Posted: Sat 27 Aug 2005 00:48 Post subject: Argentineans Who Look Black to Americans
What fraction of the Argentine population “looks Black” to Americans, or to Chileans, Puerto Ricans, etc.? The subject of the perception of “racial” traits is interesting because anyone can observe a subject and decide if he/she “looks Black,” and almost everyone believes that others must be seeing the same image (and are lying when they deny it), despite well-known evidence that “racial” perception varies dramatically among cultures. Some of us want to pursue the question of which Argentines “look Black” to whom. This thread is meant to focus on verifiable photos of real Argentineans, along with some indication whether they are merely recent immigrants.
This thread is part three of a four-way split of the previous thread, "Studies on Argentine Population."
They can speak for themselves when they describe their experiences in their own countries. Remember that Looking a certain way is subjective, but wether they see them as Negros, Mulatos or what, if they feel ostracized because of a certain degree of visible African admixture, then they are not a dissapeared group that has fully integrated but legitimate sub-groups that still have unique experiences in both Argentina and Chile.
That may all be true but does not address the above question: "What fraction of the Argentine population looks Black.” As stated above, relevant evidence would be verifiable photos of real Argentineans, along with some indication whether they are merely recent immigrants.
The Argentine link that Salsassin provided (En Argentina "no hay negros") explicitly states that the so-called "Negros" of today's Argentina look White.
Quote:
África Vive calcula que los afroargentinos, descendientes de esclavos, son cerca de dos millones de personas en todo el país. Sin embargo, hoy en día muchos de ellos tienen la piel blanca, producto de la mezcla con las numerosas migraciones europeas, pero llevan en sus venas parte de la sangre, y muchas veces los apellidos, de sus antepasados africanos.
Translation: [A well-meaning non-governmental organization] calculates that about two million argentineans descend from slaves. Nevertheless, many of them today have white skin consequent to mixing with immigrant Europeans, but they carry in their veins the blood, and often the surnames, of their African ancestors.
Although fascinating, this polemic is irrelevant to the topic at hand. The topic of this thread is how they look, not how they feel nor what blood courses in their veins.
The Argentine link that Salsassin provided (En Argentina "no hay negros") explicitly states that the so-called "Negros" of today's Argentina look White.
You must have completely overlooked the part where the airport authorities could not beleive she was Argentinean because 'in Argentina there aren't any Blacks.' Obviously to those port authorities, she looked Black. In a country where Afro-diasporic features are an extreme minority, they stand out a lot. Her types of features exist more in the Brazilian immigrants. Many who identify as negras although they have admixture.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Sat 27 Aug 2005 19:07 Post subject: Very few Blacks
Salsassin wrote:
fwsweet wrote:
The Argentine link that Salsassin provided (En Argentina "no hay negros") explicitly states that the so-called "Negros" of today's Argentina look White.
You must have completely overlooked the part where the airport authorities could not beleive she was Argentinean because 'in Argentina there aren't any Blacks.' Obviously to those port authorities, she looked Black. In a country where Afro-diasporic features are an extreme minority, they stand out a lot. Her types of features exist more in the Brazilian immigrants. Many who identify as negras although they have admixture.
That's a good point.
If the airport authorities were so suprised was because of the simple fact they NEVER had the opportinity to see a Black Argentinean before !
They see thousand of people daily, millions every year, and just in one SINGLE occasion they found a Black Argentinean. How come they would not be surpriesed?
That's say a lot about the Black Argentinean minority: it's a myth.
Now "Negras" does not sound right, we preffer to say "Negritas" instead (pretty Black women).
Posted: Sat 27 Aug 2005 19:47 Post subject: Re: Very few Blacks
oevega wrote:
That's say a lot about the Black Argentinean minority: it's a myth.
This is not a binary (either/or) issue. On the one hand, there are surely some residents of Argentina who look at least partly African. Argentina liberalized its immigration policy decades ago, accepting newcomers from Haiti, Santo Domingo, Cuba, Brazil, even from Africa. Even earlier, Cape Verdeans came in under Portuguese passports (when the Cape Verdes were a colony).
Come to think of it, when I started at Martinez, IBM's Latin America headquarters were in B.A. (They later moved their HQ to Montevideo.) IBM was notorious for moving families from one country to another (the offical joke was that the letters stood for "I Been Moved"), and some IBMers in B.A. were of dark skin tone. Some may have settled there.
On the other hand, the fraction of Argentineans who look partly African is surely very small--probably less that one percent. As Omar points out, why else would customs inspectors be surprised?
It seems to me that there are two questions that need to be addressed. First, just what is the percentage? Second, are they all recent immigrants or do any of these families trace their cultural roots to the vanished 19th-century Afro-Argentine community?
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Sun 28 Aug 2005 00:47 Post subject: Re: Very few Blacks
fwsweet wrote:
It seems to me that there are two questions that need to be addressed. First, just what is the percentage? Second, are they all recent immigrants or do any of these families trace their cultural roots to the vanished 19th-century Afro-Argentine community?
Hi,
Immigration to the countries of Latin America has fall down quite a lot from the early XX Century. In those times half the Argentinean population was foreign born, for instance. At those times emigration from Latin America to other regions was almost inexistent as well.
Today Latin America does not attrack massive immigration at all. First, this region does not need immigrants very much today, so the ones that arrive do it by their own risk and with their own money. There is no welfare or help of any kind to incentivate immigration. There is not much jobs either. Today the largest attractor of immigrants are North America, Australia and Europe. Places that a lot more attractive for immigrants than Latin America. Today, Latin America is a region that produces immigrants rather than demanding them, however that tendence might be in its final phase as well. In every region there exist floating populations of foreigners, and Latin America is not the exception. However, most of the times those are temporary visits that does not leave roots.
The main surces of immigrants to the region are internal at these times. Peoples of poor countries migrate to richer regions. Like is the case of Peruvian to Chile and Bolivians to Argentina. Another large minority are East Asians that have been very common in later years. There still are some Europeans and Americans that arrive to this regions trying to escape from the "rat race", however they are not very numerous either. There is not a massive immigration of African, not even Brazilians, at this moments to the region.
Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1082 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Mon 29 Aug 2005 14:11 Post subject: Interesting...
Frank wrote:
What fraction of the Argentine population “looks Black” to Americans, or to Chileans, Puerto Ricans, etc.?
I can offer a glimpse of a similar situation in Portugal. Of course, the vast, vast majority of Portuguese have European phenotypes, which stands to reason, since African genes are so dispersed in this population (as well as other European populations with African DNA, like Italians, French, etc.) that it would be highly unlikely for them to line up in one individual. There are, of course, Black African immigrants in Portugal (roughly one percent of the population), and naturally, Black immigrants exist in many other European countries as well. But are there native Portuguese who have somewhat African-looking phenotypes due to Black slave absorption?
The answer is yes, but they are so small in number and so isolated that almost no other Portuguese come into contact with them. There are a few very small villages in formerly malarial river valleys in the Alentejo and Algarve where some people (not all, of course) display mixed-looking features. The total number of such villages is about a half-dozen, and each village has only about 400-500 people, a very small fraction of whom display some African features. My Portuguese friend set out on a quest to find these people. One little village, called Rio do Moinhos (River of Mills), whose inhabitants were once called mulatos do Sado (mulattos of the River Sado), is a bit better known than the others. My friend visited this village, and saw a few people with African features (at least in his opinion, and he's an ordinary white Portuguese Lisbonite), such as thick lips, flat noses, and kinky hair. A few had European features, but very dark skin (for Europeans). Interestingly, though, these features were present in only a few old people. The middle-aged and younger generations looked white.
My friend also mentioned that there was a documentary made on these people. This caused some geneticists to want to test the inhabitants of this and other such villages for evidence of African admixture. Indeed, the tests concluded that African admixture is negligible in Portugal, except in these areas, where it is considerably elevated. This study was mentioned in a large book on Portuguese history published a few years ago. My friend flipped through it in a bookstore in Lisbon, and came across the study. He didn't purchase the book, because it was very expensive.
Back to the documentary: Several older villagers mentioned that in the 1940's, official looking people came to the village with various instruments and measured noses and other facial features, and ran special combs through their hair. At the time, it was believed the government was investigating claims to their having African ancestry. It is now believed the studies were performend by a university interested in this phenomenon.
I wonder if such people (descendants of Black slaves with mixed features) exist in isolated, little-known enclaves in Argentina, or for that matter, in France, Italy, Sicily, Holland, Britain, etc. If so, how do they identify? The few such people in Portugal know of their African ancestry but refuse to talk about it. One man who was a little more open mentioned that the villagers were so discriminated against and ostracized in the past that they thought it best to stay among themselves and not discuss African ancestry. The in-marriage explains the retention of partly African phenotypes, which surely would have disappeared if they had out-married.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Mon 29 Aug 2005 17:59 Post subject: Re: Interesting...
William wrote:
I wonder if such people (descendants of Black slaves with mixed features) exist in isolated, little-known enclaves in Argentina, or for that matter, in France, Italy, Sicily, Holland, Britain, etc. If so, how do they identify? The few such people in Portugal know of their African ancestry but refuse to talk about it. One man who was a little more open mentioned that the villagers were so discriminated against and ostracized in the past that they thought it best to stay among themselves and not discuss African ancestry. The in-marriage explains the retention of partly African phenotypes, which surely would have disappeared if they had out-married.
Hi,
Portugal is a Mediterranean country and its population is very similar to the Spaniard, Italian, Greek and even Moroccan and Tunesian, all Mediterranean people that share a lot of genetics. But Blacks they are not.
We know that in South America because we have receive Portuguese immigration as well, and they are of both mediterranean and nordic types.
I also find pathetic the way the Moorish people (Morrocans and Magreb peoples) are continuously confussed with South Saharian Africans. Moors are a distinct people that still exist, and they should be respected for what they are.
In Argentina it is very difficult to have some enclaves of isolated Blacks. There was not a barrier in Argentina that stopped the absortion. However, if you look for Black populations, you should study the Blacks of Uruguay. There is no secret 4% of Uruguayans are Black. In Bolivia I know there is a small minority (less that 1%) but I don't know details. And in Peru 4% of the population is Black. In Venezuela and Colombia, 10% of the population is Black. And in Brazil 40% of the population is Mulatto and about 6% is Black. Argentina, Paraguay and Chile have no black population except by some very few recent migrants.
Blacks in Latin America are distributed according to the climate. There are non in the high Andes or in the Souther cone, because the wet and cold weather was very bad for their health in the brutal conditions of slavery of the past. Most black population are located in the coastal lines of Northern South America.
Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1082 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Mon 29 Aug 2005 18:35 Post subject:
Hi, Omar:
Omar wrote:
Portugal is a Mediterranean country and its population is very similar to the Spaniard, Italian, Greek and even Moroccan and Tunesian, all Mediterranean people that share a lot of genetics. But Blacks they are not.
We know that in South America because we have receive Portuguese immigration as well, and they are of both mediterranean and nordic types.
Absolutely! You are definitely correct in that Portuguese are white Europeans. What I was referring to was a very small off-the-beaten-path population (certainly less than 500 individuals) who display mild African features because of isolation in remote malarial valleys in the south where African slaves had been a few centuries ago. These people, like I said, are infinitesimally small in number and are virtually unknown. I've never seen them personally. And you are correct, Portuguese can be Meditteranean or Nordic. When I was in Portugal, I noticed many Nordic types scattered throughout, but concentrated particularly in the north.
But you don't think very small populations such as this (descended from Black slaves, with admixed features) exist in Argentina?
Are there groups of Portuguese in Chile?
I'm not sure if you saw my question in another thread about the Germans of Valparaiso. I am wondering if they still exist as a group, or if they've already out-married. You mentioned that no ethnic group retains its identity in Latin America for very long.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Mon 29 Aug 2005 20:00 Post subject: Small groups
William wrote:
But you don't think very small populations such as this (descended from Black slaves, with admixed features) exist in Argentina?
I don't think so. What exists, I am pretty sure, are certain individuals with skin darker than the expected, others perhaps too curly, or some with thick lips. You never see it al together in the same individual, though. And those features always overlap with Arabic and Moorish influences from Europe. So, who knows?
As isolated groups I am pretty sure there is none. Perhaps in the frontiers with Uruguay or Brazil. Even in Chile, the famous "Oro Negro" group of the frontier with Peru is highly hybridized as well. And I am sure it exist only because Arica was the port that supplied Peru of slaves .
Quote:
Are there groups of Portuguese in Chile?
Not as a group. There are lots of Portuguese last names in Chile though, like Pereira, for instance, which is quite common. Unlike Portugueses, Spaniards, Italians, Germans, Arabs and other have social clubs in Chile.
Quote:
I'm not sure if you saw my question in another thread about the Germans of Valparaiso. I am wondering if they still exist as a group, or if they've already out-married. You mentioned that no ethnic group retains its identity in Latin America for very long.
Germans don't exist as a group in Valparaiso. The Germanic cities are located down south; Valdivia for instance.
Germans exist in certain number in Chile (200.000), and it is not strange to find Chileans with germanic features, although is not the majority of the population. Some groups are still quite isolated from the rest of people, specially in the countryside. However, most Germans have already intermarry with the rest of the population.
Valparaiso was a British town during the XIX century, not Germanic.
There are places in southern Chile were you can find complete german towns, with Oktoberfest included. Argentina and Brazil have german populations by the millions.
'
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