It is interesting to hear Mariah Carey's results:
55% European
32% Native American
9% East Asian
4% Sub-Saharan African
George Lopez was rather excited to point out that she had some "Latin" in her, and had to work a bit to get it out of her. It ends up that she has a great grandmother from Venezuela. I have no idea what he thinks that is supposed to tell us about her recent continental genetic ancestry.
Mariah states that her mother is "Irish" and that her father is "African American" from the Bronx and Harlem (I guess that means that it is bona fide somehow.) That she has 4% SSA ancestry indicates that her father must not have been even predominantly SSA. But it is apparently very important to Mariah to claim her "blackness" - something which she insists America imposes upon her by default (I can't imagine her having that problem on the 21st century but, hey, that's her perspective).
I have always wondered about the days of blood fractioning in the 19th century... that if someone was supposedly a quarter "black," for example, that it was supposed to mean that they had one "black" grandparent. But if that one "black" grandparent were not really 100% SSA, which has surely always been quite common in American history, then the supposed stated "fractions" would have OFTEN had to be WAY off. Surely, this must also ring true today when claims of ancestral fractions are made, whether by self or others.
On another note, it is stupefying how excessively Lopez, his celebrity guests and audience conflate the notion of genetic ancestry with the notion of ethnic culture groups, and without any consideration at all of class elements in defining groups.
It is interesting to hear Mariah Carey's results:
55% European
32% Native American
9% East Asian
4% Sub-Saharan African
I understood those numbers to be Lopez's own results, not Carey's. I do not recall that Carey's own admixture was even tested.
This is understandable, given Carey's own insistence that she is Black. Soledad O'Brien is another Euro-looking celebrity (not born into the A-A community) who has chosen to become insistently Black. And, judging by her most recent bookselling interviews, Bliss Broyard has done the same thing. More power to them. It must be hard to become a famous celebrity, and if joining an ethnopolitical community helps your career, go for it.
The odd thing to me was the celebrities' pairing of implied ridicule of the ODR, coupled with their repeated false claim that the ODR is the law of the land today. On the one hand, Lopez cavorted on stage as he claimed "I'm Black! I'm Black!," a falsehood which he clearly did not take seriously.
On the other hand, the celebrities solemnly informed the viewing audience that: (1) The ODR is current law and (2) It has been in effect since slavery. Not so. "Racial" membership today is legally decided based on whether local community leaders accept you. And the ODR first became statutory a half-century after slavery's end.
The question of whether to interpret blood fraction statutes as based on how many "legally Black" great-grandparents you had, versus how many 100-percent African great-grandparents, is one that several 19th-century courts grappled with. With one notable exception, they went with the second approach because the first leads to nonsensical infinite regress or recursion. The following is from pages 175-76 of Frank W. Sweet, Legal History of the Color Line: The Rise and Triumph of the One-Drop Rule (Palm Coast FL: Backintyme, 2005).
Quote:
The second problem with the rule of blood fraction was that such a rule is recursive. The concept of recursion or infinite regress is best explained with an example.
Whitmell Dempsey, Jr. of 1849 North Carolina was of European appearance, although some said that he had Black ancestry. Like many men of that place and time, he supplemented his family’s diet by shooting squirrels, rabbits, woodchucks, and such. In State v. Whitmell Dempsey, 1849 North Carolina, he was charged with violating Chapter 30 of the North Carolina act of 1840, which made it a misdemeanor for, “any free negro, mulatto, or free person of color, to carry about his person or keep in his house any shotgun or other arms, specified, unless he obtain a license from the county court.”63
At trial, the prosecution argued that Dempsey was a White-looking Black man. Dempsey argued that he was legally White despite having a trace of African ancestry. The North Carolina act of 1777 defined as White anyone of less than one-eighth Negro blood.
According to trial testimony, only one of Dempsey’s sixteen great-great-grandparents had any Black ancestry at all. This individual married a White woman and had a red-haired blue-eyed son named Joseph (at most 1/2 Black, although probably much less). Joseph married a White woman and had a European-looking son named William (1/4, at most). William married a White woman and had a son named Whitemell (1/8, at most), who was the defendant’s father. And so, Whitmell Jr. the defendant had at most 1/16 Black ancestry. Therefore the defense argued that the defendant fell within North Carolina’s legal definition of a White man. The jury convicted Dempsey anyway and he appealed.64
The Supreme Court of North Carolina, Justice C. J. Ruffin presiding, upheld Dempsey’s conviction. Ruffin used recursive logic to rule that the defendant’s own testimony had convicted the man. Dempsey had admitted that his great-grandfather had been more than one-sixteenth Negro and, by law, this made the ancestor legally Black. Dempsey’s grandfather thus had a Black father, and so, being half Black, he was also legally Black as well. Following the same rationale, Dempsey’s father was also half-Black, hence Black, and so was Dempsey. It is inconceivable that Justice Ruffin was unaware that such reasoning made the statute meaningless. If pursued to its logical absurdity, as in this case, any recursive definition is nonsense. Mathematically, every purely recursive definition is irresolvable.
As Alabama Supreme Court Judge J. Parsons wrote the very next year, in an 1850 reductio ad absurdum decision overturning a lower court finding that a light-brown defendant was Black, “If the statute against mulattoes is by construction to include quadroons, then where are we to stop? If we take the first step by construction, are we not bound to pursue the line of descendants, so long as there is a drop of negro blood remaining?”65
[Incidentally, Judge Parsons’s decision was the first time that the words “a drop of negro blood” were used in this sense in a U.S. appellate decision. The irony, of course, is that they were used as an example of an obviously irrational and invalid criterion of group membership.]
Perhaps the ODR is more pronounced for someone like Mariah Carey, who is a celebrity. If Mariah Carey were a non-famous person, I would not think her to have any problem being regarded as "white" if she chose to be. But celebrity status might bring out the ODR in greater force.
celebrity status might bring out the ODR in greater force.
Perhaps. I agree that being a non-Black-identified celebrity with known sub-saharan ancestry would certainly attract probing questions and maybe even inspire interviewers' implications of your being a "sell-out". But some celebrities (Heather Locklear, Peter Ustinov, Carol Channing, etc.) have handled this gracefully and with a smile.
There's ignorance to go around (when Charles Barkley is the most knowledgeable guest that's saying something). I felt bad for Larry David, who either thinks someone has some explaining to do about his background or will discount some interesting results. The conflation of "Native American" with "Central Asian" for these tests is really not helping. I'd venture that David's results are very much in line with an Eastern European Jewish or a Jewish multiethnic heritage that many USAmerican Jews possess.
Mariah Carey is the only guest who brought up the ODR but made explicit reference to how she is perceived in "this country," not what she identified as in any country. There's a difference, and Lopez did not follow it up with a probing question because he was waiting for the "Latina" punch line. He basically just parroted what she said. Neither Snoop Dogg nor Barkley invoked it. I think their opinions and notions of race/racialism reflect those found in the the general U.S. population.
What I enjoyed about the revelations is the confirmation that you can't eyeball admixture. I would have guessed that Jessica Alba had some SSA admixture (nope) and always thought George Lopez was a mestizo with mostly NA admixture (wrong). I have a cousin who looks just like Snoop, just shorter, so I wasn't surprised that he had so much NA/CA admixture but I would have guessed more Euro admixture based on my cousin's ancestry.
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 {Posts: 1829 } Location: Lookin DC Metro, Feelin Geneva
Posted: Tue 26 Jan 2010 15:55 Post subject:
fwsweet wrote:
erasmusinfinity wrote:
celebrity status might bring out the ODR in greater force.
Perhaps. I agree that being a non-Black-identified celebrity with known sub-saharan ancestry would certainly attract probing questions and maybe even inspire interviewers' implications of your being a "sell-out". But some celebrities (Heather Locklear, Peter Ustinov, Carol Channing, etc.) have handled this gracefully and with a smile.
Actually, Mariah Carrey used to identify as "biracial" or "mixed" when she was dating Derek Jeter who she said was just like her "Irish and black American"...but in very recent years (maybe the last 5 years to my knowledge) she has said or heavily implied she is "black" (based on what society thinks), I've ever heard her say "mixed black". This is similar to Obama. She always says her mother is Irish-American, she does not hide this fact. Hmmm...she then married a dark-skinned "black" male comedian during the same period, when all her husbands/boyfriends before had been obviously racially mixed or white (first husband was Italian American).
I believe her current husband believes she is black.
When the white rapper Eminem made derogatory sexual remarks about Mariah Carrey on his last album, Mariah's husband, Nick Cannon said:
Quote:
Maybe I'm going too far, but I thought we moved beyond the days where white men could spew vulgar obscenities at our beautiful queens and get away with it. What's next?
snip
Are we going to let this trash say something horrible about our lovely first lady, Mrs. Michelle Obama? Or would Marshall have talked sideways out of his neck like this about Oprah Winfrey? This act of racist bigotry cannot go unnoticed. Calling my wife a "c-word" and a "whore" is way worse than anything Don Imus could have ever said. So trust, repercussions will be served.Cannon raises an interesting point. Given that Eminem has used racist, derogatory language to describe black people, and black women in particular, in previous lyrics, why do so many black people lap up what he lays down?Reading the comment threads surrounding this drama, I am surprised by the number of women and black people defending Eminem when Asher Roth just got excoriated for joking about "nappy headed hoes." And rightly so, I might add.Please explain it to me. Why does the black community continue to support Eminem despite his racist lyrics?"
My reading of this is NIck Cannon is saying his wife is a "black queen" which not an usual reference for black nationalist types to make about black women and that Eminem offended the honor of his and other "black queens".
I felt bad for Larry David, who either thinks someone has some explaining to do about his background or will discount some interesting results.
Me too. I always feel bad when anyone has a problem with any aspect of their ancestry.
sagascend wrote:
I would have guessed that Jessica Alba had some SSA admixture (nope) and always thought George Lopez was a mestizo with mostly NA admixture (wrong). I have a cousin who looks just like Snoop, just shorter, so I wasn't surprised that he had so much NA/CA admixture but I would have guessed more Euro admixture based on my cousin's ancestry.
I had the same preconceptions of the celebrities ancestries. It is always pleasure to be revealed as wrong.
Dragon Horse wrote:
Actually, Mariah Carrey used to identify as "biracial" or "mixed" when she was dating Derek Jeter who she said was just like her "Irish and black American"...but in very recent years (maybe the last 5 years to my knowledge) she has said or heavily implied she is "black" (based on what society thinks), I've ever heard her say "mixed black".
Dragon Horse wrote:
I believe her current husband believes she is black.
I wonder if it is society or her husband that makes her feel that she has to identify as "black."
I wonder if it is society or her husband that makes her feel that she has to identify as "black."
According to Mary Lee (just her opinion) celebrities of prior generations (Ustinov, Channing, Audubon, Pushkin) gracefully avoided the "Black" label because it would have hindered their careers. Nowadays, she says, many embrace a "Black" label because it helps their careers.
I am not sure that I agree with my wife. For every celebrity of mixed ancestry who claims to be Black (like Wentworth Miller) I can probably name one (like Vin Diesel) who does not.
I saw the Carey-Lopez interview when it aired and part of me wondered if Carey was not slamming/showing the absurdity of the ODR. It's possible Carey was allowed to see Lopez’s DNA results before the interview, and that she then tailored her remarks to Lopez in keeping with this. In other words, the "In this country, I'm Black" and "no really, it goes back to slavery and it's still the law of the land" could have been Carey's set up, knowing that the payoff would be the fact that Lopez’s ancestry is 4% Sub-Saharan African and that it's highly unlikely that too many Americans will suddenly start calling Lopez "Black" or "African-American." On the other hand, I did hear Carey in an interview with Barbara Walters a few years ago. Carey said she could never be White because of the ODR, which she again said goes back to slavery. And, as Dragon Horse noted, in recent years Carey has made comments that suggest more of an embrace of an A-A identity.
Also, Sagascend, your comment about Larry David’s DNA results and the conflation of “Native American” with “Central Asian” cleared things up for me. I figured that this was the case.
My reading of this is NIck Cannon is saying his wife is a "black queen" which not an usual reference for black nationalist types to make about black women and that Eminem offended the honor of his and other "black queens".
So I'm confused...
Just speculation, but Cannon's saying this might have something to do with convincing himself that his wife is just as black as any of his other conquests, Kim Kardashian excepted....I mean he is black, so I assume he dated Kim Kardashian.
For years Carey got flack in some quarters for not identifying as black. I notice in recent years, even before her marriage to Cannon, that she was darker in skin tone.
Quote:
On the other hand, I did hear Carey in an interview with Barbara Walters a few years ago. Carey said she could never be White because of the ODR, which she again said goes back to slavery.
I don't think she ever saw herself as white, even in the early years. Hard to believe she's been around for 20 years.
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 {Posts: 1829 } Location: Lookin DC Metro, Feelin Geneva
Posted: Tue 26 Jan 2010 19:34 Post subject:
G-man:
I agree, I don't think Carey ever saw herself as white or black until recently. From what I can remember, when she came out when I was in Junior High School, until a few years ago, she always made broad statements like "my father is black and my mother is Irish"...like that, then she would say she grew up with her mother and her step father, etc.
You are also right, she did take heat for this among some blacks.
You have an interesting take on Cannon's choice of words.
That was funny about Kim...2 out of 3 Khardasian sisters love some brothas though...rich ones.
I think Kim Kardashian has dated black men exclusively more or less. Her prom date was Tito Jackson's son I think.
Chloe due to her physical size (voluptuous) would be seen as fat by many white men in the U.S. who are her contemporaries. Many black men, on the other hand, would find her appealing. I suppose you go with those who pay you attention.
Last edited by G-Man on Tue 26 Jan 2010 21:40; edited 1 time in total
I don't think she ever saw herself as white, even in the early years.
I agree. I was just saying that Carey has referenced the ODR before and linked it to slavery. However, in the Walter’s interview, Carey’s mention of the ODR seemed less about a belief that this dictated she must identify as A-A and more about a belief that this dictated she could never identify as White/a White identity was completely off the table. If I recall, when Walters asked her specifically how she would describe herself, Carey said a “human being.”
Carey’s mention of the ODR seemed less about a belief that this dictated she must identify as A-A and more about a belief that this dictated she could never identify as White/a White identity was completely off the table.
Yes, it is not the same thing to say that Carey might not feel accepted as "white" as to say that she feels she must identify as "black." I don't know if she is confusing those ideas or if we are here.
From a first glance, I could imagine some Americans putting her in the "white" box and some Americans putting her in the Hispanic / Latino box (because of Euro & African morphology and not because of her Venezuelan great grandmother). I don't think that most Americans would put her in the "black" box on a first glance. Although, with her appearance and even if she were not a celebrity, she would surely be welcomed into the "black" community if she chose that direction.
I'll add that I would expect most "white" Americans to honor her choice if she were to insist that she was any one of those things and not the others. Certainly, in New York I can not imagine anyone who identifies as "white" having a problem with the idea of Mariah Carey, or a non-faous person who looks like Mariah Carey, also being "white." It might be different in other parts of the country.
I wonder if it is society or her husband that makes her feel that she has to identify as "black."
According to Mary Lee (just her opinion) celebrities of prior generations (Ustinov, Channing, Audubon, Pushkin) gracefully avoided the "Black" label because it would have hindered their careers. Nowadays, she says, many embrace a "Black" label because it helps their careers.
I am not sure that I agree with my wife. For every celebrity of mixed ancestry who claims to be Black (like Wentworth Miller) I can probably name one (like Vin Diesel) who does not.
I agree with your wife. Mary Lee is right. Celebs,ugh!
According to Mary Lee (just her opinion) celebrities of prior generations (Ustinov, Channing, Audubon, Pushkin) gracefully avoided the "Black" label because it would have hindered their careers. Nowadays, she says, many embrace a "Black" label because it helps their careers.
Should Pushkin be included? He was a Russian who lived in the early 19th century and he never denied having African ancestors; I'm not sure the concept of one droppism would have made sense to him or other Russians in his time.
Should Pushkin be included? He was a Russian who lived in the early 19th century and he never denied having African ancestors; I'm not sure the concept of one droppism would have made sense to him or other Russians in his time.
You may be right. I included him because, as you point out, "he never denied having African ancestors." This is like the others that I listed. I think we should distinguish between publicly acknowledging partial subsaharan ancestry on the one hand, versus avowing membership in a Black ethnopolitical community on the other. They are different behaviors.
My point was that it has never been all that uncommon for famous people to publicly embrace partial African ancestry while simultaneously rejecting membership in a Black ethnopolitical community. I suggest that "one droppism would have made no sense" to Pushkin in the same way that one-droppism made no sense to Ustinov, Audubon, or Hamilton and makes no sense to Channing. Locklear, or Jennifer Lopez.
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This is similar to Obama. She always says her mother is Irish-American, she does not hide this fact. Hmmm...she then married a dark-skinned "black" male comedian during the same period, when all her husbands/boyfriends before had been obviously racially mixed or white (first husband was Italian American).
