Joined: 28 Apr 2006 {Posts: 282 } Location: 51st State
Posted: Sun 02 Jul 2006 21:57 Post subject: Prejudice, colorism, racism, white supremacy
Salsassin wrote:
But I could say those with more obvious African and Amerindian ancestry have been historically discriminated more in the Americas than those with more ambiguous looks.
Historically and up into the present, I say. According to Salsassin elsewhere, its because they are an out-group. All around white is the privileged social rank, indicative of authority, education, and wealth: SUPREME.
Salsassin wrote:
I think racists don't have to be white supremasists
They do by my definition, but that may be too ugly for this forum. White supremacists are racists.
Racism, Colorism and Power
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But first, before we engage each other in any meaningful discussion of this issue, we must sort out and clarify our definitions. Colorism, not racism, is the correct term for describing the prejudices that Afrikans hold about each other and seemingly use against or to the advantage of themselves and others of relatively similar complexion.
In this respect, prejudice, which is an attitude, a way of thinking, must be distinguished from discrimination, which necessarily involves action. An attitude or thought is without power unless acted upon. Colorism, in the cultural context of group power, is an attitude. This article is couched in terms of power. There is no meaningful discussion of the individual or group without a central and causative focus on real indicators of power for the individual or group relative to other individuals and groups. This is not a discussion of influence because no matter how measured it is a function of power. Without the perceived potential threat of enforcement through an exercise of retaliatory power, influence is meaningless and, in fact, laughable. In the European cultural context, influence without the perception of a sufficient power base is ignored.
In the white supremacist cultural context of European society, Afrikans have never been in the position to exercise power against Europeans based on the color of their skin. Colorism is reflected in intragroup interaction. It occurs within a group. It operates at the level of family. Racism, on the other hand, has nothing to do with family. It regulates the distribution of resources between two or more groups through the actual or threatening use of power. It occurs in the intergroup arena and is unquestionably, viewed through the telling lens of history, the natural posture of Europeans toward Afrikans and every other people with color.
...racism [is] discrimination by a group against another for the purposes of subjugation or maintaining subjugation. In other words one cannot be a racist unless he has the power to subjugate. What blacks are doing is merely to respond to a situation in which they find themselves the objects of white racism.
Posted: Mon 03 Jul 2006 00:36 Post subject: Re: Prejudice, colorism, racism, white supremacy
Altertude wrote:
Salsassin wrote:
But I could say those with more obvious African and Amerindian ancestry have been historically discriminated more in the Americas than those with more ambiguous looks.
Historically and up into the present, I say. According to Salsassin elsewhere, its because they are an out-group. All around white is the privileged social rank, indicative of authority, education, and wealth: SUPREME.
Incorrect. Many White groups have been discriminated on the par with indigenous or Black groups. I just stated that on average, Black and Indigenous are consistently in the lowest rungs, but there are some white groups that have been and/or are down there with them.
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Salsassin wrote:
I think racists don't have to be white supremasists
They do by my definition, but that may be too ugly for this forum. White supremacists are racists.
Yes, White supremacists are racists, but no, racists do not have to be White supremasists, sorry.
The whole claim of power is bogus. All it means is that some people have the power to enforce their racial beleifs. And individuals have power. And power can be relative. It is not colorism when a Black gang in Atlanta goes after Mexicans and mugs and robs them specifically targeting them because they are Mexican. It is not colorism when the Zebra Killers went and murdered Whites. It was racism backed up with individual power. The power of a weapon, the power of numbers in a specific situation.
Yes, White supremacists are racists, but no, racists do not have to be White supremasists, sorry.
The whole claim of power is bogus. All it means is that some people have the power to enforce their racial beleifs. And individuals have power. And power can be relative. It is not colorism when a Black gang in Atlanta goes after Mexicans and mugs and robs them specifically targeting them because they are Mexican. It is not colorism when the Zebra Killers went and murdered Whites. It was racism backed up with individual power. The power of a weapon, the power of numbers in a specific situation.
Good points. I agree with your logic and believe you stated your opinion in a clear and understandable way.
U.S. Accuses 4 Gang Members of Hate Crime in Black's Killing
Prosecutor says 1999 slaying was part of a conspiracy to keep African Americans out of turf claimed in Highland Park.
By John Spano, Times Staff Writer
June 29, 2006
A Latino street gang threatened, assaulted, terrorized and murdered black people in Highland Park for six years in an effort to keep them out of their territory, a federal prosecutor alleged Wednesday.
"Kenneth Wilson was killed because he was black, because he was in Highland Park and because the Avenues gang members had promised each other, had agreed that they would drive African Americans out of the neighborhood, by threats, by force, by murder," Assistant U.S. Atty. Alex Bustamante told jurors.
Prosecutors used a federal hate crimes law, based on the 13th Amendment to the Constitution outlawing slavery, to prosecute the defendants, along with conspiracy charges, in Wilson's death.
The defense claimed without success that the federal government has no power to involve itself in a common street crime, such as Wilson's 1999 murder in a car in Highland Park.
The defendants are Gilbert Saldana, Alejandro Martinez, Fernando Cazares and Porfirio Avila. The trial opened under extraordinary security in the Edward R. Roybal Courthouse downtown, with federal officers blanketing all exits from the courtroom.
The defendants sat behind three rising rows of seats opposite the jury, each shackled to the floor.
The restraints were behind an elaborate set of risers that make them invisible to others in the courtroom.
Defense attorney Reuven L. Cohen urged jurors to keep an open mind and to reject testimony from three former Avenues gang members who he said turned government informants to curry favor with prosecutors.
One of them, David Cruz, a convicted, deported felon who was brought into the U.S. to testify for the government, was at the center of a series of hearings before U.S. District Judge Percy Anderson leading up to the trial.
The alleged conspiracy included multiple assaults on blacks, and prosecutors said they have linked two other killings to the scheme.
"They wanted all blacks out of that neighborhood, not just African American men, not just African American gang members but all African American women and children," Bustamante said.
Cohen said the crimes sprang in part from racial prejudice "that exists in every pocket of every corner of every part of our city."
The "only white racism is really racism" argument is very myopic. As others have said here, power is not one-dimensional or ascribed to one group or another. It depends on the situation. Yes, when the power of a group becomes institutionalized, as white supremacy/racism has been, it can have wider reaching effects. But that doesn't negate the power that groups and individuals have in situations. I'm sure many of us can provide examples of this.
Is it "The Man's" fault that those Latino gang members killed innocent Black people? Are we to the point where no one is responsible for their own actions because of white racism? I'm so tired of this victimization culture that minorities have embraced in the post-Civil Rights era. How did a non-white person ever accomplish ANYTHING positive before 1965?
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Mon 03 Jul 2006 21:14 Post subject: I agree
Hi,
I agree with the points above.
It is not necessary to be white or Japanese to be racist.
In Latin America lots of times mestizos (and sometimes mulattoes as well) as been as racist as the worst KKK member. The Nazi movements in South America are mestizos by large with some members of the Germanic community as well, but minoritary.
And the racism of Mexican gang members against Nicaraguan immigrants is the worst I have ever seen.
Racism can go against whites as well. So if you are a "gringo" in the wrong part of Latin America, things can go very bad.
The Nazi movements in South America are mestizos by large with some members of the Germanic community as well, but minoritary.
--
Mestizo Nazis? How do they justify a belief in Aryan superiority when they couldn't pass the membership test most Nazis equate with pure European heritage? Could you see a Mestizo being embraced by the Neo Nazi crowd in Deutschland? Last year, I read about a nasty blow up in the white supremacist music industry when an owner of white supremacist music company was exposed as having Mexican Mestizo ancestry. The "poor" guy was kicked to the curb after being denounced by his buddies who were always suspicious of his dark complexion, eyes, and hair.
It's easy. They might not fully embrace the white as super race, but they do embrace the concept of lower races and their supposed superiority over tem. Others are atracted to the fascist aspect. Remember many italian fascists were darker skinned.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Fri 11 Aug 2006 22:00 Post subject: Nazis
triguy wrote:
--
Mestizo Nazis? How do they justify a belief in Aryan superiority when they couldn't pass the membership test most Nazis equate with pure European heritage?
Nazis in South America, particularly Chileans, don't believe in the superiority of the Aryan race at all. They believe in the superior MIXTURE between the Goths (Spaniards) and Mapuches (local Indians), and consider that it is the best mixture EVER. They have a mythological label to call this new born race: The Surdics (the opposite of Nordics).
Nazi is a flexible concept, and followers exist in many places.
By the way, Germanic Nazis and Surdics are very good fellows, indeed.
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Could you see a Mestizo being embraced by the Neo Nazi crowd in Deutschland?
Deutschland? Who need it? The pole they are looking for is not in decadent Deutschland or in Thule. It is in the Antartic (No kidding).
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Last year, I read about a nasty blow up in the white supremacist music industry when an owner of white supremacist music company was exposed as having Mexican Mestizo ancestry. The "poor" guy was kicked to the curb after being denounced by his buddies who were always suspicious of his dark complexion, eyes, and hair.
Yes, I know you won't believe it, but Nazi, or similar fascist groups also exist in Mexico and Central America. Nazism is extreme nationalism, and whiteness is not required to follow those ideologies. You will surprise that in South America many Nazis consider Nordics to be weak.
Joined: 28 Apr 2006 {Posts: 282 } Location: 51st State
Posted: Sat 12 Aug 2006 05:37 Post subject: Re: Nazis are fascist but all fascists are not Nazis
oevega wrote:
Nazis in South America, particularly Chileans, don't believe in the superiority of the Aryan race at all. They believe in the superior MIXTURE between the Goths (Spaniards) and Mapuches (local Indians), and consider that it is the best mixture EVER. They have a mythological label to call this new born race: The Surdics (the opposite of Nordics).
Nazi is a flexible concept, and followers exist in many places.
Yes, I know you won't believe it, but Nazi, or similar fascist groups also exist in Mexico and Central America. Nazism is extreme nationalism, and whiteness is not required to follow those ideologies. You will surprise that in South America many Nazis consider Nordics to be weak.
Seems fascism (belief in the supremacy of one national or ethnic group) more accurately describes these groups. Although a few probably internalised the Aryan ideology, as has occured with a number of Jews.
Posted: Sat 12 Aug 2006 15:54 Post subject: Re: Nazis are fascist but all fascists are not Nazis
Altertude wrote:
oevega wrote:
Nazis in South America, particularly Chileans, don't believe in the superiority of the Aryan race at all. They believe in the superior MIXTURE between the Goths (Spaniards) and Mapuches (local Indians), and consider that it is the best mixture EVER. They have a mythological label to call this new born race: The Surdics (the opposite of Nordics).
Then why bother call themselves Nazis? It's very ignorant to believe that any group of humans is superior to another.
Nazi is a flexible concept, and followers exist in many places.
Yes, I know you won't believe it, but Nazi, or similar fascist groups also exist in Mexico and Central America. Nazism is extreme nationalism, and whiteness is not required to follow those ideologies. You will surprise that in South America many Nazis consider Nordics to be weak.
Seems fascism (belief in the supremacy of one national or ethnic group) more accurately describes these groups. Although a few probably internalised the Aryan ideology, as has occured with a number of Jews.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Sat 12 Aug 2006 18:18 Post subject: Re: Nazis are fascist but all fascists are not Nazis
Altertude wrote:
..Seems fascism (belief in the supremacy of one national or ethnic group) more accurately describes these groups. Although a few probably internalised the Aryan ideology, as has occured with a number of Jews.
No. You are wrong! You are totally wrong!
These South American groups are real Nazi. They are not nazi-wannabes. Actually, the contacts between Nordic Nazis and South American Nazis were always very friendly and of mutual benefit, between them of course.
Race is only marginal for many Nazi ideas. Don't forget that Japaneses are not aryan at all but fought at the nazi side. And don't forget that many Tibetian bodies dresses with the uniform of german troops were found by the Russians after the fall of Berlin.
Nazis believe in superior races. Germans are supposed to be the best or Europe, Japan are the best of Asia, so you need a candidate for South America. That's the way theirs theory worked.
South American Nazis, protected by Peron and other leaders, established a network of protection for Nazi refugees called Odessa. They have shown they are still active today, influencing coups, teaching torture, and doing many things under the shadow. One of the last chapter of this long story was the intervention of Dignidad. A colony that Nazis founded in Chile during the 60's.
And the last killing of Jews by the Nazis did not happened during the WW II, but it was the bombing of the Jewish communitary center in Buenos Aires in the 1990s'
Joined: 28 Apr 2006 {Posts: 282 } Location: 51st State
Posted: Sun 13 Aug 2006 14:45 Post subject: Re: Nazis are fascist but all fascists are not Nazis
oevega wrote:
Altertude wrote:
..Seems fascism (belief in the supremacy of one national or ethnic group) more accurately describes these groups. Although a few probably internalised the Aryan ideology, as has occured with a number of Jews.
No. You are wrong! You are totally wrong!
These South American groups are real Nazi. They are not nazi-wannabes.
Real Nazis believe(d) in the racial and cultural superiority of “pure” Aryans (whites), and the inferiority of non-Aryan peoples (non-whites). Their first step was a genocidal program to exterminate all Jews during WWII, who were classified as "mongrelised" semites. So how can “Nazis in South America, particularly Chileans, [who] don't believe in the superiority of the Aryan race at all”, be real Nazis?
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Race is only marginal for many Nazi ideas.
Come again...your joking right, or are you mistaking Nazism with Fascism?
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Don't forget that Japaneses are not aryan at all but fought at the nazi side.
Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan entered into an alliance but I don’t know if their two forces fought on the same front anywhere. They shared a dominating ideology of racial “purity” and xenophobia in their respective regions, coming together in the same way seperatist organisations NOI and the KKK organised joint rallies in more recent times.
Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan entered into an alliance but I don’t know if their two forces fought on the same front anywhere. They shared a dominating ideology of racial “purity” and xenophobia in their respective regions, coming together in the same way seperatist organisations NOI and the KKK organised joint rallies in more recent times.
And luckily for all of us mongrels we can speculate in relative safety what would have happened to this love-fest if the Allies had fallen. My view is that Hitler, Mussolini and Hirohito would have turned on each other eventually. Especially Hitler and Mussolini. Not many Italians were "Aryan," and Italians are sitting on prime real estate. Perfect for grabbing more Lebensraum for the racially superior.
Joined: 28 Apr 2006 {Posts: 282 } Location: 51st State
Posted: Sun 13 Aug 2006 15:41 Post subject:
sagascend wrote:
Altertude wrote:
Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan entered into an alliance but I don’t know if their two forces fought on the same front anywhere. They shared a dominating ideology of racial “purity” and xenophobia in their respective regions, coming together in the same way seperatist organisations NOI and the KKK organised joint rallies in more recent times.
And luckily for all of us mongrels we can speculate in relative safety what would have happened to this love-fest if the Allies had fallen. My view is that Hitler, Mussolini and Hirohito would have turned on each other eventually. Especially Hitler and Mussolini. Not many Italians were "Aryan," and Italians are sitting on prime real estate. Perfect for grabbing more Lebensraum for the racially superior.
'
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