Posted: Mon 31 Jul 2006 12:47 Post subject: Re: Montell Williams
mul2std wrote:
gemini072 wrote:
Obbie wrote:
An unfortunate truth that must be understood:
Anyone in the Media who is identified as "black"/Afro-Am, fears alienating the "black"/Afro-Am dollar paying audience. Who knows what Montel really thinks? And do we give a hoot?
People like him or Vanessa Williams or Halle Berry think their careers/pocketbooks will be jeopardized by public acknowledgement of their complete ancestry. Of course, they look the way they do BECAUSE of their COMPLETE ancestry, but the current myth in play is that "blacks come in all colors".
This is true of course, and that last statement is something that is a very popular saying among black americans. Partially because it is true. I think with many it is a given fact that doesn't need a whole lot of attention all the time that 'blacks' with light eyes, 'good hair' have it because of some mixtur with whites or indians in their family line. Dealing with someone like Vanesse mainly because she isn't biracial, but generationally mixed, like a lot of other black-identified people. I have 2 cousin(bro/sis) who are dark skinned from my fathers side and they have cleft chins and silky wavy hair. Their acknowledgement of having white ancestry will be looked at with scepticism by even 'mixed identifed people' because of their dark skin. Yet both of their grandfathers are biracial. I remember talking with the male cousin and a (non-mixed) black woman we knew made a comment to me about my hair but automatically reject the idea that my cousin's hair was natural.
i hear ya. my father's side are, essentially, multigens as well. to me they've always been black (i guess because i have a "black side" and a "white side") and to be honest w/ you, even after being on all of these multiracial messageboards i still think of dad and his crew as black. but both of my dad's grandmothers were mixed women. triracial women, mixed w/ black, white (one of them had german, the other's white ethnicity is up for grabs), and native american (one had cherokee ancestory, the other blackfoot).
Hey, you and I have similar Native heritage, my fathers side is Cherokee & my mothers side is Blackfoot (and French). South Carolina??
It's interesting, in talking with my parents about who they view themselves and it's almost a dual answer especially for my mother. She was practically raised by her 80%French 20%Blackfoot grandmother. And my dads mother died when he was really young, yet his Cherokee grandfather(most Cherokee were mixed by then to some degree) still lived on the land with them.
because of this you see varying degrees of skin color in my dad's family. nobody (with the exception of 3 of my cousins who are also FGM) has silky, straight or wavy hair but their skin tones vary from around vanessa william's skin color to lauren hill's. my dad is what some folks would call a "redbone" because he has that coppery light brown color.
so i guess, w/ vanessa being a MGM and montell being a griffe, it is understandable why they'd claim to be black. there are so many people like your family and my family who have members who resemble those two performers. they may or may not have as much admixture as those two but for all intensive purposes they identify as black.
Posted: Mon 31 Jul 2006 15:34 Post subject: Re: Montell Williams
mul2std wrote:
gemini072 wrote:
Obbie wrote:
An unfortunate truth that must be understood:
Anyone in the Media who is identified as "black"/Afro-Am, fears alienating the "black"/Afro-Am dollar paying audience. Who knows what Montel really thinks? And do we give a hoot?
People like him or Vanessa Williams or Halle Berry think their careers/pocketbooks will be jeopardized by public acknowledgement of their complete ancestry. Of course, they look the way they do BECAUSE of their COMPLETE ancestry, but the current myth in play is that "blacks come in all colors".
This is true of course, and that last statement is something that is a very popular saying among black americans. Partially because it is true. I think with many it is a given fact that doesn't need a whole lot of attention all the time that 'blacks' with light eyes, 'good hair' have it because of some mixtur with whites or indians in their family line. Dealing with someone like Vanesse mainly because she isn't biracial, but generationally mixed, like a lot of other black-identified people. I have 2 cousin(bro/sis) who are dark skinned from my fathers side and they have cleft chins and silky wavy hair. Their acknowledgement of having white ancestry will be looked at with scepticism by even 'mixed identifed people' because of their dark skin. Yet both of their grandfathers are biracial. I remember talking with the male cousin and a (non-mixed) black woman we knew made a comment to me about my hair but automatically reject the idea that my cousin's hair was natural.
i hear ya. my father's side are, essentially, multigens as well. to me they've always been black (i guess because i have a "black side" and a "white side") and to be honest w/ you, even after being on all of these multiracial messageboards i still think of dad and his crew as black. but both of my dad's grandmothers were mixed women. triracial women, mixed w/ black, white (one of them had german, the other's white ethnicity is up for grabs), and native american (one had cherokee ancestory, the other blackfoot). because of this you see varying degrees of skin color in my dad's family. nobody (with the exception of 3 of my cousins who are also FGM) has silky, straight or wavy hair but their skin tones vary from around vanessa william's skin color to lauren hill's. my dad is what some folks would call a "redbone" because he has that coppery light brown color.
so i guess, w/ vanessa being a MGM and montell being a griffe, it is understandable why they'd claim to be black. there are so many people like your family and my family who have members who resemble those two performers. they may or may not have as much admixture as those two but for all intensive purposes they identify as black.
I am hard pressed to name a Black American family that is not MGM. How much mixture and the type may vary, but the mixture has always been there in every family that I know, and it is not a shameful secret but a fact. The fact may be that the mixture doesn't change whether you're considered Black due to the ODR. So when my very darkskinned brother (similar look to Tyson Beckford) and I (like Aisha Tyler with curly hair) are with my father (like Boris Kodjoe) and his brother (like Shemar Moore with green eyes), only an idiot couldn't see that we are related because we are all tall and slim and have similar multiethnic features (same eyebrows, nose, mouth, hair, smile, hands and body type). My FGM cousins look like us with lighter skin tones and a couple with green eyes, but still umistakably family to the non-colorist eye. One FGM cousin and MGM cousin look exactly alike yet one of their mothers is my color and the other is White French Canadian. When you come from a family like this and see many other families that are similar it seems obvious that the division between FGM and MGM is not racial or genetic but cultural.
I think that it is a particular bias in the American perspective on race to cast Black MGMs as "blacker" or less mixed than an FGM because they are darker or have kinkier hair than someone like Jennifer Beals. I probably have more genetic mixture than the average American FGM because of the geographic diversity of my gene pool and the propensity of my ancestors to travel and marry into different cultures, but since I am dark-skinned with curly hair all that is lost on the average American. When I go outside of the U.S. to any country, however, it's assumed that I am mixed and people tell me that I look like all kinds of ethnicities, which makes sense because of my ancestry.
Posted: Mon 31 Jul 2006 17:31 Post subject: Re: Montell Williams
sagascend wrote:
mul2std wrote:
gemini072 wrote:
Obbie wrote:
An unfortunate truth that must be understood:
Anyone in the Media who is identified as "black"/Afro-Am, fears alienating the "black"/Afro-Am dollar paying audience. Who knows what Montel really thinks? And do we give a hoot?
People like him or Vanessa Williams or Halle Berry think their careers/pocketbooks will be jeopardized by public acknowledgement of their complete ancestry. Of course, they look the way they do BECAUSE of their COMPLETE ancestry, but the current myth in play is that "blacks come in all colors".
This is true of course, and that last statement is something that is a very popular saying among black americans. Partially because it is true. I think with many it is a given fact that doesn't need a whole lot of attention all the time that 'blacks' with light eyes, 'good hair' have it because of some mixtur with whites or indians in their family line. Dealing with someone like Vanesse mainly because she isn't biracial, but generationally mixed, like a lot of other black-identified people. I have 2 cousin(bro/sis) who are dark skinned from my fathers side and they have cleft chins and silky wavy hair. Their acknowledgement of having white ancestry will be looked at with scepticism by even 'mixed identifed people' because of their dark skin. Yet both of their grandfathers are biracial. I remember talking with the male cousin and a (non-mixed) black woman we knew made a comment to me about my hair but automatically reject the idea that my cousin's hair was natural.
i hear ya. my father's side are, essentially, multigens as well. to me they've always been black (i guess because i have a "black side" and a "white side") and to be honest w/ you, even after being on all of these multiracial messageboards i still think of dad and his crew as black. but both of my dad's grandmothers were mixed women. triracial women, mixed w/ black, white (one of them had german, the other's white ethnicity is up for grabs), and native american (one had cherokee ancestory, the other blackfoot). because of this you see varying degrees of skin color in my dad's family. nobody (with the exception of 3 of my cousins who are also FGM) has silky, straight or wavy hair but their skin tones vary from around vanessa william's skin color to lauren hill's. my dad is what some folks would call a "redbone" because he has that coppery light brown color.
so i guess, w/ vanessa being a MGM and montell being a griffe, it is understandable why they'd claim to be black. there are so many people like your family and my family who have members who resemble those two performers. they may or may not have as much admixture as those two but for all intensive purposes they identify as black.
I am hard pressed to name a Black American family that is not MGM.
Oh there are many out there that from looks aren't mixed (visually) Especially in certain southern communities. But a large part of the 'community' is mixed.
How much mixture and the type may vary, but the mixture has always been there in every family that I know, and it is not a shameful secret but a fact.
Right, my parents actually did't raise us with a black identity, yet they had a strong connection with that identity-coming of age in the 60's. My parents early on (70's) supplied us with info of our mixed heritage, as well as books we could read on all three lines. My favorite books growing up featured 'every' native nation/tribe, the customs, dress, location etc etc I think I thought I was one way back then. Our connection to our 'black' heritage just came being around family & the upscale black methodist church we attended. Interracial couples came there to get married. Yet there was no direct (this is what you are) talk. in the early 80's my dad got us involved with a pan-african cultural group. Which did some good for us because I can't remember them presenting 'blackness' as an identity of victims. It was strictly cultural, history, foods, african customs, kanzaa, carabana, art etc etc We were raised American, with all the benifits of our ethnic heritage.
The fact may be that the mixture doesn't change whether you're considered Black due to the ODR.
That's true. Valid point.
So when my very darkskinned brother (similar look to Tyson Beckford) and I (like Aisha Tyler with curly hair) are with my father (like Boris Kodjoe) and his brother (like Shemar Moore with green eyes), only an idiot couldn't see that we are related because we are all tall and slim and have similar multiethnic features (same eyebrows, nose, mouth, hair, smile, hands and body type). My FGM cousins look like us with lighter skin tones and a couple with green eyes, but still umistakably family to the non-colorist eye. One FGM cousin and MGM cousin look exactly alike yet one of their mothers is my color and the other is White French Canadian. When you come from a family like this and see many other families that are similar it seems obvious that the division between FGM and MGM is not racial or genetic but cultural.
And even then that depends on what was passed on from the non-black relatives. This is a bit different example but I have a temper(controlled now) but a temper passed on from my dad, who got his from his dad, who got his from his cherokee father, not from his black mother. It's can be hard to tell what actually came about or was passed culturally from the non-black relatives. You could probably pull out a few things that aren't really 'black' in culture.
I think that it is a particular bias in the American perspective on race to cast Black MGMs as "blacker" or less mixed than an FGM because they are darker or have kinkier hair than someone like Jennifer Beals.
I totally agree. And all FGM's aren't light w/non-kinky hair. Biracial actress Rachel True side by side with Jennifer Beals, look like 2 different ethnic types. Rachael is a darker mulatta. And their are many ranges of FGM's mixtures that range from dark to light.
I probably have more genetic mixture than the average American FGM because of the geographic diversity of my gene pool and the propensity of my ancestors to travel and marry into different cultures, but since I am dark-skinned with curly hair all that is lost on the average American. When I go outside of the U.S. to any country, however, it's assumed that I am mixed and people tell me that I look like all kinds of ethnicities, which makes sense because of my ancestry.
Last edited by gemini072 on Tue 01 Aug 2006 13:37; edited 1 time in total
And even then that depends on what was passed on from the non-black relatives. This is a bit different example but I have a temper(controlled now) but a temper passed on from my dad, who got his from his dad, who got his from his cherokee father, not from his black mother. It's can be hard to tell what actually came about or was passed culturally from the non-black relatives. You could probably pull out a few things that aren't really 'black' in culture.
For the longest I had my chest all poked out about how the height in my family is "African" (stolen royals of imposing height of course ). I asked my father about it and, come to find out the culprit is my great-great grandfather, who was Alsatian (French). Boy did that deflate my delusions of African grandeur.
Other than our skin color, hair and eye color I don't really know what the right ethnic/racial home for my family's features are. It's even more complicated on my mother's side because she has significant Native American ancestry (Comanche). I've located them on many ethnic faces, which has given me a real appreciation for how mixed humans really are once we open our racialized minds.
And your upbringing sounds really interesting! I too plan to raise my daughter to appreciate her complete ancestry but she will probably be Black-identified because her families are.
Posted: Wed 02 Aug 2006 03:56 Post subject: Re: Montell Williams
sagascend wrote:
When I go outside of the U.S. to any country, however, it's assumed that I am mixed and people tell me that I look like all kinds of ethnicities, which makes sense because of my ancestry.
oh, yeh, i hear ya. my dad said that when he lived in DC he would get mistaken for ethiopian at times (until he started talking and then they KNEW he wasn't from ethiopia! LOL), and of course they are multiethnic people. my dad is actually quite a bit lighter than most ethiopians i've seen but he gets a really beautiful brown color when he has a tan.
i think i stick out in my black family just because i have strong european features. i am lighter than my black relatives but i think it is the features and bone structure that make me look different rather than the skin tone.
and i agree w/ you, i would say that out of all the black families i know 75% of them have to have some admixture in their lineage-- altho in some families it is much more prevelant than others.
Posted: Wed 02 Aug 2006 14:26 Post subject: Re: Montell Williams
gemini072 wrote:
mul2std wrote:
sagascend wrote:
When I go outside of the U.S. to any country, however, it's assumed that I am mixed and people tell me that I look like all kinds of ethnicities, which makes sense because of my ancestry.
oh, yeh, i hear ya. my dad said that when he lived in DC he would get mistaken for ethiopian at times (until he started talking and then they KNEW he wasn't from ethiopia! LOL), and of course they are multiethnic people.
True to a small degree, I think what happens in the arena of Race, there is an assumption that Ethiopians or all africans look the same, and anything that looks differently must be either mixed or non-'black' Egypt, N Africa, NW Africa, W Africa especially. The features of Africans, the ethnic diversity of Africa gets swept under the carpet of Negroid. There may be some mixture in Ethiopia, but for the most part that which we see is their 'ethnic look'
my dad is actually quite a bit lighter than most ethiopians i've seen but he gets a really beautiful brown color when he has a tan.
I get the same thing from ethiopians in Toronto, I get asked am a certain kind etc etc
i think i stick out in my black family just because i have strong european features. i am lighter than my black relatives but i think it is the features and bone structure that make me look different rather than the skin tone.
and i agree w/ you, i would say that out of all the black families i know 75% of them have to have some admixture in their lineage-- altho in some families it is much more prevelant than others.
ASHG 2008: Health, ancestry and Montel Williams
Ancestry testing can be a sensitive subject as evident in a packed morning session discussing some of the social and education aspects of ancestry and genealogical testing. While genetics has a long and sordid past with the term race, it remains a fact (possibly as a vestige of how populations have been studied) that ethnic groups show distinct genetic signatures associate with commonly delineated ethnic groups, and there could be health benefits to using this information. Esteban Gonzalez Burchard at the University of California San Francisco studies African American and Latin American groups. He talked of one project on Multiple Sclerosis that he had been collaborating with. Multiple Sclerosis is predominantly a disease affecting people of European descent. Africans are rarely affected. So his group sent out requests for African Americans affected by the disease and used ancestry specific markers to zero in on portions of the individual’s genomes that might identify a European risk factor migrating through the genome. U.S. Television talk show host Montel Williams was a volunteer.The series of talks ended with some rather passionate debate about the value of race as a term or even as a concept. While one questioner approaching the microphone at the end of the presentations pressed the panel and all in attendence to end its "love affair with the term." "Given that science has clearly shown that humans don’t meet the biological definition for race, why can’t science provide some leadership?" A genetic counselor was equally adamant that we don't avoid such terms just in the interest of being PC if they can provide useful health information.
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). I asked my father about it and, come to find out the culprit is my great-great grandfather, who was Alsatian (French). Boy did that deflate my delusions of African grandeur.
