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Salsassin SuperWizard

Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3515 }
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Posted: Mon 31 Jul 2006 21:04 Post subject: |
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| I was talking about two first gens mixing versus two multigens mixing. |
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sagascend Moderator-at-Large

Joined: 17 Jun 2006 {Posts: 2418 }
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Posted: Mon 31 Jul 2006 21:09 Post subject: |
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| fwsweet wrote: | | Salsassin wrote: | | I wonder if being first generation increases the chances of getting a European looking kid when children are had as these genetic 'clumps' are less randomized or shuffled than that of multigens, such as dominicans. Or would the chances be the same? |
The chance of producing a child with either extreme of looks in the first generation are nil. To see why, imagine shuffling together (in a perfect riffle shuffle) a blue-backed deck of cards and a green-backed deck, and then cutting them into two piles of 52 cards each. Repeat the process with those two piles, over and over again. The chance that, after many shuffles, you will wind up with most of the green-back cards (more that 26) in one pile is quite likely (although the next shuffle will mix them again). But the probability that you will wind up with most of the green-back cards (more that 26) in one pile after the very first shuffle is dead zero. In short, the first generation is always a blend or mix. It is in the second and subsequent generations that you get randomness. |
The way I interpret this analogy, most FGMs in the U.S. would not be the "first shuffle" genetically speaking. Aren't a significant number of Americans of all "races" MGMs, and, therefore, singular green-blue reshuffles that we think are mixing blue and green for the first time? |
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fwsweet Administrator

Joined: 26 Nov 2004 {Posts: 5380 } Location: Palm Coast, FL
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Posted: Mon 31 Jul 2006 21:18 Post subject: |
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| sagascend wrote: | | The way I interpret this analogy, most FGMs in the U.S. would not be the "first shuffle" genetically speaking. Aren't a significant number of Americans of all "races" MGMs, and, therefore, singular green-blue reshuffles that we think are mixing blue and green for the first time? |
Yes, that is correct. It is a theoretical thought experiment that cannot be achieved in any real population, not even in Europe or wesrt Africa. Still, the principle holds. Every child has 23 chromosomes from its father and 23 from its mother. So if the parental genotyopes are very different, the first-generation child is a perfect 50-50 blend or mix of those different genotypes. |
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sagascend Moderator-at-Large

Joined: 17 Jun 2006 {Posts: 2418 }
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Posted: Mon 31 Jul 2006 21:27 Post subject: |
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| fwsweet wrote: | | sagascend wrote: | | The way I interpret this analogy, most FGMs in the U.S. would not be the "first shuffle" genetically speaking. Aren't a significant number of Americans of all "races" MGMs, and, therefore, singular green-blue reshuffles that we think are mixing blue and green for the first time? |
Yes, that is correct. It is a theoretical thought experiment that cannot be achieved in any real population, not even in Europe or wesrt Africa. Still, the principle holds. Every child has 23 chromosomes from its father and 23 from its mother. So if the parental genotyopes are very different, the first-generation child is a perfect 50-50 blend or mix of those different genotypes. |
So if I amend your original analogy and use 46 cards to represent chromosomes instead of 52, is the following correct(?):
1. Mother's makeup is 37 blue and 9 green cards
2. Father's is 1 blue and 45 green cards
3. Each shuffle that produces offspring will draw 23 cards from the predominantly blue mother deck and 23 cards from the almost entirely green father deck.
4. Probability suggests that the offspring will be a more even blue-green mix than either the mother or father. |
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Salsassin SuperWizard

Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3515 }
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Posted: Mon 31 Jul 2006 21:30 Post subject: |
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| That is how I understood it. |
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Salsassin SuperWizard

Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3515 }
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Posted: Mon 31 Jul 2006 21:31 Post subject: |
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| Salsassin wrote: | | I was talking about two first gens mixing versus two multigens mixing. |
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fwsweet Administrator

Joined: 26 Nov 2004 {Posts: 5380 } Location: Palm Coast, FL
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Posted: Mon 31 Jul 2006 21:42 Post subject: |
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| sagascend wrote: | So if I amend your original analogy and use 46 cards to represent chromosomes instead of 52, is the following correct(?):
1. Mother's makeup is 37 blue and 9 green cards
2. Father's is 1 blue and 45 green cards
3. Each shuffle that produces offspring will draw 23 cards from the predominantly blue mother deck and 23 cards from the almost entirely green father deck.
4. Probability suggests that the offspring will be a more even blue-green mix than either the mother or father. |
Precisely. As Professor Higgins would have said, "By George, she's got it!" <grin> (with apologies to Lerner and Loewe) |
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mymulatto Experienced User

Joined: 06 Jul 2005 {Posts: 137 }
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Posted: Mon 31 Jul 2006 21:51 Post subject: Light-Skinned Black looks vs biracial looks |
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| fwsweet wrote: | | Salsassin wrote: | | I wonder if being first generation increases the chances of getting a European looking kid when children are had as these genetic 'clumps' are less randomized or shuffled than that of multigens, such as dominicans. Or would the chances be the same? |
The chance of producing a child with either extreme of looks in the first generation are nil. To see why, imagine shuffling together (in a perfect riffle shuffle) a blue-backed deck of cards and a green-backed deck, and then cutting them into two piles of 52 cards each. Repeat the process with those two piles, over and over again. The chance that, after many shuffles, you will wind up with most of the green-back cards (more that 26) in one pile is quite likely (although the next shuffle will mix them again). But the probability that you will wind up with most of the green-back cards (more that 26) in one pile after the very first shuffle is dead zero. In short, the first generation is always a blend or mix. It is in the second and subsequent generations that you get randomness. |
none of this bull crap make any cents |
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mymulatto Experienced User

Joined: 06 Jul 2005 {Posts: 137 }
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Posted: Mon 31 Jul 2006 21:54 Post subject: Re: Light-Skinned Black looks vs biracial looks |
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| mymulatto wrote: | | fwsweet wrote: | | Salsassin wrote: | | I wonder if being first generation increases the chances of getting a European looking kid when children are had as these genetic 'clumps' are less randomized or shuffled than that of multigens, such as dominicans. Or would the chances be the same? |
The chance of producing a child with either extreme of looks in the first generation are nil. To see why, imagine shuffling together (in a perfect riffle shuffle) a blue-backed deck of cards and a green-backed deck, and then cutting them into two piles of 52 cards each. Repeat the process with those two piles, over and over again. The chance that, after many shuffles, you will wind up with most of the green-back cards (more that 26) in one pile is quite likely (although the next shuffle will mix them again). But the probability that you will wind up with most of the green-back cards (more that 26) in one pile after the very first shuffle is dead zero. In short, the first generation is always a blend or mix. It is in the second and subsequent generations that you get randomness. |
none of this bull crap make any cents |
Light-Skinned Black looks vs biracial looks there is no light skinned black look. |
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mymulatto Experienced User

Joined: 06 Jul 2005 {Posts: 137 }
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Posted: Mon 31 Jul 2006 21:57 Post subject: Light-Skinned Black looks vs biracial looks |
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| Light-Skinned Black looks vs biracial looks you people trying to say there are people who are dark skinned in a lighter body,there no such thing as a light skinned black anywhy how can you be light skinned in a dark body? |
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Salsassin SuperWizard

Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3515 }
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Posted: Mon 31 Jul 2006 22:12 Post subject: Re: Light-Skinned Black looks vs biracial looks |
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| mymulatto wrote: | | Light-Skinned Black looks vs biracial looks you people trying to say there are people who are dark skinned in a lighter body,there no such thing as a light skinned black anywhy how can you be light skinned in a dark body? |
How can you be human in a mule body?
Words change in their meanings. |
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Phil345 Wizard

Joined: 03 Oct 2005 {Posts: 524 }
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Posted: Mon 31 Jul 2006 22:48 Post subject: Re: Light-Skinned Black looks vs biracial looks |
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| mymulatto wrote: |
none of this bull crap make any cents |
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Salsassin SuperWizard

Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3515 }
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Posted: Mon 31 Jul 2006 22:55 Post subject: |
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| Well technically if you feed the bull spare change,you might get two cents. |
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Mariani Regular User

Joined: 15 Jun 2006 {Posts: 82 }
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Posted: Wed 02 Aug 2006 14:36 Post subject: Re: Light-Skinned Black looks vs biracial looks |
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| Salsassin wrote: | | mymulatto wrote: | | Light-Skinned Black looks vs biracial looks you people trying to say there are people who are dark skinned in a lighter body,there no such thing as a light skinned black anywhy how can you be light skinned in a dark body? |
How can you be human in a mule body?
Words change in their meanings. |
But you still don't accept it don't you while expecting us to accept your concept. |
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BlackHaze Experienced User

Joined: 29 Dec 2004 {Posts: 114 }
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Posted: Mon 30 Oct 2006 23:49 Post subject: |
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The person who made this thread doesn't seem to understand that phenotype and ancestry are two different things. I think a significant, not all, but a significant number of African Americans have distant white ancestry. Therefore, some black people already carry the recessive european alleles responsible for light skin. To my understanding, an allele can either dissappear over time or it can propagate for generations until its blended with another person that also carries that same allele. When this happens, two predominately black parents will occasionally have offspring with visible european traits-such as light skin.
While a black person who looks like Tisha Campbell would have to have at least one white ancestor on both sides of her family, you can't always assume that a person has equal black and white ancestry just because they appear to. The people we refer to as light skinned blacks are not multigenerationally mixed, they're people who are born into predominately black families and by random chance, happened to inherit those traits.
I recently watched a program on the science channel on human variation. It featured a 'coloured' woman from South Africa who was born to two white parents. They discovered both of the white parents had distant african genes that were passed on to their children but the mixed race phenotype only reappeared in one of them. I find this to be an interesting phenomenon and that's what brought me back to this forum. I need to know if there are any studies on African admixture in white americans? And is there a proper, scientific term for this phenomenon? |
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Salsassin SuperWizard

Joined: 04 Apr 2005 {Posts: 3515 }
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Posted: Tue 31 Oct 2006 00:27 Post subject: Re: Light-Skinned Black looks vs biracial looks |
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| mymulatto wrote: | | fwsweet wrote: | | Salsassin wrote: | | I wonder if being first generation increases the chances of getting a European looking kid when children are had as these genetic 'clumps' are less randomized or shuffled than that of multigens, such as dominicans. Or would the chances be the same? |
The chance of producing a child with either extreme of looks in the first generation are nil. To see why, imagine shuffling together (in a perfect riffle shuffle) a blue-backed deck of cards and a green-backed deck, and then cutting them into two piles of 52 cards each. Repeat the process with those two piles, over and over again. The chance that, after many shuffles, you will wind up with most of the green-back cards (more that 26) in one pile is quite likely (although the next shuffle will mix them again). But the probability that you will wind up with most of the green-back cards (more that 26) in one pile after the very first shuffle is dead zero. In short, the first generation is always a blend or mix. It is in the second and subsequent generations that you get randomness. |
none of this bull crap make any cents |
Yes, it is above your head. |
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zsana Moderator

Joined: 05 Feb 2005 {Posts: 1032 }
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Posted: Tue 31 Oct 2006 13:43 Post subject: |
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BlackHaze wrote:
| Quote: | | The people we refer to as light skinned blacks are not multigenerationally mixed, they're people who are born into predominately black families and by random chance, happened to inherit those traits. |
What constitutes "light-skinned black" is going to be different according to who you talk to. What's considered light-skinned for one person is dark to someone else. Even completely Caucasian to another. Like Harold Ford Jr. for example.
http://www.fordfortennessee.com/
Some at this board swear he looks like your average black/African-American, while others clearly see he's of biracial ancestry. One frequent poster here said he'd be considered Nordic in their country. And I posted an article the other day from a guy who thinks he's a white-American of Italian origin.
I will agree that there are a number of "throwback" cases (for lack of a better term) in many African-American identified predominately black families. But there are also a number of situations where the Great Grandparents right on down to the Great Grandchildren are of obvious stereotypical biracial appearance. Long lines of families where endogomy has and continues to be practiced. If/when these people publicly classify themselves as black/African-American they are also considered "light-skinned blacks" by many to most Americans brought up under the ideology of the ODR.
| Quote: | | I recently watched a program on the science channel on human variation. It featured a 'coloured' woman from South Africa who was born to two white parents. They discovered both of the white parents had distant african genes that were passed on to their children but the mixed race phenotype only reappeared in one of them. |
I wish I had seen that program. That's the famous Sandra Laing case you're referring to I believe.
'Black Afrikaner' story to become film
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2944922.stm
It's been discussed here at ODR extensivily in the past. |
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G-Man Moderator

Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 2992 }
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Posted: Tue 31 Oct 2006 18:01 Post subject: |
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| zsana wrote: | BlackHaze wrote:
| Quote: | | The people we refer to as light skinned blacks are not multigenerationally mixed, they're people who are born into predominately black families and by random chance, happened to inherit those traits. |
What constitutes "light-skinned black" is going to be different according to who you talk to. What's considered light-skinned for one person is dark to someone else. Even completely Caucasian to another. Like Harold Ford Jr. for example. |
This kind of thing used to crop up at Mixed Folks.com from time to time. Some on there swore there were differences in genotype and phenotype between "mixed people" (biracials) and light-skinned blacks that could be perceived easily. One person even claimed he could tell the difference between the two most of the time. The fact that many of them would be considered simply black people by many black and white folks seemed to escape this person's notice. Mixing black and white can bring about a variety of complexions and phenotypes.
I work with people who are probably black identified and probably are not biracial, but are very mulatto looking. There's at least two people I know of at work who are biracial (one half black half Asian, other half black half white) and it would be surprising to many if they revealed they had non-black parents. |
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zsana Moderator

Joined: 05 Feb 2005 {Posts: 1032 }
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Posted: Tue 31 Oct 2006 22:46 Post subject: |
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G-Man wrote:
| Quote: | The fact that many of them would be considered simply black people by many black and white folks seemed to escape this person's notice. Mixing black and white can bring about a variety of complexions and phenotypes.
I work with people who are probably black identified and probably are not biracial, but are very mulatto looking. There's at least two people I know of at work who are biracial (one half black half Asian, other half black half white) and it would be surprising to many if they revealed they had non-black parents. |
These are good observations. I recently came across a website belonging to a member of another group I used to visit from time to time. He and his African wife had a son recently. He's so adorable...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/computerzen/sets/72057594052595008/show/
I tell you, if I saw little Zenzo alone without his parents I truly wouldn't assume he was biracial as in 50/50. My first assumption would be that both his parents looked similar to him and were black identified. MAYBE a white Grandparent but then couldn't that be said for almost any person of color when you think about it?
Again this is just my personal perception and I'm sure others may have a different opinion. |
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sagascend Moderator-at-Large

Joined: 17 Jun 2006 {Posts: 2418 }
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Posted: Tue 31 Oct 2006 23:14 Post subject: |
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You're not the only one, Zsana. I felt the same way when I found out Boris Kodjoe was biracial, and German to boot. He looks a lot like my dad(in his younger days ), whose 3/4 grandparents were MGM, and one was a FGM (meaning he had one European White parent; I thought he was a White man until I was set straight by my grandma). He didn't look any more likely to have a White parent than I do, IMO, which goes to show you how distorted our personal perceptions can be.
I also have a friend whose mother is German Jewish and whose father was Nigerian. He is darkskinned with aquiline features, like a stereotypical Ethiopian. I have never seen his father but I'd bet my friend looks like a 50-50 mix of his parents. Maybe the American eye is skewed when it comes to biracial/FGM people outside of the U.S. |
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