. All you keep stating is that the "Japanese", "Jews" and "Native Americans" had it somehow worst than Black Americans. And of course, Black Americans should move on (as oppose to the Japanese and Native Americans NOT moving on), both of whom got/get Reparations money from the very people they are marring at rates as high as 50%- and of course the Nigger's hard earned money.
More of your intellectual dishonesty as I expected.
This is what I in fact said:
Dean Chapman wrote:
In some ways what happened to the Japanese Americans was worse. They had their lives and property confiscated and were uprooted to camps. I know you will deliberately misconstrue what I just stated to fit your agenda. I am used to dealing with people like you on these boards.
At least you are consistent.
girlfromthenc wrote:
What sense is your argurment when you say "Japanese" DESERVE reparations because it was in "your life time" when my damn father "which is in your lifetime" was denied access to certain waterfountains??? Do the Japanesse take racism harder than blacks or something? When Black churches, homes and schools were burned down and people were lynched (as well as terrorized) do you not count that as a "lost" or "lose in property"? Does history teach you that this was in your lifetime or my father's- WHO IS VERY MUCH ALIVE, -lifetime?
What happened to the Japanese was not in my life time. I stated that if you would bother to read it. Like I have said repeatedly, I am with you when it comes time to the way blacks were treated. You lose me on the reparations. The US Federal government did not systematically do any of this. It was some states. The federal government is guilty of NOT enforcing the law against the various states. That is until the 1950s. FDR gave the order to intern American born people of Japanese descent.
girlfromthenc wrote:
Maybe you should look beyond what White Conservatives are telling you. But anyway, I don't expect anymore from people at this website. What I do expect are EXCUSES
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