Posted: Tue 11 Jul 2006 18:09 Post subject: Loyalty
Afternoon Ladies,
I have a question. Often, on black oriented websites when the topic of relationships comes up, black women frequently talk about this sense of racial loyalty they have to black males. A loyalty they insist is unreciprocated. Some go into great lengths about how they were socialized by their families and/or society into thinking this way. Really, I'm beginning to think the majority of black American women and some biracial/multigenerationaly mixed women too, have this mindset. Seemingly from early childhood.
I'll be honest, I never felt this type of pressure. Neither when I was a child, an adolescent, or adult. Other girlfriends of mine who are women of color (black, Indian, Hispainc) say they also didn't feel any additional pressure to stay limited "within their race" when it came to friendships or romantic relationships.
Does it have to do with the area of the country you grew up in? I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area in an upper middle class neighborhood. Class? Educational levels? A combination? Or it's simply pure chance?
I was a VERY late bloomer and didn't really start dating untill I was in my early 20's. Dated some nice men and a few creeps (who hasn't?) from different backgrounds and was completely blessed to find my dear husband. My soulmate.
Is my upbringing really that rare when it comes to families of color? I was taught the importance of a good education, making sound decisions in all aspects of my life. Was taught to follow my own heart and my own desires. Told I didn't owe anyone or any group ANY explanations for the choices I made in my life. My loyalty was always to MYSELF first and foremost and it was about self love, and the love of family that was the most important thing.
I guess that's why I've always had a great diversity when it comes to my female friends. Attitude, common values, and similar outlooks on life is what brought us together. Not "race". I really miss them back in California and I look forward to getting together with them at least once or twice when I visit. I consider the women I basically grew up with to be TRUE sisters. And I don't use that term lightly. Here in Cincinnati I only have one black female friend who is also "interracially" married with a young son. All of the rest of my girlfriends are white. Simply because we are so similar in our outlooks, backgrounds, and lifestyle. They've never made me feel out of place or had preconceived notions of how a woman of color is "supposed to act". Everyone likes people who accept them for being themselves.
I've probably gotten off topic already (I'm known to do that sometimes) so I'll stop.
It's just that after reading so many disturbing feelings/attitudes from some of the members at thumperscorner, I realize if this is the general mindset of American black women (and I know there are plenty of equally disturbing diatribes by black men on the web) I REALLY don't relate.
Not in the least. If that makes me a "sell out", or "out of touch with reality" than I gladly take those titles with PRIDE and thankfulness to God.
SO sad to think such wounded women (and there are plenty of men just as wounded and tormented hense the high rate of black on black murder which I believe is a consequence of self-hatred) are creating future generations of children that can't help but be severely damaged by such painful and self defeating attitudes.
And that's why I LOVE this group! There are such intelligent, articulate, fair minded women with high self-esteem who can defend their differing points of view regarding a variety of different controversial issues. Women that "span the rainbow" so to speak when it comes to "race" and identity.
Posted: Tue 11 Jul 2006 19:09 Post subject: Re: Loyalty
zsana wrote:
Afternoon Ladies,
I have a question. Often, on black oriented websites when the topic of relationships comes up, black women frequently talk about this sense of racial loyalty they have to black males. Some go into great lengths about how they were socialized by their families and/or society into thinking this way. Really, I'm beginning to think the majority of black American women and some biracial/multigenerationaly mixed women too, have this mindset. Seemingly from early childhood.
I'll be honest, I never felt this type of pressure. Neither when I was a child, an adolescent, or adult. Other girlfriends of mine who are women of color (black, Indian, Hispainc) say they also didn't feel any additional pressure to stay limited "within our race" when it came to friendships or romantic relationships.
Does it have to do with the area of the country you grew up in? Class? Educational levels? A combination? Or it's simply pure chance?
I was a VERY late bloomer and didn't really start dating untill I was in my early 20's. Dated some nice men and a few creeps (who hasn't?) from different backgrounds and was blessed to find my dear husband. My soulmate.
Is my upbringing really that rare when it comes to families of color? I was taught the importance of a good education, making sound decisions in all aspects of my life. Was taught to follow my own heart and my own desires. Told I didn't owe anyone or any group ANY explanations for the choices I made in my life. My loyalty was always to MYSELF first and foremost and it was about self love, and the love of family that was the most important thing.
I guess that's why I've always had a great diversity when it comes to my female friends. Attitude, common values, and similar outlooks on life is what brought us together. Not "race". I really miss them back in California and I look forward to getting together with them at least once or twice when I visit. I consider the women I basically grew up with to be TRUE sisters. And I don't use that term lightly. Here in Cincinnati I only have one black female friend who is also "interracially" married with a young son. All of the rest of my girlfriends are white. Simply because we are so similar in our outlooks, backgrounds, and lifestyle. They've never made me feel out of place or had preconceived notions of how a woman of color is "supposed to act". Everyone likes people who accept them for being themselves.
I've probably gotten off topic (I'm known to do that sometimes) already so I'll stop.
It's just that after reading so many disturbing feelings/attitudes from some of the members at thumperscorner, I realize if this is the general mindset of American black women (and I know there are plenty of equally disturbing diatribes by black men on the web) I REALLY don't relate.
Not in the least. If that makes me a "sell out", or "out of touch with reality" than I gladly take those titles with PRIDE and thankfulness to God.
SO sad to think such wounded women (and there are plenty of men just as wounded and tormented hense the high rate of black on black murder which I believe is a consequence of self-hatred) are creating future generations of children that can't help but be severely damaged by such painful and self defeating attitudes.
Great question. I've thought a lot about this phenomenon, probably all of the soul searching that I have done throughout my life on various aspects of my personal identity.
This racial loyalty program is hard to pin down. No one in my family ever told me that I should only date Black men. Both of my parents have always told me that race should not be a factor in the mate that one chooses and I believe that they are being honest with me. Both parents have had close relationships with people from all walks of life. My mother dated a White American man and almost married a German man (my parents are divorced). But she also said that finding her husband, who is Black American, was like "coming home." I think that's also because they are very similar in upbringing, life experiences and they look alike too.
I don't associate with people who demand racial loyalty, as my close friendships and dating partners are sure to cause problems for them. I try to separate systemic issues like colorism and racism from people's personal choices. Luckily I have friends with whom I can be honest about issues like these, and I am very comfortable with my ecclectic taste in men.
BUT - Black American culture, in my opinion, infantilizes Black men to a certain degree. They have to be protected, nurtured, excused for sexist behavior because it is "so hard for them out there." I believe that this protectiveness towards Black men is how racial loyalty develops. Many Black women might take it upon themselves to be the caretakers of Black men because of cultural rules like the following:
1. Don't talk about sexism in the Black community
2. Blame non-Black women for "tempting" Black men away from Black
women
3. Black women are responsible for the state of the race and need to
turn things around
4. Black men are super-masculine - all other men are inferior
I think these messages may have really taken root in the 70s, so you have a lot of women in their 40s and 50s who raised daughters to play by these rules. Unlike "back then," one's racial loyalty is not going to be rewarded with a Black male prize.
The wounded people in Black culture have taken prominence - their views pass for the authority. The culture of victimhood has overtaken any sense of pride in what Black culture was and is. It makes more sense in this notion of Black culture for an attractive, well-educated Black woman to pine away for the IBM, be with a married Black man, or settle for poor treatment by a Black man than to recognize the IMs (Ideal Men) all around her. That's just sad to me, but it is not the only way to live.
Joined: 03 Jun 2005 {Posts: 270 } Location: California
Posted: Tue 11 Jul 2006 23:44 Post subject:
OK. I'm airing my laundry online in a way I could never do IRL.
I'm a MGM, with a wide spectrum of skin tones in my extended family....another story...
My parents came from an insulated 'colored' and Black community (read segregation), but I was raised in SoCal. We were identified (brainwashed) as 'Black', although in many cases people did not believe us. And we caught flack from many groups.
As for dating, I (and my older siblings) was subtly encouraged to either date respectable, educated gentlemen (or ladies, for my brothers) who were either 'colored' or white. (The parents were not initially happy about my older siblings dating whites, but got over it because of where we lived, and the lack of 'colored' dates.)
And *not* biracial unless they come from a 'nice family' (i.e., educated, not Jerry-Springer-esque, or 'hippies'/ liberals. )
And it would help if they were also the same religion (very important) or open to the children being raised our family's religion. SO many complications.
Now, I didn't date until I was in college. I will admit that had no attraction to Black guys, ESPECIALLY since they seemed to gravitate towards me just because of the color of my skin.
I think it was the proprietary manner in which they thought I would date them ONLY, and then how they acted when my friends were of all groups, and I dated 'outside my race'.
This later morphed into a apprehension about being around most Black males (strangers) and even Black females because of the very aggressive/ hostile behavior towards me and my older sister (a natural blonde and VERY aryan-looking).
In looking back now, I can say that I've never dated a Black guy. I had nothing in common with the guys I met on so many different levels, especially cultural. And it was weird (or not!) that I had more in common culturally with non-Blacks that Blacks.
I'm an introvert, and I can count on one hand the number of Black friends I have. I have also not met any 'colored'/ mulatto friends because I have not met any who were not angrily Black or who avoided other 'coloreds' or who hated Blacks.
Posted: Wed 12 Jul 2006 03:55 Post subject: Re: Loyalty
zsana wrote:
Afternoon Ladies,
I have a question. Often, on black oriented websites when the topic of relationships comes up, black women frequently talk about this sense of racial loyalty they have to black males. A loyalty they insist is unreciprocated. Some go into great lengths about how they were socialized by their families and/or society into thinking this way. Really, I'm beginning to think the majority of black American women and some biracial/multigenerationaly mixed women too, have this mindset. Seemingly from early childhood.
It is a curious thing to consider where this attitude originates. My biracial daughter expressed feeling jealous when seeing white girls with a black boy. This may be a phase that she's going through. She gravitates toward black culture, ie taste in music and certain types of clothes, and she has a lot of black girlfriends. I'm guessing that these feelings of jealousy are coming from the relationships that she shares with her black girlfriends. It certainly isn't coming from her immediate family.
zsana wrote:
I'll be honest, I never felt this type of pressure. Neither when I was a child, an adolescent, or adult. Other girlfriends of mine who are women of color (black, Indian, Hispainc) say they also didn't feel any additional pressure to stay limited "within their race" when it came to friendships or romantic relationships.
Does it have to do with the area of the country you grew up in? I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area in an upper middle class neighborhood. Class? Educational levels? A combination? Or it's simply pure chance?
I grew up in central Maryland in a middle class neighborhood. My parents told me that they wanted me to "stick with black guys". My husband is from California. He says that the racial environment is very different and laid back on the west coast than it is on the east coast. He said that the African-Americans on the east coast are far more uptight and self-segregating/ cliquish than what he's experienced with African-Americans in the deep South or on the west coast. He says that many African-Americans here in the DC area give him the feeling that they'd prefer for him not to be around because he's white.
zsana wrote:
I was a VERY late bloomer and didn't really start dating untill I was in my early 20's. Dated some nice men and a few creeps (who hasn't?) from different backgrounds and was completely blessed to find my dear husband. My soulmate.
Is my upbringing really that rare when it comes to families of color? I was taught the importance of a good education, making sound decisions in all aspects of my life. Was taught to follow my own heart and my own desires. Told I didn't owe anyone or any group ANY explanations for the choices I made in my life. My loyalty was always to MYSELF first and foremost and it was about self love, and the love of family that was the most important thing.
I also was taught the importance of a good education and making sound decisions. Of couse, my parents would have preferred that all of this be done within the frame of me being married to a black man but it didn't work out that way for me. I guess I'm just more of a free thinker and a person who marches to the beat of my own drum.
zsana wrote:
I guess that's why I've always had a great diversity when it comes to my female friends. Attitude, common values, and similar outlooks on life is what brought us together. Not "race". I really miss them back in California and I look forward to getting together with them at least once or twice when I visit. I consider the women I basically grew up with to be TRUE sisters. And I don't use that term lightly. Here in Cincinnati I only have one black female friend who is also "interracially" married with a young son. All of the rest of my girlfriends are white. Simply because we are so similar in our outlooks, backgrounds, and lifestyle. They've never made me feel out of place or had preconceived notions of how a woman of color is "supposed to act". Everyone likes people who accept them for being themselves.
I've always been an "individualist". I'm not drawn to groups but rather individuals. The friends that I gravitate towards seem to be those who've never really "joined a pack" when it comes to making friends. It's sort of like all of the "misfits" finally finding a place for ourselves with people who don't judge us or reject us for "being wierd or different". This has resulted in me also having friends from various ethnic groups. But, now that I think about it, I don't have many close black friends! It's not intentional.
zsana wrote:
I've probably gotten off topic already (I'm known to do that sometimes) so I'll stop.
Hey zsana, it's your topic, you GO GURL all you like!
zsana wrote:
It's just that after reading so many disturbing feelings/attitudes from some of the members at thumperscorner, I realize if this is the general mindset of American black women (and I know there are plenty of equally disturbing diatribes by black men on the web) I REALLY don't relate.
I don't relate with this mindset either. Also, I never could relate to the fixation on light skin/ dark skin issues that plague a lot of black women. It breaks my heart though. I know that there are many good people in the black community who have much to offer.
zsana wrote:
Not in the least. If that makes me a "sell out", or "out of touch with reality" than I gladly take those titles with PRIDE and thankfulness to God.
There's no guilt trip in the world that can force me into going along with this kind of misery. Your insight into these matters is definitely something that I CAN relate to. I also gladly take this title with pride. In fact, I think that I'll make some "Sell out" bumper stickers for my car, you want one too?... (just kidding)...
zsana wrote:
SO sad to think such wounded women (and there are plenty of men just as wounded and tormented hense the high rate of black on black murder which I believe is a consequence of self-hatred) are creating future generations of children that can't help but be severely damaged by such painful and self defeating attitudes.
And that's why I LOVE this group! There are such intelligent, articulate, fair minded women with high self-esteem who can defend their differing points of view regarding a variety of different controversial issues. Women that "span the rainbow" so to speak when it comes to "race" and identity.
I know I'm not alone and it reminds me of home...
I'm here for the same reasons zsana! This is a wonderful group. Your post was awesome as usual.
I think it's wonderful how we can all be so honest and forthcoming with our personal truths, pasts, and present outlooks here in this forum! All without being judged or having our "racial" identities (whatever they may be) and loyalties challenged based on what we share here.
It's simply wonderful...
Tracy, I think you're doing a great job as moderator! Keep up the good work.
Now, I didn't date until I was in college. I will admit that had no attraction to Black guys, ESPECIALLY since they seemed to gravitate towards me just because of the color of my skin.
i am soooo glad that i finally heard another multiracial female say this! i have dated a few black men but not as many blacks as i have whites. the reason being? i friggin' HATE the way so many black men who have approached me have acted like i am some kind of highly sought-after high yella trophy. maybe some women wouldn't understand that and would WANT to be thought of as a prize but the notion has always turned me off-- and i mean it turns me off in a MAJOR way. actually it angers and sickens me. i am being totally objectified and it isn't even the usual way men objectify females, for their boobs or their asses or whatever (which is bad enough). i am a prize because of my skin color and whatever non-black features i may have.
Quote:
I think it was the proprietary manner in which they thought I would date them ONLY, and then how they acted when my friends were of all groups, and I dated 'outside my race'.
this i can relate too as well. when i was young, in my teens and later on in years (just a few years ago) when i became single again i noticed that some black men automatically assumed i would be attracted to them and i would be exclusively involved w/ black men because i am mixed. when i dated white men you could just see the disdain on their faces and a few of them even vocalized their disapproval to me-- which was as huge mistake on their parts because i proceeded to tell them where they could stick their narrow-minded expectations.
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