Posted: Thu 09 Nov 2006 07:11 Post subject: How is the term 'monoracial black' defined?
Hi, All!
I am new to the boards and. From reading some of the posts, I have noticed that the term 'monoracial black' has often been used to refer to some human beings as a group. To better understand, I would like to know if someone can explain to me how this term is defined on ODR or amongst some of the board members. How is a person classified as monoracially black?
I refer to that as someone who is non mixed someone who has no known mixed ancestry... This is something we(I) judge visually as well, even though I know in the 1700's someones family may have started out with a African and a Navajo
Personally, I have never used the term "monoracial" in my writing. But when I see it used, I interpret it to mean someone who chooses to self-identify only with their African ancestry and downplays their Euro, Asian, or Amerind ancestries. The term has never been used in any of the forums in the "Technical and Scholarly" section, probably because it is biologically, genetically, and historically meaningless.
From what I have seen this term is used to refer to people of African descent who don't show enough admixture for the poster to acknowledge them as "mixed" or "multiracial." As you can imagine, the application of the term is completely subjective and is no indication of actual admixture levels or mixed ancestry.
Posted: Wed 15 Nov 2006 18:56 Post subject: Re: How is the term 'monoracial black' defined?
Nikki wrote:
I am new to the boards and. From reading some of the posts, I have noticed that the term 'monoracial black' has often been used to refer to some human beings as a group. To better understand, I would like to know if someone can explain to me how this term is defined on ODR or amongst some of the board members. How is a person classified as monoracially black?
Many thanks.
Its not officially defined.
But I use it to mean a person that is not of mixed race/ethnicity; the opposite of "biracial".
fsweet wrote:
But when I see it used, I interpret it to mean someone who chooses to self-identify only with their African ancestry and downplays their Euro, Asian, or Amerind ancestries.
...a monoracial person generally has nothing that they could deny or "downplay" in the first place, and arent making any "choice" but rather just calling themselves what they are.
Posted: Wed 15 Nov 2006 19:04 Post subject: Re: How is the term 'monoracial black' defined?
Phil345 wrote:
...a monoracial person generally has nothing that they could deny or "downplay" in the first place, and arent making any "choice" but rather just calling themselves what they are.
No choice? What they are? The above starement makes sense only if Phil345 has some objective way of determining what ethnicity someone "really is" apart from their expressed choice. If so, he should share it with the rest of humanity, since it would overturn everything that we know about ethnic self-identity. If not, the statement is nonsensical.
Posted: Wed 15 Nov 2006 20:37 Post subject: Re: How is the term 'monoracial black' defined?
fwsweet wrote:
No choice? What they are? The above starement makes sense only if Phil345 has some objective way of determining what ethnicity someone "really is" apart from their expressed choice.
Sweet, you make all kinds of judgements of monoracial people, saying that they are "downplaying" parts of their ancestry. This is based on your assumption, that everybody has actual knowledge of multi-racial ancestry that they are choosing to deny. I was merely pointing out that this is not the case, and self identity for monoracial people is objective and not something they choose.
Racial/ethnic identity is only a subjective choice for bi/muti-racial people; they can "choose" an identity, but "monoraical" people have nothing to choose from because they are only part of one racial/ethnic group.
For example would, you say that George Bush "chooses" to idetitfy himself white?...as if there was a point in his life where he made a decision to be white? That would be ridiculous; G.W and other single-race people make no such choice, and arent "downplaying" any part of themselves.
Posted: Wed 15 Nov 2006 21:12 Post subject: Re: How is the term 'monoracial black' defined?
Phil345 wrote:
This is based on your assumption, that everybody has actual knowledge of multi-racial ancestry that they are choosing to deny.
I make no such assumption, any more than I assume that a Catholic is aware that he has non-Catholic ancestry. Ancestry-aware or not, being a member of the Catholic Church, like being a member of the Black community, is a person's choice. It may be a subconscious, automatic, unquestioned choice imposed by his upbringing. But it is a choice nonetheless.
Phil345 wrote:
self identity for monoracial people is objective and not something they choose.
First, Phil345 is clearly uninformed as to the denotation of objective. It means a criterion or measurement that anyone, especially a skeptic, can make and get the same result as you. Phil345 has no such criterion. Second, it is precisely the meaning of "monoracial" that is being discussed. The above claim boils down to "monoracial means anyone who is monoracial." This is silly.
Phil345 wrote:
Racial/ethnic identity is only a subjective choice for bi/muti-racial people; they can "choose" an identity, but "monoraical" people have nothing to choose from because they are only part of one racial/ethnic group.
Why? What compulsion is so overwhelming that someone cannot freely choose to say, "I think I'll be Afro-Hispanic today, or West Indian"? Phil345 seems to be suggesting that people lack free will, or that if they exercise free will, lighting will strike them dead. Ridiculous.
Phil345 wrote:
For example would, you say that George Bush "chooses" to identify himself white?...as if there was a point in his life where he made a decision to be white?
No. "White" is a label applied by others to people who self-identify as German-American, Irish-American, Anglo-American, etc. Less than one American in 150 chooses "White" as his/her ethnic heritage when given an open choice. This is fewer than those who claim to be Puerto Ricans or Slovacs. In Phil345's eyes, he may be White. But in his eyes, he is Anglo-German (or whatever). Phil345 imposes an involuntary label on others and argues that his target has no choice in the matter.
Phil345 wrote:
single-race people make no such choice
What, precisely, does Phil345 mean by "single-race people"? What earthly yardstick can I use to measure whether someone is a "single-race" person? Give me a break! Seriously, without a way of detecting such a creature, the above statement is no different than saying that unicorns eat tree leaves on odd-numbered Thursdays. It is empty of verifiable content, a mere waste of bandwidth.
Posted: Wed 15 Nov 2006 23:00 Post subject: Re: How is the term 'monoracial black' defined?
fwsweet wrote:
Phil345 wrote:
This is based on your assumption, that everybody has actual knowledge of multi-racial ancestry that they are choosing to deny.
I make no such assumption, any more than I assume that a Catholic is aware that he has non-Catholic ancestry.
You made the judgement that "monoracial" people are "downplaying" their multi-racial ancestry and identifying as single race in spite of it. This is based on your assumption, that those persons have knowlege of multi-racial ancestry that they are conciously choosing to deny, since a person cannot "downplay" or deny something that they have no knowledge of. Theres no way around that; you assume.
Quote:
Ancestry-aware or not, being a member of the Catholic Church, like being a member of the Black community, is a person's choice. It may be a subconscious, automatic, unquestioned choice imposed by his upbringing. But it is a choice nonetheless.
I guess technically ethnic identify is utlimately a choice, just like I could one day choose to call myself chinese or hopi indian if I wanted to - and would have that right. But what I meant was that most people, who identify as one race, do so because thats what they genuinely think they are, and are not making any kind of choice.
Its not a "choice", in the same manner a multi-racial person who has a mixed family upbringing, may choose to identify as a single race for some ulterior motive/reasoning (i.e Halle Berry), even though he/she knows that they are actually mixed. "Monoracial" people (or whatever you call them), dont have multi-faceted families, and different sides that they could choose from; they just call themselves what they believe to represent the entirety of their heritage with no ambiguity involved. Its profoundly different.
Quote:
Phil345 seems to be suggesting that people lack free will, or that if they exercise free will, lighting will strike them dead. Ridiculous.
I'm not suggesting that people dont have free will, what i'm saying is that people arent choosing to identify as one race (as if there there were a catalog of different races/ethnicities in their family that they had to pick from), but rather just calling themselves what they know themselves and their family to be.
Last edited by Phil345 on Wed 15 Nov 2006 23:53; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Wed 15 Nov 2006 23:23 Post subject: Re: How is the term 'monoracial black' defined?
Phil345 wrote:
fwsweet wrote:
No choice? What they are? The above starement makes sense only if Phil345 has some objective way of determining what ethnicity someone "really is" apart from their expressed choice.
... [S]elf identity for monoracial people is objective and not something they choose.
Racial/ethnic identity is only a subjective choice for bi/muti-racial people; they can "choose" an identity, but "monoraical" people have nothing to choose from because they are only part of one racial/ethnic group.
I think Phil345 is saying that U.S. society is sensitized (trained, basically) to recognize census "races." People fitting the recognized phenotypes (stereotypes) find themselves consistently presumed members of one census "race" (i.e., "monoracial"). Their rebutting this presumption sets them a constant task of explaining that they are not what they appear to be.
Phil345's observation jibes with my argument with Triguy (et al.), that the My Shoes project of Dr. Juanita Brooks appears to make tragic Mulattos of "white" people told there to stubbornly identify by their invisible "colored" blood. I am told (e.g., by Triguy, Sagascend) that "white" people failing to spurn "white privilege" the My Shoes way are sellouts to their "colored blood." I counter that "white privilege" is better spread than spurned. The beigeing that "white" is undergoing with growing multiracial acceptance will bridge these stark islands of privilege and its opposite, which we now have with census-defined "monoracials."
Racial blending in the U.S. doubtless is a natural biological phenomenon that will not be stopped. The eugenic Jim Crow Terror legislators of circa 1900 clearly saw it coming. Racial segregation's purpose was to head off this natural result of "races" contacting, especially as social equals. (E.g., see tracts by Walter Plecker.) Eugenic "anti-amalgamation" "race"-theory has been substituted with Affirmative Action theory -- endebting a "privileged" "white race" with a reparations obligation to "level the playing field." Moreover, an "empowered" "monoracial"-identity political landscape has grown up from the Gomillion v. Lightfoot, 364 U.S. 339 (1960) decision stimulating "majority minority" census gerrymander-districting, which is forbidden to "whites." From this turn-about, the Jim Crow methods of "race"-management are now useful to Black identity politics (et al.). The "one drop rule" still purifies a thoroughbred "white race." And, of course the ODR sweepingly defines "black" as "any blood." The government's OMB applies hypodescent more widely than in times of slavery. Using all these inherently Balkanizing tools the problem profiteers of census "minorities" strive to lengthen the U.S. era of racialism by re-training the public to recognize "monoraces." "Black" people are taught to convert to Islam, and to supplement their identity with mannerisms of speech, dress, behavior, and even musical taste. (To call it all "black culture.") As the "monoracial" phenotypes fade their distinctiveness is followed with more penetrating "eyeballing," and with various methods of proclaimed "monoracial minority" identity. I suspect this is where My Shoes and HIF and SWIRL and their ilk come in.
George
Posted: Thu 16 Nov 2006 00:40 Post subject: Re: How is the term 'monoracial black' defined?
Phil345 wrote:
You made the judgement that "monoracial" people are "downplaying" their multi-racial ancestry and identifying as single race in spite of it.
Correct.
Phil345 wrote:
This is based on your assumption, that those persons have knowlege of multi-racial ancestry that they are conciously choosing to deny, since a person cannot "downplay" or deny something that they have no knowledge of.
Incorrect.
There is no connection between ethnic self-identity and biological ancestry. Knowledge (or ignorance) of one does not force the other. Apparently, Phil345 sincerely believes that ethnicity is genetically inherited, that you cannot chose an ethnicity (or multiple ethnicities) unless you biologically descend from that ethnicity. This is nonsense. It has been known to be nonsense for well over a century.
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 {Posts: 110 } Location: chicago
Posted: Thu 16 Nov 2006 18:59 Post subject: Re: How is the term 'monoracial black' defined?
Nikki wrote:
Hi, All!
I am new to the boards and. From reading some of the posts, I have noticed that the term 'monoracial black' has often been used to refer to some human beings as a group. To better understand, I would like to know if someone can explain to me how this term is defined on ODR or amongst some of the board members. How is a person classified as monoracially black?
Many thanks.
mono means one.. so a monoracial black is a person who is 100% african nubian descent.
Posted: Thu 16 Nov 2006 19:17 Post subject: Re: How is the term 'monoracial black' defined?
machito wrote:
Nikki wrote:
Hi, All!
I am new to the boards and. From reading some of the posts, I have noticed that the term 'monoracial black' has often been used to refer to some human beings as a group. To better understand, I would like to know if someone can explain to me how this term is defined on ODR or amongst some of the board members. How is a person classified as monoracially black?
Many thanks.
mono means one.. so a monoracial black is a person who is 100% african nubian descent.
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 {Posts: 110 } Location: chicago
Posted: Thu 16 Nov 2006 20:20 Post subject: Re: How is the term 'monoracial black' defined?
sagascend wrote:
machito wrote:
Nikki wrote:
Hi, All!
I am new to the boards and. From reading some of the posts, I have noticed that the term 'monoracial black' has often been used to refer to some human beings as a group. To better understand, I would like to know if someone can explain to me how this term is defined on ODR or amongst some of the board members. How is a person classified as monoracially black?
Many thanks.
mono means one.. so a monoracial black is a person who is 100% african nubian descent.
Posted: Thu 16 Nov 2006 20:26 Post subject: Re: How is the term 'monoracial black' defined?
machito wrote:
sagascend wrote:
machito wrote:
Nikki wrote:
Hi, All!
I am new to the boards and. From reading some of the posts, I have noticed that the term 'monoracial black' has often been used to refer to some human beings as a group. To better understand, I would like to know if someone can explain to me how this term is defined on ODR or amongst some of the board members. How is a person classified as monoracially black?
Many thanks.
mono means one.. so a monoracial black is a person who is 100% african nubian descent.
All 50,000 of them? lol
just curious.. what you mean by 50,000 ?
I was being facetious because how many Black people do you think are 100% African descent? Most are not, as most White people are not 100% of European descent. Plus Nubian is an African ethnicity/former nationality...East African I believe but I'm not sure.
Posted: Thu 16 Nov 2006 21:05 Post subject: Re: How is the term 'monoracial black' defined?
fwsweet wrote:
Phil345 wrote:
You made the judgement that "monoracial" people are "downplaying" their multi-racial ancestry and identifying as single race in spite of it.
Correct.
Phil345 wrote:
This is based on your assumption, that those persons have knowlege of multi-racial ancestry that they are conciously choosing to deny, since a person cannot "downplay" or deny something that they have no knowledge of.
Incorrect.
No Sweet, you cant have it both ways. If you acknowledge that statement one is correct, it logically follows that the second one is also. You judge that people are "downplaying" parts of themselves, which is a deliberate action. To make that judgement, you MUST make the assumption that they have knowledge of these ancestors that they are supposedly "downplaying". A person can not deny or "downplay" something that they are not aware of.
Quote:
Knowledge (or ignorance) of one does not force the other.
This discussion is about the reasoning and/or motivations that people have for identifying as one race. You stated that people (specifically black identified people), identify as one race because they wish to "downplay" the other parts of their ancestry. This is a judgment of their motivations, based on the assumptions that all such persons are aware of having multi-racial ancestry in the fist place.
My opinion is that people arent denying, or "downplaying" anything, nor are they making a 'choice' between their ancestors, but rather are just being very straitforward and identify as one race because thats all they know of.
fsweet understand whats i'm talking about, because he has made this judgement before:
Quote:
Demographically, the largest U.S. socio-political group of mixed Afro-European ancestry are 74 million Americans who check off “White” on the census, sadly ignorant of their own rich heritage. The second-largest group are those who check off “Black,” deliberately turning their backs on the obvious in order to retaliate for what they see as centuries of oppression inflicted by their White ancestors.
....where he contends that persons who identify as white do so because they are innocently unaware of having other ancestors, but black identified people are "deliberately turning their backs" on their ancestors (downplaying), out of some kind of stubborn hate.
I guess in my estimation, in the American societal context, given the historically predominant European and African and Amerindian intermixing, a greater percentage than is documented(I believe) of 'black' and 'white' Americans with ancestry dating back to the time of slavery and the settling of this country have varying degrees of any of the three in their lineage. In this context, in my opinion, monoracial black is subjective: how society has determined a person's identity for what I believe are based on predominate physical features. I don't think that there is anything wrong with one identifying with or others classifyng one as a monoracial black but believe that the term is not representative of that person's full ancestry: predominately African, European and Amerindian. Again, I speak this in the American societal context.
I don't think that there is anything wrong with one identifying with or others classifyng one as a monoracial black but believe that the term is not representative of that person's full ancestry: predominately African, European and Amerindian. Again, I speak this in the American societal context.
Well said, that's the crux of the issue for me. People throw that term around based on "eyeballing" whatever person of African descent seems "too African" to possibly be mixed. Until we all walk around with personal genealogies and admixture test results tattooed to our foreheads the practice of applying that term with no equivocation on or displaying consideration of the limitations of one's racialized eyes seems silly to me.
Now if one defines "monoracial Black" on ancestral or ethnic terms, anyone from Vaness Williams to T.D. Jakes is monoracially Black.
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 {Posts: 110 } Location: chicago
Posted: Fri 17 Nov 2006 16:40 Post subject: Re: How is the term 'monoracial black' defined?
sagascend wrote:
machito wrote:
sagascend wrote:
machito wrote:
Nikki wrote:
Hi, All!
I am new to the boards and. From reading some of the posts, I have noticed that the term 'monoracial black' has often been used to refer to some human beings as a group. To better understand, I would like to know if someone can explain to me how this term is defined on ODR or amongst some of the board members. How is a person classified as monoracially black?
Many thanks.
mono means one.. so a monoracial black is a person who is 100% african nubian descent.
All 50,000 of them? lol
just curious.. what you mean by 50,000 ?
I was being facetious because how many Black people do you think are 100% African descent? Most are not, as most White people are not 100% of European descent. Plus Nubian is an African ethnicity/former nationality...East African I believe but I'm not sure.
Monoracial is a subjective term.
can you provide any data that backs up your claim that most black people are not African descent ? I bet if reparations for slavery existed African descent will be claimed as fast as lightning ..
'
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