Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Sun 13 Aug 2006 13:35 Post subject: TAINOS OF PUERTO RICO
In the e-mail list of Tainos, John Morales published this historical comment that may be interesting for the people of the Caribbean. He explain nothing less that the destiny of Tainos of the Caribbean. As far I know, his description is precise.
Omar
Quote:
Op-Ed: Am I the only one who has read this historical bit of data?
In a Puerto Rican history book, written by a Puerto Rican that I
bought in Puerto Rico decades ago, I thought I had learned one
important thing about the fate of Taino of Puerto Rico.
And unlike most of what I have been reading recently at various places on the
internet, it does not end with all Tainos dying.
Instead in the 17th. Century, Spain gravely weakened by the growing
power of England and France, and desperate for measures to
"strengthen" colonial defenses issued a royal decree, designed to
prevent Puerto Rico and it's other colonies from being taken.
It's tactic was unusual for the day. As most know, Spain often sent
it's soldiers to the colonies alone, without a family.
This meant to re-inforce defences required costly deployments from
Spain itself.
In order to lesson the burden, Spain's king decreed that all single
Spanish soldiers find a native Taino woman and make her his wife, and
have as many children as possible.
This was decreed in order to grow the population of "Spanish" in the
colonies without requiring more immigrants from Spain.
I'm sure to some this makes no sense, but according to the customs
back then, children were expected to take ttheir Father's loyalties.
So children fathered by Spanish soldiers with Taino women would be
considered loyal to Spain.
It was also expected that the end result would be to populate Puerto
Rico with a homegrown population from which Spain could draw troops to fend off
the English and French attempts to take Puerto Rico for
themselves, as they did eventually take Jamaica. Based on historical records, this turned into reality as Puerto Rico was left to fend off
English and French attempts to take it, virtually unaided by Spain,
and always after it remained ruled by Spain.
This is, from what I understood, is what quickly caused the
dissappearance of the "full-blooded" Taino people. It was not desease
or slavery, or displacement by African slaves.
For the book went on to state, prior to the decree, Tainos perservered for over
a century in the rugged mountains that make up most of Puerto Rico. Only in the
much smaller coastal area were the Taino quickly eliminated.
This seems a viable proposition considering the "advanced policies" of colonial
Spain vs. a vs. the English and French. The Spanish rulers apparently were the
ONLY European power of the 5 (England, France, Dutch and Swedes) who considered
natives to be human, rather than animals.
This seems paultry and idiotic by today's standards, but back then it
was a tremendous departure from the norm. In terms of "human rights"
it was a huge step forward, and one completely neglected in history
books written with the Anglo point of view.
Because Spain thought the natives were "human beings with souls" they
didn't have a "national policy" of eradication like England and France the
eventual rulers of N. America.
This is the main reason why the population of Native inhabitants in
Latin America is so large relative to the population in the USA and
Canada.
I realize on the local level was generally far different than the
policy. However "proof" that such a policy existed is easy to find.
That policy is the reason why Colon was stripped of his titles and
brought back in chains to Spain to face justice. It was also the
reason why the "conqueror of the Incas" was similarly brought back to
Spain and imprisoned instead of getting a hero's welcome.
Of course I digress, and all of that is part of the "black legend" the
successful propaganda war England and France waged against the waning power
Spain to justify their own far worse ruthless and bloodthirsty stealing of
native inhabitant's lands, and eventually the wholesale slaughters numbering in
the 10s of millions over decades.
In regards to today and the Taino, I will never understand how noted
Anthropologists so glibly declare there are no more Taino left in
Puerto Rico. Yet these same Anthropologists don't question the existence of
"tribes in the United States" consisting of people who don't have a trace of
"native elements" in how they look act, or speak.
Whereas in Puerto Rico, the Taino look is everywhere, but people seem
blind to it.
Photos of my Mother's family look so purely Taino it's hard to
believe. Ironically only my Mother and a few sisters out of 17
children looked European. All the others looked classic native
American in every way. My grandmother looks full-blooded, though I'm
sure she wasn't.
The same goes for my father's family. Their Taino traits stand out
like flashing lights and overwhelm their Spanish traits. My paternal
grandmother also looks like a pure-blood. Though I'm sure she wasn't
either.
What is so totally wrong about this in my view is in the United
States, anyone with 1/8 Indian blood is considered an "Indian." Many
of these people, look purely European though, and show absolutely no
trace of "Native features."
In Puerto Rico, especially in the home towns of my parents, San
Lorenzo, and Penuelas, Indian features are dominant, and clearly the
majority of people have far more than 1/8 Indian heritage. Yet, they
are not considered Taino.
In the United States, many of those who have been declared Indians, do not
practice their culture or speak the original native language. They are totally
assimilated, but are still able to claim their are Indians.
I find this contrast very odd considering that Puerto Ricans in
general pepper their Spanish with Taino words and my mother has shared some
legends with me long ago, that are clearly Tiano in origin. Over the years, the
things she'd relate to me about her Mother indicated she retained a lot of Taino
culture, even though she spoke Spanish, but did she really?
The accent my Mother's family has on their Spanish is very distinct
from San Juan. It is a mountain accent, and I bet you anything, proper research
would find the reason for its distinctiveness is the Taino language and how it
was spoken.
If you ever want to point out the "Indian influences" on the "modern
Puerto Rican face" to someone who doubts that Taino blood runs still
runs strong, all one has to do is show them a picture of Jennifer Lopez.
Her hair is the classic dark, straight thick Taino hair. Her nose is
the classic Taino nose. Her red-highlighted skin reflects the
"red-toned" skin of the brown Tainos. She in fact looks more "Taino"
than anything else, but because so many people are totally ignorant of specific
"Taino" features, they just call her exotic.
The "skin tone" of so many Puerto Ricans often has that "red-tone." It is the
origin of the racist term "red-skin." Though today people think that "redskins"
looked like a very badly sunburned anglo, rather than a brown skinned person
with strong red highlights.
Anyway I just thought I'd share my thoughts.
Oh by the way, does anyone keep track of the Taino people of Eastern
Cuba? Apparently in yet another example of racism Cuban intellectuals
claims that no Tainos existed in Cuba are very false. There too
though, the Tainos speak Spanish, but that seems to be the limit of
their compromise with Cuba in general. In so many other ways in their
daily lives, they practice Taino customs, rituals and use Taino
everyday tools to fish Etc.
In the history books we got at school on Curacao,they said that the last Arawak Indian died in the 17th century.But my great grand mother's father was half Indian and half European.My great grandmother and her siblings looked like Indians,the youngest child looked 100 % Indian.I saw her.She lived to be 105.She was dark skinned and had straight long jet black hair.People assumed that she was so dark because of her African blood.But she had Indian fetaures.Their mother was dark skinned I supppose she had African blood,but their family were not slaves.They were civilized Indians meaning that they could read and write.On my island Curacao there's a singer whose name is Taino.I didn't know that Taino was an Indian tribe.If you look at him you'll see that he looks a lot like the singer Chayanne from PR.I understand that Chayanne also has Indian blood?Taino is darker than Chayanne.Taino was living for a time in the Dominican Republic and the Dominicans were amazed at how someone from Curacao could look so like an Indian.I don't know what Taino's ancestry may be,but he looks like an Indian.I don't if there are dark skinned Indians but my great great aunt didn't look a Garifuna.She had the nose the chin the forehead everything,only her skin was dark.Even her grandchildren look like Indians.
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 {Posts: 119 } Location: Somewhere...
Posted: Mon 14 Aug 2006 18:30 Post subject:
Interesting read. There is so much conflicting information about the Taino people and the First Nations of the Caribbean in general. But there are many descendants of Amerindians in the region, whether having noticeable features or not...
Last edited by divana on Mon 14 Aug 2006 18:31; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Mon 14 Aug 2006 19:01 Post subject: History books
werta wrote:
In the history books we got at school on Curacao,they said that the last Arawak Indian died in the 17th century.But my great grand mother's father was half Indian and half European.My great grandmother and her siblings looked like Indians,the youngest child looked 100 % Indian.I saw her.She lived to be 105.She was dark skinned and had straight long jet black hair.People assumed that she was so dark because of her African blood.But she had Indian fetaures.Their mother was dark skinned I supppose she had African blood,but their family were not slaves.
Many "pure" natives have a medium dark cooper-colored skin.
Quote:
They were civilized Indians meaning that they could read and write.On my island Curacao there's a singer whose name is Taino.I didn't know that Taino was an Indian tribe.If you look at him you'll see that he looks a lot like the singer Chayanne from PR.I understand that Chayanne also has Indian blood?
Chayanne have the looks of an average mestizo: half Indigenous and half European.
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Taino is darker than Chayanne.Taino was living for a time in the Dominican Republic and the Dominicans were amazed at how someone from Curacao could look so like an Indian.I don't know what Taino's ancestry may be,but he looks like an Indian.I don't if there are dark skinned Indians but my great great aunt didn't look a Garifuna.She had the nose the chin the forehead everything,only her skin was dark.Even her grandchildren look like Indians.
That's fascinating. I have also noticed that some Cubans have an Indian look as well. I know it, because Native Americans and mixed descendents are quite common in South America, much more than in North America or the U.S., so it is a familiar look.
Many men of Curacao immigrated to Cuba during the early 1900's to help on the planatations.Some came back,many didn't.They stayed there and started their familis.My great grandmother's brother was one of those men.Many years later he went to Venezuela.But in my family there is some Cuban blood as well.
Yes,he is Taino the singer from Curacao.He sings in Spanish because that is the language everybody grows up with on Curacao.We speak Papiamento at home but we watch tv in Spanish and we can also listen to the radio in Spanish.That's because we are near Venezuela and we can receive their tv and radio signals.You don't need to have cable to get those signals and those signals are free.Because we had only one local tv station that started with it's broadcasting at 5 in the afternoon you just had to watch the Venezuelan channels.Those channels broadcast nearly everything that is available on the Latin Market.We watch Venezuelan,Mexican,Colombian telenovelas.We watch cartoons in Spanish.Movies in Spanish.Variety shows in Spanish.We even watch Sabado Gigante with Don Fransisco and he's from Chile.I've seen people from Chile on Sabado Gigante.We can also speak Dutch since that what you get at school and we can also speak English because the local tv station transmits programs in English also and we listen to American pop music,hip hop rap etc.
As to the cultures of the Tainos on Curacao I believe we still have a little of their culture in our culture.I think that what the Tainos called corn bread is our funchi with which we ate black eyed peas,lima beans and red beans.Some times we still eat them,but when my mother was a kid that was what everyone ate.Everybody had a little farm in their back yard where they planted maishi(corn),all types of beans,vegetables and fruits.Men and boys went hunting and fishing.They mostly hunted iguanas.And we made iguana soup.The iguanas are still hunted and iguana soup is still eaten.A few years ago an original tribe from the Amazon visited Curacao.They went to the Parliament to meet the our representives.They had a translator with them who was Indian and translated into Spanish.They even performed some of their rituals and gave the a member of the parliament a chain of shells.They were so happy that Curacao had received them so well.They went to the Hato caves to see the figures the Taino or Arawak Indians had carved in the caves.They even went to other sites we didn't know were Indians sites.They stayed for months on Curacao.I don't know if they went back.
Maybe some of our other costums are also from the Tainos.I don't know.They're not documented.I have read on the Internet about a man named John Quirindongo from Puerto Rico who was looking for his family on Curacao.He believes that his last name is derived from the Arawaks language.You also write it Kirindongo,but you pronounce it like Quirindongo.He believes that the Spanish changed the name Kirindongo or Kierindongo to Quirindongo.On Curacao there's a place named Kirindongo and is divided in Kirindongo Abou(below,abajo in Spanish)and Kirindongo Ariba(above,arriba in Spanish).He says his ancestors came from Curacao.As for Taino's looks,there are a lot of people who look like him but most people are African looking although not like the other people of the English Caribbean.They have a distinctive look nor do we look like Latinos.There are some people who look like. the Aborigines of Australia.The granddaughter of my great grandmother's sister looks just like the actress Q"Orianka Kilcher from the movie The New World.And she has a friend whose greatfather was a full blooded Indian,who also looks like this actress.But they don't have her hair.Her friend's last name is Suarez.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Tue 15 Aug 2006 12:47 Post subject: Tainos
werta wrote:
Yes,he is Taino the singer from Curacao.He sings in Spanish because that is the language everybody grows up with on Curacao.We speak Papiamento at home but we watch tv in Spanish and we can also listen to the radio in Spanish.That's because we are near Venezuela and we can receive their tv and radio signals.You don't need to have cable to get those signals and those signals are free.Because we had only one local tv station that started with it's broadcasting at 5 in the afternoon you just had to watch the Venezuelan channels.
Oh my lord!
You have to stand Venevision all day long.
Perhaps even some speach of Chavez once in a while
Just kidding.
By the way, I got the impression from here that Venezuelans and peoples of the non-Hispanic Caribbean close to them, are very good fellows. Am I wrong?
Quote:
Those channels broadcast nearly everything that is available on the Latin Market.We watch Venezuelan,Mexican,Colombian telenovelas.We watch cartoons in Spanish.Movies in Spanish.Variety shows in Spanish.We even watch Sabado Gigante with Don Fransisco and he's from Chile.I've seen people from Chile on Sabado Gigante.
Don Francisco (Mario Kreutzberger) is an icon in Chile, not only for its work on TV but also because its Teleton campain to help handicaped children. He is Chilean of Jewish-German parents that migrated to Chile in the half of the 20th century. An extraordinary man, indeed.
Quote:
We can also speak Dutch since that what you get at school and we can also speak English because the local tv station transmits programs in English also and we listen to American pop music,hip hop rap etc.
That's fascinating. You have the opportunity to grow up speaking 4 languages, which should be an advantage at work.
Quote:
As to the cultures of the Tainos on Curacao I believe we still have a little of their culture in our culture.I think that what the Tainos called corn bread is our funchi with which we ate black eyed peas,lima beans and red beans.Some times we still eat them,but when my mother was a kid that was what everyone ate.Everybody had a little farm in their back yard where they planted maishi(corn),all types of beans,vegetables and fruits.
Yes. Corn and bean recipes are usually of Amerindian root. Do you eat corn in the cob, prepared like tamales, mashed and cooked in pots or like tortillas? That's interesting because knowing that you can trace the origin of the traditions.
Quote:
Men and boys went hunting and fishing.They mostly hunted iguanas.And we made iguana soup.The iguanas are still hunted and iguana soup is still eaten.
That's quite common in Central America as well. I believe that it might taste like fish or chicken. Are serpents part of the food as well? I ask because they are common in certain places of northern South America and perhaps in Central America as well.
Quote:
A few years ago an original tribe from the Amazon visited Curacao.They went to the Parliament to meet the our representives.They had a translator with them who was Indian and translated into Spanish.They even performed some of their rituals and gave the a member of the parliament a chain of shells.They were so happy that Curacao had received them so well.They went to the Hato caves to see the figures the Taino or Arawak Indians had carved in the caves.They even went to other sites we didn't know were Indians sites.They stayed for months on Curacao.I don't know if they went back.
That's interesting too. Scientiests have traced the origin of the Tainos to the Amazon. Perhaps the tribes of Venezuela are very close to the way ancient Tainos were.
Quote:
Maybe some of our other costums are also from the Tainos.I don't know.They're not documented.I have read on the Internet about a man named John Quirindongo from Puerto Rico who was looking for his family on Curacao.He believes that his last name is derived from the Arawaks language.You also write it Kirindongo,but you pronounce it like Quirindongo.He believes that the Spanish changed the name Kirindongo or Kierindongo to Quirindongo.
Spaniards usually distorted names. I don't believe it was intentional but just a bad ear. They heared "Laf-tra-ru" for instance and wrote "Lautaro", "Biru" and wrote "Peru", "Aucan" and wrote "Araucan". Etc. That was common.
Quote:
On Curacao there's a place named Kirindongo and is divided in Kirindongo Abou(below,abajo in Spanish)and Kirindongo Ariba(above,arriba in Spanish).He says his ancestors came from Curacao.As for Taino's looks,there are a lot of people who look like him but most people are African looking although not like the other people of the English Caribbean.They have a distinctive look nor do we look like Latinos.There are some people who look like. the Aborigines of Australia.The granddaughter of my great grandmother's sister looks just like the actress Q"Orianka Kilcher from the movie The New World.
Do you mean people of Curazao (Spanish spelling. I don got the "C" with the hook bellow it in my keyboard ) are really Sambos (Afro-Indigenous people) rather that mainly Black like most people in the English Carabbean?
Quote:
And she has a friend whose greatfather was a full blooded Indian,who also looks like this actress.But they don't have her hair.Her friend's last name is Suarez.
That's quite interesting Werta. You have to show pictures of Curazao and its people. And of your traditional foods as well.
[I edited this post to make the photos show up. When werta gets a chance, you should open up the post in edit mode to see the correct format. Also, there were a couple of tiny misspellings in the image names, probably because they were typed by hand. It is best to copy and past photo names. -- fwsweet]
Joined: 02 May 2006 {Posts: 444 } Location: Īle-de-France
Posted: Wed 16 Aug 2006 17:43 Post subject:
I realize this is not a scholarly artice, but I think the author of this article mixes fact with his own conclusions for his own purposes, and I feel compelled to point out how.
Quote:
The Spanish rulers apparently were the
ONLY European power of the 5 (England, France, Dutch and Swedes) who considered natives to be human, rather than animals....Because Spain thought the natives were "human beings with souls" they
didn't have a "national policy" of eradication like England and France the
eventual rulers of N. America.
I have not seen any evidence for this proposition. This proposition would mean that all the french fur traders who took native wives were considered by their country to be practicing beastiality. As was pocahontas's husband. Both the British and the French tried with some sucess to "christianize" the natives. Pointless if you believe that they have no souls. And the policy of the United States has historically been assimilation first, and containment and displacement, not eradication.
Quote:
This is the main reason why the population of Native inhabitants in
Latin America is so large relative to the population in the USA and
Canada.
I think that the difference in current indigenous population stems more from demographics at the time of colonization than difference in the policies of the various colonizing powers. There were simply many more people in the tropics than there were in cold, temperate North America, because hunting gathering and simple agriculture supports more people in the tropics. This is further supported by the fact that the two major civilizations in the americas at the time of conquest were in the tropics.
Quote:
In regards to today and the Taino, I will never understand how noted Anthropologists so glibly declare there are no more Taino left in
Puerto Rico. Yet these same Anthropologists don't question the existence of "tribes in the United States" consisting of people who don't have a trace of "native elements" in how they look act, or speak.
Noted antropologists declare this because as just stated, they were assimilated into the general population in the 17th century--some 300-400 years ago. While in the U.S., many recognized indian tribes live on reservations and are not assimilated into mainstream U.S. society whatsoever. There are some people in the U.S. who have partial native ancestry and decide that they want to focus on that. The author should go to Pine Ridge in South Dakota, or the Crow reservation in Montana, and see if the people "don't have a trace of "native elements" in how they look, act or speak."
Quote:
Photos of my Mother's family look so purely Taino it's hard to
believe. Ironically only my Mother and a few sisters out of 17
children looked European. All the others looked classic native
American in every way. My grandmother looks full-blooded, though I'm
sure she wasn't.
I wonder how the author knows what a pure taino looks like, given they were generally assimilated in the 17th century. Do they look like the Yanomami? Or more like the Kogi? I agree that there are plenty of taino genes in the puerto rican population but given an admitted lack of pure tainos, how does one know if someone looks "purely taino"
The author, who has obvioulsy lived in the U.S. for a while seems to want to apply a sort of indian one drop rule to Puerto Ricans, making Puerto Ricans all Indians.
Quote:
The "skin tone" of so many Puerto Ricans often has that "red-tone." It is the origin of the racist term "red-skin." Though today people think that "redskins" looked like a very badly sunburned anglo, rather than a brown skinned person with strong red highlights.
I'm not sure, but I think he is referring to the way someone with a light brown complection gets when they have recieved lots of sun exposure...I would like to see "a brown skinned person with strong red highlights" if any one has an example.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Wed 16 Aug 2006 19:02 Post subject:
MisterLawyer wrote:
I realize this is not a scholarly artice, but I think the author of this article mixes fact with his own conclusions for his own purposes, and I feel compelled to point out how.
Quote:
The Spanish rulers apparently were the
ONLY European power of the 5 (England, France, Dutch and Swedes) who considered natives to be human, rather than animals....Because Spain thought the natives were "human beings with souls" they
didn't have a "national policy" of eradication like England and France the
eventual rulers of N. America.
I have not seen any evidence for this proposition. This proposition would mean that all the french fur traders who took native wives were considered by their country to be practicing beastiality. As was pocahontas's husband.
Actually, the experience of Spaniards with the Native Americans was similar to the French fur trade, and also to the very isolated case of Pocahontas.
Quote:
Both the British and the French tried with some sucess to "christianize" the natives. Pointless if you believe that they have no souls. And the policy of the United States has historically been assimilation first, and containment and displacement, not eradication.
Would you believe me I have found any evidence of Brits or Dutch wanting to confraternize and mix with Native Americans whatsoever?
Yes, some legend exists, but in most cases the mixed individuals were considered Natives or "half-breed" rather than "British".
I would like to have access to documentation about how many Native Americas assimilated to the settlers. Besides Pocahontas, of course.
Quote:
Quote:
This is the main reason why the population of Native inhabitants in
Latin America is so large relative to the population in the USA and
Canada.
I think that the difference in current indigenous population stems more from demographics at the time of colonization than difference in the policies of the various colonizing powers. There were simply many more people in the tropics than there were in cold, temperate North America, because hunting gathering and simple agriculture supports more people in the tropics. This is further supported by the fact that the two major civilizations in the americas at the time of conquest were in the tropics.
I don't agree. The Native population in southern Argentina and Chile was large, and that was not precisely the "tropics". The low density of Natives in the Caribbean and the U.S. is always used as evidence of genocide, although matters are not so clear, so far.
Quote:
I wonder how the author knows what a pure taino looks like, given they were generally assimilated in the 17th century. Do they look like the Yanomami? Or more like the Kogi? I agree that there are plenty of taino genes in the puerto rican population but given an admitted lack of pure tainos, how does one know if someone looks "purely taino"
The Tainos came from northern South America, so the Yanomami is close enough.
Quote:
The author, who has obvioulsy lived in the U.S. for a while seems to want to apply a sort of indian one drop rule to Puerto Ricans, making Puerto Ricans all Indians.
Some Puerto Ricans "look" Indian, actually. Having Known close enough Indian peoples like the Quechuas, Mapuches or Cree, it is easy to see it.
Quote:
I'm not sure, but I think he is referring to the way someone with a light brown complection gets when they have recieved lots of sun exposure...I would like to see "a brown skinned person with strong red highlights" if any one has an example.
The cooper colored skin is not a myth. You can pick two individuals of the same "shade of brown". One of mixed Euro-Indian ancestry, and one of mixed Euro-African ancestry, and the skins don't look the same.
Posted: Wed 16 Aug 2006 19:13 Post subject: Re: Tainos
oevega wrote:
That's interesting too. Scientiests have traced the origin of the Tainos to the Amazon. Perhaps the tribes of Venezuela are very close to the way ancient Tainos were.
Joined: 04 May 2005 {Posts: 2021 } Location: santiago, chile
Posted: Wed 16 Aug 2006 20:46 Post subject: Re: Tainos
Salsassin wrote:
oevega wrote:
That's interesting too. Scientiests have traced the origin of the Tainos to the Amazon. Perhaps the tribes of Venezuela are very close to the way ancient Tainos were.
Told you that before, and you argued with me.
I don't get it Jaime. What did I say before that's different from the above?
Tainos came from Northern South America, and colonized the Caribbean island by island. That's what archeologists have shown.
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) are really Sambos (Afro-Indigenous people) rather that mainly Black like most people in the English Carabbean?
Told you that before, and you argued with me.
