Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1082 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Thu 03 Aug 2006 14:52 Post subject:
Omar wrote:
That's getting interesting. How do you get to the paper of Schanfield?
The other paper is not precise. I want to see your percentages and the method.
The Schanfield study is part of a book and doesn't appear to be available online by itself. Here is the reference:
Quote:
Schanfield, M.S., R. Brown and M.H. Crawford 1984 Immunoglobulin allotypes in the Black Caribs and Creoles of Belize and St. Vincent. In: Black Caribs: A Case Study of Biocultural Adaptation, pps. 345-363.
Crawford was involved in the Schanfield study, and the book it appeared in was edited by Crawford. So, even if the study isn't available online, I believe Crawford's references to his own work. It looks as though we now have admixture estimates. I believe it is well established that there is definitely Amerindian admixture in the Garifuna. There are several studies that support this; those mentioned before and the two mentioned here. Whether that admixture is specifically from "Caribs" or not, genetics isn't helping us. But Amerindian admixture is present.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Thu 03 Aug 2006 15:03 Post subject: Garifunas
Quote:
estimated that on average approximately 76% of the genes in the coastal Black Carib gene pools were of African origin. The Amerindian component in the Garifuna gene pool was approximately 20%, and the remaining 4% of the genes were from European gene flow. In contrast, the Black Carib gene pool of St. Vincent Island contained 40% African genes, 16% European admixture, and approximately 38% Amerindian genes. These measures of admixture indicate that the gene pools of the Garifuna of Central American are much more African than the Black Carib gene pools of St. Vincent Island.
Hi William,
If the above numbers are correct, I have no doubt then that Garifunas have Amerindian ancestry. The Caribs have a more Amerindian aspect, anyways, but they have twice as much Amerindian genetics in them.
So, if the numbers are correct, I recognize Salssasin and you are right and I am wrong.
Finally, it is curious that Garifunas are 20% Amerindian and look West Africans and Chileans are also 20% Amerindians and look Italians. None of them look "Amerindian" to third parties.
So, I guess in White Americans, that have perhaps 6% of Amerindian genetics, you won't notice that influence at all. Yes, one can see too many Viking looking natives in the U.S. pow-wow these days.
Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1082 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Thu 03 Aug 2006 15:23 Post subject:
Omar wrote:
If the above numbers are correct, I have no doubt then that Garifunas have Amerindian ancestry. The Caribs have a more Amerindian aspect, anyways, but they have twice as much Amerindian genetics in them.
So, if the numbers are correct, I recognize Salssasin and you are right and I am wrong.
Of course, this wasn't about "proving you wrong," I'm sure you realize. I was simply pointing out the facts as I saw them.
Omar wrote:
Finally, it is curious that Garifunas are 20% Amerindian and look West Africans and Chileans are also 20% Amerindians and look Italians. None of them look "Amerindian" to third parties.
I would imagine that 20% Amerindian admixture is too low to dominate the appearance, generally speaking. I believe 20% African admixture in otherwise European people is also just below the cutoff where African features are evident (to most people, anyway), in most cases.
I agree with you about Chileans. I know quite a few and all look like southern Europeans. Many of them could move to Portugal or Spain or Italy or France and wouldn't look out of place at all.
Omar wrote:
So, I guess in White Americans, that have perhaps 6% of Amerindian genetics, you won't notice that influence at all. Yes, one can see too many Viking looking natives in the U.S. pow-wow these days.
In the same way, it is unlikely anyone would notice the little African admixture in Italians, Portuguese, Spaniards, Greeks, Frenchmen, Dutchmen, Britons, etc. Asiatic admixture in other European groups, however, is evident to many people. I've seen Asiatic-looking Hungarians, Turks, and White Russians. I've read descriptions of similar types in Romania and Bulgaria and Yugoslavia. Once in a while one will come across such a type Austria, Poland, Germany, or France. Coon suspects that in France, such an appearance is due to a residual Upper Palaeolithic phenotype, ancestral to and in-between those of Europeans and fully evolved Asiatics. He suspects the same for the Lapps, but admits to fully evolved "mongoloid" admixture in them.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Thu 03 Aug 2006 15:42 Post subject: Europeans
William wrote:
...In the same way, it is unlikely anyone would notice the little African admixture in Italians, Portuguese, Spaniards, Greeks, Frenchmen, Dutchmen, Britons, etc. Asiatic admixture in other European groups, however, is evident to many people. I've seen Asiatic-looking Hungarians, Turks, and White Russians. I've read descriptions of similar types in Romania and Bulgaria and Yugoslavia. Once in a while one will come across such a type Austria, Poland, Germany, or France. Coon suspects that in France, such an appearance is due to a residual Upper Palaeolithic phenotype, ancestral to and in-between those of Europeans and fully evolved Asiatics. He suspects the same for the Lapps, but admits to fully evolved "mongoloid" admixture in them.
There are also light brown skin "Asiatic looking" people in Spain as well. And, I tell you, distinguish them from Amerindians is a hard job. I remember a TV show where they show a small town somewhere in place I believe it was Mexico. It wasn't Mexico but Spain.
Curiously enough, one also can find "European" features in some East Asians. I have seen centain Chinese and Japanese people that look "too much" European sometimes, but one knows they aren't But sometimes one wonder, particularly when it is well known that some Polynesians were blond and color eyed, and had European facial features before contact. Besides, In India one can find European looking people quite often, like a Sihk I saw once, that looked more European than most Europeans.
Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1082 } Location: New Jersey
Posted: Thu 03 Aug 2006 15:55 Post subject:
Omar wrote:
There are also light brown skin "Asiatic looking" people in Spain as well. And, I tell you, distinguish them from Amerindians is a hard job. I remember a TV show where they show a small town somewhere in place I believe it was Mexico. It wasn't Mexico but Spain.
That doesn't surprise me. I should also add that I've seen somewhat "Asiatic looking" Greeks and Italians.
Omar wrote:
Curiously enough, one also can find "European" features in some East Asians. I have seen centain Chinese and Japanese people that look "too much" European sometimes, but one knows they aren't But sometimes one wonder, particularly when it is well known that some Polynesians were blond and color eyed, and had European facial features before contact. Besides, In India one can find European looking people quite often, like a Sihk I saw once, that looked more European than most Europeans.
I have met a few Japanese whose ethnicity I never would have guessed; they looked almost like southern Europeans. I wonder if this is the influence of the Ainu, who are apparently genetically Asiatic but are phenotypically quite European in some cases. They are supposedly descended from the early peoples of Japan, the Jomon hunter-gatherers, who long preceeded the Yayoi-based Japanese there. I've also met a few northern Indians who looked very European, indeed. This all makes one seriously question "eyeballing" people to determine what their ancestry and makeup is.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Thu 03 Aug 2006 16:16 Post subject: Japaneses
William wrote:
...
I have met a few Japanese whose ethnicity I never would have guessed; they looked almost like southern Europeans. I wonder if this is the influence of the Ainu, who are apparently genetically Asiatic but are phenotypically quite European in some cases. They are supposedly descended from the early peoples of Japan, the Jomon hunter-gatherers, who long preceeded the Yayoi-based Japanese there. I've also met a few northern Indians who looked very European, indeed. This all makes one seriously question "eyeballing" people to determine what their ancestry and makeup is.
I have also seem East Asians that can pass like Italians, for instance. Yes, the ancient peoples of Japan had certain degree of "caucasian" genetics in them. However, I don't agree with you that those Japaneses have "East Asian genetic" and that the European looks is just a "coincidence". I believe what happens in there, is that the genes involved in the formation of the phenotype are the same, but those "phenotypical" genes are not the same as the "standard" markers measured by genetists.
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 {Posts: 119 } Location: Somewhere...
Posted: Fri 11 Aug 2006 12:55 Post subject:
My grandfather was a Black Carib or Garifuna from St Vincent and surely was a mixture of both. Not to mention there are descendants in Trinidad who migrated from St. Vincent as well. The people certainly are Black Caribs...
Dominica has the largest pure Amerindian population in the Caribbean, about 300 or so, among around 3000 descendants.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Fri 11 Aug 2006 21:40 Post subject: Caribs
dahlin wrote:
My grandfather was a Black Carib or Garifuna from St Vincent and surely was a mixture of both. Not to mention there are descendants in Trinidad who migrated from St. Vincent as well. The people certainly are Black Caribs...
Dominica has the largest pure Amerindian population in the Caribbean, about 300 or so, among around 3000 descendants.
Hi,
Is great to know that you are directly link to the topic of this thread!
Could you tell us more? We will appreciate it.
I am particularly interested in the survival of Culture and Genetics (not necesarily "pure") in the people of today's Caribbean. Also in the identity issues of the people of the region.
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 {Posts: 119 } Location: Somewhere...
Posted: Sat 12 Aug 2006 23:04 Post subject: Re: Caribs
oevega wrote:
dahlin wrote:
My grandfather was a Black Carib or Garifuna from St Vincent and surely was a mixture of both. Not to mention there are descendants in Trinidad who migrated from St. Vincent as well. The people certainly are Black Caribs...
Dominica has the largest pure Amerindian population in the Caribbean, about 300 or so, among around 3000 descendants.
Hi,
Is great to know that you are directly link to the topic of this thread!
Could you tell us more? We will appreciate it.
I am particularly interested in the survival of Culture and Genetics (not necesarily "pure") in the people of today's Caribbean. Also in the identity issues of the people of the region.
Omar
I'll share what I can. What exactly would you like to know? Actually,both sides of my family have Carib roots. Just a general comments, the Carib communities seem to be very close and to themselves in a way because of the desire to preserve the culture.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Sat 12 Aug 2006 23:25 Post subject: Caribs
Well, I am interesting in this topics:
(1) Preservation of language and cultures, oral traditions, music and religion. How much is new and how much is product of the fusion since recent times.
(2) Degree of admixture between the Caribs of today in the different groups of descendents of Caribbean natives, to know if some of the physical heritage of Caribs is preserved.
(3) Relation of these groups of Carib descendents with navites of the region both in the past and in present days.
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 {Posts: 119 } Location: Somewhere...
Posted: Sun 13 Aug 2006 03:21 Post subject: Re: Caribs
oevega wrote:
Well, I am interesting in this topics:
(1) Preservation of language and cultures, oral traditions, music and religion. How much is new and how much is product of the fusion since recent times.
(2) Degree of admixture between the Caribs of today in the different groups of descendents of Caribbean natives, to know if some of the physical heritage of Caribs is preserved.
(3) Relation of these groups of Carib descendents with navites of the region both in the past and in present days.
(4) Pictures.
Thanks,
Omar
Well, Carib is part of my heritage but not the majority. My exposure to the culture is limited, as I am not living in an Caribbean Amerindian community. However, the answers to those questions would certain depend on the island/nation.
From what I do understand, much of the culture today is a fusion. In Trinidad, for example, the culture is a mixture of Carib/Spanish traditions, and probably also much of the local culture in general. I'm sure this fusion is true for many across the Caribbean.
Quote:
The original inhabitants did not disappear without a trace, nor were they “wiped out” by the superior fighting skills of Spanish colonists. What really happened is that succeeding groups of arrived people interbred with them so that if all persons with Amerindian ancestry within our nation were to raise a hand to be counted, the number would not only be formidable, but would be inclusive of people who “look” white, African, Chinese, East Indian, and “ethnically mixed.”
ELMA REYES, Research Officer, Santa Rosa Carib Community.(deceased)
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But sometimes one wonder, particularly when it is well known that