Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Sun 04 Sep 2005 01:35 Post subject: 100 INDIVIDUALS OR HOW TO INVENT A MINORITY IN CHILE
Hi,
I finally found the actual number of Black persons in Arica, Chile. There are less than 100 individuals all living in Arica, in the frontier with Peru.
100 people is less than the population of Russians in Chile. LOL
For me, claiming they are a "ethnic" minority is just a joke. I believe they are just a group of people that are calling a lot of attention and they are achieving to become famous. Imagine, 100 people from Chile have the same force than the 80 millions of Brazilian Afro-descendents or the Million of Peruvian Blacks. It's seem weird to me.
After all, we know there are not Blacks in Chile ! Well, if one discount those 100 mixed persons of Arica, Chile, anyways
In any case, their story is interesting because they suffered a lot when my country, Chile, invaded Peru (19 century). Chileans are a race of mixed European-Native peoples that have been extremely racist against Blacks and Asian in the past. In fact both Natives and Hispanics have had a history of crude racism against the quite a few Blacks that had lived in my country in colonial times. Even the institution of slavery was not tolerated because of that same reason.
So when the invasion of Peru happened in the 19th century, it seems there were killings of Black peoples in the occupied territories.
Well, Chile military has also a tradition of playing tough with foreigners in wars, and sometimes with its own people as well.
I attached an article in Spanish that could be interesting for schollars to look at. The original address is:
LOS DESCENDIENTES DE ESCLAVOS
Chile "negro"
Santiago de Chile, Viernes 01 de Noviembre de 2002
Texto: Marcelo Simonetti
Si uno mira a Francisca Ríos y se olvida de la escenografía que habita, es posible imaginarla en una barriada de Mombasa o de Adis-Abeba. Uno siente que detrás de su rostro negro y su pelo rizado puede aparecer un bosque de baobabs o una manada de leones. ¿Se oyen los tambores? ¿Se ve la fogata? ¿El ritual de la tribu? Si se pone atención, nada de eso existe alrededor de Francisca Ríos. Está el calendario de una botillería colgado en una pared en el living de mimbre. No hay leones ni hipopótamos. Un perro bien chileno menea la cola cerca suyo. Es Arica y no Mombasa. Es el valle de Azapa y no el desierto del Sahara.
Francisca Ríos tiene 73 años. No sabe si fue su tatarabuelo o la abuela de su abuelo quien llegó a Chile como esclavo, traído desde Angola o del Congo, o de alguna otra colonia africana. "Yo realmente no sabía que era descendiente de esclavos. En mi familia nunca se hablaban esas cosas". Como ella, hay casi un centenar de chilenos que descienden de africanos y tienen conciencia de su origen. Los miembros de la Fundación Oro Negro, creada en diciembre de 2000, salieron a recorrer el valle, puerta por puerta, en busca de afroherederos. Hallaron historias que urdiéndolas, les permitieron armar el tronco genealógico de algunos descendientes, o fotografías en las que es fácil concluir el parentesco entre algunas familias chilenas y las que habitan el continente negro. Hay una en particular que debe haber sido tomada en los cincuenta. La familia posa en un patio. Son casi veinte, entre abuelos, padres, tíos y niños que se arriman a los faldones blancos de las mujeres mayores. Todos tienen la piel negra, a excepción de uno o dos, cuando mucho. Ríen con sus dientes de color perla y llevan trajes de lino, alpargatas, pañuelos en la cabeza.
Éramos diez hermanos y vivíamos acá, en Azapa. Había una escuelita al lado de la casa y mis padres criaban pavos, chanchos, gallinas. Teníamos hartos animales. Eran tiempos de guarapo, un licor que se hacía con la caña de azúcar y que se tomaba para las fiestas. Se bailaba el tumbe. Yo era una niña, pero veía a los grandes como chocaban las caderas y decían ¡tuuuuuumbe! Me acuerdo también de mi padre, Juan Ríos Albarracín, que en las noches cantaba valses peruanos. "Ay, Josefina, la noche en que te vi...". O esa otra que decía "...a lo lejos de la playa, se divisa una linda pescadora, que se baña". Cantaba muchas otras canciones de las que me he olvidado explica Francisca.
La mayoría de sus recuerdos la hacen reír con suavidad. Nunca tuvo problemas por el color de su piel. "¿Por qué me iba a ofender si me decían negra? Si negra soy. Lo que me hubiera dado rabia es que me dijeran rubia". Ella, que nació en Arica después del plebiscito de 1925 que determinó que Tacna era para Perú y Arica para Chile, es un buen ejemplo de lo que está ocurriendo con los afrodescendientes. Muchos de ellos vivieron ignorando su origen, más por ignorancia que por vergüenza. Como dice Carlos, su hijo: "Para algunos, esto de que descendemos de la raza africana es algo nuevo. Yo vine a saberlo a los 30 años, cuando me enteré de que la mayoría de los morochos de Chile y Sudamérica venían de allá. Antes uno pensaba que era negro de tanto quemarse al sol. O le decían, del Perú, del Perú, del Perú. Ahora yo veo negros en la televisión por todos lados. No son nada de quedados. En el deporte, usted ve cualquier cantidad de negritos jugando de maravillas. Y uno piensa que si hubiésemos sido negros puros, sin mezclas, habríamos sido igual que ellos para jugar al fútbol o para el atletismo".
Hay muchos descendientes que, igual que Carlos o su madre, doña Francisca, recién se están interesando en saber quiénes son, de dónde vienen y, de paso, traspasar ese vínculo a sus propios hijos. Carlos les cuenta con orgullo que descienden de los esclavos africanos que llegaron a Chile y que no fueron tan pocos como se cree. El historiador Jaime Eyzaguirre establece, en Historia de las instituciones políticas y sociales de Chile, que en el siglo diecisiete había entre tres mil y cuatro mil negros en Chile. Y René Peri Fageström, en su libro La raza negra en Chile, una presencia negada, recoge el dato del censo realizado por el gobernador Agustín de Jáuregui, en 1778, en el que se contabilizaron 21.585 negros y mulatos. Peri también revela facetas no tan conocidas de esos primeros negros en territorio sudamericano, al repasar las anotaciones del alemán Eckart Kroneberg, quien cruzó los Andes siguiendo la huella del ejército de San Martín: "Los más valientes, los más audaces hombres del general, tienen la piel negra, porque San Martín ha comprado la libertad a estos esclavos con las múltiples donaciones recibidas para reforzar con ellos su Ejército Libertador. Estos negros aceptan gustosos la nueva esclavitud que, en caso de triunfar, los llevará a la libertad".
Señora Alcaldesa
Sonia Salgado Corvacho tiene la sonrisa fácil, el alma alegre y no evita que la sorpresa asome de nuevo cuando recuerda la vez que fue a Sudáfrica y visitó algunas comunidades en las afueras de Durban. "Fue impresionante. Eran comunidades que antiguamente se habían organizado en tribus, zulúes y watusis en su mayoría. Lo sorprendente fue que los tejidos que ellos elaboraban y algunos bailes que practicaban eran iguales a lo que yo había visto en mi casa o las de mis tías en Arica. La única diferencia era que nuestros hermanos africanos conservan la cultura negroide y nosotros no".
Ese viaje lo realizó en agosto de 2001. Fue invitada a la tercera Conferencia Mundial contra el Racismo, la Xenofobia y la Discriminación, en su calidad de directora de la Fundación Oro Negro y también por el hecho de ser la primera alcaldesa de Chile, en rigor la única, afroamericana, cargo que ocupa desde hace ocho años.
Sonia es parte de una familia que tiene "tradición negra": los Corvacho. De hecho, ese apellido viene de la palabra corbacho, que no es otra cosa que un látigo que se hacía con la verga del toro y con el cual se azotaba a los esclavos. A Sonia le contaron que su abuela y su tatarabuela eran azules de negras. Y de propia boca escuchó a su abuela, Rita Corvacho, decir que a los 15 años había visto esclavos con cadenas y todo. "Pero esclavos chinos, aun así mi abuela protestaba porque, claro, ya se había abolido la esclavitud".
Alcaldesa de Camarones, Sonia salió electa con el voto de los aimaras, que son mayoría en su comuna que incluye pueblos como Codpa, Cobija, Timar, Sahuara y Camarones. Pequeños manchones verdes que emergen en la mitad del desierto. Tierra de familias sin grandes recursos con las que ella trabaja desde que era asistente social de la Municipalidad de Camarones. Ha conseguido que mujeres de 70 años puedan levantar fábricas de mermeladas y dulces en medio de la nada. Y que oriundos de la zona no sólo se dediquen a criar un puñado de animales, sino que también sean capaces de montar una microempresa de turismo. O sacar sus producciones de vino Pintatani, toda una tradición en el norte. Como si fuera poco llenó la comuna de caminos, porque sabe que la integración es vital, no sólo física: "Lo que me anima es hacer de este territorio un espacio para todos. Que haya igualdad para los aimaras, para los mapuches, para los afrodescendientes. Ahí también está la razón de ser de Oro Negro. Queremos combatir la discriminación. Sabemos que el racismo es la mayor causa de pobreza en el mundo. Que en América Latina el 80 por ciento de los afrodescendientes vive en condiciones de pobreza, lo que significa 150 millones de personas, y que un 72 por ciento es analfabeta".
En ese contexto, el caso suyo y el de su familia es una excepción. Todos sus hermanos son profesionales, algunos con posgrados en Iowa y Pensilvania. Pero eso no significa que su vida haya sido fácil. La discriminación está ahí, a la vuelta de la esquina: "Lo mío ha sido una lucha constante. A los siete años ya me daba cuenta de que era diferente y que cuando me trataban de negra, siempre había un ánimo ofensivo detrás. Pero eso me hizo más fuerte. 'Sí, soy negra, pero puedo ser mejor que tú'. Fue como un mecanismo de defensa. Me acuerdo de que para los pololeos fui muy introvertida. Yo decía ¡quién se va fijar en mí si soy refea! Tenía metido eso de que el negro es feo, es malo, es hediondo, todo eso que la gente dice con tanta soltura. Pero terminé sobreponiéndome a eso. Las discriminaciones, en todo caso, siempre están, aunque sean muy sutiles o no toda la gente se dé cuenta. Por ejemplo, cuando fui madre, había gente que decía 'uy, mira, los hijos de la Sonia son blancos' o 'mira, qué blanquitos que le salieron', como si eso fuera una bendición. Yo no le agradezco a Dios por haber tenido hijos blancos, sino por haberme dado la posibilidad de ser madre".
Su hermana Olga, educadora de párvulos, también vivió con complejos: "A nosotros nos conocían como las Jackson Five, por nuestras melenas frondosas, como copa de árbol. Pero siempre me costó cultivar el look africano. Recién cuando entré a la universidad y gracias al consejo de un grupo de amigas, me decidí a usar el pelo largo, a identificarme visualmente con mis ancestros", cuenta.
La discriminación es una enfermedad tan fatigosa como el cáncer, porque se extiende sin permiso, de manera invisible y cuando alguien se da cuenta, suele ser demasiado tarde. "Imagino que todos los historiadores saben que Arica fue una de las zonas sureñas de Perú, que aquí había una importante cultura negra sostiene la alcaldesa de Camarones. Que al momento en que estalló la guerra, el 80 por ciento de la población ariqueña era negra. Nadie cuenta estas cosas en la historia de Chile. Es como si los negros nunca hubieran existido. Y después de la división, del plebiscito de 1925, ya no contamos como población negra para el primer censo. Desde entonces se consigna la condición de mestizo; con un lápiz se borró toda una cultura".
El otro valle negro
Cristián Báez anda por los 28 años y nadie diría que es descendiente de africanos. Tiene la piel morena, pero eso es un rasgo común en Arica. Claro que cuando cruza el umbral a uno le queda claro que no es un ariqueño más. "Compré esta quijada de burro por dos mil pesos en el matadero", dice, mientras avanza hacia el patio trasero de la casa. Allí lo espera un fogón y una olla que hierve encima de la parrilla. Con cuidado, deposita la quijada en ese hervidero y cuenta que compró otras cuatro. Al cabo de un par de horas, la quijada se habrá cocido como para que los dientes se suelten y pueden castañetear fruto de un golpe seco con la palma de la mano. "Es un instrumento que vamos a utilizar para los bailes de raíz africana que estamos preparando", acota.
Cristián Báez nieto de Francisca Ríos está trabajando en un proyecto del Fondart regional que pretende rescatar los bailes que realizaban en los carnavales los descendientes de africanos en la primera mitad del siglo veinte. A punta de tumbaderas, quijadas de burro y cajones, ensaya con un grupo de jóvenes las danzas que sus abuelos y bisabuelos practicaban. "Hay una en especial que nos gustaría rescatar y que se conoce como tumbe o lumbanga. Recibió este último nombre porque en Arica había un barrio que se llamaba así, Lumbanga, y que estaba lleno de boites y cantinas. Los que bajaban de Azapa iban al barrio de la Lumbanga a pasarlo bien. Eso después derivó en un dicho: 'Se armó la lumbanga', algo así como se armó la fiesta. Pero todo eso se perdió en Azapa", afirma Cristián.
Gracias a otro proyecto que ganó la Fundación Oro Negro, Cristián y otros dos miembros de la agrupación viajaron a Sama, que es un valle que corre paralelo a Azapa, pero en el sur de Perú. "Es la misma cultura que tenía Azapa. Lo que ocurre es que la mayoría de la gente que se asentó allá son personas que huyeron de aquí luego del plebiscito de 1925. Hay familias enteras que emigraron y que perdieron el contacto con las familias que quedaron acá. Los apellidos se repiten: los Baluarte, los Corvacho, los Ríos, los Salgado. Y quizás lo más llamativo de todo, sea que ese mundo afro no tiene nada que ver con el que se vive en Lima y en el norte de Perú, sino que está hermanado con las costumbres y las tradiciones que acá existían. Es lo que queremos recuperar".
Existe otra situación latente, escamoteada, que les parte el alma: hubo abuelos que tuvieron que agarrar sus cosas y mandarse a cambiar en los días previos a ese plebiscito de 1925. Una cuota de horror importante de la que el resto del país no tiene mucha idea.
En las semanas previas al plebiscito de 1925, se cometieron muchas violaciones a los derechos humanos cuenta Cristián. La intención era sacar de Arica a la mayor cantidad de peruanos como una forma de asegurar el triunfo en favor de Chile. La gente del valle de Sama cuenta que las casas eran marcadas con cruces rojas y que si eso pasaba, tenías que huir porque si no lo hacías al otro día te mataban. Y de eso no hay ningún registro en la historia de Chile. Nadie se ha preocupado de los abusos que se cometieron en ese entonces. Hay gente de ochentaitantos años que recuerda cómo tuvieron que arrancar. Una mujer nos contó que tiene viva la imagen de estar escondida bajo un platanal, llorando, mientras su madre le decía que se pusiera a rezar porque venían los chilenos. Y esto la anciana nos lo contaba llorando. Tenían que huir a pie, caminar kilómetros y kilómetros, y cuando los pillaba la noche, a los niños los enterraban con la cara descubierta para que soportaran el frío. Fue un éxodo súper doloroso y en ese éxodo se perdió buena parte de nuestra identidad.
Santiago también
Arica no es el único lugar donde existen negros. Hay otros, como el valle de Elqui, Quillota y el mismo Santiago, que, en siglos anteriores, funcionaron como centros en los que se comerciaban esclavos y donde, a pesar de las cruzas, esa presencia ha subsistido. "Existen lugares, como Palo de Gomes, en el valle de Azapa, donde la representación genética llega al 16 por ciento. También es alto el porcentaje en el valle de Elqui, donde bordea el 10 por ciento, y en algunos lugares de Santiago debería estar en el orden del 8 por ciento. Y en lo que era el barrio de La Chimba, lo que ahora es Recoleta e Independencia, ese porcentaje debe ser superior", afirma Francisco Rotthammer, director del programa de genética humana, de la Facultad de Medicina de la Universidad de Chile.
Rotthammer encabeza la investigación que busca determinar qué tan importante es la representación de los genes negroides en la población chilena. "Sobre este tema no se ha hecho casi nada. ¿Por qué? Tenemos la mala costumbre de tapar las cosas. Ocultar el maltrato que sufrió la población negra. Muchos eran mutilados para que no se arrancaran. Son cosas que como sociedad debemos asumir. Ellos hicieron una contribución importante a la defensa del territorio. Hubo batallones de africanos o de chilenos de origen africano que lucharon en el Ejército, a pesar de toda esta historia de maltratos. Hasta fueron discriminados por los indígenas. Cuando Caupolicán fue ejecutado, se indignó porque el verdugo era de origen africano. Para él morir a manos de un negro era un deshonor".
Rotthammer explica que la clasificación racial establecida por la antropología está determinada por una cantidad ínfima de genes. "Las diferencias entre un grupo de origen africano y uno europeo, o entre este y uno asiático, queda reducido al 0,3 por ciento de los genes de un individuo. Y esas diferencias no tienen que ver con que un grupo posea algunos genes y otro que no los posea, sino con la frecuencia con que estos aparecen. Ahora, asignarles características conductuales a estos grupos es una falacia absoluta, además de caldo de cultivo para el racismo".
Si bien las investigaciones son preliminares, Rotthammer estima que el porcentaje de genes negroides es mucho más alto de lo que el común de la gente cree. Y, aunque en Santiago, a diferencia de lo que ocurre en Arica, sea difícil hallar individuos que manifiesten todas las características de los grupos de origen africano, no cabe duda de que esa presencia está latente.
Thank you, Omar. That is a very interesting account.
It tells the story of a region straddling the Chile-Peru border that has a high fraction of African-looking residents. It explains that the region was arbitraily split along a new border between the two nations consequent to a 19th century war. It tells how some of the residents are trying to establish an Afro-Latin ethnic self-identity and to re-create or rediscover African traditions.
The article explains that people of strongly African appearance were a large fraction of the overall population of Chile in the 18th century, a smaller fraction in the 19th century, and very few indeed today. It concludes by interviewing the head of the genetics department of the medical school at the University of Chile, who shows that Chile's African minority was genetically assimilated and that their genes are now dispersed throughout the general Chilean population.
It is an informative article. That Chile's Blacks underwent the same genetic assimilation through out-marriage as the African-looking residents of Argentina, Mexico, Spain and Portugal is not surprising. What is surprising is that the Chilean assimilation happened in the same time-frame (the 19th century) as the Argentinean assimilation. Mexico, Spain, and Portugal had absorbed heir Blacks ceturies earlier. It make you wonder why it took so much longer in Argentina and Chile.
Well, I should have check the site were that article was published
However, I checked the contain and it looked precise to me. They cite the work of a person who does not seem to be Neonazi.
In any case. The history of Blacks in Chile is tought in Schools. We know there existed some Blacks in our country. We also know they were the cause of stopping slave trade immediately after independence. Perhaps they were the reason of the politics of "whitening" that was in action during the whole 19th century.
Black population does not exist in Chile at all at these days. It was never numerous and genetic research has show a overwelming dominance of European and Native genetics. Blacks genetics, if any, could come from Arabs, Jews, Spaniards or Italians, more likely that from former slaves. Unlike the U.S., precise genetics studies have been done already in Chile.
And Neonazis in Chile exist. They are numerous. There are lots of common Chileans (euro-indians by blood) that are more racist than pure Nordics.
Have you ever hear about "Surdics" and the connection with Nazi Germany?
Posted: Mon 05 Sep 2005 00:06 Post subject: Re: NEONAZIS AND THE MISSING LINK
oevega wrote:
However, I checked the contain and it looked precise to me. They cite the work of a person who does not seem to be Neonazi.
Oh, I agree completely. It was an interesting article and its accuracy seemed worthy of our confidence. For one thing, its tale matches the history of Argentina and (earlier in time) Mexico and Iberia. For another, what the head of the genetics department at the U of Chile's medical school said matches what we know from other sources. It was simply strange that neo-Nazis would be interested in this topic.
oevega wrote:
Have you ever hear about "Surdics" and the connection with Nazi Germany?
No. I would be interested in learning about them, however. (You are not talking about left-handed people, I assume. <grin>)
Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1082 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Tue 06 Sep 2005 15:36 Post subject: RE:
Frank wrote:
That Chile's Blacks underwent the same genetic assimilation through out-marriage as the African-looking residents of Argentina, Mexico, Spain and Portugal is not surprising.
Of course, to these countries must be added Britain, Holland, France, Germany, Italy (both ancient and more recent), and Greece (ancient).
A huge encyclopaedia (whose title eludes me at the moment, but I own it) on Africans in the world mentions that tens of thousands of Black Africans were present in British cities in the 1500-1800's, and were absorbed into the white working classes. Besides the Sykes study, others studies have found sub-Saharan DNA in Brits. I'll try to find them later.
As I've mentioned before, one study stated that it is not uncommon to find, in the same phenotypically white male, a Negroid Y-chromosome and an Asian mtDNA.
I have already posted studies which have found sub-Saharan DNA in Italy and Sicily, and other studies exist which have found this in Sardinians and Corsicans, as well as Frenchmen.
Much of this African absorption certainly occurred during the slave-trading era. However, in Italy and Greece, and North Africa and the Near East, the absorption of Blacks also certainly occurred in ancient times, and caused no emotional stir. I have read two excellent books on this very subject, both from the pen of Frank Snowden: Blacks in Antiquity, and Before Color Prejudice. Snowden's findings are corroborated by genetic studies, which have found sub-Saharan mtDNA sequences and sickle-cell throughout the Mediterranean. Snowden also wrote two articles in the 1940's: The Negro in Ancient Greece, and The Negro in Classical Italy.
Black-white sexual relations were never the cause of great emotional crises and many blacks were physically assimilated into the predominantly white populations of the Mediterranean world.
Quote:
Arielle P. Kozloff, "Companion of Dionysus," [1] in a discussion of a fifth- century BC Janiform vase in the shape of Negro and satyr heads, points out that "first it would be helpful to understand what the Greeks knew of black people," observes, inter alia, that Greek mercenaries in Egypt had seen black Africans in great numbers, and comments on the number of references to Ethiopians in Greek literature of the fifth century BC, on the appearance of mulatto children following the presence of blacks in Greece in the army of Xerxes, and on the many artistic representations of the mid- and late-fifth century BC reflecting this anthropological evolution.
My point is that Iberia is not alone in Europe in terms of having absorbed Blacks. Most of us, of course, already know this; but I feel the need to keep the record straight for new readers.
Posted: Tue 06 Sep 2005 16:36 Post subject: Re: RE:
William wrote:
Of course, to these countries [that genetically assimilated African-born populations] must be added Britain, Holland, France, Germany, Italy (both ancient and more recent), and Greece (ancient). ... My point is that Iberia is not alone in Europe in terms of having absorbed Blacks.
A very good point. A drawback of being a hammer is that everything looks to you like a nail. My own specialty is in the U.S. color line as compared with Iberian traditions, so I sometimes neglect to mention other widespread assimilation in Europe. Thanks for pointing it out.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Tue 06 Sep 2005 19:23 Post subject: ASIMILATION
fwsweet wrote:
William wrote:
Of course, to these countries [that genetically assimilated African-born populations] must be added Britain, Holland, France, Germany, Italy (both ancient and more recent), and Greece (ancient). ... My point is that Iberia is not alone in Europe in terms of having absorbed Blacks.
A very good point. A drawback of being a hammer is that everything looks to you like a nail. My own specialty is in the U.S. color line as compared with Iberian traditions, so I sometimes neglect to mention other widespread assimilation in Europe. Thanks for pointing it out.
Hi,
I believe assimilation is a widespread. However, this has happened with several different races and not only Blacks and Europeans. Asians, for example have contributed with more than 10% of European DNA, if I am not wrong. China assimilated lots of whites as well from ancient times.
Africa itself has received a large number of white immigrants and also Asians (Madagascar).
In Latin America as a whole the most massive assimilation was the one of the Indians. To me it seems peoples' outside Latin America are not interested in those events, indeed.
In the case of Chile, there were Blacks in the country, but the numbers were very small. That's why our public works were done by prisoners. In here the regime was the Hacienda which is, in other terms, a social structure to exploit free peasants, specially Indians but also Europeans.
However, even with such a small population, there were some interesting characters in here. For example, Jose Gil de Castro, called the "Mullato" Gil, was a Peruvian painter that make the most outstanding pictures of the Chilean upper class of the Independence times.
The error in Omar's many claims is that he always argues from a strawman base: Afrodescent people are not legit because they are trying to claim to be either African or Black.
The fact is many people who are of mixed ancestry are still aware of their African ancestry and still have a sense of identity because of it. For whatever reason, many times discrimination or bigoted comments through out their lives they are never made to feel they are just another person of the mainstream. There are many Afrodescent people who no longer even know they arer Afrodescent or they really don't see it as relevant to their identity. But there are others that do.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Sun 02 Jul 2006 20:11 Post subject: Afro once again.
Salsassin wrote:
The error in Omar's many claims is that he always argues from a strawman base: Afrodescent people are not legit because they are trying to claim to be either African or Black.
Strawman!
You are putting words I have not say.
What I say is the following:
(1) There are people that descend of Blacks in Chile? Yes, there are. Like anywhere in the world, including Japan.
(2) Were Africans numerous in Chile? No, they were not. And they were not because in Chile did not exists the plantation regime of explotation. Plantations existed in the Caribbean, Peru, Colombia, Ecuador, Brazil, the U.S. and some other places, and they used African labour for that.
In Chile existed the Hacienda and the Repartimientos, which were bassed in European and Indian peasants.
(3) Are the people of Azapa African? Of course they aren't. They are mixed individuals where more than 90% of the genetics and 99% of their culture is mainstream.
(4) Are the people of Azapa Afrodescendents?
If that means they descend of a Black person why should I doubt it?
(5) Does the people of Azapa carry African traditions?
I doubt it.
They might have certain Peruvian traditions before the War of the Pacific, but beyond that I really doubt it. After all, the brain washing politics of the Hispanic societies were very strong. I believe what they might carry is some Afro-Peruvian folkloric patterns, music and traditions.
(6) Is theirs Afrodescendent part predominant in theirs? Actually no. Most of the "genetics" of those people is Hispanic, Native or Chinese. They just got "drops" of Black ascendency, if any. Some of those drops can even be imaginary. In some way they look like the white man that dress like Indian in certain Pow-Hows in the U.S. In this case we are talking about Afrowannabes, I would say.
(7) Do they got the right to celebrate theirs unique heritage?
They do. Why not?
(7) Do they got the right to tell us we Chileans are hidding a mysterious heritage?
No, they don't ! We, mainstream Chileans, have our history and we know it, and that one was already writen.
(10) Do they need I special status?
I believe not. After all, Chile is plenty of minorities more numerous that theirs. And they don't even look different from the rest of the population.
They are not indigenous people, like our Mapuches, Aymaras, Easter Islanders or Yagans, and they will never be considered indigenous, because they don't match the requirements.
So, they will have to find a place between our minorities. They should enter the line like any other Chilean with same ethnic background. Yes, after Italians, Germans, Jews, Palestineans, French, British, Americans, Argentineans, Peruvians, Koreans, Brazilians, Cubans, Gypsies from Romania, etc., all of which are larger minorities in here.
If they are not just dreamming (or playing games of Afrowannabes), they are nothing else than a minority more. And they aren't nothing particularly special for Chile and Chilean Identity.
Posted: Mon 03 Jul 2006 00:27 Post subject: Re: Afro once again.
oevega wrote:
Salsassin wrote:
The error in Omar's many claims is that he always argues from a strawman base: Afrodescent people are not legit because they are trying to claim to be either African or Black.
Strawman!
You are putting words I have not say.
Oh please Omar, don't make me show you the fool with tons of quotes.
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(1) There are people that descend of Blacks in Chile? Yes, there are. Like anywhere in the world, including Japan.
But there is an Afrocommunity and history in Arica.
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(2) Were Africans numerous in Chile? No, they were not. And they were not because in Chile did not exists the plantation regime of explotation. Plantations existed in the Caribbean, Peru, Colombia, Ecuador, Brazil, the U.S. and some other places, and they used African labour for that.
And Arica was a part of Peru. So Chile inherited the Peruvian culture there.
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(3) Are the people of Azapa African? Of course they aren't. They are mixed individuals where more than 90% of the genetics and 99% of their culture is mainstream.
Feel free to show the sources of your claims.
And again the very strawman you claim you do not use. You claim they are not African. NO ONE HAS CLAIMED THEY ARE.
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(4) Are the people of Azapa Afrodescendents?
If that means they descend of a Black person why should I doubt it?
Try African people.
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(5) Does the people of Azapa carry African traditions?
I doubt it.
They might have certain Peruvian traditions before the War of the Pacific, but beyond that I really doubt it. After all, the brain washing politics of the Hispanic societies were very strong. I believe what they might carry is some Afro-Peruvian folkloric patterns, music and traditions.
AfroPeruvian. Afrodescent traditions. Cause no one claimed they were African. Keep going strawman king.
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(6) Is theirs Afrodescendent part predominant in theirs? Actually no. Most of the "genetics" of those people is Hispanic, Native or Chinese. They just got "drops" of Black ascendency, if any. Some of those drops can even be imaginary. In some way they look like the white man that dress like Indian in certain Pow-Hows in the U.S. In this case we are talking about Afrowannabes, I would say.
Again, evidence.
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(7) Do they got the right to celebrate theirs unique heritage?
They do. Why not?
Seems to me you have a problem with it.
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(7) Do they got the right to tell us we Chileans are hidding a mysterious heritage? No, they don't ! We, mainstream Chileans, have our history and we know it, and that one was already writen.
And you wrote out those parts that came from Afrodescent peoples, like the Cueca.
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(10) Do they need I special status?
I believe not. After all, Chile is plenty of minorities more numerous that theirs. And they don't even look different from the rest of the population.
They are not indigenous people, like our Mapuches, Aymaras, Easter Islanders or Yagans, and they will never be considered indigenous, because they don't match the requirements.
Feel free to show me where they claimed to be indigenous.
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So, they will have to find a place between our minorities. They should enter the line like any other Chilean with same ethnic background. Yes, after Italians, Germans, Jews, Palestineans, French, British, Americans, Argentineans, Peruvians, Koreans, Brazilians, Cubans, Gypsies from Romania, etc., all of which are larger minorities in here.
And you show me how all those groups have been discriminated against.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Mon 03 Jul 2006 14:28 Post subject: Re: Afro once again.
Salsassin wrote:
...
Quote:
(1) There are people that descend of Blacks in Chile? Yes, there are. Like anywhere in the world, including Japan.
But there is an Afrocommunity and history in Arica.
Could you please explain me what is Salsassin definition of an "Afrocommunity"?
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And Arica was a part of Peru. So Chile inherited the Peruvian culture there.
Yes, In part. Remember that Arica was recolonized. However, we still have large communities of Peruvian and Bolivian descendents and Chineses in that part of the country. The best, for us, is that we have the Aymaraes and pre-contact cultures of that region us well.
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(3) Are the people of Azapa African? Of course they aren't. They are mixed individuals where more than 90% of the genetics and 99% of their culture is mainstream.
Feel free to show the sources of your claims.
And again the very strawman you claim you do not use. You claim they are not African. NO ONE HAS CLAIMED THEY ARE.
Then we agree! They are not Black people, but people that might have an African ancestor down the line.
From our point of view they are just average Chileans.
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(4) Are the people of Azapa Afrodescendents?
If that means they descend of a Black person why should I doubt it?
Try African people.
African people is the one that live in Africa under an African culture. Well, at least you have a more comprehensive definition
Quote:
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(5) Does the people of Azapa carry African traditions?
I doubt it.
They might have certain Peruvian traditions before the War of the Pacific, but beyond that I really doubt it. After all, the brain washing politics of the Hispanic societies were very strong. I believe what they might carry is some Afro-Peruvian folkloric patterns, music and traditions.
AfroPeruvian. Afrodescent traditions.
Do you see? Why they are not proud of theirs Peruvian heritage, and rather chose the label "African".
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Cause no one claimed they were African.
Then why they call themselves African? They should call themselves Peruvian descendents. That would have a chance to have a more legitimate and broader support. Don't you see it?
Quote:
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(6) Is theirs Afrodescendent part predominant in theirs? Actually no. Most of the "genetics" of those people is Hispanic, Native or Chinese. They just got "drops" of Black ascendency, if any. Some of those drops can even be imaginary. In some way they look like the white man that dress like Indian in certain Pow-Hows in the U.S. In this case we are talking about Afrowannabes, I would say.
Again, evidence.
They have to show the evidence of something they claim. They have to convince, not us.
Quote:
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(7) Do they got the right to celebrate theirs unique heritage?
They do. Why not?
Seems to me you have a problem with it.
Actually I have not. It can even be good for tourism. Many people could come here looking for roots and some would even be convinced.
Quote:
Quote:
(7) Do they got the right to tell us we Chileans are hidding a mysterious heritage? No, they don't ! We, mainstream Chileans, have our history and we know it, and that one was already writen.
And you wrote out those parts that came from Afrodescent peoples, like the Cueca.
Again the famous Cueca. To tell you the truth, I preffer the Andes Music and I am not Bolivian
Quote:
Quote:
(10) Do they need I special status?
I believe not. After all, Chile is plenty of minorities more numerous that theirs. And they don't even look different from the rest of the population.
They are not indigenous people, like our Mapuches, Aymaras, Easter Islanders or Yagans, and they will never be considered indigenous, because they don't match the requirements.
Feel free to show me where they claimed to be indigenous.
They are lobbing with indigenous groups. They have appeared in indigenous magazines.
Quote:
Quote:
So, they will have to find a place between our minorities. They should enter the line like any other Chilean with same ethnic background. Yes, after Italians, Germans, Jews, Palestineans, French, British, Americans, Argentineans, Peruvians, Koreans, Brazilians, Cubans, Gypsies from Romania, etc., all of which are larger minorities in here.
And you show me how all those groups have been discriminated against.
Discriminated? I don't think so. When in Rome do as Romans do. If they addapt to us, no problem. Besides, in the case of "afro" people, they look exactly like common chileans, so how come they are going to be discriminated.
Posted: Mon 03 Jul 2006 17:10 Post subject: Re: Afro once again.
oevega wrote:
I finally found the actual number of Black persons in Arica, Chile. There are less than 100 individuals all living in Arica, in the frontier with Peru.
100 people is less than the population of Russians in Chile. LOL
I guess ethnic groups in the Amazon that can sometimes be less than 50 don't count then.
Quote:
Could you please explain me what is Salsassin definition of an "Afrocommunity"?
A community that has a sense of identity based on their common Afrodecent.
Quote:
Yes, In part. Remember that Arica was recolonized. However, we still have large communities of Peruvian and Bolivian descendents and Chineses in that part of the country. The best, for us, is that we have the Aymaraes and pre-contact cultures of that region us well.
Yes, and thus those cultures become Chilean. Including the AfroPeruvian ones.
Quote:
Then we agree! They are not Black people, but people that might have an African ancestor down the line.
From our point of view they are just average Chileans.
Wrong. The average Chilean does not have African Ancestry, has no ancestors that were discriminated because of that ancestry, and do not have a sense that part of their ancestry came fro Africa.
Quote:
Quote:
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(4) Are the people of Azapa Afrodescendents?
If that means they descend of a Black person why should I doubt it?
Try African people.
African people is the one that live in Africa under an African culture. Well, at least you have a more comprehensive definition
Nice try. Let me simplify it for you.
You said:
If that means they descend of a Black person...
I said:
Try African people.
Translation, do a simple substitution.
If that means they descend of an African people...
As in not just one lone ancestor, but a group of African people brought to this continent.
Quote:
Quote:
AfroPeruvian. Afrodescent traditions.
Do you see? Why they are not proud of theirs Peruvian heritage, and rather chose the label "African".
Feel free to show where they claim African. Again a strawman. They claim an Afrodescent culture. Now they are Chilean so it is AfroChilean.
Quote:
Then why they call themselves African? They should call themselves Peruvian descendents. That would have a chance to have a more legitimate and broader support. Don't you see it?
They say they are of AfroPeruvian decent. But they have been Chileanized, but their ancestry and phenotypes still played a role in how others saw themselves, thus AfroChilenos.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
(6) Is theirs Afrodescendent part predominant in theirs? Actually no. Most of the "genetics" of those people is Hispanic, Native or Chinese. They just got "drops" of Black ascendency, if any. Some of those drops can even be imaginary. In some way they look like the white man that dress like Indian in certain Pow-Hows in the U.S. In this case we are talking about Afrowannabes, I would say.
Again, evidence.
They have to show the evidence of something they claim. They have to convince, not us.
Wrong. You made the claim on this board, it is up to you to provide the evidence.
Quote:
Again the famous Cueca. To tell you the truth, I preffer the Andes Music and I am not Bolivian
And your preferences do not change the fact that it is an AfroChilean dance. Afrodecent and modified by CHileans to make it uniquely their own.
Quote:
They are lobbing with indigenous groups. They have appeared in indigenous magazines.
That is not evidence, that is assumption. They may be writing in those magazines because indigenous groups are the ones who have the closest understanding of what it is to be discriminated in Chile.
Quote:
Discriminated? I don't think so. When in Rome do as Romans do. If they addapt to us, no problem. Besides, in the case of "afro" people, they look exactly like common chileans, so how come they are going to be discriminated. Omar
Sorry, to tell you, but plenty of AferoChilenos do not look like average Chileans, and the others know indirect discrimination when they see their families ridiculed.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Mon 03 Jul 2006 17:36 Post subject: Re: Afro once again.
Salsassin wrote:
...
I guess ethnic groups in the Amazon that can sometimes be less than 50 don't count then.
And what? They are real. Not pretenders
Quote:
A community that has a sense of identity based on their common Afrodecent.
Jesus Jaime (not Jorge) we are getting quite Bizantine aren't we?
Quote:
Yes, and thus those cultures become Chilean. Including the AfroPeruvian ones.
We made sure they become Chileans. Actually they are more nationalistic people than the rest.
Quote:
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Then we agree! They are not Black people, but people that might have an African ancestor down the line.
From our point of view they are just average Chileans.
Wrong. The average Chilean does not have African Ancestry, has no ancestors that were discriminated because of that ancestry, and do not have a sense that part of their ancestry came fro Africa.
How come you can discriminate someone that look EXACTLY the same as the rest of the people? Weird.
Quote:
...African people is the one that live in Africa under an African culture. Well, at least you have a more comprehensive definition
You need to add "IN AFRICA". Otherwise is not African. period.
Quote:
If that means they descend of an African people...
So what? We have descendents of Russians in here but we don't have a Russian culture. You dream Salsassin.
Quote:
Feel free to show where they claim African. Again a strawman. They claim an Afrodescent culture. Now they are Chilean so it is AfroChilean.
We have also followers of Krishna in here.
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They say they are of AfroPeruvian decent. But they have been Chileanized, but their ancestry and phenotypes still played a role in how others saw themselves, thus AfroChilenos.
What phenotypes, Salssasin, most of them look more Chileans than the beans.
Quote:
Wrong. You made the claim on this board, it is up to you to provide the evidence.
And you, Salssasin, how many claims per hour you do?
Quote:
And your preferences do not change the fact that it is an AfroChilean dance. Afrodecent and modified by CHileans to make it uniquely their own.
Yes, Cueca is as Afrochilean like the Reggae.
Nop. Cueca is the music of the countrypeople of my country. Perhaps some rythm came from abroad but who cares about that.
Quote:
Sorry, to tell you, but plenty of AferoChilenos do not look like average Chileans, and the others know indirect discrimination when they see their families ridiculed.
I don't know what are the "AferoChilenos". I have seen not a single one in my life.
Posted: Mon 03 Jul 2006 18:37 Post subject: Re: Afro once again.
oevega wrote:
Nice try. Lack of discrimination of people of Russian decnet allowed for a more cmplete assimilation.
An ethnicity is based on DISCRIMINATION?
so only DISCRIMINATED people have and identity?[/quote]
Nice try mister strawman. Ethnicity is based on common experience. But assimilation is hindered either by self separatism, discrimination or both.
Quote:
PROVE IT. I DEMAND IT. PROVE IT you STRAWMAN.
Las coplas, música y baile de la marinera limeña provienen de la Zamacueca, danza intensamente bailada en el siglo XIX. Sin embargo, es Abelardo Gamarra, El Tunante, quien propone, luego de la guerra con Chile, un cambio en el nombre, ya que se le conocía también como "chilena".
La zamacueca da lugar a la zamba argentina, la cueca boliviana, argentina y chilena, y a la marinera limeña.
La zamacueca es un estilo musical peruano y un baile de pareja suelta, en el que se representa el asedio amoroso de una mujer por un hombre.
El origen de la zamacueca es peruano. Nace en Lima durante los siglos XVI y XVII, en el virreinato entre los barrios del Rímac y las fiestas de los Barrios Altos, los barrios del Callao y los bares ubicados entre los puentes, callejones y balcones limeños.
El ritmo y ejecución de la zamacueca limeña nace entre los diferentes grupos étnicos que habitaron durante el virreinato en Lima, pues en su mayoría eran esclavos africanos (el mismo nombre zamacueca proviene de idiomas del centro de África [ver tango]), mulatos, indígenas mestizos, españoles, moriscos, gitanos y sefardíes.
Wikipedia
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(For the reasonable people in the list: Cueca was imported in the 18th to Chile. The War of the Pacific started at the end of the 19th century!!!!
Still the same peoples Afroperuvians. And some of them became AfroChileans.
'
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