Posted: Tue 08 Jul 2008 11:26 Post subject: Re: Queen Charlotte
oevega wrote:
ROdomJr wrote:
...on about ancient Africa Moorish who ruled in Europe once and my favorite English peot & drama writer, Williams Shakespear describled the dark-skinned English as "Moro" or "Moor" because "Negro" was not even exist at that time! ... Roosevelt D. Odom, Jr.
Hi,
Well, I guess Queen Elizabeth II would have had problems in the South of the 60s. According to the one-drop rule she is Black. Actually, I am studying her picture and I found it is likely
The Moors or Moros were not really Blacks but Berbers and Arabs. They are the ones that ruled Portugal, Spain and southern Italy. Most Moors rulers were not dark skinned at all, and the last one was not, and he could be confussed with a German. It is too bad Black Americans are so badly informed.
However, the Moors rulers (like any Muslim ruler) have slaves of all colors, including Blacks and Slaves, and sometimes mixed with them. So, it is not strange that a lady from Ghana, for example, could become the favorite of a Moor ruler.
Now, Queen Charlotte descend from Margarita de Castro y Sousa, a 15th century noblewomen. Margarita was descendent of Alfonso III and his mistress Mourana Gil, who was described as dark skinned African.
The curious thing is that all Northern European nobility is descendent in part from Mourana Gil. So, according again to that ridiculous one-drop rule, instead of blue blood they have black blood. Well, seriously, all we know there is just one color of blood: red.
Regards,
Omar Vega
Dear Friends,
I was looking for new portraits of Charlotte Sophie on the web when I stumbled on these postings.
As you may know inventions sometimes come about by accident. Like a unsespecting housewife chucking two chemicals together and voila...she discovered a new source of cheap energy or a medicine against ageing or whatever.
So without realizing it you have made a connection between 'Bleu Blood' and 'Black Blood.'
This is what I have found after three years of research. When you concentrate on personal descriptions and then look for portraits, you will find many famous, elite, historical Europeans were described as 'black, brown, swarthy, not the white hands, basané (dark brown), chimney sweep. I'm talking barons and counts and such, as well as kings and queens. But they were painted as white, with blond hair. King Charles II Stuart of Britain was named The Black Boy, and described on a wanted poster issued by parliament als 'A tall Black man.' There are engravings which indeed show a intensely black man. The site of the National Potrait Gallery shows, beside the white fakes, also these black portraits of him and his family. "NPG king Charles.'
About the Moors. If you study European paintings and jewellery from 1500-1789 you will find many pieces showing a classical African, a pitch black boy or man or even a king, and these are known als Moors. You will find them placed central to the action or in intimate contact with the whitened sitter. The Moor is the symbol for Bleu Blood, and the sitter informs us that he belongs to the nobility. Look for Madame de Kerouaille with a little Moor.
So we don't have to fight endlessly about what Moors looked like, for the nobility shows us what they considered their ancestors. I guess they were descendents from the Franks, which originated with the Nubians, Iranians and Anatoliens, brought to Europe to fight the Germanic nations by Caesar and remained, finding their own communities and keeping the color alive.
We are talking about a intermarrying, fixed mulatto race with some members who looked more African, or Asian or white, but shared a black identity. They saw themselves as superior and I compare the period from 1500-1789 as Reversed Apartheid which began with the Renaissance and ended with the French Revolution. We don't know about this because we are shown whitened, fake portraits of the Black and coloured European elite.
I have a lot more to inform this forum, if you like.
Posted: Tue 08 Jul 2008 11:33 Post subject: Madame de Kerouaille and a little Moor
MADAME DE KEROUAILLE
There are better copies to be found in google. It shows that Madame de Kerouaille, a mistress of Charles II Stuart was of noble birth and had 'Bleu Blood', symbolised by the little Moor beside her, who offers her pearls and coral.
Egmond Codfried
The Netherlands
Last edited by Egmond Codfried on Tue 08 Jul 2008 11:49; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Tue 08 Jul 2008 11:48 Post subject: King charles II Stuart, The Black Boy
Charles II Stuart, King of England, named The Black Boy
This is not one of the 'blackest' portraits I have identified, as the blackest ones are being put out of easy reach by people who do not want these simple thruths to come out!
William I, Prince of Orange (1533-1584), founder of the Dutch dynasty.
Was described as 'Brown of complexion and the beard' and 'More brown then white.' (Van Beresteyn 1933)
Many prints, like this one, show a dark skinned person, member of a fixed mulatto race. Many portraits of him, his family and partners show great variety. Here he looks more Asian, but there are others where we has thick lips and subnasal prognasty, and/or curly hair; treats connected to Classical Africans.
All the painted portraits which are regarded as primary sources show a white man, and are considered whitened or half-whitened fakes by me. Many prints are to be found in books, Het Iconografisch Bureau at The Hague, and not on the web as yet. They are collected and kept, but not studied or discussed. Perhaps because suggesting that some present Dutch person descends from Blacks and coloured's is even today seen as an insult!
Only a skeletal examination would let us know for sure. LOL
I doubt it. Craniofacial anthropometry shows that everybody from the Mediterranean coast southwards to (and including) Senegambia, Chad, Burkina Faso, Somalia, and Ethiopia are true "Caucasians."
Only a skeletal examination would let us know for sure. LOL
I doubt it. craniofacial anthropometry shows that everybody from the Mediterranean coast south to (and including) Chad, Burkina Faso, Somalia, and Ethiopia are true "Caucasians."
Skeletons also hold DNA Frank. So ancestry could be looked at.
But as to his claims as to what their features really might have looked like versus the portrait, the crania could tell us if there was Plattyrhine features, for example. They could even possible tell us something about the skin tone, based on some osseous dna studies I have read about.
Dont know if I buy this whole Bleu meant Black blood claim. In fact, it might have been quite the opposite according to other claims:
Quote:
This expression is said to have originated in Spain to differentiate people with very pale skin (i.e., European) from those with Moorish or Jewish ancestory. For people with pale complexions, blood vessals appear to have a blue tint.
Quote:
blue blood
NOUN: 1. Noble or aristocratic descent. 2. A member of the aristocracy.
ETYMOLOGY: Translation of Spanish sangre azul : sangre, blood + azul, blue (probably from the visible veins of fair-complexioned aristocrats).
Skeletons also hold DNA Frank. So ancestry could be looked at.
If sub-saharan (as opposed to north African) markers were found, it would certainly be persuasive.
Salsassin wrote:
the crania could tell us if there was Plattyrhine features, for example.
That was precisely my point. According to the craniofacial studies, most of the natives from the Mediterranean coast southwards to (and including) Senegambia, Chad, Burkina Faso, Somalia, and Ethiopia have narrow noses. Finding narrow-nosed skulls does not tell us much.
Salsassin wrote:
They could even possible tell us something about the skin tone, based on some osseous dna studies I have read about.
Now, that would be interesting. Do you have a citation or a link?
Skeletons also hold DNA Frank. So ancestry could be looked at.
If sub-saharan (as opposed to north African) markers were found, it would certainly be persuasive.
Salsassin wrote:
the crania could tell us if there was Plattyrhine features, for example.
That was precisely my point. According to the craniofacial studies, most of the natives from the Mediterranean coast southwards to (and including) Senegambia, Chad, Burkina Faso, Somalia, and Ethiopia have narrow noses. Finding narrow-nosed skulls does not tell us much.
True, but our new member seems to think there were definite traits like prognathism that are being falsified in the pictures:
Quote:
Here he looks more Asian, but there are others where we has thick lips and subnasal prognasty, and/or curly hair; treats connected to Classical Africans.
I'm just stating that the cranium could show us prognathism, nasal variety, or lack thereof.
I highly doubt having a black servant is a secret indication of having African Ancestry.
Quote:
Salsassin wrote:
They could even possible tell us something about the skin tone, based on some osseous dna studies I have read about.
Now, that would be interesting. Do you have a citation or a link?
Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1057 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Tue 08 Jul 2008 16:19 Post subject:
Jaime wrote:
I highly doubt having a black servant is a secret indication of having African Ancestry.
I'm a bit skeptical of this, myself. Plus, eyeballing someone is not always a sure-fire way to determine admixture. Platyrrhiny, dark skin, and even prognathism don't necessarily indicate sub-Saharan admixture. That said, there are indeed studies that show sub-Saharan admixture in the Dutch, and history does tell of sub-Saharans (and others, such as Malaysians, etc.) living in Holland and intermarrying with the native Dutch. One study I have at home (a forensics study, I think) mentions that it is not uncommon to find in the Netherlands an Asian Y-chromosome and sub-Saharan mtDNA in the same phenotypically European male.
I highly doubt having a black servant is a secret indication of having African Ancestry.
I'm a bit skeptical of this, myself. Plus, eyeballing someone is not always a sure-fire way to determine admixture. Platyrrhiny, dark skin, and even prognathism don't necessarily indicate sub-Saharan admixture. That said, there are indeed studies that show sub-Saharan admixture in the Dutch, and history does tell of sub-Saharans (and others, such as Malaysians, etc.) living in Holland and intermarrying with the native Dutch. One study I have at home (a forensics study, I think) mentions that it is not uncommon to find in the Netherlands an Asian Y-chromosome and sub-Saharan mtDNA in the same phenotypically European male.
Oh I agree. But I would look for more historical records, like the presence of trade, a marriage document, Roman legions, what not. Not a claim of Blue Blood or description of blackness which indicated swarthiness in medieval times, etc. And of course, DNA.
I'm happy to have set things in motion, but keep it real and understandable. Important to understand is that we are dealing with a 'fixed mulatto race.' Some were very black skinned, others less so. This is hard to tell from the portraits as I find a lot of variation showing the same person.
So I stick to the personal description and imagine, just as today, that light skinned children do not abandon their parents and family to live among the light skinned. It's about identity, and this is seperate from skintone. Mulattoes come in all shapes and forms, as Africans do, and some have 'white' features and no flat noses or prognastic lips. They still are Black.
The whole idea of looking for Black blood among historical persons began when the 'one drop rule' was formulated by American scientist. People like J.A. Rogers went to Europe to discover that persons in the European nobility displayed African features. Yet they were rulers, writers, civilized people and not smelly savages, ugly, decease ridden, childlike and so on.
I have found that the people in control, who could order DNA test, or check the brown underpainting on many portraits which constitutes a seperate portrait of a brown person, are not interested. The nobility does not want it to be known they have Black blood.
There is one case which sparked my research of a baron Aarnout Joost van der Duyn van Maasdam (1718-1785), a high Dutch military leader from one of the oldest noble families. I found four descriptions about his brown black colour: a poem which celebrates his brown black colour, and assurances that the family is famous for their black/ swarthy colour. Yet the family only submitted a portrait of a blond bleu eyed man. His blood is scattered in all the other noble families who were more or less dark skinned already.
I fully realized that the little Moor was the symbol for Bleu Blood after I learned that hunting scenes and hunting attributes on paintings symbolise nobility, because only they were allowed to hunt. The word bleu is a eufemism for Black, as a black person could be nicknamed 'Bleu.' In Holland, Indonesians were revered to as Bleu.
The genealogies of these people show them to descended from other nobles. Alessandro de Medici or Leonardo da Vinci seem to be the few who had a servant mother.
Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1057 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Tue 08 Jul 2008 18:46 Post subject:
Salsassin wrote:
Sorry, I'm not seeing your "fixed mulato race" I'm going to have to request your sources that confirm your admixture claims.
I second that request. I would also like further clarification on the following points:
Egmond Codfried wrote:
Mulattoes come in all shapes and forms, as Africans do, and some have 'white' features and no flat noses or prognastic lips. They still are Black.
By whose definition are they "Black"? What exactly do you mean by "Black"?
Egmond Codfried wrote:
The whole idea of looking for Black blood among historical persons began when the 'one drop rule' was formulated by American scientist.
Please enlighten us as to which American scientist created the One-Drop Rule. And please give us proof that the One-Drop Rule is in existence in nations other than the U.S., if that is indeed what you are suggesting.
Egmond Codfried wrote:
People like J.A. Rogers went to Europe to discover that persons in the European nobility displayed African features. Yet they were rulers, writers, civilized people and not smelly savages, ugly, decease ridden, childlike and so on.
I am familiar with the work of J. A. Rogers. In fact, I have four of his books. J. A. Rogers does indeed give great examples of actual Afro-European mixing in many countries, and the overall historical background he gives about the presence of Africans in European society, and their subsequent absorption, is generally correct. But caution must be used when reading his descriptions (or the descriptions of those he is quoting) of people with supposed African features. You and I may not see any given individual in the same way. I may also think someone looks African in one instance, and not so in another. This sort of eyeballing is very subjective, and not even consistent in the same person.
I have read the whole canon of afrocentric research and then practiced those theories on The Netherlands. Unlike others, namely Alisson Blakely (Blacks in the Dutch World) I found it usefull to name names and show portraits in my book about Maria Jacoba van Goor (1687-1737) Isabelle de Charriere's (Belle van Zuylen) Black grandmother, as Snowden did in his Blacks in Antiquity. So anyone can decide if a portraits shows African or other etnicity and/or dark skin color.
[Maria Jacoba van Goor (1687-1737), a very rich regentclass Dutch woman. Some see African features. Her granddaughter mentions that she herself does not have the white hands, a eufemism for coloured skin.]
The whole idea of some Africans being white inspite of their black skin was shown by Rogers to be nonsense. Like if you really look at these Hamitic, Nilotic peoples and think: There goes a white man! Rogers mentions that such a person arriving at the New York airport would not be recognized or treated as a white man. Is Somalian model/actress Imam Bowie a white woman? Also Rogers has showed that the narrownosed/ thin lipped Hamidic type is not seperate from the more Classical African type. They are part from the same population, they intermarry and are not some elite among their more flatnosed brethren.
Rogers studied Arabs and found them to be 'a fixed mulatto race' descended from white mountain tribes and the black Chaldees. Until his time they were regarded by science as a seperate race. The more light skinned ones and the blackest ones were again part of the same family/population. They did not constitute a seperate groups and white looking ones were not a superior elite over the darker ones.
We are all Africans and white's should be considered part of 'a fixed albino race.' This 'Fixed mulatto European race' I have discovered and named show more recent infusions of Black blood or Asian blood. I have proven that persons who were described as black of skin were portraited as white, blond and bleu eyed. I have pairs of portraits which show the same person as black and as white. I will take some time to show these here.
The descriptions are strong evidence, and less likely to be hidden away. Dear James Boswell is described in a biography as swarthy. He calls himself Black, joking that his yet unborn illigetimate child should be called 'The Black Prince' as both the father and the mother are Black. He wrote that his niece Mrs Maasdam, Anna Margaretha van Aerssen is 'Black as chimney.' And her husband, baron van Maasdam, who I have mentioned in my second posting, 'chimney sweep.' Yet the portrait he ordered during his Grand Tour in Italy shows a rosy cheecked, fair man. He was a suitor to Belle van Zuylen (1740-1805) who tell's us about her self: 'She does not have the white hands, she knows it and even jokes about it, but this [skin color] is no joking matter.' (1764). The Van Aerssen family was the riches ennobled family in the Republic.
There are many admixtures who remain nameless and even if they are named you do not know what to expect. What would you people call a child of a (Asiatic) Indian and a African? In Surinam we call them dogla and they are usually mighty black skinned. We have half Indonesian/Africans, a unnamed mixture, who remind me of Australians and Papoea's. Then I have noticed that there are black skinned Brazilians with bright bleu eyes and Aboriginal children and adults with very black skin and amazingly blond hair. Are they to be considered white's? I do not believe so. So the same with all these interesting black and brown Europeans, who would never be considered White's today. They would be rejected for many positions the moment they would stick their black head in the door.
But again, I took me 250 pages for my next work to explain and show. I offer notes, sources and a bibliography.
Please show evidence that Arabs are a "fixed mulatto race" any more than most all populations of the world that show some degree of admixture. Arabs show a lot of female mediated gene flow from Arab slave trade. This does not mean all people of ancient Arab ancestry have that ancestry, nor that they are a "fixed mulatto race"
http://backintyme.com/admixture/richards02.pdf
Note that Yemen has the high rate, and the rest at about 10% with other non Arab Middle Eastern populations having less. Maybe involvement in the slave trade levels have to do with this.
So again, where is your evidence of a "fixed mulatto race" or that the people of Ur (Chaldees) were Black? And sorry William, but while some claims of JA Rogers are valid, others are way over the top. Tunnel vision research.
Europeans should be consider part of a "fixed albino race"? Yeah I can tell you won't be lasting long here.
Now dear, that does not sound very friendly after the nice welcome this site gave me.
Humanity started in East Africa and were presumably adapted to that environment, so they were brown. The ones who moved to the eqautor became black to protect them from the sun.
The ones who moved to Europe and other sunless regions lost their pigmentation as a adaption to their new environment.
If one takes time to read about albinism one finds 'Leaky Albinism' which sounds to me like the fenomena one finds with White people, say laying about and frolicking on a Spanish beach. There is some hair and iris colouring and some slight ability to make melanin, with people who have 'Leaky Albinism.'
So if all the many types of Albinism are put in one heap one ends up with "a intermarrying, fixed albino race.' No disrespect intended. Or do you still believe that god or whatever created Blacks and White's seperately?
Please show evidence that Arabs are a "fixed mulatto race" any more than most all populations of the world that show some degree of admixture. Arabs show a lot of female mediated gene flow from Arab slave trade. This does not mean all people of ancient Arab ancestry have that ancestry, nor that they are a "fixed mulatto race"
http://backintyme.com/admixture/richards02.pdf
Note that Yemen has the high rate, and the rest at about 10% with other non Arab Middle Eastern populations having less. Maybe involvement in the slave trade levels have to do with this.
So again, where is your evidence of a "fixed mulatto race" or that the people of Ur (Chaldees) were Black? And sorry William, but while some claims of JA Rogers are valid, others are way over the top. Tunnel vision research.
[Charlotte Sophie Mecklenburg's father]
Dear,
I'm following what is called the scientific method and I have to mention in my Introduction what others have written on these grave matter. So go and read your Rogers and slug it out with him. He found that the Arabs resembled the Latino's and we know that those are very much a mullato mixture.
Personally I like to think I have improved on Rogers, in some small ways. He did not seem to realize that noble, Black European persons were shown as White's. Or that Charlotte Sophie von Mecklenburg's family were all mulattotypes which more or less showed African features, no matter what fake portraits they show us. Her father looks quite thick lipped to me.
Some of Rogers findings I can not follow, though, as when he says that both Lenin and Joan Crawford had Black blood and (both their brother's) showed Black features.
But dear, if you are getting all hot and bothered by my revelations, you might want to skip this thread. American's, Bless their hearts, used to refer to Arabs as 'Sand Niggers.' Which is not very nice, but there you have it!
Egmond Codfried
Last edited by Egmond Codfried on Wed 09 Jul 2008 14:10; edited 1 time in total
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Roosevelt D. Odom, Jr.
